Conditional Immortality Supports Annihilationion, Refutes Eternal Conscious Torment and Universalism

ClementofA

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Thanks. I'm still not sure I understand some parts of your view. I may have missed something you wrote "above". I've tried to read all the comments, including those that come in when I'm asleep or away, but I may have missed some. I think your view is probably that the unrighteous who are cast into the lake of fire are being purified or else receiving more revelation or something like that so that they eventually do repent, accept Christ, are forgiven, and are allowed out of the lake of fire and into God's presence with the rest of the redeemed. I think this is likely your view, but I don't want to just assume it. This is the view Robin Parry presents in The Evangelical Universalist, but Parry points out that not all Universalists share his specific type of Universalism. Can you set me straight if this does not indeed represent your view?

I don't have an opinion on Parry's perspective re what occurs in the LOF. As you said there are different viewpoints on how that plays out in universalist thought. Early Church Father, Origen, for example, spoke of the possibility of it taking many ages before the wicked in the LOF were finally saved. I prefer not to speculate on things that Scripture is silent about or not clear on. Another UR viewpoint quite different from that of Parry's re the LOF is the following where the wicked in the LOF are temporarily annihilated before being raised "in Christ": As in Adam all die
 
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stuart lawrence

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No, I'm trying to share with you the reasons why I see conditional immortality in Scripture, because I'm interested in persuading people (you and the other readers) of my viewpoint.

I see that you're uninterested in persuading anyone; all you've done this entire time is repeat your opinion, and state a very negative and biased opinion about me. You've given no evidence, and failed to address, or even mention, any point of the evidence I've brought up; further, as our discussion's gone on, you've stopped making what used to be your main claim, that the Bible teaches that the wicked will live forever separated from God.

You're entitled to your opinion, and I can't change it. But let everyone see the facts: this is the only passage in the entire Bible that you've kept presenting as evidence for your case, and you refuse to discuss why you think it supports your view, while I've given detailed discussions of the passage and its context, as well as other passages that teach the same things I'm telling you.

You call me "desperate", but you're the one who's relying on only a single verse to support their doctrine, and you're the one who's refused to actually discuss and put their opinions up for judgment.
Why are you still posting to me?
Are you trying to convince yourself of what you say? I mean that sincerely.
Ive stopped making the claim the wicked will live forever separated from God? How do you reach that conclusion? I've gone on stating it!
Absolutely, I'm just quoting one verse. It's all I need, it goes to the heart of the matter and plainly states the truth of it. I know the way these debates work. People want to get away from what scripture plainly proves and do exegesis of other scripture in order to overturn the plain word that proves them wrong.
I'm not going to be party to help you do that. A scripture quoting contest at length when I have the scripture I need is frankly a waste of time. I have discussed a few points with others, but am not prepared to keep doing it:

Outside (the city the new heaven, the new Jerusalem) are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolators and everyone who loves and practices falsehood
Rev22:15

The new heaven/ the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven immediatley after the final judgement/ the last day of this present earth. It's all over. And in the new Jerusalem there will be no more, death, mourning, crying or pain. And God will there dwell with his people. So those who exist outside the city, live apart from Gods presence, they do not cease to exist.
Now, why should you be able to ignore the plainly written word, and expect me to accept your exegesis( which must be faulty) that seeks to overturn it?
If you want in depth discussion if other verses, there are others in this thread happy to discuss them with you, put them before them.
This conversation is going nowhere. Better to end it in my view
 
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William Tanksley Jr

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Does not really address my question does it? I think I can safely say that every rational person knows they are going to die. There is nothing anyone can do to prevent their physical death.


That's precisely what God says about the final punishment due to sin -- that everyone knows it's God's righteous decree that all who do such things deserve to die, for example. God also says that He's the only one who can save us. Paul says that without the resurrection, those who die "have already perished," and in fact "died in their sins." Jesus said that those who believe in Him, "though he die, yet shall he live."

What I don't get is that you say those things as though you aren't aware you're precisely describing what the Bible says about what God promises to save us from. The apostles preaching in Acts never had to go into detail on final punishment, because everyone knows the penalty of sin is death, and they already know what death is. The only time they mentioned final punishment was in Acts 3, where they told some Jews that anyone who rejected Christ would be "utterly destroyed from among the people."

My question was if death is the final end how would dead people know or be concerned what happened to their bodies after they are dead?

Job 21 asked the same question. His answer was that in order to make things right, the wicked would have to see their destruction "with their own eyes." It wasn't enough that they be destroyed peacefully; they would have to be resurrected and THEN be destroyed knowing that their destruction was different from that of the righteous.

Better yet is Psalm 73. The author again asks the same question -- why do the wicked live in wealth and die in peace? But unlike Job, he goes to the tabernacle, and hears the answer. Someday God will rise up in wrath, and those dead wicked people will suffer for what they've done -- and then God will sweep them away like a dream when one awakens.

Your question is good, but the Bible answers it specifically and clearly. The answer is that death IS the final fate of the wicked, at the final judgment. Before that things look unjust; but at that judgment all the secrets will be revealed, and every action judged. Then the wicked will be removed like a dream.


I have no idea what you mean by "non conditional immortality" but I can assure that nothing I believe originates in any lie by Satan!

"Non conditional immortality" is what universalists and eternal torment believers have in common -- that all people, righteous and unrighteous, will live forever and will not die.


Yes there were different beliefs among the Jews one of those beliefs was in a place of eternal fiery punishment for the wicked which the Jews called both Gehinnom and sheol.

Correct. Your argument that there was only one belief (in eternal torment) and that Jesus could only be talking about that is therefore invalid. In fact the Jews of His time were very diverse, and we should not simply assume any specific view without evidence.

But Jesus was incredibly specific; He said that God would kill and then throw into gehenna, and He said that gehenna is the valley of corpses pictured in Isaiah 66:24, where their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched. He never said of Gehenna anything that hints at consciousness. His "gnashing teeth" sayings are not about gehenna, but always about the place and Day of Judgment.
 
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St_Worm2

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David, you ask good questions, and provide good Scriptural support for the questions you ask.

Annihilationism leaves room for varying degrees of punishment. This is because we believe the lost will eventually be annihilated. Either before they are completely destroyed, or perhaps during the process of being destroyed, I believe that they will indeed suffer consciously. And this suffering can vary depending on factors such as their sins and how much exposure they had to God's truth. I definitely believe that punishment will be proportional in some ways to the sins committed.

Hi Mark (and @Chris Date too :)), while "eventually annihilated" solves a lot of problems, it only does so if it's true, yes ;)

I realize you can argue for an extended stay (so to speak) in the Lake of Fire (that, in fact, is exactly what Christian orthodoxy has always said is true, an "extended stay" w/o end), but where does the Bible tell us that the reprobate is judged, condemned, thrown into the Lake of Fire, and then annihilated sometime later?

In fact, how would that work?? Isn't THAT the very thing you are arguing for where the Lake of Fire is concerned, that those who go there are annihilated/burned up upon entering there?

Here's one more question (if you don't mind). Death results from sin, but we are "spotted" lambs who can never make restitution for our sins on the basis of our deaths alone (only the Spotless Lamb Himself can do that on our behalf). So, if the reprobate is annihilated in the Lake of Fire, who will pay the debt they still owe to God?

Thanks!

In Christ,
David
 
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Der Alte

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Job 21 asked the same question. His answer was that in order to make things right, the wicked would have to see their destruction "with their own eyes." It wasn't enough that they be destroyed peacefully; they would have to be resurrected and THEN be destroyed knowing that their destruction was different from that of the righteous.
Better yet is Psalm 73. The author again asks the same question -- why do the wicked live in wealth and die in peace? But unlike Job, he goes to the tabernacle, and hears the answer. Someday God will rise up in wrath, and those dead wicked people will suffer for what they've done -- and then God will sweep them away like a dream when one awakens.
Another out-of-context proof text which does not say what you claim.
KJV Psa 73:20 As the dream of one awakening, O Lord, in thy city thou wilt despise their image.
NIV Psa 73:20
(20) They are like a dream when one awakes; when you arise, Lord, you will despise them as fantasies.
JPS Psa 73:20
(20) As a dream when one awaketh, so, O Lord, when Thou arousest Thyself, Thou wilt despise their semblance.
Where does it say God will sweep them away like a dream?
Psalms 73:27-28
(27) For, behold, they that remove themselves far from thee shall perish: thou hast destroyed every one that goes a whoring from thee.
(28) But it is good for me to cleave close to God, to put my trust in the Lord; that I may proclaim all thy praises in the gates of the daughter of Sion.
Your proof text is past tense, "thou hast destroyed every one that goes a whoring from thee."
Your question is good, but the Bible answers it specifically and clearly. The answer is that death IS the final fate of the wicked, at the final judgment. Before that things look unjust; but at that judgment all the secrets will be revealed, and every action judged. Then the wicked will be removed like a dream.
I'm still waiting for that "specifically and clearly" and "removed like a dream."
"Non conditional immortality" is what universalists and eternal torment believers have in common -- that all people, righteous and unrighteous, will live forever and will not die.
There is a difference between a conscience awareness in sheol/hades and Zoe Aionion i.e. life eternal. There are three Greek words translated "life" in the NT "Zoe,""bios" and "pneuma" Only "zoe" is ever used with "life." See e.g. Isaiah 14:9-11, Ezekiel 32:18-22, Ezekiel 32:30-31, Luke 16:22-24, for dead people in sheol and hades moving, speaking etc.
Correct. Your argument that there was only one belief (in eternal torment) and that Jesus could only be talking about that is therefore invalid.
I said no such thing! I have always found that it helps to actually read a post before responding to it.
In fact the Jews of His time were very diverse, and we should not simply assume any specific view without evidence.
I never said there were not other views. I did not assume anything I provided evidence from three Jewish sources, Jewish Encyclopedia, Encyclopedia Judaica and the Talmud which documented everything I said. There's a bunch of assuming going on here but it ain't me.
But Jesus was incredibly specific; He said that God would kill and then throw into gehenna, and He said that gehenna is the valley of corpses pictured in Isaiah 66:24, where their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched. He never said of Gehenna anything that hints at consciousness. His "gnashing teeth" sayings are not about gehenna, but always about the place and Day of Judgment.
Nonsense, Jesus said no such thing. Had you bothered to actually read my post I provided evidence from more than one source which documents that there was never a burning dump in Gehenna where corpses or anything else were burned. There was such a place but it was not Gehenna. Were you to do a little actual research you might learn the name of the place.
 
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William Tanksley Jr

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Why are you still posting to me? Are you trying to convince yourself of what you say? I mean that sincerely.

You're replying to the post in which I directly told you who I'm talking to. In spite of your rudeness I'm also interested in your thoughts and views. I've been studying the topic of hell for about 5 years now, and I'm interested in the discussion.

Ive stopped making the claim the wicked will live forever separated from God? How do you reach that conclusion? I've gone on stating it!

Your total retreat from all of the passages explicitly discussing the impossibility of living without God had given me the impression that you'd also disavowed your original claims. I accept your correction about your beliefs, but I note that I've actually shown directly that the wicked could not possibly live, move, or have their being apart from God (and so on in many other terms).

Absolutely, I'm just quoting one verse.

I'm glad you admitted this. In fact, you have only one verse, which explains why any attempt to discuss your one verse is met with scorn, snideness, and dismissal.

//Outside (the city the new heaven, the new Jerusalem) are the dogs, those who practice magic arts, the sexually immoral, the murderers, the idolators and everyone who loves and practices falsehood Rev22:15//

The new heaven/ the new Jerusalem comes down out of heaven immediatley after the final judgement. It's all over. And in the new Jerusalem there will be no more, death, mourning, crying or pain. And God will there dwell with his people. So those who exist outside the city, live apart from Gods presence, they do not cease to exist.

You have yet to reply to one single paragraph of my discussion of this verse. You believe this passage is describing people sinning outside of the New Jerusalem; but you ignore that this passage is at the same time as the previous verse, in which people are washing their robes to gain the right to enter (which means they too are outside). You ignore that this passage is being spoken as an exhortation to John's readers after John's vision ended in Rev 22:6, and so this is NOT at the point "it's all over."

Now, why should you be able to ignore the plainly written word, and expect me to accept your exegesis( which must be faulty) that seeks to overturn it?

The clearly written word nowhere says that the wicked will be separated from God. Not even your only remaining prooftext actually says that.

All you _have_ is the fact that this passage says "outside"; everything else about this passage makes it perfectly clear that it's talking about the present life of the wicked and the righteous, not about their final destiny -- except that the righteous will eventually (after the city descends) have the right to eat from the Tree of Life, which means that, unlike sinful Adam, they will live forever. This "living forever" is not possible without eating from the tree of life, as Genesis 3:22 proves.
 
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St_Worm2

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Hi again @Mark Corbett / @Chris Date, just another quick question concerning Rev 19-20.

Revelation 19
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Chapter 20

Satan Bound

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Satan Freed, Doomed

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So, the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire while Satan is bound for 1,000 years. Then he is freed, starts the Battle of Armageddon and loses it, then he joins the beast and the false prophet in the Lake of Fire (where they have already been suffering for 1,000+ years). The thing is, we come right back to the Biblical fact that they, the beast and the false prophet ALONG with the devil (who has just joined them), will be tormented "day and night" ... "forever and ever". That really sounds like the church got it right, the length of their "extended stay" that is :preach:

I have one final question tonight, but I'll leave it for my next post.

Yours and His,
David
 
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Butch5

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Hi again Mark/Chris, just another quick question concerning Revelation 19-20.

Revelation 19
20 And the beast was seized, and with him the false prophet who performed the signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone.
21 And the rest were killed with the sword which came from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse, and all the birds were filled with their flesh.

Chapter 20

Satan Bound

1 Then I saw an angel coming down from heaven, holding the key of the abyss and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold of the dragon, the serpent of old, who is the devil and Satan, and bound him for a thousand years;
3 and he threw him into the abyss, and shut it and sealed it over him, so that he would not deceive the nations any longer, until the thousand years were completed; after these things he must be released for a short time.
4 Then I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. And I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded because of their testimony of Jesus and because of the word of God, and those who had not worshiped the beast or his image, and had not received the mark on their forehead and on their hand; and they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.
5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.

Satan Freed, Doomed

7 When the thousand years are completed, Satan will be released from his prison,
8 and will come out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together for the war; the number of them is like the sand of the seashore.
9 And they came up on the broad plain of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city, and fire came down from heaven and devoured them.
10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

So, the beast and the false prophet are thrown into the Lake of Fire while Satan is bound for 1,000 years. Then he is freed, starts the Battle of Armageddon and loses it, then he joins the beast and the false prophet in the Lake of Fire (where they have already been suffering for 1,000+ years). The thing is, we come right back to the Biblical fact that they, the beast and the false prophet ALONG with the devil (who has just joined them), will be tormented "day and night" ... "forever and ever". That really sounds like the church got it right, the length of their "extended stay" that is :preach:

I have one final question tonight, but I'll leave it for my next post.

Yours and His,
David

Are the Beast and the False Prophet men?

But, even if they are men, how does this equate to all humans burning forever in the lake of fire? Only three are mentioned here?
 
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Butch5

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Hi Mark (and Chris :)), while "eventually annihilated" solves a lot of problems, it only does so if it's true, yes ;)

I realize you can argue for an extended stay (so to speak) in the Lake of Fire (that, in fact, is exactly what Christian orthodoxy has always said is true, an "extended stay" w/o end), but where does the Bible tell us that the reprobate is judged, condemned, thrown into the Lake of Fire, and then annihilated sometime later?

In fact, how would that work?? Isn't THAT the very thing you are arguing against where the Lake of Fire is concerned, that those who go there are annihilated/burned up upon entering there?

Here's one more question (if you don't mind). Death results from sin, but we are "spotted" lambs who can never make restitution for our sins on the basis of our deaths alone (only the Spotless Lamb Himself can do that on our behalf). So, if the reprobate is annihilated in the Lake of Fire, who will pay the debt they still owe to God?

Thanks!

In Christ,
David
Death is the payment. Paul said the wages of sin is death, all people sin and all people die.
 
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St_Worm2

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Hi again @Mark Corbett / @Chris Date , here's one of the big problems that I have with your view, it takes the "sting" out of the Gospel message. The reason this comes to mind is due to a thread that was created yesterday by one of our atheist members. In it, he questioned whether "Heaven" (rather than Hell) would be a place he could tolerate :eek:

Clearly the Lord, at the very least, intended to horrify us/scare us to death whenever He (as well the Apostles/NT writers) spoke of Hell, and He (and they) labored to do so for a very good and loving reason (1. because it's true and 2. so that there is no question in anyone's mind about which place is "tolerable", and which place clearly isn't, for anybody)!!

Here's a quote of Spurgeon's that speaks to this, I think:
My dear brethren, do not try to make the Gospel tasteful to carnal minds. Hide not the offense of the cross, lest you make it of none effect. The angles and corners of the gospel are its strength: to pare them off is to deprive it of power. Toning down is not the increase of strength, but the death of it.
The Good News is not very effective apart from the "bad news", is it, and the bad news of "annihilation" just doesn't sound that bad to many. In fact, I know a number of atheists (some who are sadly members of my extended family), who go about their daily lives happily planning on that very outcome (annihilation) following their deaths.

There is also the matter of the Lord's death, and the ultimate importance and necessity of it (as they only real means of paying the penalty for our sins), which is removed if the unorthodox doctrine of annihilation is actually true (as I believe I alluded to in one of my last posts).

This is going on too long. Sorry about that. I'll stop here and wait for your comments.

Yours and His,
David
 
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Butch5

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Hi again @Mark Corbett / @Chris Date , here's one of the big problems that I have with your view, it takes the "sting" out of the Gospel message. The reason this comes to mind is due to a thread that was created yesterday by one of our atheist members. In it, he questioned whether "Heaven" (rather than Hell) would be a place he could tolerate :eek:

Clearly the Lord, at the very least, intended to horrify us/scare us to death whenever He (as well the Apostles/NT writers) spoke of Hell, and He (and they) labored to do so for a very good and loving reason (1. because it's true and 2. so that there is no question in anyone's mind about which place is "tolerable", and which place clearly isn't, for anybody)!!

Here's a quote of Spurgeon's that speaks to this, I think:

The Good News is not very effective apart from the "bad news", is it, and the bad news of "annihilation" just doesn't sound that bad to many. In fact, I know a number of atheists (some who are sadly members of my extended family), who go about their daily lives happily planning on that very outcome (annihilation) following their deaths.

There is also the matter of the Lord's death, and the ultimate importance and necessity of it, which is removed if the unorthodox doctrine of annihilation is actually true (as I believe I alluded to in one of my last posts).

This is going on too long. Sorry about that. I'll stop here and wait for your comments.

Yours and His,
David

Hi David,

That one doesn't find Annihilation that bad isn't an argument against it. How do you see that annihilation changes the need for the Lord's death?

ETC is based on a flawed premise. It's based on the idea that man has an immortal soul. If that is the case then what need is there of the gift of eternal life? The promise of God is eternal life. ETC assumes that both the wicked and the righteous have eternal life. That is inconsistent with Scripture.
 
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St_Worm2

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Death is the payment. Paul said the wages of sin is death, all people sin and all people die.
Hi Butch, only the death of the Spotless Lamb can pay the restitution price in full for our sins (the death of one who is imperfect/spotted will not). This is one of the reasons that Hell ends up being a place of eternal suffering for the reprobate (because apart from Christ, they are unable to pay the entire, required amount).

Are the Beast and the False Prophet men?

I believe so. The "unholy trinity" (I believe it is called), is 1. the Devil, 2. the Antichrist (the beast), and the False Prophet. The latter two are human beings who, under the power and control of the devil, do his bidding.
 
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Butch5

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Hi Butch, only the death of the Spotless Lamb will pay restitution price in full that's due to God for our sins (the death of one who is imperfect/spotted will not). This is one of the reasons that Hell ends up being a place of eternal suffering for the reprobate (because apart from Christ, they are unable to pay what the entire, required penalty).

What restitution price? Paul said the wages of sin is death. Where in Scripture is a restitution payment?




I believe so. The "unholy trinity" (I believe it is called), is 1. the Devil, 2. the Antichrist (the beast), and the False Prophet. The latter two are human beings who, under the power and control of the devil, do his bidding.

Are they only human or are they humans possessed by demons? The beast ascends from the pit.

Revelation 17:8 The beast that thou sawest was, and is not; and shall ascend out of the bottomless pit, and go into perdition: and they that dwell on the earth shall wonder, whose names were not written in the book of life from the foundation of the world, when they behold the beast that was, and is not, and yet is. (Rev. 17:8 KJV)

The beast was and is not ans shall ascend out of the pit. How can this be a man?

However, even if these were men, it only shows that two men would be in the lake of fire and be tormented unto the ages of the ages. It doesn't address all mankind.
 
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The OT is required to fully understand all of this Butch, that our deaths alone cannot pay the penalty for our sins.

I've gotta run right now, but I'll try to provide you with a more complete explanation tomorrow (Dv). Quite frankly, I haven't looked into this for so long now that I'll need to refer to my notes anyway .. IOW, I'm going to take a "senior moment" to make sure I still know what I'm talking about ^_^).

See you later (again, Lord willing :wave:).

--David
 
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Butch5

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The OT is required to fully understand all of this Butch, that our deaths alone cannot pay the penalty for our sins.

I've gotta run right now, but I'll try to provide you with a more complete explanation tomorrow (Dv). Quite frankly, I haven't looked into this for so long now that I'll need to refer to my notes anyway .. IOW, I'm going to take a "senior moment" to make sure I still know what I'm talking about ^_^).

See you later (again, Lord willing :wave:).

--David

OK, thanks! As far as I'm aware the wages of sin is death. That actually isn't a penalty but something earned. I'm not aware of anything in Scripture that says man is required to make restitution. I do knot that that Anselm espoused that idea around 1100 AD.
 
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William Tanksley Jr

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Another out-of-context proof text which does not say what you claim.
... Where does it say God will sweep them away like a dream?

I seriously don't understand what your challenge is supposed to consist of. You asked how God could possibly punish the wicked with death; I answered by agreeing it was an important question and showing you where the Bible both asked and answered it. Job asks it; Psalm 73 both asks and answers.

Your reply seems to doubt that the passage says "sweep away like a dream". I was summarizing the passage, which both tells us that the wicked will be like a dream when one awakens and that they will be swept away. Here's the text. As background, the righteous man was asking God your question: how can the wicked be punished, when all they do is die like everyone else? The answer:

...until I went into the sanctuary of God; then I discerned their end. 18 Truly you set them in slippery places; you make them fall to ruin. 19 How they are destroyed in a moment, swept away utterly by terrors! 20 Like a dream when one awakes, O Lord, when you rouse yourself, you despise them as phantoms.

It says both that they will be swept away, and that they will be like a dream when one awakens. Your challenge here means nothing to me. Do you have some reason to disbelieve this passage? Why don't you question Job 21, then?

And why are you being so nasty and petty about this? I answered your question as asked, and I told you I thought it was a good question. Your response is to dismiss my explanation for reasons... well, I have no idea why you're dismissing it.

Your proof text is past tense, "thou hast destroyed every one that goes a whoring from thee."

That's not "my proof text"; it's one verse at the end of the chapter which as a whole gives a coherent answer to your question. And so what if it's past tense? What's your point?

I'm still waiting for that
"specifically and clearly" and "removed like a dream."

I answered your question sincerely and thoughtfully. My answer gave all the information you needed, and you found precisely the text I was citing. You have no reason to say you're "waiting"; you have my complete answer, and can simply discuss it.


There is a difference between a conscience awareness in sheol/hades and Zoe Aionion i.e. life eternal.

Of course. All Christians agree that conscious awareness in Sheol/Hades will not last forever, and that everlasting life will. The only point on which we disagree is whether people can live forever APART from having everlasting life. I happen to agree with the OP, who says that everlasting life is required in order to live forever.

There are three Greek words translated "life" in the NT "Zoe,""bios" and "pneuma" Only "zoe" is ever used with "life."

/psuche/ is also translated 'life'. And I think you meant to say that only /zoe/ is used to say "eternal life", and that's true. That's because /zoe/ is the only meaning that's appropriate to speak of having duration. The other two mean different aspects of life and are not really appropriate to speak of as having duration.

However, Jesus DID say that only the saved keep their life/psuche in an ultimate sense. This is the famous and often-quoted statement "whoever finds his own life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will find it." Jesus also said (in the same discourse) that we're to fear not men who claim to destroy our life but can only destroy our body, but rather fear (and obey) God who can destroy both body and psuche/life/soul in gehenna. Clearly, the point is that when men threaten us, we're to keep on obeying Jesus and disobeying them, even when they threaten death -- because we know that if we were to disobey God we'd fall under His condemnation, and we'd permanently lose our life.

Then Matthew quotes Jesus saying "What will it profit a man if he gains the whole world, yet forfeits his psuche? Or what can a man give in exchange for his psuche?" Luke expresses this as "
For whoever would save his psuche/life will lose it, but whoever loses his psuche/life for my sake will save it. For what does it profit a man if he gains the whole world and loses or forfeits himself?"

The point is that being saved by Christ means you get to live, whereas when not saved by Christ your life will be eventually, and finally, taken from you. If your life is taken, it means you're killed.


I never said there were not other views.

Then we agree there were other views. But I don't see your point now. Do you disagree with my claim that we have to exegete the Bible, rather than just turning to culture?


Nonsense, Jesus said no such thing.
Here's the sentences you seem to be replying to (I'm going to have to guess what "no such thing" you're replying to), with references inserted. You'll find that Jesus did indeed directly say all of those things.
But Jesus was incredibly specific; He said that God would kill and then throw into gehenna, and He said that gehenna is the valley of corpses pictured in Isaiah 66:24, where their worm does not die and their fire is not quenched. He never said of Gehenna anything that hints at consciousness. His "gnashing teeth" sayings are not about gehenna, but always about the place and Day of Judgment.

Luke 12:5 says the first thing; Mark 9:48 makes a place-based allusion to Isaiah 66:24 and names that place "gehenna". Isaiah doesn't name the valley, but it's the place where the corpses "slain by the Lord" when He comes in flaming fire, and it says of them, "And they shall go out and look on the dead bodies of the men who have rebelled against me. For their worm shall not die, their fire shall not be quenched, and they shall be an abhorrence to all flesh."

Had you bothered to actually read my post I provided evidence from more than one source which documents that there was never a burning dump in Gehenna where corpses or anything else were burned.

Why so vehement? I've never made that claim. I certainly agree the idea that gehenna was a trash dump is a made-up statement. People quote it in support of whatever they happen to believe, and they have no way of checking it. But I already said we should study Scripture, not cultural claims.
 
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William Tanksley Jr

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My above post, starting where I quote you saying "Nonsense, Jesus said no such thing," has its quotes all messed up -- be careful. The editor keeps inserting quote marks, I'm not sure why, even when I go through cleaning them out.
 
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ClementofA

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10 And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.



and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night-to the ages of the ages. (Rev.20:10, YLT)

And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons. (Rev.20:10, Concordant Literal New Testament, 1983)

...and the Adversary that had been deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where [were] both the wild-beast and the false-prophet; and they shall be tormented day and night unto the ages of ages. (Rev.20:10, Rotherham Emphasized Bible, 1959

American Standard Version footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.
Revised Version, 1881 footnote: *Gr. unto the ages of the ages.

Bible Translations That Do Not Teach Eternal Torment

Does ages of the ages have an end? Christ's reign is "to the ages of the ages":

And the seventh messenger did sound, and there came great voices in the heaven, saying, 'The kingdoms of the world did become those of our Lord and of His Christ, and he shall reign to the ages of the ages!' (Rev.11:15, YLT)

But His reign is "until" He gives up the Kingdom to the Father:

24 Then the end will come, when He hands over the kingdom to God the Father after He has destroyed all dominion, authority, and power. 25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. (1 Corinthians 15)

So Christ's reign "to the ages of the ages" is not "forever and ever". Therefore the phrase "to the ages of the ages" can be understood of a limited time period that comes to an end. So those in the lake of fire are not punished there "for ever and ever" (Rev.20:10).

Also, "forever and ever" is nonsense. No time can be added to "forever".

When Christ's reign ends (1 Cor.15 above), this will lead to God being "All in all" (v.28). IOW everyone will be saved, as all will be "in Christ" (v.22).

Rev.21:5 He who was seated on the throne said, “I am making all new!”

2 Cor.5:17 Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all is become new.

Chapter Five

Why Can't Aionas Ton Aionon Mean Eternity?

"After all, not only Walvoord, Buis, and Inge, but all intelligent students acknowledge that olam and aiõn sometimes refer to limited duration. Here is my point: The supposed special reference or usage of a word is not the province of the translator but of the interpreter. Since these authors themselves plainly indicate that the usage of a word is a matter of interpretation, it follows (1) that it is not a matter of translation, and (2) that it is wrong for any translation effectually to decide that which must necessarily remain a matter of interpretation concerning these words in question. Therefore, olam and aiõn should never be translated by the thought of “endlessness,” but only by that of indefinite duration (as in the anglicized transliteration “eon” which appears in the Concordant Version)."

Eon As Indefinte Duration, Part Three


Berean Literal Bible
And the devil, the one deceiving them, was cast into the lake of fire and of sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet also are; and they will be tormented day and night to the ages of the ages.

Weymouth New Testament
and the Devil, who had been leading them astray, was thrown into the Lake of fire and sulphur where the Wild Beast and the false Prophet were, and day and night they will suffer torture until the Ages of the Ages.

Revelation 20:10 Interlinear: and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

If torment is "to" or "until" a certain age or ages, as per the versions above, then it ends before that age starts, so it is not for ever and ever.

If torment is "into" (EIS) these future ages, as the word EIS is often translated as "into", that does not necessarily mean it lasts for the entire duration of those ages, even if those ages are endless.

If torment is "into the ages of the ages", the torment makes entrance into those ages, not necessarily throughout the entire duration of them. Therefore the torment "into the ages of the ages" (e.g. Rev.20:10) is of an indefinite period of time.
Revelation 20:10 Interlinear: and the Devil, who is leading them astray, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where are the beast and the false prophet, and they shall be tormented day and night -- to the ages of the ages.

eis: to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)...Definition: into, in, unto, to, upon, towards, for, among."
Strong's Greek: 1519. εἰς (eis) -- to or into (indicating the point reached or entered, of place, time, fig. purpose, result)

From other Scriptures it is clear that the torment ends.

https://www.tentmaker.org/books/hope_beyond_hell.pdf
 
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William Tanksley Jr

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The Good News is not very effective apart from the "bad news", is it, and the bad news of "annihilation" just doesn't sound that bad to many.

I don't think that's true at all. The Good News is that the God who created us loves us, and doesn't hate us at all. That's incredibly good news. Even better is that we thought was the unbeatable bad news, that we all die, was always going to be defeated by God. So what we thought was true -- that we were all doomed to become corpses or (at best) ghosts -- turns out to be gloriously undone for those who are in Christ and who follow Him in His resurrection.

In fact, in the entire books of Acts the good news is preached many times to unbelievers; the final judgment is mentioned only once (to pagan Greeks on Mars Hill who certainly had no idea of the details), and the punishment for rejecting Christ is named as to be "destroyed utterly from among the people."

In fact, I know a number of atheists (some who are sadly members of my extended family), who go about their daily lives happily planning on that very outcome (annihilation) following their deaths.

It's entirely possible to completely ignore your impending death. It's not possible to "happily plan" for it. Nobody has ever done that. Paul calls that kind of thinking "those who have no hope" -- people who seriously expect that they will never again see their loved ones lack hope.

Atheists counsel one another to avoid thinking about death too much; just be relaxed and focus on the present. If only they could believe the good news that God loves them and has defeated death... But they reject the good news in their eagerness to suppress God.
 
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Darren J. Clark

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Well actually I have started partaking of threads where people seek affinity & advice on particular problems in their lives. They do seem worthwhile to me

Cool. Sounds like it is something you are searching for.
 
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