Tongues..a sign.

Alithis · Aug 1, 2017

Biblicist said:
This in my opinion is a bit of a troublesome statement as I have yet to meet anyone who has been "freed from the void of sin", though the Born Again Believer is no longer being imprisoned to our sin . . . but even the Elect sin, either by a wilful decision or by omission.

As we may need to qualify some previous points, even though I may have misread a few things that you said, it should be pointed out that every person who has confessed Jesus as their Lord and Saviour is Born Again, even if they have not been correctly informed that they can all immediately begin to pray in the Spirit (tongues).

Firstly ..thank auto correct for the word Void.
How power went to void in not sure.
We are freed from the power of sin .

The rest of the topic you raise is a huge error .you said..
“but even the Elect sin, either by a wilful decision or by omission.“
Any disciple of Jesus who sins by willful decision and continues to do so is Not born again of the Spirit of God yet.
The scripture is explicit on this.

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 1, 2017

Jesus said if you believe, then the sign of speaking in new tongues follows you.
Wise not to contradict the Lord.
You in fact DO speak with new tongues. All born again believers do. You are just looking for something other than what the NT refers to as new, or unknow, tongues.
First thing to do is to simply fall in line with Jesus, and agree that you in fact do speak with new tongues. Until we align ourselves with what he says... then we will walk around in dark and be constantly confused.
You DO speak with new tongues.
Period. Jesus said so.

AlexDTX · Aug 1, 2017

Alithis said:
Just because every event is not listed cannot be used to say that did or didn't.but since it is God's will for all disciples to be equipped it is not a big stretch to assume they got baptised in the holy Spirit.
Why would a born again believer refuse ?

Wrong doctrine. Also not wanting to take full responsibility for their choices. The trouble I have with your point is that you are saying that if you don't have the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues that you are not saved. That is not true. It simply means your faith is weaker because the baptism strengthens faith. Jesus told the disciples not to go until they had received the power from on high. The power is the increase in faith that the baptism grants. But a born again believer who has been taught wrong doctrine (ie that gifts of the Spirit ceased with the early church) is still saved.

Another aspect of why people reject the tongues is because of pride. Everyone wants to believe that they are right. If you don't speak in tongues then you will self justify. That does not mean we lose salvation, otherwise the born again legalists would not be saved, but they are, too. What it means is that self justification undermines the quality of experience that a believer will have with Christ. But the gift of salvation is complete. It is a finished work. The thief on the cross did not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, nor any chance for walking with Jesus in life. He was not a disciple, yet he was promised salvation by Christ.

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 1, 2017

There is a school of thought that that says that speaking in tongues can be achieved by anyone, simply by using the "fake it til you make it" method." I think one popular teacher said "start in the flesh, end in the spirit."
Believe you can simply because Jesus said you could, and Paul intimated that we all can not only pray in tongues but prophesy.
"Lord, you said that as a believer the sign of speaking new tongues follows me... therefore I now speak with new tongues."
Simple

Alithis · Aug 1, 2017

Didaskalos said:
Jesus said if you believe, then the sign of speaking in new tongues follows you.
Wise not to contradict the Lord.
You in fact DO speak with new tongues. All born again believers do. You are just looking for something other than what the NT refers to as new, or unknow, tongues.
First thing to do is to simply fall in line with Jesus, and agree that you in fact do speak with new tongues. Until we align ourselves with what he says... then we will walk around in dark and be constantly confused.
You DO speak with new tongues.
Period. Jesus said so.

Hope your not referring to just a new topic we talk about .

Alithis · Aug 1, 2017

Biblicist said:
As much as I can praise God that I am able to pray to Him in the Holy Spirit (tongues), where I know that the Holy Spirit prays through me to the Father in accordance with those things that I want him to intercede to the Father on, I know that he will absolutely never provide me or another person with an interpretation of what he has said.

I could not imagine being made privy to what would undoubtedly be very sensitive information, the 'inner most secrets of the heart'; how could I or another cope with knowing the deepest thoughts of another person. I would certainly never want to know such things nor would I ever want to be responsible for handling such personal and sensitive information; in fact, I seriously doubt that mortal man would be capable of doing so.

What the Holy Spirit knows about the deepest thoughts of another, these are matters that can only be communicated and addressed by both the Holy Spirit and the Father.

Sadly this is not a scriptural reply as he will give you wherever you ask For. But since it is not in a congregation setting none are going to require interpretation

Alithis · Aug 1, 2017

AlexDTX said:
Wrong doctrine. Also not wanting to take full responsibility for their choices. The trouble I have with your point is that you are saying that if you don't have the baptism of the Holy Spirit with the evidence of speaking in other tongues that you are not saved. That is not true. It simply means your faith is weaker because the baptism strengthens faith. Jesus told the disciples not to go until they had received the power from on high. The power is the increase in faith that the baptism grants. But a born again believer who has been taught wrong doctrine (ie that gifts of the Spirit ceased with the early church) is still saved.

Another aspect of why people reject the tongues is because of pride. Everyone wants to believe that they are right. If you don't speak in tongues then you will self justify. That does not mean we lose salvation, otherwise the born again legalists would not be saved, but they are, too. What it means is that self justification undermines the quality of experience that a believer will have with Christ. But the gift of salvation is complete. It is a finished work. The thief on the cross did not have the baptism of the Holy Spirit, nor any chance for walking with Jesus in life. He was not a disciple, yet he was promised salvation by Christ.

I won't continue discourse if you add things I didn't say in a way I didn't say them .
But how can a person claim to have eternal life if they have not received the spirit of life.

AlexDTX · Aug 1, 2017

Alithis said:
I won't continue discourse if you add things I didn't say in a way I didn't say them .
But how can a person claim to have eternal life if they have not received the spirit of life.

Anyone who is born again has the spirit of life. The baptism is a release of that spirit of life that empowers them. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, if so, I sincerely apologize. But it seemed like you were saying unless they spoke in tongues they are not saved. If you did say that then I categorically disagree.

Alithis · Aug 1, 2017

AlexDTX said:
Anyone who is born again has the spirit of life. The baptism is a release of that spirit of life that empowers them. Perhaps I am misunderstanding you, if so, I sincerely apologize. But it seemed like you were saying unless they spoke in tongues they are not saved. If you did say that then I categorically disagree.

People try to dissect it to much.it's not so complicated.

Repent .be baptised for the remission of your sin and you will recieve the promised Holy Spirit .

Your over interpreting what I'm saying .
Seperating ones into twos .

I'm_Sorry · Aug 1, 2017

Alithis said:
How do you know

I know

Around 5 years prior I was called.

In Faith during 2005 I approached the front of a Church (Church of Christ) and the pastor asked if I did anything wrong to God.

I said yes.

He then started praying and was calling the Holy Spirit to enter.

I felt Him enter and I surrendered.

The following night I was woken by this increasable love and joy that was so powerful my body couldn't handle it.

Change happened, when I approached sins I use to do, I suddenly found them to be terrible and was shown the truth of them.

I was water baptised not long after.

There have been other signs following the 2 baptisms.

Alithis · Aug 1, 2017

I'm_Sorry said:
I know

Around 5 years prior I was called.

In Faith during 2005 I approached the front of a Church (Church of Christ) and the pastor asked if I did anything wrong to God.

I said yes.

He then started praying and was calling the Holy Spirit to enter.

I felt Him enter and I surrendered.

The following night I was woken by this increasable love and joy that was so powerful my body couldn't handle it.

Change happened, when I approached sins I use to do, I suddenly found them to be terrible and was shown the truth of them.

I was water baptised not long after.

There have been other signs following the 2 baptisms.

I believe you. This is your testimony ,i have no reason to not believe you .

Couple more questions..1-Did you go on to continually increase in freedom from sin ?
2.did you know you can speak in tongues when you received the Holy Ghost as a sign that you have received him ..(just because you havnt done so is not a qualifier to say you cant)

trust God in this .

I'm_Sorry · Aug 1, 2017

Alithis said:
I believe you. This is your testimony ,i have no reason to not believe you .
Couple more questions..1-Did you go on to continually increase in freedom from sin ?
2.did you know you can speak in tongues when you received the Holy Ghost as a sign that you have received him ..(just because you havnt done so is not a qualifier to say you cant)
trust God in this .

Thank you

The enemy attacks me often to say I'm not a child of God.

Not saying you're attacking

He's prepared me to give testimony.

I didn't grow up in a religious family. God was hardly talked about.

I grew up in a rough environment among godlessness.

I always felt like a stranger to peoples natural incline to sin.

Regarding freedom, yes I increased until my wife left me and I back slid.

I never lost Faith nor His conviction during the back slide.

He taught me much during this (I found my new partner dead 12 months ago)

I've been in heavy Godly sorrow and repentance since.

He's setting me more and more free since that happened.

When I was born again I witnessed people speaking in tongues and I was wary because some of it appeared fake.

I lacked Faith in this area.

But He's preparing me to accept and understand.

I struggle to read and I didn't read His word much prior to the death of my partner.

All I do now is study Him and stay in prayer.

He's guiding me.

It's like He was putting me through some heavy testing.

I broke through with Him on one sin recently and trusted Him during a great temptation.

He showed me His power to set me free.

I'm like this woman:

Luke 7:45-50

I will Pray to God and ask Him for the sign of tongues.

He's preparing me

SavedByGrace3 · Aug 1, 2017

Faith is the evidence of things not seen.
Faith is the evidence of being baptized with the Holy Spirit.

Galatians 3:2 KJV
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?

I received the Spirit because He said so.
I started speaking in tongues because He said I could, and I have been.

Tongues are a sign, or indicator, of who is listening to us.
If people see us speaking in tongues and think we are crazy or drunk... it is just a sign that they are not learned.
If people see us speaking in tongues and understand what we are doing... they are learned.

If we prophesy, then even the unlearned know what is happening.

This really has nothing to do with what we are or what we are dong..it is a sign, or indicatior, of those who hear us. Are they are unbelievers or unlearned? How they react will tell us.

1 Corinthians 14:23 KJV
If therefore the whole church be come together into one place, and all speak with tongues, and there come in those that are unlearned, or unbelievers, will they not say that ye are mad?
1 Corinthians 14:24 KJV
But if all prophesy, and there come in one that believeth not, or one unlearned, he is convinced of all, he is judged of all:

All it is saying is that how people react to the crowd speaking in tongues reveals if they are unbelievers/ unlearned. Nothing more complicated than that.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 1, 2017

Alithis said:
It would appear so . but it's not quite the case .but it is the case that every one who has the holy spirit can speak in tongues and if not it can be simply
1demonic interference...after deliverence they speak in tongues
2 preset religious mind...they need to renew the mind
3 if he things like unbelief and unforgivness.

I would not have stated this a few years back.but now we have observed
That every one who truley comes to repentance and gets freed from the void of sin in Any form.. And is baptised in The holy Spirit..then speaks in tongues..
All of them . we were at first amazed by this but now we expect it to be so.
Those that believe ..these signs shall follow them ..

Paul asked the question in 1 Corinthians 14: "Do all speak in tongues?" He implies that not all believers have the ability, or if they have they don't use it. To say that a person has to be able to speak in tongues in order to be saved is adding works or performance to the blood of Christ which cleanses us from all sin and makes us acceptable to God through the righteousness of Christ. Peter's qualification for salvation which he said to the crowd in Acts 2 was that a person needed to believe that Jesus is the Son of God and that He rose from the dead. Peter did not add anything to that. I had a spirited argument with a guy once who maintained that anyone who didn't speak in tongues was not saved. I told him that he was blaspheming the blood of Christ by putting the blood of Christ in second place to a spiritual gift. I still believe that.

Now having said that, I firmly believe that when a person is born again he or she is indwelt with the Holy Spirit and has the ability to pray in tongues. It depends on what he or she believes about it. Unfortunately there are so many hockey pucks who listen to the devil's views about tongues and teaches others what the devil wants them to believe, instead of promoting faith in Christ and the infilling of the Holy Spirit to enter into the ability to pray in tongues.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 1, 2017

I'm_Sorry said:
I'm born again and I don't speak in tongues.

1 Corinthians 12:8-11

8 For to one is given through the Spirit the word of wisdom; and to another the word of knowledge, according to the same Spirit: 9 to another faith, in the same Spirit; and to another gifts of healings, in the one Spirit; 10 and to another workings of miracles; and to another prophecy; and to another discernings of spirits; to another [divers] kinds of tongues; and to another the interpretation of tongues: 11 but all these worketh the one and the same Spirit, dividing to each one severally even as he will.

Do you want to?

I'm_Sorry · Aug 1, 2017

Oscarr said:
Do you want to?

I want anything God desires for me.

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 1, 2017

I'm_Sorry said:
Thank you

The enemy attacks me often to say I'm not a child of God.

Not saying you're attacking He's prepared me to give testimony.

I didn't grow up in a religious family. God was hardly talked about.

I grew up in a rough environment among godlessness.

I always felt like a stranger to peoples natural incline to sin.

Regarding freedom, yes I increased until my wife left me and I back slid.

I never lost Faith nor His conviction during the back slide.

He taught me much during this (I found my new partner dead 12 months ago)

I've been in heavy Godly sorrow and repentance since.

He's setting me more and more free since that happened.

When I was born again I witnessed people speaking in tongues and I was wary because some of it appeared fake.

I lacked Faith in this area.

But He's preparing me to accept and understand.

I struggle to read and I didn't read His word much prior to the death of my partner.

All I do now is study Him and stay in prayer.

He's guiding me.

It's like He was putting me through some heavy testing.

I broke through with Him on one sin recently and trusted Him during a great temptation.

He showed me His power to set me free.

I'm like this woman:

Luke 7:45-50

I will Pray to God and ask Him for the sign of tongues.

He's preparing me

In the same way as you used the four steps of faith to come to Christ, you use the same principle to enter into praying in tongues.
1. You believe it is God's will for you.
2. You ask for it
3. You receive it by faith.
4. You do what you couldn't do before.

Faith is an active thing. You have to start it off. Smith Wigglesworth says that he starts off in the flesh and the Spirit takes over. In the area of tongues, you start off making up the language in faith and then fluency comes as the Holy Spirit causes the inspiration and the words to flow through you. Some people believe in waiting to somehow God causes their mouth to move, and as a consequence they will be waiting for the rest of their lives without it happening because God requires faith on our part before He will step in. Remember Moses at the Red sea. There he was on his knees praying for God to do something. God told him to get the heck up off his knees and use the rod in his hands and hold it up over the sea. Moses had to do something in faith and God parted the Red sea. It is the same with anything that God give us. Without faith, which is actively doing something, it is impossible to please God. If you want God to give you a prayer language, you have to start making up the language in faith, it is like hold your spiritual rod over the spiritual Red sea. As a result, you will find yourself speaking a language that will flow out of you and then wonder where those words are coming from. I have got people to speak my tongue words to get started and then told them to keep speaking and don't stop. Often they have spoken a language dramatically different to mine! On one occasion, the guy spoke such a beautiful language that we all fell down laughing. Don't believe those who say that making up a language will give you a counterfeit. That's what the devil is saying. I have been praying in tongues for 50 years and have been assisting others for at east 45 of them and all those I have assisted have spoken genuine tongues. I have even done it by PM on this forum and seen some great results. You see, we limit God by our unbelief by waiting for God to do something, when God is waiting for us to activate our faith.

I'm_Sorry · Aug 1, 2017

Oscarr said:
In the same way as you used the four steps of faith to come to Christ, you use the same principle to enter into praying in tongues.
1. You believe it is God's will for you.
2. You ask for it
3. You receive it by faith.
4. You do what you couldn't do before.

Faith is an active thing. You have to start it off. Smith Wigglesworth says that he starts off in the flesh and the Spirit takes over. In the area of tongues, you start off making up the language in faith and then fluency comes as the Holy Spirit causes the inspiration and the words to flow through you. Some people believe in waiting to somehow God causes their mouth to move, and as a consequence they will be waiting for the rest of their lives without it happening because God requires faith on our part before He will step in. Remember Moses at the Red sea. There he was on his knees praying for God to do something. God told him to get the heck up off his knees and use the rod in his hands and hold it up over the sea. Moses had to do something in faith and God parted the Red sea. It is the same with anything that God give us. Without faith, which is actively doing something, it is impossible to please God. If you want God to give you a prayer language, you have to start making up the language in faith, it is like hold your spiritual rod over the spiritual Red sea. As a result, you will find yourself speaking a language that will flow out of you and then wonder where those words are coming from. I have got people to speak my tongue words to get started and then told them to keep speaking and don't stop. Often they have spoken a language dramatically different to mine! On one occasion, the guy spoke such a beautiful language that we all fell down laughing. Don't believe those who say that making up a language will give you a counterfeit. That's what the devil is saying. I have been praying in tongues for 50 years and have been assisting others for at east 45 of them and all those I have assisted have spoken genuine tongues. I have even done it by PM on this forum and seen some great results. You see, we limit God by our unbelief by waiting for God to do something, when God is waiting for us to activate our faith.

Thank you brother.

I understand what you're saying.

I will repent of my past disbelief and strep out in Faith.

While we are here on these things.

I received this recently during all the pain and suffering I was under post my partners death.

I believe it was from God but I received a dismissal from a non charismatic believer.

------------------------

Here is a vision I received earlier in the year, I believe its ok to share as it is described in Ezekiel and Revelation.

I received it when I was praying and meditating on the Lords Prayer.

Specifically it came during, "for yours is the Kingdom, the Power the Glory forever Amen."

""The crown of righteousness over His co-heirs. It's like a rainbow in colour and appearance at it's base (covenant, mercy, salvation, grace, forgiveness, purified) and becomes brighter and whiter and much more intense to behold until I'm forced to look away because of God's Glory. The crown is linked with the Spirit so when you look upon it the Spirit is moved and it becomes more intense as you look further up it until the flesh can no longer behold His Glory."

I understand I had a vision of a person in the kingdom because the light described in Ezekiel and Revelation (rainbow) is what I saw as the base of the crown a son was adorned with.

He was staring straight at me and let me behold him, I looked further up the crown until the Glory overcame me.

Heavenly Glory (light) was tied to the spirit and the flesh cannot behold it so much without needing to look away.

Well my flesh is that way ATM.

Also the person was adorned as a king holding an iron hammer with the left hand supported with his right.

I didn't know Ezekiel's vision nor did I pay attention to John's vision until now and I had the vision earlier in the year.

Also when I had this vision It felt like home in a weird eastern way (it was strange but it was very right).

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 1, 2017

Didaskalos said:
There is a school of thought that that says that speaking in tongues can be achieved by anyone, simply by using the "fake it til you make it" method." I think one popular teacher said "start in the flesh, end in the spirit."
Believe you can simply because Jesus said you could, and Paul intimated that we all can not only pray in tongues but prophesy.
"Lord, you said that as a believer the sign of speaking new tongues follows me... therefore I now speak with new tongues."
Simple

I have used that method for 45 years. All the ones I have assisted have gone to fluency very quickly and speaking in beautiful languages. I have been very careful to take them through the four steps of faith first so they are using scriptural steps to know that what they are doing is in faith and not 'faking it'. If someone is just told to make up a language without going through the steps of faith that I have outlined in my previous post then they may be doing it just in the flesh and not through faith. I believe that doing the steps of faith is best in private before God alone and not under pressure from anyone else. Then the person is dealing with God, and therefore after going through the first 3 steps, when he makes up the language he is doing it in faith before God and the Holy Spirit starts to flow through him.

Just waiting for God to somehow move a person's mouth is not faith at all. It is presumption, and that is the sin of unbelief. Why do we teach that in order to get God to work with us we have to step out in faith, but when it comes to tongues we ignore it and wait for some trembling of the mouth and tongue to happen? If people are waiting for that, the devil is sure to oblige. I believe in cold-blooded faith, and when a person is alone in his or her quiet time with God, there is no emotional pressure or hyping up. When I assist people, I sit them down and explain the process over coffee in a quiet place. Then I take them through the steps, and then encourage them to act out their faith. I have never had a failure in seeing that person speak in genuine tongues. I think after 50 years in the faith and in the Spirit I can tell the difference between the genuine and the counterfeit, don't you think?

Presbyterian Continuist · Aug 1, 2017

I'm_Sorry said:
Thank you brother.

I understand what you're saying.

I will repent of my past disbelief and strep out in Faith.

While we are here on these things.

I received this recently during all the pain and suffering I was under post my partners death.

I believe it was from God but I received a dismissal from a non charismatic believer.

------------------------

Here is a vision I received earlier in the year, I believe its ok to share as it is described in Ezekiel and Revelation.

I received it when I was praying and meditating on the Lords Prayer.

Specifically it came during, "for yours is the Kingdom, the Power the Glory forever Amen."

""The crown of righteousness over His co-heirs. It's like a rainbow in colour and appearance at it's base (covenant, mercy, salvation, grace, forgiveness, purified) and becomes brighter and whiter and much more intense to behold until I'm forced to look away because of God's Glory. The crown is linked with the Spirit so when you look upon it the Spirit is moved and it becomes more intense as you look further up it until the flesh can no longer behold His Glory."

I understand I had a vision of a person in the kingdom because the light described in Ezekiel and Revelation (rainbow) is what I saw as the base of the crown a son was adorned with.

He was staring straight at me and let me behold him, I looked further up the crown until the Glory overcame me.

Heavenly Glory (light) was tied to the spirit and the flesh cannot behold it so much without needing to look away.

Well my flesh is that way ATM.

Also the person was adorned as a king holding an iron hammer with the left hand supported with his right.

I didn't know Ezekiel's vision nor did I pay attention to John's vision until now and I had the vision earlier in the year.

Also when I had this vision It felt like home in a weird eastern way (it was strange but it was very right).

This is why it is best to do your transactions with God in private. Then you are getting information from Him directly. Be like Paul who built the foundation of his faith in isolation in Arabia where he said that he conferred not with flesh and blood. Paul got his revelations in the quiet place with God outside of the influence of others. John the Baptist was the same. He got his mission while in the wilderness with God. God revealed Himself to me in the middle of a golf course at 11pm. This is how I see God as totally separate from the Church and I can walk away from any church and not feel that I am walking away from God. Basing your faith on God and His Word as your first priority saves you from being blown around by every wind of people's views and opinions. I have often, in the face of criticism, gone to God and asked, "Do you agree with that person?" Often God has said, "no!" and I have gone on my way rejoicing. Don't believe anyone who says that God has spoken to them about you. God does not do that. Most of the time when people do that, they are trying to control you. You have the Holy Spirit inside of you to guide you into all truth. You don't need self-righteous, controlling hockey pucks to teach you how to walk in the Spirit. Good leaders and disciplers will always respect your individual walk with God and they would never get between you and Him. Bad ones will try and say they are God's mouthpiece for you. Often they are the devil's mouthpiece in order to wreck your faith. It is best to safety ignore those trainwrecks and base your faith and walk on God and His word alone and test what anyone says (including me) by what God says in His Word to you.

Tongues..a sign.

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