Works in Covenant Theology

Sola1517 · Jul 22, 2017

How is the covenant of works not a form of works-based righteousness?

friend of · Jul 22, 2017

It kinda suggests that Christ's sacrifice isn't enough or that His grace is insufficient or that He isn't beneficent enough to forgive people...

jimmyjimmy · Jul 22, 2017

Sola1517 said:
How is the covenant of works not a form of works-based righteousness?

Good question. I've never considered it before.

My first thought is that the gospel doesn't first appear until after the Fall. In other words, Adam had no gospel or Messiah to even consider prior to his sin.

Sola1517 · Jul 22, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Good question. I've never considered it before.

My first thought is that the gospel doesn't first appear until after the Fall. In other words, Adam had no gospel or Messiah to even consider prior to his sin.

But it's still in effect to this day?

Are you telling me that the Covenant of Works was replaced or is it still part of the way God deals with people?

jimmyjimmy · Jul 22, 2017

Sola1517 said:
But it's still in effect to this day?

Again, I haven't thought about it, so I will see what I can dig up.

Why I Believe in the Covenant of Works

St_Worm2 · Jul 22, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Good question. I've never considered it before.

My first thought is that the gospel doesn't first appear until after the Fall. In other words, Adam had no gospel or Messiah to even consider prior to his sin.

Like JJ, I thought the Covenant of Works was between God and Adam in the Garden. And if that's true, then it is a righteousness based on Adam's works alone, specifically, on his choice to obey God in the single commandment he was given by Him (you know, "don't take a bit out of the apple").

We, Adam's progeny, are all living proof that Adam chose poorly.

Sola1517 · Jul 22, 2017

St_Worm2 said:
Like JJ, I thought the Covenant of Works was between God and Adam in the Garden. And if that's true, then it is a righteousness based on Adam's works alone,

Well then is the Covenant of Grace between God and Adam only?

jimmyjimmy · Jul 22, 2017

Just because Adam failed does not mean that men aren't under obligation to obey, regardless of our ability to obey the law. That's a tough one on an Arminian, but I see the truth to it.

Sola1517 · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Just because Adam failed does not mean that men aren't under obligation to obey, regardless of our ability to obey the law. That's a tough one on an Arminian, but I see the truth to it.

Hmmmmm, okay. I was gonna say that's unfair but then I psyched myself back into place.

But are men righteous for obeying the law?

St_Worm2 · Jul 23, 2017

Sola1517 said:
Hmmmmm, okay. I was gonna say that's unfair but then I psyched myself back into place.

But are men righteous for obeying the law?

Who among us has ever "obeyed the law" .. e.g. Romans 3:23; James 2:10-11

jimmyjimmy · Jul 23, 2017

Sola1517 said:
Hmmmmm, okay. I was gonna say that's unfair but then I psyched myself back into place.

But are men righteous for obeying the law?

Men are righteous by obedience to the law. Yes. Understanding that obedience to the law means perfect obedience 24/7/365. Since there is only One who has pulled this off, we can only be found righteous *in Him*.

The grace we received is because of the works-righteousness of Christ.

Sola1517 · Jul 23, 2017

St_Worm2 said:
Who among us has ever "obeyed the law" .. e.g. Romans 3:23; James 2:10-11

Although not perfectly, we do have the capacity as humans to do what is right... Maybe... 10% of the time. Right? Is that fair?

Soyeong · Jul 23, 2017

Sola1517 said:
How is the covenant of works not a form of works-based righteousness?

There are 1,050 laws in the NT, so the New Covenant is just as much a covenant of works as the Mosaic Covenant, and in Psalms 119:29, David asked God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so the Mosaic Covenant is just as much a covenant of grace as the New Covenant. In Romans 1:5, it says we have received grace to bring about the obedience that faith requires, so grace and faithfulness have always been important attributes of God in both the OT and the NT (Exodus 34:6-7). In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith was one of the weightier matters of the Law, and in Titus 2:11-14, it says that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and training to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful, which is an accurate description of what the Law was given to instruct how to do.

God's Law instructs us how to practice or train in righteousness, and we are told in the NT to practice and train in righteousness (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16-17), but God's Law is not instructions for how to become righteous because the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith. For example, God's Law reveals that helping the poor is a way to act in accordance with God's righteousness, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone who is not righteous to become righteous. However, if we have faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live, then we will be justified by that faith, and by the same faith we are required to follow God's instructions for how to rightly live.

Sola1517 · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
Men are righteous by obedience to the law. Yes. Understanding that obedience to the law means perfect obedience 24/7/365. Since there is only One who has pulled this off, we can only be found righteous *in Him*.

The grace we received is because of the works righteousness of Christ.

Good answer.

friend of · Jul 23, 2017

Sola1517 said:
Although not perfectly, we do have the capacity as humans to do what is right... Maybe... 10% of the time. Right? Is that fair?

Not good enough; never would be

jimmyjimmy · Jul 23, 2017

Sola1517 said:
Although not perfectly, we do have the capacity as humans to do what is right... Maybe... 10% of the time. Right? Is that fair?

I would argue that my good deeds are tainted.

As someone once said, even my repentance needs to be repented of.

jimmyjimmy · Jul 23, 2017

Soyeong said:
There are 1,050 laws in the NT, so the New Covenant is just as much a covenant of works as the Mosaic Covenant

That's assuming the NT rules are part of a covenant. They are not.

Sola1517 · Jul 23, 2017

Soyeong said:
There are 1,050 laws in the NT, so the New Covenant is just as much a covenant of works as the Mosaic Covenant, and in Psalms 119:29, David asked God to be gracious to him by teaching him to obey His Law, so the Mosaic Covenant is just as much a covenant of grace as the New Covenant. In Romans 1:5, it says we have received grace to bring about the obedience that faith requires, so grace and faithfulness have always been important attributes of God in both the OT and the NT (Exodus 34:6-7). In Matthew 23:23, Jesus said that faith was one of the weightier matters of the Law, and in Titus 2:11-14, it says that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, and training to renounce doing what is ungodly and sinful, which is an accurate description of what the Law was given to instruct how to do.

God's Law instructs us how to practice or train in righteousness, and we are told in the NT to practice and train in righteousness (1 John 3:10, 2 Timothy 3:16-17), but God's Law is not instructions for how to become righteous because the one and only way that there has ever been to become righteous is by grace through faith. For example, God's Law reveals that helping the poor is a way to act in accordance with God's righteousness, but no amount of helping the poor will ever cause someone who is not righteous to become righteous. However, if we have faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live, then we will be justified by that faith, and by the same faith we are required to follow God's instructions for how to rightly live.

So is my salvation dependent in any way on my works?

Soyeong · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
That's assuming the NT rules are part of a covenant. They are not.

By all means, feel free to support your claim that they are not. If there are any laws required in the New Covenant, then it is also a covenant of works.

Sola1517 · Jul 23, 2017

jimmyjimmy said:
I would argue that my good deeds are tainted.

As someone once said, even my repentance needs to be repented of.

Right, trusting in my repentance is the same thing as no repentance.

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