I wasn't speaking of you or anyone else specifically. I am glad you read it though, so do I.
We should spend more time agreeing on what we share as Christians! Places like this focus too much on differences.
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I wasn't speaking of you or anyone else specifically. I am glad you read it though, so do I.
None of those verses give any support for the Catholic doctrine of Purgatory. Those verses are speaking of how the Old Covenant pointed to Christ, types and shadows of things to come, because we know that animal sacrifices are not in any way able to save anyone, but those sacrifices pointed to the one time, and all sufficient sacrifice to come, the spotless Lamb of God Who takes away the sins of the world.
As for confessing our sins, we do so because we know our High Priest in heaven intercedes for us, not because we lose salvation when we sin, and not because the sacrifice of Christ is not finished or is not sufficient, but because we know we can come boldly before the throne of grace and ask for help in any time of need, and that we can cast all our cares on Him because He cares for us.
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.When we are saved, we are born again. We are not unborn every time we mess up.
Yes, but the merits from our Lord's passion are not are not applied to sins that you have not yet committed and repented of. You seem to think that by making a sincere profession of faith, the merits from our Lord's passion are instantly applied to future sins that you have not even committed yet. But such a view cannot make sense of the the Scripture verses that I cited above. If what you seem to believe were true, there would be no need for Jesus to live to intercede before the father to save us. And there would be no need for the (plural) heavenly sacrifices referred to in Hebrews 9:23.Also, we can know from Scripture that there is no other sacrifice for sin but that which Christ already offered on thecross, once for all.
We should spend more time agreeing on what we share as Christians! Places like this focus too much on differences.
I see this claim a lot but no one ever cites a credible source.Seems like he changed his mind about what he started!
When there were 3 Popes at one time, each excommincating the others, which magsterium was the correct one?Our creed is sola Dei verbum - only the word of God.
Which recognises that sola scriptura is provably false, and the meaning has to be carried by tradition. ( which means the true faith handed down) and authority to bind and loose on disputes. All stated in scripture.
Take a simple example.
Salavation.
Some believe OSAS
Some believe saved can lose it.
Some believe not saved till the race is run, until which the jury is out. I say jury meaning a jury of one! Our Lord.
Some believe in double predestination, so nothing you do can matter, and you were saved before you were born. Or not.
They are all mutually exclusive , only one is truth.
OSAS is roundly discounted by all the church fathers fro. The first who spoke against it as a heresy, and it certainly was not the faith handed down.
It doesn't stop many Protestants believing they can interpret the bible how they like, including OSAS
Some even reintroduce concepts long ago deemed hetetical like Pentecostals and modalism.
Net result there are at least five exclusive Protestant beliefs on
Eucharist
Baptism
Salvation.
Sacraments.
Marriage
Church
LGBT
Which councils
What is scripture even,
Role and power of clergy.
Purgation , purgatory or non.
Intercession of saints
The list is endless.
All because all of you discount the method our Lord put in place for doctrine, succession and authority, the magisterium that tells you what is right
And all swear blind as you do only you know the " right" doctrine. 10000 mutually exclusive variants prove you are WRONG. There is but one truth. You cannot make up your own, or interpret scripture as you will.
Especially when there were 3 Popes :You are mistaken if you think all Catholics agree on those things you just listed. There is doubtless just as much division within the Catholic Church as Protestant churches. Just because it seems united on the surface, does not mean it actually is.
In fact, even the Popes throughout history couldn't agree with each other.
Especially when there were 3 Popes :
"For nearly half a century, the Church was split into two or three obediences that excommunicated one another, so that every Catholic lived under excommunication by one pope or another, and, in the last analysis, no one could say with certainty which of the contenders had right on his side. The Church no longer offered certainty of salvation; she had become questionable in her whole objective form--the true Church, the true pledge of salvation, had to be sought outside the institution.
"It is against this background of a profoundly shaken ecclesial consciousness that we are to understand that Luther, in the conflict between his search for salvation and the tradition of the Church, ultimately came to experience the Church, not as the guarantor, but as the adversary of salvation. (Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, head of the Sacred Congregation of the Doctrine of the Faith for the Church of Rome, “Principles of Catholic Theology,” trans. by Sister Mary Frances McCarthy, S.N.D. (San Francisco: Ignatius, 1989) p.196).
We should spend more time agreeing on what we share as Christians! Places like this focus too much on differences.
Here some Scripture for you.
18 Whereupon neither the first testament was dedicated without blood.
19 For when Moses had spoken every precept to all the people according to the law, he took the blood of calves and of goats, with water, and scarlet wool, and hyssop, and sprinkled both the book, and all the people,
20 Saying, This is the blood of the testament which God hath enjoined unto you.
21 Moreover he sprinkled with blood both the tabernacle, and all the vessels of the ministry.
22 And almost all things are by the law purged with blood; and without shedding of blood is no remission.
23 It was therefore necessary that the patterns of things in the heavens should be purified with these; but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these.
24 For Christ is not entered into the holy places made with hands, which are the figures of the true; but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us:
25 Nor yet that he should offer himself often, as the high priest entereth into the holy place every year with blood of others;
26 For then must he often have suffered since the foundation of the world: but now once in the end of the world hath he appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of himself.
27 And as it is appointed unto men once to die, but after this the judgment:
28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.
In your opinion, why does verse 23 state "better sacrifices" instead of "a better sacrifice"? In other words, why does the author use the plural, "sacrifices" rather than the singular "sacrifice"?
When you pray, why do you ask God to forgive your sins, if all of your past, present, and future sins were already forgiven by God at the moment that you were saved? Why is it that you pray for what you believe you have already received?
Not hard to find:Give me your definition.
And I will point out the logical flaw in it.
That's quite humorous as you just provided your own personal interpretation!But there is the problem. YOU cannot interpret scripture, how you like, which is quite clear that nothing impure can enter " the new Jerusalem" . Revelations 21
Such is the "unbroken apostolic succession".
23 Thus it was necessary for the copies of the heavenly things to be purified with these rites, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has entered, not into holy places made with hands, which are copies of the true things, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God on our behalf.Are you having difficulty answering my question? You wrote a lot of things, but you did not answer the question.
Why are "better" sacrifices (plural) applied to the heavenly things?
23 The former priests were many in number, because they were prevented by death from continuing in office, 24 but he holds his priesthood permanently, because he continues forever. 25 Consequently, he is able to save to the uttermost those who draw near to God through him, since he always lives to make intercession for them.
The text does not state that Jesus intercedes lives to make intercession for you so that you can "ask for help in time of need" or "cast all of your cares on him". It states that "he is able to save to the uttermost . . . since he always lives to make intercession for them." What is Jesus saving you from? And if you do not lose your salvation when you sin, why is it that Jesus needs to intercede to save you?
Do you see how your theology makes no sense?
26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, 27 but a fearful expectation of judgment, and a fury of fire that will consume the adversaries. 28 Anyone who has set aside the law of Moses dies without mercy on the evidence of two or three witnesses. 29 How much worse punishment, do you think, will be deserved by the one who has trampled underfoot the Son of God, and has profaned the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has outraged the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know him who said, “Vengeance is mine; I will repay.” And again, “The Lord will judge his people.” 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
Yes, but the merits from our Lord's passion are not are not applied to sins that you have not yet committed and repented of. You seem to think that by making a sincere profession of faith, the merits from our Lord's passion are instantly applied to future sins that you have not even committed yet. But such a view cannot make sense of the the Scripture verses that I cited above. If what you seem to believe were true, there would be no need for Jesus to live to intercede before the father to save us. And there would be no need for the (plural) heavenly sacrifices referred to in Hebrews 9:23.
Unbroken apostolic succession involves all bishops, not just the bishop of Rome. Further, the Papal Schism didn't interrupt that succession.
The Papal Schism was significant and telling for a lot of reasons; but this isn't one of them.
-CryptoLutheran
I do find it interesting many Catholic posters assume Luther is some sort of "pope" for the Reformation. But alas, it is always good to revisit what he actually said in full context. As we should Pope Francis as the claim is he is grossly misquoted by the media daily. So I agree let's be precise.It is also reasonable to conclude that Luther himself believed in purgatory, he questioned aspects of indulgencies, not the state. Luther's core beliefs remained very catholic.
Your assertion fails. Why? Because Christ and His apostles proved truth claims on the very Scriptures in both Word and Power.Which is easily disproven
You say this of your highest and so you deem necessary truth:
" all truth necessary for our salvation and spiritual life is taught either explicitly or implicitly in Scripture."
Since scripture nowhere contains your highest truth, by your own definitiin , it does not contain ALL ecessary truth, it omits the one you hold highest!
QED I have proven your definition logically false.
Worse still, scripture is not silent. It actively disagrees.
It says " the foundation of truth is the church" - so is outside scripture.
So proving your definition wrong again.
Protestants don't seem to get simple logic.
The statements A " all that is in scripture is ( choose your own adjective ) truth"
And B " all ( choose your own adjective) truth is in scripture"
Are not a logical equivalence,
I say choose your own adjective, e.g. Necessary because however you do that creates even more logically disprovable problems for B
As a scientist I cannot accept the cognitive dissonance and logical falsehood implied in sola scriptura, it is part of what led me back from Protestant to evangelical to Rome.
Your assertion fails. Why? Because Christ and His apostles proved truth claims on the very Scriptures in both Word and Power.
We can start with 2Tim. 3:14-17: “things which thou hast learned and hast been assured of” refers to the general body of Scriptural Truth that was conveyed by his example and words, and which statement is followed by the affirmation of the Scripture as being wholly inspired and able to make one “perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.”
It is by Scripture that Truth claims are to be examined and established by, as Scripture is the only transcendent, substantive body of Truth that is affirmed to be wholly inspired of God.
But don't take my word but the facts:
Partial list of references to Divine written revelation being written (Scripture) and references to it, substantiating the claim that as they were written, the written word became the standard for obedience and in establishing truth claims. In full, the New Testament is stated to have approximately 250 express Old Testament quotations and more than 1,000 if one includes indirect or partial quotations, while another counts 275 direct quotes and at least 600 allusions to the Old (view many of both here. Baker's Evangelical Dictionary reports "the fourth edition of the United Bible Societies' Greek Testament (1993) lists 343 Old Testament quotations in the New Testament, as well as no fewer than 2, 309 allusions and verbal parallels. (Old Testament in the New Testament, the - Baker's Evangelical Dictionary of Biblical Theology Online)
Many of which tabulations may count those in duplicate accounts. The following list does not include all of the quotations and rarely includes simple allusions to Scripture (versus clear references such as to the law), but supplies a multiplicity of viewable (place mouse over reference, and if you cannot see them use a different browser, like Firefox) references to what was written or quotes thereof, including internal references within each Testament to Scripture (not just the New referencing the Old):
Ex. 17:14; 24:4,7,12; 31:18; 32:15; 34:1,27; 35:29; Lv. 8:36; 10:10,11; 26:46; Num. 4:5,37,45,49; 9:23; 10:13; 15:23; 16:40; 27:23; 33:2; 36:13; Dt. 4:13; 5:22; 9:10; 10:2,4; 17:18,19; 27:3,8; 28:58,61; 29:20,21,27; 30:10; 31:9,11,19,22,26; 33:4; Josh. 1:7,8; 8:31,32,34,35; 10:13; 14:2; 20:2; 21:2; 22:5,9; 23:6; 24:26; Jdg. 3:4; 1Sam. 10:25; 2Sam. 1:8; 1Ki. 2:3;8:53,56; 12:22; 2Ki. 1:8; 14:6; 17:37; 22:8,10,13,16; 23:2,21; 1Ch. 16:40; 17:3,9; 2Ch. 23:18; 25:4; 31:3; 33:8;34:13-16,18,19,21,24; 34:30; 35:6,12; Ezra 3:2,4; 6:18; Neh. 6:6; 8:1,3,8,15,18; 9:3,14; 10:34,36; 13:1; Psa. 40:7; Is. 8:20; 30:8; 34:16; 65:6; Jer. 17:1; 25:13; 30:2; 36:2,6,10,18,27,28; 51:60; Dan. 9:11,13; Hab. 2:2;
Mat. 1:22; 2:5,15,17,18; 3:3; 4:4,6,7,10,14,15; 5:17,18,33,38,43; 8:4,17; 9:13; 11:10; 12:3,5,17-21,40,41; 13:14,15,35; 14:3,4,7-9;19:4,5,17-19; 21:4,5,13,16,42; 22:24,29,31,32,37,39,43,44; 23:35;24:15; 26:24,31,54,56;27:9,10,35; Mark 1:2,44; 7:3,10; 9:12,13; 10:4,5; 11:17; 12:10,19,24,26 13:14; 14:21,47,49; 15:28; Lk. 2:22,23.24;3:4,5,6; 4:4,6-8,10,12,16,17,18,20,25-27; 5:14; 7:27; 8:10; 10:26,27; 16:29,31; 18:20,31; 19:46; 20:17,18, 28,37,42,43; 22:37; 23:30; 24:25.27,32,44,45,46; Jn. 1:45; 2:17,22; 3:14; 5:39,45-47; 6:31,45; 7:19,22,23,38,42,51,52; 8:5,17; 9:26; 10:34,35; 12:14,15,38-41; 15:25; 17:12; 19:24,28,36,37; 20:9,31; 21:24; Acts 1:20; 2:16-21,25-28,34,35; 3:22,23,25; 4:11,25,26; 7:3,7,27,28,32,33,37,40,42,43,49,50,53; 8:28,30,32,33;10:43;13:15,27,29,33,39; 15:5,15-17,21; 17:2,11; 18:13.24,28; 21:20,24; 22:12; 23:3,5; 24:14; 26:22; 28:23,26,27; Rom 1:2,17; 2:10-21,31; 4:3,7,17,18,23,24; 5:13; 7:1-3,7,12,14,16; 8:4,36; 9:4,9,12,13,15,17,25-29,33; 10:11,15,19; 11:2-4,8,9,26,27; 12:19,20; 13:8-10; 14:11; 15:3,4,9-12,21; 16:16,26,27; 1Cor. 1:19,31; 2:9; 3:19,20; 4:6; 6:16; 7:39; 9:9,10; 10:7,11,26,28; 14:21,34; 15:3,4,32,45,54,55; 2Cor. 1:13; 2:3,4; 3:7,15; 4:13; 6:2;16; 7:12; 8:15; 9:9; 10:17; 13:1; Gal. 3:6,8,10-13; 4:22,27,30; 5:14; Eph. 3:3,4; (cf. 2Pt. 3:16); Eph. 4:8; 5:31; 6:2,3; (cf. Dt. 5:16); Col. 4:16; 1Thes. 5:27; 1Tim. 5:18; 2Tim. 3:14,16,17; Heb. 1:5,7-13; 2:5-8,12,13; 3:7-11,15; 4:3,4,7; 5:5,6; 6:14; 7:17,21,28; 8:5,8-13; 9:20; 10:5-916,17,28,30,37; 11:18; 12:5,6,12,26,29; 13:5,6,22; James 2:8,23; 4:5; 1Pet. 1:16,24,25; 2:6,7,22; 3:10-12; 5:5,12; 2Pet. 1:20,21; 2:22; 3:1,15,16; 1Jn. 1:4; 2:1,7,8,12,13,21; 5:13; Rev. 1:3,11,19; 2:1,8,12,18; 3:1,7,12,14; 14:13; 19:9; 21:5; 22:6,7;10,18,19
I guess, what I'm most concerned about is the Gospel and how we are saved and can know we are secure in our salvation. By grace, through faith, not of works. Saved by believing on Jesus Christ, (the will of the Father), Who by Himself purged our sins and now sits at the right hand of the Father in Heaven. Our Great High Priest and only Mediator.
God bless
No! There were ALWAYS vegetables! The Rule of St. Augustine says,
Fasting and abstinence are recommended only in proportion to the physical strength of the individual, and when the saint speaks of obligatory fasting he specifies that such as are unable to wait for the evening or ninth hour meal may eat at noon. The nuns partook of very frugal fare and, in all probability, abstained from meat. The sick and infirm are objects of the most tender care and solicitude, and certain concessions are made in favor of those who, before entering religion, led a life of luxury. During meals some instructive matter is to be read aloud to the nuns. Although the Rule of St. Augustine contains but a few precepts, it dwells at great length upon religious virtues and the ascetic life, this being characteristic of all primitive Rules.