Trinity discussion with St Worm2

[gadar perets]

Does God have a God? Explaining John 20:17 in Defense of the Trinity.

"Jesus saith unto her,
"Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.""
(John 20:17).

Is Jesus (Who is God) really saying He has a God?
In other words, does God have a God?

Well, in the beginning of the gospel of John, it says this...

John 1:1-2 KJV - "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was WITH God, and the Word WAS God. The same was in the beginning with God."

In other words, John 20:17 is speaking in a similar way as John 1:1. The Word (Jesus - who is God) was with God the Father.

So when Jesus says... "I ascend unto... my God..." He is acknowledging that He is ascending to the Father who is God in essence in being (as a part of the plurality of the Godhead).

Yet, how can God have a God? Doesn't that imply a possession?
Yes, but Jesus says elsewhere, "I and the Father are one" (John 10:30).
Also, when Jesus uses the word "my" in the words "my God" He is also referring to whom He always obeys, too (Sort of like how a loyal servant always obeys His ruling King).

For Jesus says elsewhere, "... for I do always those things that please him." (John 8:29).
Also, when Jesus claimed to be God, and the Pharisees wanted to kill him for it, Jesus quoted Old Testament Scripture that says, "ye are gods." (i.e. gods = kings) as a way of protecting His mission in going to the cross (John 10:34).

Anyways, confusion on this topic arises because people need to know that the Lord our God is one God and yet He also has a plural nature to Him, as well.

For the Bible teaches that there is one God (Deuteronomy 6:4) (1 Timothy 2:5) (Isaiah 45:5).

Yet, the Bible also teaches that there are distinctions within the Godhead or that there is a plural nature to God.

You are teaching polytheism. God does NOT have a God. The Son of God has a God. The problem lies in the fact that people have made the Son into a God causing tremendous confusion, so much so that the unexplainable trinity doctrine has to be called "a mystery".

Every one of your points can easily be refuted, but I suspect I would be wasting my time to even try.

 

[Dartman]

HE stretches backwards, to the beginning and forwards to the end
As a high priest over the WHOLE HOUSE. Just as a SON over HIS FATHERS HOUSE faithful in ALL HIS FATHER's POSSESSIONS

Nope.

 

[Dartman]

You are teaching polytheism. God does NOT have a God. The Son of God has a God. The problem lies in the fact that people have made the Son into a God causing tremendous confusion, so much so that the unexplainable trinity doctrine has to be called "a mystery".

Every one of your points can easily be refuted, but I suspect I would be wasting my time to even try.

Awesome point! Jesus himself corrected this misunderstanding;
I SAID, "I am the SON of God"!! John 10:36

 

[miknik5]

Nope.

Yep

 

[Bible Highlighter]

You are teaching polytheism. God does NOT have a God. The Son of God has a God. The problem lies in the fact that people have made the Son into a God causing tremendous confusion, so much so that the unexplainable trinity doctrine has to be called "a mystery".

Every one of your points can easily be refuted, but I suspect I would be wasting my time to even try.

No. I am not teaching polytheism. The Lord our God is still one God. The Trinity doctrine is monotheistic and not polytheistic.


...

 

[Bible Highlighter]

Sorry, this author is attempting to defend
his error, by quoting his error.
This practice is known as "begging the question".

The beginning half of the post was written by me. Only the list of 160 reasons for Jesus being God was by another author (of which I gave the author's name and source to his original writing).

The fallacy of begging the question occurs when an argument's premises assume the truth of the conclusion, instead of supporting it. In other words, you assume without proof the stand/position, or a significant part of the stand, that is in question

Jesus asked questions all the time so as to teach.
So if you have a problem with questions, please take it up with Him.

And, the 160 points you have cut and pasted into your reply are a farce. Please don't insult us with this kind of garbage dump.

Well, I noticed that you did not even bother to reply to at least one of the verses on that list (Which tells me a lot). But thank you for the insult.

May the Lord Jesus Christ (Who is God) be glorified!!!



...

 

[St_Worm2]

You are teaching polytheism. God does NOT have a God. The Son of God has a God. The problem lies in the fact that people have made the Son into a God causing tremendous confusion, so much so that the unexplainable trinity doctrine has to be called "a mystery".

Every one of your points can easily be refuted, but I suspect I would be wasting my time to even try.

Hi GP, no one made God into what He has always been, from everlasting .. Psalm 90:2. As for the doctrine of the Trinity, it 'is' a mystery The church's purpose in creating the doctrine was to secure (circumscribe/safeguard) the Biblical truth concerning this mystery, not explain it, because that is beyond us!

There are many more mysteries in the Bible. After all, we are finite creatures attempting to discuss and understand the infinite, particularly our Divine/Infinite God, so the fact that we run into things that we cannot not fully explain/understand hardly seems unexpected

Yours and His,
David

 

[gadar perets]

Hi GP, no one made God into what He has always been, from everlasting .. Psalm 90:2.

I agree. I said they made the Son into a God. Psalm 90:2 refers only to Father YHWH.

 

[St_Worm2]

Awesome point! Jesus himself corrected this misunderstanding;
I SAID, "I am the SON of God"!! John 10:36

Hey Dartman, the funny thing is, if we jump back a couple of verses in John 10, the Jews made it clear that they understood EXACTLY what Jesus was saying about Himself, didn't they

John 10
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” ​

In Christ,
David

 

[St_Worm2]

I agree. I said they made the Son into a God. Psalm 90:2 refers only to Father YHWH.

The Son is YHWH, just as the Father and HS are. One God/three Persons. YHWH exists as a Trinity

 

[gadar perets]

No. I am not teaching polytheism. The Lord our God is still one God. The Trinity doctrine is monotheistic and not polytheistic.
...

When you have one God who resurrects another God and tells him to sit on His right hand in heaven until He makes his enemies his footstool (Psalm 110:1), then you have two Gods. When the one God turns the Kingdom over to the other God after those enemies are made his footstool and he becomes subject to the other God (1 Corinthians 15:28), then you have two Gods.

 

[gadar perets]

Well, I noticed that you did not even bother to reply to at least one of the verses on that list (Which tells me a lot).

I know this is not addressed to me, but I would like to address at least one point.

12.Jesus was WORSHIPPED - Matthew 2:11, Matthew 9:12, Matthew 14:33, Matthew 28:9, Luke 24:52..Since only God is to be
worshipped - Matthew 4:10..that means Jesus is God.
​

If you understood how the Hebrew and Greek words translated "worship" were used elsewhere, you would see how faulty this point is. Abraham "bowed down" to men (Genesis 23:12), but the word for "bowed down" is the same Hebrew word used for the worship of YHWH. The same word used for the "worship" of Yeshua was used for men worshiping believers (Revelation 3:9). The people Abraham "worshiped" and the believers that receive "worship" are not God simply because they were "worshiped". Neither is Yeshua God simply because he was worshiped. If you check out the definitions of those words and see the different ways they were translated, you will understand the error of point #12 and you will see the bias of trinitarian translators in using the word "worship" in reference to Yeshua instead of "bowed down" or something similar.

 

[gadar perets]

The Son is YHWH, just as the Father and HS are. One God/three Persons. YHWH exists as a Trinity

There are at least nine verses that teach us there is only one YHWH and other verses that teach us that that one YHWH is Yeshua's Father as in Psalm 2:7.

 

[St_Worm2]

Nope, one God existing as three Persons is still one God Again, we cannot fully explain how such a thing is possible (anymore than we can explain how God can be omnipresent, IOW, at all places at all times at the same time), but we regard it/teach both as the truth because the Bible teaches us that it is.

BTW, God was never resurrected because He never died. However, YHWH, existing as personthe Son took on a second, human nature at His Incarnation, and it is according to that nature, His human nature, that He was born, died and was resurrected as a human being. And He remains fully God and fully human in Heaven, even today.

But I know you know all of this

 

[Dartman]

Hey Dartman, the funny thing is, if we jump back a couple of verses in John 10, the Jews made it clear that they understood EXACTLY what Jesus was saying about Himself, didn't they

John 10
31 The Jews picked up stones again to stone Him.
32 Jesus answered them, “I showed you many good works from the Father; for which of them are you stoning Me?”
33 The Jews answered Him, “For a good work we do not stone You, but for blasphemy; and because You, being a man, make Yourself out to be God.” ​

In Christ,
David

Sorry, Jesus' correction of their error proves precisely, they did NOT understand!
Jesus most certainly did NOT say "you are right", in response to the Jews.
In stead he said, in the FIRST place, the Scriptures, (which do NOT lie), calls them gods, to whom the word of God came (Psa 82). In the SECOND place, I SAID "I am the SON of God" (NOT "I am God).

Your point utterly fails.

 

[Dartman]

The beginning half of the post was written by me.

Then YOU are "begging the question". You insert completely unbiblical statements, like (who is God) as if this is assumed to be true, when it isn't. That is "begging the question".

Only the list of 160 reasons for Jesus being God was by another author (of which I gave the author's name and source to his original writing).

That author is going to have a lot to answer for on judgment day. All of the verses are marvelous, the conclusions drawn are out right deception.

 

[Dartman]

Nope, one God existing as three Persons is still one God

Based on what??? "trinitarian" opinion??
Sorry, your statement is fiction, and the theory is fiction.

Again, we cannot fully explain how such a thing is possible (anymore than we can explain how God can be omnipresent, IOW, at all places at all times at the same time)

Neither are true. Neither are taught in Scripture. And before you quote Psa 139, and pretend it teaches GOD is everywhere at once, you better reexamine the text, and see that it is about GOD'S SPIRIT, not God Himself.
Ps 139:7 Whither shall I go from thy spirit? or whither shall I flee from thy presence?
When you look at the more than 2000 times the Hebrew word translated "presence" is used in the OT, you realize it is VERY broad in meaning, and is discussing God's AWARENESS.... not His physical form.
By contrast, the Scriptures REPEATEDLY discuss God's physical location, walking in the garden, descending on Mount Sinai, LEAVING heaven, DWELLING on earth, WITH men.

BTW, God was never resurrected because He never died. However, YHWH, existing as personthe Son took on a second, human nature at His Incarnation, and it is according to that nature, His human nature, that He was born, died and was resurrected as a human being. And He remains fully God and fully human in Heaven, even today.

This is pure fiction, and isn't preached EVER to ANY audience in Scripture!

But I know you know all of this

 

[Dartman]

There are at least nine verses that teach us there is only one YHWH and other verses that teach us that that one YHWH is Yeshua's Father as in Psalm 2:7.

Yes!! And, we KNOW Jesus CANNOT be Jehovah!
Jehovah stated plainly, He would put His words in Jesus' mouth;
Deut 18:17-19 And Jehovah said unto me, They have well said that which they have spoken. 18 I will raise them up a prophet from among their brethren, like unto thee; and I will put My words in his mouth, and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. 19 And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto My words which he shall speak in My name, I will require it of him.

Peter tells us, beyond doubt, this text is about Jesus (Acts 3:19-24)

And, Jesus clinches the "nail", by stating with graphic clarity, WHERE the words/logos he spoke came from;
John 12:49 For I have not spoken of myself; but the Father which sent me, He gave me a commandment, what I should say, and what I should speak.

John 14:24 He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: and the word which ye hear is not mine, but the Father's which sent me.

There can be no question. Jesus' Father is Jehovah. Jesus CAN NOT be Jehovah ..... or you make him a liar!! Jehovah put the words/logos Jesus spoke, in Jesus' mouth. Jesus himself declares, Jesus did NOT come up with those words.

The trinity is an unscriptural, unholy mishmash of Greek philosophy, and a tiny handful of verses taken out of context.

 

[Noxot]

Why did Jesus warn about "false Christs"?
Why did Paul warn about "another Jesus"?
Why did Jehovah care which "God" Israel worshiped?
Why is Jehovah a "jealous God"?
Why is the TRUTH important?
Why is it important to the trinitarians, that I accept "the deity of Jesus"?

I guess all those questions comes down to each of us and are part of our relation with God

 

[miknik5]

When you have one God who resurrects another God and tells him to sit on His right hand in heaven until He makes his enemies his footstool (Psalm 110:1), then you have two Gods. When the one God turns the Kingdom over to the other God after those enemies are made his footstool and he becomes subject to the other God (1 Corinthians 15:28), then you have two Gods.

CHRIST must reign until all has been accomplished
There's a reason why HE is before the throne as a lamb looking as if slain though lives (revelation 5)