Why Confederate Flags and Monuments In Public Places?

mark46 · Aug 21, 2017

Few are arguing against having our own holocaust and military museums and monuments within these museums. Few wish to keep military colleges from honoring Lee, Rommel and others.

That, of course, is not the issue. It seems that many in the South want to continue to honor their side causes of the Civil War, and their heroes who defended those causes. That is the major difference between the US situation and that of Germany. The governments and laws of Germany make it very, very clear that the causes of Naziism and their heroes are NOT the heroes of modern day Germany. Children are REQUIRED to go to filed trips to museums and to learn that the nazis were wrong. We require field trips, but whether the ideas of the South are honored depends on where you are.

STATES RIGHTS
Yes, the Civil War was fought partially about the right of the Southern states to insist on enslaving their people, and treating them as they wished. The South LOST that war. The US Constirtuion was amended to reflect that fact.

The country tried to move on. In the 1920's, the South rose again. Segregation laws were enacted, blacks were burned at the stake, and the Klan ruled much of the rural South. WWII happened and this fervor died down, as blacks fought yet again on the side of the UNION, the US. In the 50's, the fight was o to remove the laws of segregation. Brown vs Board Of Education declared forever the rights of blacks in the realm of education. The war was again on. In the 60's, the Civil Right Act and the Voting Rights Act made clear the law of the land. In the decades since, much has changed in the South. The KKK is a tiny group, as =are the nazis and the others. But, 2015 began a new era, where the fans of war are again being waved. The rally in Charlottesville was the largest in 20 years. Breitbart has its president and its leader.

So, we are at a turning point again. IMHO, this time most of the South has already rid itself of the symbols of racism, and others do so every day and night. Gannon and Breitbart will continue to fan the flames, leading a coalition, as is happening with far right groups in Europe. But, as in Europe, they WILL CONTINUE TO LOSE.

HawgWyld · Aug 21, 2017

mark46 said:
That, of course, is not the issue. It seems that many in the South want to continue to honor their side causes of the Civil War, and their heroes who defended those causes. ...

Ever spent much time in the South? Or, any at all?

Yes, we still have some people who insist on displaying Confederate flags and what-not in these parts. They have much less influence than you seem to give them credit.

Instrument150 · Aug 21, 2017

mark46 said:

Few are arguing against having our own holocaust and military museums and monuments within these museums. Few wish to keep military colleges from honoring Lee, Rommel and others.

That, of course, is not the issue. It seems that many in the South want to continue to honor their side causes of the Civil War, and their heroes who defended those causes. That is the major difference between the US situation and that of Germany. The governments and laws of Germany make it very, very clear that the causes of Naziism and their heroes are NOT the heroes of modern day Germany. Children are REQUIRED to go to filed trips to museums and to learn that the nazis were wrong. We require field trips, but whether the ideas of the South are honored depends on where you are.

STATES RIGHTS
Yes, the Civil War was fought partially about the right of the Southern states to insist on enslaving their people, and treating them as they wished. The South LOST that war. The US Constirtuion was amended to reflect that fact.

The country tried to move on. In the 1920's, the South rose again. Segregation laws were enacted, blacks were burned at the stake, and the Klan ruled much of the rural South. WWII happened and this fervor died down, as blacks fought yet again on the side of the UNION, the US. In the 50's, the fight was o to remove the laws of segregation. Brown vs Board Of Education declared forever the rights of blacks in the realm of education. The war was again on. In the 60's, the Civil Right Act and the Voting Rights Act made clear the law of the land. In the decades since, much has changed in the South. The KKK is a tiny group, as =are the nazis and the others. But, 2015 began a new era, where the fans of war are again being waved. The rally in Charlottesville was the largest in 20 years. Breitbart has its president and its leader.

So, we are at a turning point again. IMHO, this time most of the South has already rid itself of the symbols of racism, and others do so every day and night. Gannon and Breitbart will continue to fan the flames, leading a coalition, as is happening with far right groups in Europe. But, as in Europe, they WILL CONTINUE TO LOSE.

Click to expand...

Amos 3:5
Does a bird fall into a trap on the ground when there is no bait in it? Does a trap spring up from the earth when it captures nothing at all?
Proverbs 26:27
He who digs a pit will fall into it, And he who rolls a stone, it will come back on him.
Isaiah 29:21
Who cause a person to be indicted by a word, And ensnare him who adjudicates at the gate, And defraud the one in the right with meaningless arguments.
Proverbs 22:24-25
Do not associate with a man given to anger; Or go with a hot-tempered man, Or you will learn his ways And find a snare for yourself.
Isaiah 32:7
As for a rogue, his weapons are evil; He devises wicked schemes To destroy the afflicted with slander, Even though the needy one speaks what is right.
Psalm 64:6
They devise injustices, saying, "We are ready with a well-conceived plot"; For the inward thought and the heart of a man are deep.
Proverbs 6:14
Who with perversity in his heart continually devises evil, Who spreads strife.
Proverbs 12:20
Deceit is in the heart of those who devise evil, But counselors of peace have joy.
Proverbs 16:27-30
A worthless man digs up evil, While his words are like scorching fire. A perverse man spreads strife, And a slanderer separates intimate friends. A man of violence entices his neighbor And leads him in a way that is not good

mark46 · Aug 21, 2017

Perhaps, you haven't read my previous posts on this subject.

I have lived in South for 9 years. In my youth, I spent a bit of time in the South, during the times of Civil Rights movement.

I have applauded the governor and the people of my state and the way we have handled this issue. In 2015, when this was a critical issue, our governor decided to move the confederate flag from the state house, with the support of our legislature. The decision was made that the battle flag and the monuments belonged in museums. They were moved there. Curiously, Donald Trump spoke out on the subject. He SUPPORTED the actions of Governor Haily. In fact, he chose here for his ambassador to the UN.

I have many times said that the governments and peoples of the South have changed dramatically since the 60's. The racist groups are tiny, although now growing with support form Brietbart and others. I have applauded our governors, mayors and legislators for continuing to remove statues, many times in the middle of the night. There are only 800 or so left.

So, i apologize if I wasn't clear. The vast majority of the South has changed. The history of the Civil War will be remembered. However, we will act on the lessons of our lifetime in upholding out American values. The great difference between now and the 60's is that now the racists are among a relatively small minority.

HawgWyld said:
Ever spent much time in the South? Or, any at all?

Yes, we still have some people who insist on displaying Confederate flags and what-not in these parts. They have much less influence than you seem to give them credit.

HawgWyld · Aug 21, 2017

mark46 said:
Perhaps, you haven't read my previous posts on this subject.

Nope. I haven't. Don't come around these parts much anymore. What I reacted to was the notion that we are at some turning point in our history and was curious about the references to Trump and Breitbart.

As for the white trash loudmouths in Charlottesville, their braying is nothing new and isn't an effective barometer of any significant percentage of the good people in this part of the country. They're best ignored, ostracized or ridiculed. I choose to simply ignore them as I always have.

mark46 · Aug 21, 2017

HawgWyld said:
Nope. I haven't. Don't come around these parts much anymore. What I reacted to was the notion that we are at some turning point in our history and was curious about the references to Trump and Breitbart.

As for the white trash loudmouths in Charlottesville, they're braying is nothing new and isn't an effective barometer of any significant percentage of the good people in this part of the country. They're best ignored, ostracized or ridiculed. I choose to simply ignore them as I always have.

fair enough

We are only at a turning point if the followers of Bannon continue to grow. As I have indicated (and Bannon has indicated), Trump was their president. Bannon also says that the Bannon/Trump presidency is over. We should pray that this is so.

HawgWyld · Aug 21, 2017

mark46 said:
fair enough

We are only at a turning point if the followers of Bannon continue to grow. As I have indicated (and Bannon has indicated), Trump was their president. Bannon also says that the Bannon/Trump presidency is over. We should pray that this is so.

But, isn't that reading too much into this past election? Did Trump get into office because he subscribes to the tenants of white nationalism, or did he get in because people detest Hillary Clinton, are afraid of terrorism and like the idea of a president who promised to bring jobs back to the U.S.?

Again, I'd argue the crowd of racists running around these days is a distinct minority that has little relevance in the 21st century.

Fantine · Aug 22, 2017

Most Confederate monuments were built during the Jim Crow era.

Trump convinced Americans they were losing jobs because they were stolen by people of color--Mexican and Central American immigrants, Indians and Pakistanis, and outsourcing to Asian countries. He set up these people of color as scapegoats--and some believed and voted for him.

He also pit cities against rural and middle America--the cities with their liberal elites and African Americans.

His message was divisive and much of it encouraged xenophobia and racism.

HawgWyld · Aug 22, 2017

Fantine said:
His message was divisive...

The two-party political system -- by its very definition -- is divisive and both parties are filled with people who have made careers out of manipulating their followers to believe the opposition is evil. Why do you think people fly into an absolute panic when their "side" doesn't win? We saw hysteria in the wake of Trump's win, just as we saw it when Obama won, when Bush II won, when Clinton won...

TLK Valentine · Aug 22, 2017

Whenever a Confederate sympathizer mentions "states' rights" as a cause for the Civil War, the follow up question should always be: "The right to do what, specifically?" and let the tap-dancing commence.

TLK Valentine · Aug 22, 2017

Fantine said:
Most Confederate monuments were built during the Jim Crow era.

With many others built during the Civil Rights era. But of course, that's just supposed to be a coincidence...

Fantine · Aug 22, 2017

Ah, but the ones built later could have been part of an anti civil rights backlash.

TLK Valentine · Aug 26, 2017

Fantine said:
Ah, but the ones built later could have been part of an anti civil rights backlash.

Could? Seems obvious that was the point.

mark46 · Aug 26, 2017

We can't determine policy based on when a statue was built. States and local governments will continue to make their decisions. The federal government has no role, other than leadership, or lack thereof.

As I continue to point out, SC faced this two years ago, and the people (in unity) supported our Indian-American governor's decision to move confederate symbols from the State House grounds to a museum.
I would note that SC, a very, very Republican/Trump state has a back senator. Our third senator is Linsey Graham, hardly a Trump supporter.

Our UN ambassador is an example that many have followed, and will continue to follow.

AN ASIDE
SC has also had a domestic terrorist kill church members. Again the state mourned in unity, with Obama as part of the ceremony celebrating the lives of the members. We have had police killing innocents. Again, the state acted in unity.

If this can be done in the state that started the War, and has consistently supported segregation for so long, then the change can indeed happen anywhere. And, yes, the change is within the hearts of our citizens.

GoldenBoy89 · Aug 26, 2017

Some people just can't get over the fact that they lost.

AceHero · Aug 26, 2017

TLK Valentine said:
Whenever a Confederate sympathizer mentions "states' rights" as a cause for the Civil War, the follow up question should always be: "The right to do what, specifically?" and let the tap-dancing commence.

Well, it must be very uncomfortable for one to defend the Confederacy while refusing to admit why the Confederacy existed in the first place. Their declarations of secession from the U.S. name-dropped slavery as the reason for seceding. They tried to goad France and the UK into supporting their side due to the North blockading their cotton exports, which were the largest in the world. It was always about slavery.

mark46 · Aug 26, 2017

I don't want to be offensive, but I presume that you haven't been following US politics for very long. From WWII though 911, the parties often worked together. The animosity of 2017 has little or no resemblance to the situation when Reagan, Bush Sr, or Clinton were present. Even with Bush Jr, the parties worked together a lot. And, just BTW, there were several sets of hearings against the president along with impeachment and potential impeachment.

Reagan and Tip O'Nell fought and then drank together, and worked together.
Clinton and Gingrich passed lots of legislation together. Gingrich helped Hillary's campaign on 2008.

Of course, the Clintons and the Bushs are now close friends.
In Congress, most legislation was passed with help from both sides.

HawgWyld said:
The two-party political system -- by its very definition -- is divisive and both parties are filled with people who have made careers out of manipulating their followers to believe the opposition is evil. Why do you think people fly into an absolute panic when their "side" doesn't win? We saw hysteria in the wake of Trump's win, just as we saw it when Obama won, when Bush II won, when Clinton won...

mark46 · Aug 26, 2017

GoldenBoy89 said:
Some people just can't get over the fact that they lost.

Are you trying to show the common ground between Hillary and the Southerners campaigning for the flying of the battle flag?

ThatRobGuy · Aug 27, 2017

As I've touched on in other posts, the rationalizations for trying to keep confederate iconography don't hold water when you examine the details.

1) The "states' rights" angle... this one is a flat out absurdity. Three of the "Confederate States" wanted to secede specifically because they didn't like states' rights, in particular, the northern states who passed their own state laws saying that blacks that made it their states were safe and that their "owners" couldn't come up there and try to retrieve their "property". ...and the southern states were bitter than the federal government wasn't forcing the norther states to return them.

2) The "honoring military leaders" angle... Most of those statues and monuments weren't even put up by men who ever knew or served under those men...they were put up during the Jim Crow & Civil Rights era's as an act of defiance against spirit of equality that was gaining traction throughout the nation.

3) The "preservation of history" angle... The cry we always hear is "they want to erase history". In no way is anyone trying to erase the history of the civil war, the confederacy, or slavery. There are millions of history books in circulation, dozens of museums, and a virtual library of documentaries, writings, and analysis of the events that took place. It's one of the most well-documented events from our history. A statue of a grumpy racist on a horse with a placard stating "long live the confederacy" offers next to nil in terms of historical education or context.

People seem to have a hard time (or pretend to have a hard time) making the distinction between preserving history and showing reverence.

Keeping the flags, statues, and uniforms in a museum is preserving history. Keeping a detailed description of the events in our history books is preserving history. Keeping the detailed writings and memoirs in the national archives is preserving history.... Naming a school, built in 1981, after a confederate general is showing reverence. The difference is easy to see and understand...people just willfully ignore it.

Why Confederate Flags and Monuments In Public Places?

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