The New Divide

rusmeister said:

An excellent article that I was chagrined to find in Touchstone, rather than in a strictly Orthodox publication: keeping this stuff "in-house" as much as possible is vital for our witness to non-Orthodox, in my opinion.

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I can understand not wanting this stuff aired out among outsiders, but tend to disagree. I doubt the other side will keep this stuff in-house. Speaking as an outsider, we see the warts and love you anyway. You don't want to be the shlub who becomes 4 inches taller in his dating profile.

I missed whatever happened re: Sr Vassa, though I have not been unaware of some minor shadows along the way.

I read the article, but can't relate much. I know of some tensions between jurisdictions, but I know much more of acceptance and charity.

Am I living in a bubble? If so I'm thankful, I think. It nurtures my faith safely.

But except for little pockets I find online, I never seem to run across this in real life. I don't even find serious issues between EO and other Orthodox we are not in communion with.

It was a bit more tense before the council, of course. But everything seems to have settled pretty quickly after that.

And I sometimes run into articles or teaching by Orthodox online that are clearly outside of what the Church has always taught (even I know this) and it appears to be tolerated, but that's a matter for bishops I suppose and not an unrelated lay convert like me.

I'm not sure if I relate properly to Orthodoxy as a whole. I don't want to be blinded and unaware in a wrong way, but otoh I just don't see much of this. And I notice the article says "especially Orthodox in America".

The worst I know of is some lack of knowledge of theology in the parish, a few young ladies who could dress more conservatively I think, and a few who have issues in their private lives (don't we all from time to time? Myself certainly included). And a lack of uniformity on head coverings - most don't wear them. That's about as bad as it gets that I'm aware of, and that's certainly nothing to split the Church over. And being that my parish is Greek, we get accused of being the "worst". I see many too though who embody the teachings of Mt. Athos in personal lives, some who are indistinguishable in their lives from the Saints we read about, so I'd not be quick to criticize them on the whole.

So what IS the real state of things? I'm confused by all of this?

~Anastasia~ said:

I missed whatever happened re: Sr Vassa, though I have not been unaware of some minor shadows along the way.

I read the article, but can't relate much. I know of some tensions between jurisdictions, but I know much more of acceptance and charity.

Am I living in a bubble? If so I'm thankful, I think. It nurtures my faith safely.

But except for little pockets I find online, I never seem to run across this in real life. I don't even find serious issues between EO and other Orthodox we are not in communion with.

It was a bit more tense before the council, of course. But everything seems to have settled pretty quickly after that.

And I sometimes run into articles or teaching by Orthodox online that are clearly outside of what the Church has always taught (even I know this) and it appears to be tolerated, but that's a matter for bishops I suppose and not an unrelated lay convert like me.

I'm not sure if I relate properly to Orthodoxy as a whole. I don't want to be blinded and unaware in a wrong way, but otoh I just don't see much of this. And I notice the article says "especially Orthodox in America".

The worst I know of is some lack of knowledge of theology in the parish, a few young ladies who could dress more conservatively I think, and a few who have issues in their private lives (don't we all from time to time? Myself certainly included). And a lack of uniformity on head coverings - most don't wear them. That's about as bad as it gets that I'm aware of, and that's certainly nothing to split the Church over. And being that my parish is Greek, we get accused of being the "worst". I see many too though who embody the teachings of Mt. Athos in personal lives, some who are indistinguishable in their lives from the Saints we read about, so I'd not be quick to criticize them on the whole.

So what IS the real state of things? I'm confused by all of this?

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I never see all this irl either. What the article describes seems foreign to my personal experience. I'm not saying it isn't there, but I am thankful I haven't seen this or experienced this.

Can I ask (or ask for a link) about what happened with Sr Vassa?

Thank you for posting the article, @rusmeister. It was a great read, and FWIW I do happen to agree with the author as well.

Also, as for folks not bringing it up during coffee hour or what not. I suspect it would cause division, and maybe even confrontation as so many of these issues are tied to political views for people. So some people likely avoid talking about it in person, though I could be mistaken as I'm of course not present during these discussions, and I'm not familiar with the people. Others, may just be content with the churches teachings on the issues, and don't feel a need to speak about them.

On that note, as someone who is an outsider, I can tell you all that this hasn't swayed me from aspiring to become an Orthodox Christian in the least bit. As laity in any church we are a direct reflection of the society from which we come, and as a result I expect these kind of issues to be present in the church as well. I pray, and believe that the church will choose the correct route on these issues.

I sometimes wonder if the high level of converts in our area may help us all cling to the Orthodox faith that we found after our journey. (I'm not saying anything bad about cradle Orthodox - just some observations). We (converts) also have all gone through a catechism with our priest, as well as many cradle Orthodox - and he is very strict about staying true to Orthodox teachings and says it like it is, even if it offends people. At the same time, he still shows love - which is a blend I really appreciate.

On the other hand, we had some newer visitors who were more liberal, and he started talking about some gender issues - and they walked out! I like that about him though. He wasn't chauvinistic, but he did mention about how honored the Theotokos is, etc. Another person actually left our jurisdiction since that person was told full communion wasn't possible if that person continued actively promoting abortion, SSM, etc. I really wish I could reach out to that person more. (That person moved to another region that was more liberal). Most of the Orthodox in the area are like this as well. I think it is a more conservative area.

I appreciate this very much - and while it is good to know what it going on - I am thankful to not experience it much in person. I'll pray that this doesn't change.

I think we just gotta trust the Holy Spirit when it comes to this, knowing that He will maintain the balance between the two extremes and He will have the final say.

rusmeister said:

I have it even in my home. It is VERY real to me. My wife is surrounded by friends that are on the "liberal" side of the divide; I have had my daughter telling me she sees nothing wrong with same-sex relations, and sees me as some kind of ogre for seeing anything wrong with them. I can't even discuss these issues with my wife. I had a close friend of my wife defending divorce and SSM, and I'm talking cradle Orthodox. So if this is really far from you, I say, lucky you. But I see a long-term schism brewing in this.

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I'm really sorry to hear this, Rus. You have my prayers.

For the sake of discussion though, you're talking about your family in Russia? Maybe the author of the article was wrong to point to America?

Though I confess to having a somewhat idealized view of Orthodoxy in Russia that in reality perhaps hasn't survived the last century's onslaught as well as I hoped and was led to believe by a number of particular person's experiences.

rusmeister said:

The recent explosion over Sr Vassa of ROCOR has really brought opposing forces in a larger struggle, between those who think the Church needs improvement and change, and those that believe that the Church has always had the fullness of the Faith. The one calls for love and compassion, often at the expense of truth, and the other calls for truth, sometimes at the expense of love and compassion. There are extremes on both sides, which should be summarily dismissed: "hyperdox" who think all men ought never to shave and women ought never to talk in church, and that every single canon applies to everyone in all places and times, and people who think we ought to be ordaining women and sodomites as priests.

But there are a lot of people less extreme who lean one way or the other. And it is there that we need to consider the tendencies of thought, and their effect on theology and praxis, and what dangers to try to avoid, first ourselves, then those immediately around us. Even thinking alone won't save us from preventing schism; we must all desire truth more than we desire even our pet ideas.

An excellent article that I was chagrined to find in Touchstone, rather than in a strictly Orthodox publication: keeping this stuff "in-house" as much as possible is vital for our witness to non-Orthodox, in my opinion. But still, it seems to find points of the less extreme divisions. The author takes a side, and he is right, I think. He certainly does a better job than I would of cutting through to the essential considerations:

Touchstone Archives: Three Trojan Horses

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Thanks for posting this thread, Rus.

Let me preface my comments by saying that I love Sister Vassa and thinks she does some great things.

I received her comments this week about homosexuality and felt really troubled. Although she acknowledges that homosexual sex is a sin and that one should not leave the Church, the rest is a miasma of misinformation. Not only do I think she is wrong (though well intentioned) in her advice; I think she is betraying what she has spent so much of her life adroitly defending, which is a keen knowledge of and application of the teachings of the Fathers and Scripture. She is basically innovating without reference to Church Tradition and she says so. I thought we Orthodox didn't do that.

There are no Fathers that ever soft peddled homosexuality. They were united in condemning it. Moreover Scripture never describes homosexuality as a less serious sin than others. On the contrary, I Cor 6:18 says:

"Flee from sexual immorality. All other sins a person commits are outside the body, but whoever sins sexually, sins against their own body."

I am really sorry she posted what she did. It doesn't reflect the mind of the Church. I think it could lead some to advise doing what feels good, rather than what is right, good, and holy.

I hope she issues a correction or apology.

I don't know any of the people or wider issues involved in this, but it seems that there is a kind of divide between those who soften absolute rejection of this behavior in the name of 'love'. Of course, from where I am sitting on this side of the Nile (not the Bosphorous), I can say that this is a non-issue, insofar as there are people in my own parish who sincerely do not believe that this problem exists in Egypt, but is a Western issue only. (I also heard that from a Russian professor years ago, actually; "No, no...we do not have that in our country", meaning Russia.)

But to the extent that it is not openly talked about (and this can hardly be laid at the feet of Christians in a society that is over 80% Muslim, where Islam is enshrined in the constitution as the state religion; we do not set the boundaries of that society), we can only find what are perhaps oblique references, or things that can be taken to fit both homosexuality and other things that the Church will absolutely not bless: "We are not pressured by anyone, except by the teachings of the Bible."



Granted, the above is a propaganda video for how great HH Pope Shenouda III is (I'm only including it because it's where I got that quote from, and I like to cite my sources), which I don't expect anyone here to agree with, but the words are solid, are they not? We may be nice and loving, but anything that touches the religion or the doctrine is another matter, and we are not be pressured by anyone into accepting anything that is against the scriptures just because they should want it or whatever. I would expect absolutely nothing less from Eastern Orthodox to their own people and the world at large than from my own leaders (as in this matter, we definitely do not differ even a centimeter). So to the extent that you are not getting that straight down the line (to whatever extent Sr. Vassa represents an authority, even just as someone to whom others write for advice), I can see where the problem is and definitely agree with the OP.

What to do about it, though...? Ehhh...the good sister will hopefully realize that her fidelity to the scriptures and the fathers ought to greatly outweigh the false comfort given by wavering and incorrect though well-meaning answers to sincerely-asked questions. There are more than enough places, including those which present themselves as churches, which will give those kinds of answers to this question and many others. I wouldn't think that Eastern Orthodox would be one of them, and I still don't think it is, but it's important to address when these things come up, so as to not create a precedent that can be referred to later by future lovers of the world and its falsehood. Here I'm reminded of one of Fr. Josiah Trenham's podcasts (I can't remember which) where he talks about a homosexual couple having bribed a priest in Russia to perform a 'same-sex marriage' in one of the churches, which led to that church being bulldozed out of existence, lest it become a rallying point for homosexual advocates in Russia like Stonewall in America or other landmarks in other places. Probably some people would condemn that as "not loving", but I doubt they could honestly say that they do not see the sound logic in it.

What I find interesting is the comparison to young people (or unmarried persons) in general.

Yes, hormones kick in. But what DO we tell our young people? Do we just throw up our hands and accept a series of "hook-ups" without daring to tell them that they shouldn't do that, for fear of turning them away from the Church?

IMO, same sex attraction is not the major point of this whole issue, if for no other reason than that it won't affect a great number of young people (at this point in time). But I'm seeing overtones of the suggestion that we might not want to preach abstinence IN ANY FORM for fear of driving (especially young) people from Christianity, because they are supposedly incapable of abstaining.

As also mentioned, life throws these things at us. What if a spouse is away on military deployment, or long business trips, or an illness that prevents sexual activity? Do we just allow for adultery as well in these cases because, after all, people "cannot abstain"? I don't think we are there yet. But I've been seeing for years the idea that we need to soften a stance against premarital sexual activity (secular pressure on Christianity in general, not speaking of Orthodoxy in particular).

These are all rungs on the same ladder, and they all appeal to the inability to expect persons to harness and control their passions.

Thank you Rusmeister for this valuable ( albeit distressing) article that exposes the agenda of the 5th column ( Definition of FIFTH COLUMN ) within the church. I think this quote from the article clearly expresses the anti evangelical, syncretist, & satanic agenda of this movement:

In relation to a democratic form of the common good, the church must accept its own limits and recognize that the goal is not the formation of a eucharistic community through persuasion but, rather, the construction of a community in which diversity and multiculturalism are affirmed and protected and in which the recognition of such diversity and multiculturalism must be enforced if they are not voluntarily accepted.7

Read more:Touchstone Archives: Three Trojan Horses

Beware of false rhetoric masking itself in love of the world and in rebellion against God. Take heed of the warnings of the apostle John:

We must love our neighbor ( see 1 John 2:10-11 )

We must not love the world: ( see 1 John 2:15-17 ).

~Anastasia~ said:

As also mentioned, life throws these things at us. What if a spouse [has] illness that prevents sexual activity?

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In the old days this would have prevented the marriage and, in some cases, been grounds for divorce, depending on how young the couple was.

rusmeister said:

I think it would be wrong, even and especially for clergy, to not define that balance. We are here for a reason, and have roles to play and contributions, however tiny, to make.

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Exactly, I guess the Lord's call for us to repent ( Matthew 4:17 ) is out the window with these deceivers of false, worldly "love". Being middle aged, single, & heterosexual still having sexual desires it is imperative that I realize that this is adultery even if I avoid overtly corrupting some innocent woman ( Matthew 5:28-30 ). Being a former overt adulterer, I also do not judge others who have no concept of the sin of adultery.

rusmeister said:

I think it would be wrong, even and especially for clergy, to not define that balance. We are here for a reason, and have roles to play and contributions, however tiny, to make.

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oh I hear you, but we can only do that by trusting the Spirit. it's when we look to ourselves that we loose the balance and go to one of the extremes