Trinity discussion with St Worm2

gadar perets said:

Yeshua taught us who the "only true God" is in John 17:3, his Father. He excluded himself in that prayer. Yet, you are making the Son the only true God, thereby denying the Father. I don't know exactly what you believe, but if you believe the Son gave the Ten Commandments and that the Son parted the Red Sea and that the Son did most of the miracles in the OT and that the Son is the "YHWH" of the OT, then you are denying the Father.

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"....even in his Son Jesus Christ. This is the true God, and eternal life." (1 John 5:20).

"And this is life eternal, that they might know thee [i.e. the Father] the only true God [i.e. the Trinity, which would include the Holy Spirit], and Jesus Christ [i.e. the Son], whom thou hast sent." (John 17:3).

We see the three fold mention of the Trinity elsewhere in Scripture, so this is not a new concept.

"Go ye therefore, and teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost." (Matthew 28:19).


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Dartman said:

First, the phrase isn't merely "I am". The phrase is "I am he". When you look at the context, and at ALL of Christ's teaching, the "he" being discussed is "the Christ", it is "the one SENT BY God".

It is NEVER ..... EVER ..... " I am God".

When you look at Ex 3, "I am" is Jehovah stating "I exist", or I am "the being"..... obviously in contrast to false Gods.... which do NOT literally exist. In fact, the English translation of the LXX literally states;
13 And Moses said to God, Behold, I shall go forth to the children of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of our fathers has sent me to you; and they will ask me, What is his name? What shall I say to them? 14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you. 15 And God said again to Moses, Thus shalt thou say to the sons of Israel, The Lord God of our fathers, the God of Abraam, and God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is my name for ever, and my memorial to generations of generations.

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Jesus says, "Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58).

Then the Pharisees went ape crazy.

Just "I am." That is what Jesus said. That is all it took for them to go crazy.

As for John 8:24: Actually the English word "he" is not in the Greek.


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Dartman said:

First, the phrase isn't merely "I am". The phrase is "I am he". When you look at the context, and at ALL of Christ's teaching, the "he" being discussed is "the Christ", it is "the one SENT BY God".

It is NEVER ..... EVER ..... " I am God".

When you look at Ex 3, "I am" is Jehovah stating "I exist", or I am "the being"..... obviously in contrast to false Gods.... which do NOT literally exist. In fact, the English translation of the LXX literally states;
13 And Moses said to God, Behold, I shall go forth to the children of Israel, and shall say to them, The God of our fathers has sent me to you; and they will ask me, What is his name? What shall I say to them? 14 And God spoke to Moses, saying, I am THE BEING; and he said, Thus shall ye say to the children of Israel, THE BEING has sent me to you. 15 And God said again to Moses, Thus shalt thou say to the sons of Israel, The Lord God of our fathers, the God of Abraam, and God of Isaac, and God of Jacob, has sent me to you: this is my name for ever, and my memorial to generations of generations.

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And why did Jesus not say that "I am God" or why didn't Jesus float around 10 feet in the air and crush people from far away by using the crushing hand gesture? Because He had a mission to accomplish: To save mankind (John 3:16).


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Dartman said:

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging Jesus as our Lord,

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Yes, I know because Jesus is the Lord God Almighty.

You said:

It makes perfect sense, when God has GIVEN that power TO that man!!

John 5:26 For as the Father hath life in Himself; so hath He given to the Son to have life in himself;
27 And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

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God the Father gave Jesus (the Son of Man) the AUTHORITY to execute judgment ALSO. There is another authority that God the Father gave to Jesus (the Son of Man). God the Father's authority was given to Jesus (the Son of man) in regards to Him having continued life within Himself (as a part of His natural being as the Son of God). God the Father is the authorative head of the Trinity. He is higher in rank but not in substance or essence. Jesus was saying in John 5:26 that the Father has given Him (Christ) the authority to continue to have life within Himself (as a part of His natural being) when He would indwell the flesh of a man (by way of a virgin). This is important to understand because Jesus suppressed His divine attribute of Omniscience either sometime before the world began or as a part of the Incarnation. This was so that Jesus could be a figurative type of Adam who also had suppressed knowledge before the Fall. The continued parallel is: In Adam all die, but in Christ, all should be made alive.

You said:

Jesus is an ADVOCATE with the Father, he is a MEDIATOR BETWEEN GOD and men. Jesus doesn't answer prayer, he interacts with his God, on behalf of the believer. It is his God that answers prayer.

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"...and not through the blood of goats and calves, but through His own blood, He entered the holy place once for all, having obtained eternal redemption." (Hebrews 9:12).

14 "Seeing then that we have a great high priest, that is passed into the heavens, Jesus the Son of God, let us hold fast our profession.
15 For we have not an high priest which cannot be touched with the feeling of our infirmities; but was in all points tempted like as we are, yet without sin.
16 Let us therefore come boldly unto the throne of grace, that we may obtain mercy, and find grace to help in time of need." (Hebrews 4:14-16).

24 "But this man, because he continueth ever, hath an unchangeable priesthood.
25 Wherefore he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come unto God by him, seeing he ever liveth to make intercession for them." (Hebrews 7:24-25).

But when it pleased God…to reveal His Son in me.” (Galatians 1:15-16).
And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. (Romans 8:10).
“I am crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but it is Christ who lives in me.” (Galatians 2:20).
"That Christ may make His home in your hearts through faith.” (Ephesians 3:17).
"Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me." (Revelation 3:20).
"Christ in you, the hope of glory.” (Colossians 1:27).
When He comes to be glorified in His saints and to be marveled at in all those who have believed.” (2 Thessalonians 1:10).

You said:

Given the context, Thomas had just been convinced that his God had raised his Lord from the dead. Thomas' remark was directly acknowledging this fact. Your efforts to overlook those facts, are a direct result of being brainwashed into assuming this text actually says something it simply does NOT say.
You didn't answer my question;
Here is an example:
I said to Brenda; "my wife, and my manager"... what do I mean? (I am taking this example from real life, so this actually happened). There is a fixed meaning, which is obvious, once you know the details of the context. I doubt you will EVER figure out what I actually meant, without the context.

Please explain what I meant, without knowing the context.

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I know we need context to fill in the details. That is what you are ignoring in John 20. There is no context showing us that Thomas previously praising God and also praising Jesus each distinctively. You need to have a passage like that before verse 28 in order for your view to work here. A context of silence or from your own imagination does not count.


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Dartman said:

That mission was assigned to him by "the ONLY true God". Jesus didn't assign/ordain/anoint himself.
Your theory isn't Biblical.
Your excuses for WHY it's not in the Bible do NOT overcome the simple fact, trinitarian theory is MAN made.
And, trinitarian theory is NEVER ...... EVER ..... preached, to ANY audience in the Scripture!
Paul INSISTS that we cling to the Jesus they DID PREACH!!

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"I, even I, am the LORD; and beside me there is no saviour." (Isaiah 43:11).


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Dartman said:

Ok, that's not the text you quoted. You quoted "I am he" post #250 John 8:24.

But, you are correct, Jesus DID say that he IS before Abraham was. And then, the Jews tried to kill him.

And, if you look in Gen 3:15, Jesus is promised to Eve. Jesus IS before Abraham was.

The text simply does NOT state what you wish it did.

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No. The verses do say what I had said to you.

"for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins." (John 8:24).

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58).

As for Genesis:

We can see an allusion to the Trinity within it's pages.

"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likenes." (Genesis 1:26).


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Jason0047 said:

No. The verses do say what I had said to you.

"for if ye believe not that I am [he], ye shall die in your sins." (John 8:24).

"Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." (John 8:58).

As for Genesis:

We can see an allusion to the Trinity within it's pages.



"And God said, Let us make man in our image, after our likenes." (Genesis 1:26).


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He was talking to the heavenly hosts, the angels,
but they disagreed, so what happened?

Gen 1:27,

And God created man is His image;
in the image of God He created them;
Male amd female He created them.

PS,
Though He is the Lord of hosts,
in His humility He consulted the heavenly hosts.

They are standing on His left and His right,
When judging kings, example, 1Kings 22:19.

Dartman said:

Ummm.... no, the angels didn't "disagree";
Job 38:1 Then Jehovah answered Job out of the whirlwind, and said,
2 Who is this that darkeneth counsel
By words without knowledge?
3 Gird up now thy loins like a man;
For I will demand of thee, and declare thou unto me.
4 Where wast thou when I laid the foundations of the earth?
Declare, if thou hast understanding.
5 Who determined the measures thereof, if thou knowest?
Or who stretched the line upon it?
6 Whereupon were the foundations thereof fastened?
Or who laid the corner-stone thereof,
7 When the morning stars sang together,
And all the sons of God shouted for joy?

And then, yes, God DID create man in His image.

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Psalms 68:19,
You ascended high and took a captive.
You seized gifts for man,
and (now) even rebels dwell with Yah, God.

One commentry has it,
Israel ascended on high and seized the Torah from the angels.

But it was Moses who ascended.

Dartman said:

...Salvation depends on getting these beliefs right.
Heb 11:6 But without faith, it is impossible to please Him. For, he that cometh to God, MUST believe that HE is .. (not just any God), and that HE is a rewarder of them that diligently seek Him.

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that could be true or it could not be and I see that both a trinitarian and non-trinitarian understanding of God could lead to the same outcome depending on if a person "loves God with all they are".

Jas 2:17-20 (YLT)
so also the faith, if it may not have works, is dead by itself. But say may some one, Thou hast faith, and I have works, shew me thy faith out of thy works, and I will shew thee out of my works my faith: thou--thou dost believe that God is one; thou dost well, and the demons believe, and they shudder! And dost thou wish to know, O vain man, that the faith apart from the works is dead?

though correct beliefs are right and good and any kind of belief too far away from Gods nature will cause damage. one example being that you confuse the nature of the antichrist with the nature of christ.

but I get you on people harming themselves over accepting jesus as deity. people always try to make an idol out of everything, even out of God. in the wilderness the bronze serpent on a pole saved people from death but in the holy land it became an idol that angered God.

Dartman said:

It was Jesus who ascended, took captivity captive, and gave gifts to men, according to Paul in Eph 4.... but that doesn't have anything to do with angels disagreeing... or rejoicing ... or Jehovah creating humans in His image.... so, could you please explain what you are saying?

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I will,

hang on a moment, it takes a while for me to write/type