Did the earth BECOME formless and void?

[Anto9us]

I am one who thinks there is a GAP between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

There are two reasons I see a GAP here -- one, if God had just finished CREATING something, it would not be "without form and void" -- it would be a finished creation. Two, the later command to REPLENISH the earth -- that presupposes an earlier time when it was "plenished", but then became not so anymore

Here is jazz about the word in Gen 1:2 translated was :


The KJV translates Strong's H1961 in the following manner: was, come to pass, came, has been, were happened, become, pertained, better for thee.
Outline of Biblical Usage H1933); to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):—beacon, × altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, follow, happen, × have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, × use.

---

Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

 

[ViaCrucis]

The earth didn't become formless and void, it was formless and void. In the Hebrew it means something like "formless waste" because God had not yet began the process of creating (in Hebrew, the word used here for "create" is bara, meaning "to shape"). In the beginning when God began to create the heavens and the earth (Gen. 1:1) the earth was a formless waste, and the Spirit of God hovered over the waters of the deep (the primordial ocean). The first word in the Hebrew of Genesis 1:1 is b’reshit, rather than bareshit; effectively an indefinite article rather than a definite article, and which has led many to argue that the best way to render this is prepositionally, "When God began to create" or "In the beginning of God's creating" (this is how medieval Jewish sages and scribes, experts in the Hebrew language, understood it). Though most of us are more familiar with those English translations which were influenced by the Vulgate (notably the KJV and most English translations have largely followed suit rather than breaking with custom).

But what the text is saying is that when God began creating the heavens and the earth, the earth was a formless waste, and there was only the primordial ocean (a common theme in ancient near eastern cosmology, personified in the Babylonian myths as Tiamat). It is precisely this formlessness that God takes and shapes, separating light and dark (day and night), separating waters above and waters below (sea and firmament), and then sea from the dry land; which He then fills with creatures to rule these spaces: sun, moon, and stars to rule day and night, swimming and flying things to rule the sea and air, and then beasts and creeping things to rule the land, ultimately with human beings as the chief creative work commanded to govern and care for it all.

-CryptoLutheran

 

[Anto9us]

Does God require a "process" to create; like, "It's gonna take me some time to shape this formless lump of nothing"? I mean I dunno if I take 6 day creation as literal -- when God created LIGHT he just spoke and it was done, right?

 

[Anto9us]

Transliteration
re'shiyth
Pronunciation
rā·shēth'

b’reshit, rather than bareshit

guffaw -- should be bearshit

I don't know where the b is...

 

[withwonderingawe]

Well you are coming at this from the something from nothing doctrine. Mormons come at it from the idea the rock we call earth was always here, all matter exist and is uncreated.

There was a rock with some H2O on it and God made it fat, that’s what the word bara means in the Hebrew. You have steer and you want to fatten it up before you sell it. Moses gives an opening statement “In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth” and here’s how he did it. He said, let there be light and by this he opened up a closed and void system. Then he added the necessary elements, plants and animals etc.

I don’t know why it is translated ‘replenish’ as I understand it, it means ‘to have wholly’ but I have wondered about it.

We know there was a time of great forest and many animals which were made before mankind, then suddenly they all died off and were buried so that we could have oil and gas. What we don’t know is how much time went by from when those animals were created and when Adam was created and the animals we know today.

Unless you believe in an actual 24 hour day for creating, god can do it as fast as he wants to but there appears to be a process.

 

[Anto9us]

Well you are coming at this from the something from nothing doctrine.

Not me, WWA, I am not a CREATION EX NIHILO proponent, neither 'an actual 24 hour day for creating' subscriber...

what I was trying to lay groundwork for was discussing an idea of Origen's that "the souls of men are fallen spirits"

 

[Anto9us]

I have long been fascinated with a passage from the Lutheran scholar J. L. Neve in his two-volume HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN THOUGHT concerning Origen:

This is Neve explaining what he thought Origen proposed:

"There was a history before history. Since God has been revealing itself from all eternity, the world also is eternal; that is, the world of spirits is eternal, not this visible world. The Mediator in God's creative activity is the Son. The spirits, who He originally created all alike, were created free agents, and their destiny was to be fixed by their own determination."

HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN THOUGHT, Vol I, pp, 87-88

 

[Anto9us]

"But the world of the spirits became the scene of a fall into sin. Some of the spirits did not participate in the fall (such as the soul of Jesus and others), while others did in a greater or lesser degree."

Ibid, p 88

Getting too late now, but I will post more of Neve's understanding of Origen tomorrow

 

[withwonderingawe]

I have long been fascinated with a passage from the Lutheran scholar J. L. Neve in his two-volume HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN THOUGHT concerning Origen:

This is Neve explaining what he thought Origen proposed:

"There was a history before history. Since God has been revealing itself from all eternity, the world also is eternal; that is, the world of spirits is eternal, not this visible world. The Mediator in God's creative activity is the Son. The spirits, who He originally created all alike, were created free agents, and their destiny was to be fixed by their own determination."

HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN THOUGHT, Vol I, pp, 87-88

mmmm almost Mormon

 

[Anto9us]

heh heh

yeah, I KNOW, WWA...

which is why I started this thread in THIS sub-forum rather than Controversial Christian Theology...

I will be interested in how much more of the Lutheran Neve's conception of what Origen thought will be deemed "almost Mormon" by LDS here, I bet some of it will.

"The souls of men, then, are fallen spirits" Ibid., p 88

Well, I am too tired for now, but I see great similarities with Origen's cosmogeny and some of the ideas of LDS as I understand them, and I summarize it myself as

"The Good, the Bad, the Ugly, and the Ugliest" --

in that the equally-created spirits became angels, humans, Demons, and the "Ugliest" were the demons chained for intermingling with the Daughters of Men

it's way out, but plausible, IMO

 

[Anto9us]

Going on with Neve's summation of Origen, and the "fall of the spirits into sin" (which is a 'fall' earlier than what we know as the FALL, i.e., eating of forbidden fruit):

"Their condition in the world of creation was fixed by their abstinence from, or by their participation in, the fall.
The creation, which is recorded in Genesis, was for the purpose of punishment and purification. In the creation the spirits received bodies which corresponded with their merits. Their attitude toward good and evil showed itself even in their external appearance.
On the one hand, there were those who had attained to the heights of goodness; these appear now as diivinities, as thrones, or as stars which are looked upon as living beings.
On the other hand, there were the creatures, namely, Satan, and the devils who fell first and deeper than the others, these appear now as coarse and dark forms.
Between these two classes are the spirits or souls of men in their own form of corporeal being; it was for these that the world was created. Man is to be purified in and through a terrestial life. For this he is endowed with freedom, by the use of which he may attain to the position of the angels.
The souls of men, then, are fallen spirits."

A HISTORY OF CHRISTIAN THOUGHT vol I, J. L. Neve p 88.

 

[Anto9us]

It goes on and on, this summary of Origen by Neve, and it explains some things that many people have questions about (myself included).

One is -- Satan is already existing, already fallen, in the form of the serpent -- in "the beginning", but WHICH BEGINNING is that?

Most people think Satan used to be a "good" angel and then fell, right?

I think Jesus indicated Satan was a murderer and a liar "from the beginning".

Cherubim are already existing, with no mention of how they got there, at the time of the Adamic FALL; they are gaurding the way to the tree of life.

"In the beginning was the Word"

See how many "beginnings" there are?

In one "beginning", Satan is unfallen, in another "beginning" -- he is fallen and the father of lies.

"In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth".

That simple, complete statement is chronologically FIRST in the Bible; it cannot be proven that WHAT WAS MEANT WAS "when God began to create the earth" -- that is re-wording things without warrant.

 

[Anto9us]

I am aware that some WANT to re-word the opening line of the Bible such, and that some say the word REPLENISH should not have been used about Man replenishing the earth, but that is what was written.

 

[Anto9us]

Gen 1:27

So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 1:28

And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

The word REPLENISH is used, it's the same verb used when fishes were supposed to FILL the seas, replenish is a valid translation of it.

And why would the newly-created, just-created earth have to be SUBDUED?

Origen's own writings of this in DE PRINCIPIIS are not easy to follow, well, that's an understatement -- frankly, it's MURDER trying to understand Origen; that's why I was so glad to see the historian Neve summarize it as he saw it.

 

[Anto9us]

Science itself tells us that millions of years went by from the time of the first animals like dinosaurs until Man came along, natural theology gives creedence to the TWO CREATION accounts in Genesis as being allegorical/metaphorical; and I think there is justification in calling them two "re-creation accounts".

"There was a history before history"

 

[Foxfyre]

I am one who thinks there is a GAP between Genesis 1:1 and 1:2

Gen 1:1
In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.

Gen 1:2
And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.

There are two reasons I see a GAP here -- one, if God had just finished CREATING something, it would not be "without form and void" -- it would be a finished creation. Two, the later command to REPLENISH the earth -- that presupposes an earlier time when it was "plenished", but then became not so anymore

Here is jazz about the word in Gen 1:2 translated was :


The KJV translates Strong's H1961 in the following manner: was, come to pass, came, has been, were happened, become, pertained, better for thee.
Outline of Biblical Usage H1933); to exist, i.e. be or become, come to pass (always emphatic, and not a mere copula or auxiliary):—beacon, × altogether, be(-come), accomplished, committed, like), break, cause, come (to pass), do, faint, fall, follow, happen, × have, last, pertain, quit (one-) self, require, × use.

---

Gen 1:27
So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them.

Gen 1:28
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

There are a lot of logical problems with the Creation stories unless they are taken less literally and more as a statement of faith.

1st Creation Story: God created the heavens and Earth, created light and apparently made the Earth begin to rotate as there would be light (day) and darkness (night) ending the first day. Without form and void seems to contradict the presence of deep waters, but oh well.

2nd Creation Story: God created the Heavens and Earth but there was no plants as yet as there was no man to work the soil and no rain. No mention of light.

1st Creation Story: God separated the waters so that there was water below and sky above ending the second day.

2nd Creation Story: Streams came up from the earth and watered the whole surface of the ground.

1st Creation Story: God separated the seas from the dry land. And then plants appeared ending the third day.

2nd Creation Story: God created the man he named Adam and placed him in the garden to be in charge of what God had planted. The man was allowed anything in the garden except that he must not eat the fruit of the Tree of Life.

1st Creation Story: God placed the sun in the sky to govern the day and the moon to govern the night and also made the stars, all to govern the seasons and years. (No explanation where the light came from on the first day or how there could be light and day without the sun but oh well again.) That ended the fourth day.

2nd Creation Story: Didn't concern itself with day or night or seasons.

1st Creation Story: God created the creatures of the sea and birds. That ended the fifth day.

2nd Creation Story: God had already created birds and beasts and brought them to the man to name them.

1st Creation Story: God created the creatures of the land including livestock and wild animals. And he made man in his own image, male and female he made them, to rule of the fish of the sea and the birds of the air, over the livestock, over all the earth, and all creatures that move along the ground and to enjoy the earth's bounty thus ending the sixth day.

2nd Creation Story: All that had already been done by the time God created Eve to be a helper to Adam and established the institution of marriage.

If one stretches far enough, one can try to reconcile the two versions with logical science and with each other. And I have absolutely no problem with anybody who does that and respect their faith.

I myself believe Genesis 1 to be among the newer manuscripts of the Old Testament and is intended as a theological statement that all that exists is by the hand of God and by His deliberate and intentional plan.

And Genesis 2 I believe to be one of the oldest manuscripts of the Old Testament and was intended as an illustration of the supremacy of God and a rather whimsical explanation of why things are as they are.

 

[Rescued One]

The word replenish meant fill when the Bible was translated into King James.

What Does ‘Replenish the Earth’ Mean?

New International Version
God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

English Standard Version
And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

New American Standard Bible
God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

King James Bible
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. Rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and every creature that crawls on the earth."

International Standard Version
God blessed the humans by saying to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it! Be masters over the fish in the ocean, the birds that fly, and every living thing that crawls on the earth!

 

[Anto9us]

OK, Phoebe Ann, preponderance of evidence is against REPLENISH as the best English word.

I'm not obstinate -- I can adjust.

 

[Rescued One]

OK, Phoebe Ann, preponderance of evidence is against REPLENISH as the best English word.

I'm not obstinate -- I can adjust.

 

[Peter1000]

The word replenish meant fill when the Bible was translated into King James.

What Does ‘Replenish the Earth’ Mean?

New International Version
God blessed them and said to them, "Be fruitful and increase in number; fill the earth and subdue it. Rule over the fish in the sea and the birds in the sky and over every living creature that moves on the ground."

English Standard Version
And God blessed them. And God said to them, “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it, and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.”

New American Standard Bible
God blessed them; and God said to them, "Be fruitful and multiply, and fill the earth, and subdue it; and rule over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the sky and over every living thing that moves on the earth."

King James Bible
And God blessed them, and God said unto them, Be fruitful, and multiply, and replenish the earth, and subdue it: and have dominion over the fish of the sea, and over the fowl of the air, and over every living thing that moveth upon the earth.

Holman Christian Standard Bible
God blessed them, and God said to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it. Rule the fish of the sea, the birds of the sky, and every creature that crawls on the earth."

International Standard Version
God blessed the humans by saying to them, "Be fruitful, multiply, fill the earth, and subdue it! Be masters over the fish in the ocean, the birds that fly, and every living thing that crawls on the earth!

Posting error, sorry.