Catholic vs. Protestant Christianity

Vicomte13 said:

Catholicism does not agree with you. It's why you have your religion, and we have ours, and they are not the same. And that is why this thread exists, to flesh out these differences.

Catholicism has not systematized out exactly how Christ deals with virtuous pagans, but given that God is the Creator of all and knows all, we expect that those who do his will by doing what Jesus said - not because they know Jesus said it but because the Holy Spirit, speaking within them, directs their feet onto the path of virtue and keeps them there, doing what Jesus said to do (more or less, we are all sinners, after all) - these people are already listening to the voice of the shepherd although they know it not, and they will have their reward. How, exactly, we don't know because God didn't reveal it.

God DID reveal a path that we KNOW works, and that is the Catholic faith, which is why we follow it (even when leaders in the Church reveal themselves to be scumbags, because it's not ABOUT them).

Your religion teaches something completely different, namely, that one must consciously believe certain specific things and mouth certain shibboleths, and that if one does, one is "saved" otherwise one is lost.

Your religion believes that my religion is wrong and ridiculous, and mine believes the same thing about yours. Both have been fleshed out for the OP here.

To put a nice bow on it, my religion says that Jesus said that you are judged by what you DO, and that anybody who DOES what he said to do is his follower, even if he doesn't know it. Your religion says that you are judged by what you THINK, and that if you don't THINK the right things, God rejects you no matter what you DO.

The two religions both claim to be Christians, but at the most fundamental levels - despite all of the efforts at ecumenism - your belief system about how God judges people and mine are mortal enemies that cannot be reconciled. One of us is right, or both of us is wrong, but both of us can't be right.

The OP, and everybody else, has to decide what he thinks is MORE right. You and I have each decided, and come to the opposite conclusion, which is why we are in opposite, warring camps.

I am not very much interested in fighting the battle with you, because I already know it's completely hopeless, a waste of time, and will just result in high blood pressure. Who needs that?

I hope that you realize the same thing and that we don't have to go round and round in a theological dogfight over utterly irreconcilable beliefs. Neither of us WANTS to reconcile our beliefs with the other, because frankly, we each think that what the other believes is hellishly evil.

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Vicomte13 said:

They are the crux of it. Mary appears at Guadelupe. Mesoamerica converts to Christ.

Mary appears at Lourdes. Tens of thousands of people experience miraculous healings over the next two centuries.

Divine power is manifest and clear, so it must not be rejected. The Pharisees could not find Jesus in their Torah, so they attributed the miraculous healings he did to Satan. Bad mistake on their part.

Catholics build Marian shrines at places where Mary was sent by God to appear and convey information to believers. That's the what and the why.

You object to it. It seems strange to me that you would reject divine miracles because you don't like the vehicle by which they came. But then, I'm just as puzzled by the same behavior in the Pharisees.

The Protestant mind simply doesn't work like the Catholic mind. Fortunately we live in an era where we're not forced to be under the religious control of the other, but can each go our own way.

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Righttruth said:

It means that one may drift away when suffering and persecutions arise

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OrthodoxyUSA said:

Just to clarify. Let's say I go out and kill a bunch of people, but I was born again believer. Do I still go to heaven?

Forgive me...

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JacksBratt said:

Yes.

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Vicomte13 said:

The Holy Spirit was breathed by God into the Church. The Holy Spirit speaks through the Church.

The former teaching was perfectly valid in its day, just as the teachings of the Jews were valid in their day.

When God saw fit to change it, he changed it, through new revelation and new understanding.

Now, the Jewish authorities asserted that God never changes, so they tried to murder God by torturing him to death. Of course they failed, God rose from the dead and brought the message through, and took the vineyard away from the Jews, closing out the old covenant by invoking the penalty clause. God sent the Roman Army under Titus to utterly destroy the Temple forever, wipe out the priesthood, and make it such that it will never be rebuilt.

The Templar Judaism in which the Holy Spirit dwelt in the Holy of Holies was broken by God, and the Holy Spirit left the Holy of Holies forever, never ever to return.

Some Jews continued to follow God, by doing what God said and following Jesus. Jesus said what to do and breathed the Holy Spirit into the Apostles and sent the Holy Spirit into the Church.

So now when the Church speaks on a matter of faith and doctrine, it speaks as did the High Priests of Old, before Jesus - that's where the Holy Spirit dwells.

So, before Jesus, pork was unclean (for Jews). Then Jesus made all foods clean for Jews. Before Jesus, blood could not be drunk (by anybody). Jesus commanded people to drink HIS blood.

Jesus sent the Holy Spirit into the Church, not to dwell in a Holy of Holies as before, but by breathing it into the apostles - the Holy Spirit is carried forward by the clergy in Apostolic succession, and when they speak as a body, as at Vatican 2 and in the Catechism, that is the voice of God speaking infallibly.

A doctrine existed before, perhaps of God (like the prohibition on pork), perhaps of men (priestly celibacy). It was a solemn doctrine for the benefit of the faithful, and it served for its time to do that.

But in the Providence of God, that time passed, and God moved again, through the Holy Spirit. The Holy Spirit spoke through the Church at Vatican 2, whose message is recorded in the New Catechism, and God has revealed that the understanding of men before - that men can come to God through the Catholic Church - was and is true - and that the Church is the visible presence of God upon the earth, a sure path. But God ALSO revealed what was not revealed before, that other men outside of the church, in different sheepfolds, may also somehow be hearing God's voice, and that God may save them - just as Christians always understood that somehow in his mercy God can take unbaptized babies to be with him in the afterlife EVEN THOUGH they do not meet a requirement that is generally believed to be obligatory.

Revelation and clarification of things by God did not end in the First Century. It did not end with the Bible. It did not end with the Reformation. When Mary came to Guadelupe and Lourdes and Fatima new things were revealed, and new things were also revealed by the Holy Spirit through the Church in council at Vatican 2.

That's why Jesus left a Church with the Holy Spirit dwelling in it, not a Bible dispensary.

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OrthodoxyUSA said:

Well, Okay, roger that.

Could I ask your thoughts on Matthew 25:31-46 in relation to the subject?

Forgive me...

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amariselle said:

1 God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers by the prophets,

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds... - Hebrews 1:1-2

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JacksBratt said:

There is nothing in that scripture that states that you can lose your salvation.

A person can be a totally honest saved born again Christian with regular prayer and bible reading..church attendance, tithing, all the things a person would do to indicate, to fellow men, that they are saved.

This same person could end up in a place where they would murder..... it does not take away their salvation.

God knows the heart of all men ( and women)

You cannot "DO" anything that would cause you to lose something you DID nothing to get.

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OrthodoxyUSA said:

Who is 'us'? Is 'us' not The Church? Even the fathers? He certainly didn't individuals.

Matthew 16:18

"And I say also unto thee, That thou art Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hell shall not prevail against it."

Forgive me...

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JacksBratt said:

Yes.

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amariselle said:

Yes, "us" is all true believers.

Jesus did not build His Church on Peter. That verse has been misunderstood for far too long.

The Church is built on Christ.

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JacksBratt said:

There is nothing in that scripture that states that you can lose your salvation.

A person can be a totally honest saved born again Christian with regular prayer and bible reading..church attendance, tithing, all the things a person would do to indicate, to fellow men, that they are saved.

This same person could end up in a place where they would murder..... it does not take away their salvation.

God knows the heart of all men ( and women)

You cannot "DO" anything that would cause you to lose something you DID nothing to get.

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amariselle said:

Yes, "us" is all true believers.

Jesus did not build His Church on Peter. That verse has been misunderstood for far too long.

The Church is built on Christ.

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OrthodoxyUSA said:

That is where scholasticism goes wrong. You've studied yourself into a corner and missed the forest for the trees.

If we can't fall away, there would be no reason to write epistles to the Churches warning them.

1Co 10:12

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

1Ti 3:6

Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

1Ti 3:7

Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Heb 4:11

Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Heb 6:6

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Jas 5:12

But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

2Pe 1:10

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2Pe 3:17

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Not to mention having to leave out the candles of whole Churches being put out in Revelation.

We can and we do fall, all the time. We pick ourselves up, ask forgiveness and keep going.

Forgive me...

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OrthodoxyUSA said:

That is where scholasticism goes wrong. You've studied yourself into a corner and missed the forest for the trees.

If we can't fall away, there would be no reason to write epistles to the Churches warning them.

1Co 10:12

Wherefore let him that thinketh he standeth take heed lest he fall.

1Ti 3:6

Not a novice, lest being lifted up with pride he fall into the condemnation of the devil.

1Ti 3:7

Moreover he must have a good report of them which are without; lest he fall into reproach and the snare of the devil.

Heb 4:11

Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.

Heb 6:6

If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

Jas 5:12

But above all things, my brethren, swear not, neither by heaven, neither by the earth, neither by any other oath: but let your yea be yea; and your nay, nay; lest ye fall into condemnation.

2Pe 1:10

Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:

2Pe 3:17

Ye therefore, beloved, seeing ye know these things before, beware lest ye also, being led away with the error of the wicked, fall from your own stedfastness.

Not to mention having to leave out the candles of whole Churches being put out in Revelation.

We can and we do fall, all the time. We pick ourselves up, ask forgiveness and keep going.

Forgive me...

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amariselle said:

Believe me, I've read about the Marian apparitions, and in regard to Fatima, I read an entire book (which was in my [Catholic] grandma's things that we had after she passed away.)

Here are some things this "apparition" apparently said:

"Yes, I will take Jacinta and Francisco soon. But you are to stay here some time longer. Jesus wishes to make use of you to make Me known and loved. He wants to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart. To whoever embraces this devotion I promise salvation; these souls shall be dear to God, as flowers placed by Me to adorn His throne.”"

"No, My daughter. Do you suffer a great deal? Don’t lose heart. I will never forsake you. My Immaculate Heart will be your refuge and the way that will lead you to God.”"

“"I want you to come here on the 13th of next month, to continue reciting the Rosary every day in honor of Our Lady of the Rosary, in order to obtain peace in the world and the end of the war, because only She can help you.”"

"“Continue to come here every month. In October, I will say who I am and what I want, and I will perform a miracle so that all might see in order to believe."

"“Sacrifice yourselves for sinners, and say often to Jesus, especially whenever you make a sacrifice: ‘O Jesus, it is for love of Thee, for the conversion of sinners, and in reparation for the sins committed against the Immaculate Heart of Mary.’”"

"You have seen hell where the souls of poor sinners go. To save them, God wishes to establish in the world devotion to My Immaculate Heart.”"

“"In the end, My Immaculate Heart will triumph. The Holy Father will consecrate Russia to Me, and she will be converted, and a period of peace will be granted to the world.”"

"To whomever embraces this devotion, I promise salvation.”"

Fatima and the Immaculate Heart of Mary

So, according to "Mary" in this apparition:

Jesus wishes Mary to be known and loved, so that there will be devotion to her "Immaculate Heart" and "Mary" promises that she will save all who devote themselves to her "Immaculate Heart."

Yet, the Bible says we are saved by grace, through faith in Christ alone. That it is His once for all finished sacrifice that has purged our sins.

According to "Mary" we can sacrifice ourselves for sinners.

Acorrding to "Mary" we must make "reparation" for sins committed against her "Immculate Heart."

The Bible never once says anyone has sinned against Mary, but, rather, that we have all sinned against God and fall short of His glorious standard.

God's plan of salvation is clearly laid out and revealed in Scripture, and although Mary did indeed play a role, she herself acknowledged her need for her Saviour (Luke 1:47). Nor does salvation depend on her Immaculate Heart or her decision to grant forgiveness in return for "reparations" made to her.

Forgiveness and salvation is found in Christ alone. That is why I reject this apparition.

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JacksBratt said:

Thanks for the information...
As for myself, the Bible is the final word. If a "religion" contradicts, ignores, adds to, takes away, stretches, embellishes or blatantly slanders what is written in the canonical texts.... it needs to change.

All religions are man made, man created and man controlled and regulated.

We need to strive for a personal relationship with Christ and strive to be more like Him. Period.

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Vicomte13 said:

Lourdes is much more interesting to me because the river of healing miracles vouches for it through modern medical science. That's why I talk about Lourdes. Never was much interested in Fatima, to be frank.

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amariselle said:

Fair enough. I do think we should be on guard however, Scripture tells us that not all miracles and signs and wonders come from God.

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