Works in Covenant Theology

[jimmyjimmy]

By all means, feel free to support your claim that they are not. If there are any laws required in the New Covenant, then it is also a covenant of works.

You made the claim. "There are 1,050 laws in the NT, so the New Covenant is just as much a covenant of works as the Mosaic Covenant"

 

[Soyeong]

So is my salvation dependent in any way on my works?

God has never required obedience to any of His laws in order to become saved. However, our salvation is from sin (Matthew 1:21) and sin is defined as Lawlessness (1 John 3:4), so our salvation from living in disobedience to the Law so that we might be free to live in obedience to it and meet its righteous requirement (Romans 8:3-4). Our salvation from doing what is sinful necessarily involves being made into someone who does what is righteous. This is again essentially what Titus 2:11-14 is saying. Jesus gave himself to redeem us from all Lawlessness and to purify for himself a people of his own possession who are zealous for doing good works, which incidentally is why Jews coming to faith in Jesus were becoming zealous for the Law (Acts 21:20). It also says that our salvation involves being trained by grace to do what is godly, righteous, and good, so our salvation involves being trained to do good works. We are not saved by doing good works, but rather doing good works is what our salvation necessarily entails. According to Ephesians 2:8-10, we have been saved by grace through faith, not by doing good works, but for the purpose of doing them. God shows who grace to us by training us in how to rightly live and it is by this grace through faith in God to guide us in how to rightly live that we are saved from living unrightly.

 

[Soyeong]

You made the claim. "There are 1,050 laws in the NT, so the New Covenant is just as much a covenant of works as the Mosaic Covenant"

It should be relatively straightforward that the New Covenant at least involves what is taught in New Covenant Scriptures and I see nothing in Scripture that suggests otherwise. If you think what I said was false, then please do explain you reasoning.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

It should be relatively straightforward that the New Covenant at least involves what is taught in New Covenant Scriptures and I see nothing in Scripture that suggests otherwise. If you think what I said was false, then please do explain you reasoning.

What is a covenant? What is the New Covenant? If you can answer those two questions biblically, you will see that your initial statement was incorrect.

 

[Soyeong]

What is a covenant? What is the New Covenant? If you can answer those two questions biblically, you will see that your initial statement was incorrect.

I can biblically answer those questions, but that doesn't show how my statement was incorrect, so if you have a case to make then please make it.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

I can biblically answer those questions, but that doesn't show how my statement was incorrect, so if you have a case to make then please make it.

Evasiveness means we are done here. You asserted something. It had no backing. You spoke first, and made an errant assertion, then you ask me to do something. That makes no sense.

 

[Soyeong]

Evasiveness means we are done here. You asserted something. It had no backing. You spoke first, and made an errant assertion, then you ask me to do something. That makes no sense.

You have asserted that my statement is in error without giving me any reason why I should think that it was in error and you have continued to avoid giving me any reason in spite of me politely asking repeatedly to do so, so do not attempt to pin your evasiveness on me, I have no interest in playing your games. It is straightforwardly obvious that what is taught in New Covenant Scriptures is how to live according to the New Covenant, so if you have any reason to think otherwise, then please explain your position.

 

[HighCherub]

Covenant Theology

Something the Dispensationalists call 'Replacement Theology'; a derogatory label, as their theology is flawed in the matter of the New Covenant altogether and they resort to these ridiculous things.

 

[Sola1517]

Covenant Theology

Something the Dispensationalists call 'Replacement Theology'; a derogatory label, as their theology is flawed in the matter of the New Covenant altogether and they resort to these ridiculous things.

What do you believe about the Covenant of Works? (I.e., Can you get into heaven based upon what you do?)

 

[HighCherub]

What do you believe about the Covenant of Works? (I.e., Can you get into heaven based upon what you do?)

Solely works based salvation is something that really doesn't exists. Even with the Catholic Church, they believe in 'Faith and Works' contrary to the Protestant's 'Faith Alone'.

In fact, they're not entirely different species either- 'Faith Alone' doesn't suggest a person is saved merely by stating a faith or being thrown under water.

 

[Sola1517]

stating a faith or being thrown under water.

Those are works.

 

[HighCherub]

Those are works.

No they aren't. A work is doing something for the church or in charity. Calling confessed faith or baptism 'a work' is preposterous and does not relate to what the Bible speaks of works.

 

[jimmyjimmy]

No they aren't. A work is doing something for the church or in charity.

??? How have you arrived at that definition?

 

[HighCherub]

??? How have you arrived at that definition?

When the Apostles refer to works, they are referring to services a person provides to the church or in charity- the baptizer is fulfilling a work, not the person being baptized.

 

[Sola1517]

When the Apostles refer to works, they are referring to services a person provides to the church or in charity- the baptizer is fulfilling a work, not the person being baptized.

The baptized is submitting to the work of the Lord in them, and therefore, I think it's a work being performed in/through them.

 

[St_Worm2]

When the Apostles refer to works, they are referring to services a person provides to the church or in charity- the baptizer is fulfilling a work, not the person being baptized.

Hi HC, a person who chooses to be baptized is acting obediently, in accord with the command of God to do so, yes? How can a Christian's faithful choice to do what God commands us to do not be considered a "work" that we do?

Thanks!

--David

 

[HighCherub]

Hi HC, a person who chooses to be baptized is acting obediently, in accord with the command of God to do so, yes? How can a Christian's faithful choice to do what God commands us to do not be considered a "work" that we do?

Baptism is a gift- neither Calvin or Luther ever refer to it as a work, having also retained infant baptism.

Dispensationalists simply try to call it a work to justify the lack of baptism in their churches. Better to just point it out directly: the entire idea of it being a work came from them and nobody else.

 

[St_Worm2]

You make a very good point, and one that I should have considered, but didn't, because I was focused on credobaptism alone for some reason.

Thanks!

--David

 

[Tree of Life]

How is the covenant of works not a form of works-based righteousness?

That's exactly what the covenant of works is.

 

[Tree of Life]

The covenant of works is essentially - "obey and live; disobey and die".

The covenant of works was made with Adam in the garden and continues to this day. After Adam violated the terms of the covenant of works God graciously made a second covenant with Adam - the covenant of grace. Every person on the planet, being a descendant of Adam, is either in the covenant of works or the covenant of grace.

This is to say, all of us are either depending upon our own works and are thus in a violated covenant relationship with God; or we are depending on the works of Jesus Christ and thus are in a fulfilled covenant relationship with God. Jesus, being a descendant of Adam, was born under the covenant of works and he took the curse of that covenant and also fulfilled its terms of obedience.

Romans 2:6-7 says that it is indeed possible to be saved by works (in theory). The problem is that no one will be saved by works because we're all sinners.