U.S. Supreme Court To Decide Cake Baker Free Speech Claim and Public Accommodation Law

KCfromNC

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He actually said that he would happily have sold a cake from the display stock, that had been crafted from the love in his heart.

Did he?

It's his way of expressing that it is not the purpose of his business. His business objective is to share blessing through His talent, but because of his moral judgements, it is impossible to feel this way about a gay couple.

I'd be curious to see any documentation of him saying or writing anything about this before the incident in question.

Yes, I buy that he would feel that way. I was once asked (as a website developer) by the client to create a mechanism whereby the website owner could inject value into his ledger. I refused to do that, because it was morally unacceptable from my view.

Comparing being gay with cheating at business? Come on, be nice.

He has :willingly: given up some of his rights (such as the right to sleep at any time of the day, I suppose), but did not enter into business for the purpose of being expected to bless that which grieves him.

Funny how his web site doesn't say anything about it being a business intent on blessing things at all. It talks about baking cakes. In fact, it invites people to select from his gallery of cakes or go for a custom designed cakes without mentioning any sort of restrictions. Blessings aren't mentioned once. Where is all this stuff coming from after the fact? If it is true, why does he hide it from potential customers?

I must have missed this! .. Can you link and quote the relevant facts for me please?

This Homophobic Bakery will Cater Dog Weddings but Not Gay Civil Unions and many other sources.

Right. But it shouldn't be a religious issue anyway, it should be an issue of respect. This man who treasures The Holy Spirit inside of him does not wish to be grieved by serving immorality.

Society decided long ago that refusing service to minorities based on religious beliefs isn't something that deserves respect.
 
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TLK Valentine

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He will likely lose the religious freedom claim and the Court will very likely rely upon Employment Division v Smith to reject the religious claim.

If that happens, would you say it'll set a precedent of leaving "religious freedom" to the individual states?
 
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NotreDame

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A list of questions is not an answer.

To the contrary, your line of questioning has suggested the direction of your argument. Your repeated requests for someone to tell you the expressive message of the cake I pictured, or the custom wedding cake by Masterpiece, indicates where you are going with your argument. My post, with the picture and a series of questions, highlights the difficulty of the argument you seek to make.

An inability by anyone here to adequately answer your question would have most assuredly resulted in the most logical and rational retort you could provide, which is a failure to identify an expressive message weakens the notion one exists. You undoubtedly would have declared the act making a custom wedding cake, and the cake pictured, is not expressive speech since no one could tell you the expressive message.

Hence, my use of the art picture. The art picture parallels the direction of your argument. The expressive message in the art picture is rather difficult to discern. I chose that picture because few, if any, would deny there is an expressive message in the art picture, despite the difficulty of being able to articulate the expressive message. Similarly, the fact you cannot discern an expressive message in the picture of the cake I provided, does not lead to the conclusion there is no expressive message.

Furthermore, unlike the picture of art, the owner of Masterpiece has stated the expressive message of his cake is celebratory of the occasion, given the context and circumstances of making the custom wedding cake. While the Court will certainly independently evaluate whether such an expressive message exists, at least we know what we are looking for since the cake maker has told us. In regards to the picture of art, we have no idea what to look for in regards to the expressive message.

So, the direction of your argument, as suggested by your questioning, is rather unconvincing should no one be able to tell you the expressive message of the cake.

Unless, of course, there is an argument to be made that A.) the art pictured is not protected by the 1st Amendment speech clause because of a lack of a discernible expressive message and B.) how/why a lack of a discernible expressive message is fatal for some but not others.
 
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Belk

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View attachment 200425

Great questions. I have two posts to make a reply.

This post addresses your query by use of an example.

Is the picture above expressive speech?

What is the message expressed by the picture?

Is it expressive speech even if we cannot immediately discern a message?

Or can the type of picture above be censored, banned, or an artist forced to create that picture because A.) there is no message and/or 2) the expressive message isn't discernible?

My next post will relate the picture above to the custom weddings cakes I've posted.

OK. A valid point. Simply because we do not immediately discern the message something is trying to convey does not mean it is not speech that is protected by the first amendment. So how does this link into the cake as expressive speech?
 
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NotreDame

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OK. A valid point. Simply because we do not immediately discern the message something is trying to convey does not mean it is not speech that is protected by the first amendment. So how does this link into the cake as expressive speech?

Any failure to identify an expressive message by the cake does not lead to the conclusion none exists. In addition, the owner of Masterpiece, in his brief, alleges the message expressed by his act of creating custom wedding cakes.

Masterpiece has a viable argument and a problem in this thread is too many are so quick to dismiss any notion there is an expressive message. If certain forms of erotic dancing have an expressive message, see Glen Theater v. Barnes, Barnes v. Glen Theatre, Inc., 501 U.S. 560 (1991), then it is rationally plausible something requiring skill and making use of techniques, shapes, colors, thickness, arrangements, as is the case with custom cake making, can also possess an expressive message in certain contexts, such as a wedding.
 
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Belk

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Any failure to identify an expressive message by the cake does not lead to the conclusion none exists. In addition, the owner of Masterpiece, in his brief, alleges the message expressed by his act of creating custom wedding cakes.

Masterpiece has a viable argument and a problem in this thread is too many are so quick to dismiss any notion there is an expressive message. If certain forms of erotic dancing have an expressive message, see Glen Theater v. Barnes, Barnes v. Glen Theatre, Inc., 501 U.S. 560 (1991), then it is rationally plausible something requiring skill and making use of techniques, shapes, colors, thickness, arrangements, as is the case with custom cake making, can also possess an expressive message in certain contexts, such as a wedding.

So what is the case law regarding items that are on the border line with message expression? A painting is commonly understood as a medium for expression as is dance. If a wedding cake can express a message in certain contexts then so could most other objects. If a cake is a message of celebration then so are balloons or a specially made birthday dinner. A gun is sending a message of "Back Off!". Is there any tests that have been established to help determine what counts as "speech" and what does not?
 
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NotreDame

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So what is the case law regarding items that are on the border line with message expression? A painting is commonly understood as a medium for expression as is dance. If a wedding cake can express a message in certain contexts then so could most other objects. If a cake is a message of celebration then so are balloons or a specially made birthday dinner. A gun is sending a message of "Back Off!". Is there any tests that have been established to help determine what counts as "speech" and what does not?

Balloons and nothing more? Doubtful. There isn't much skill, technique, etcetera, involved in blowing up a balloon and pinning it to a wall. Perhaps in the broader context of a wedding celebration a balloon is expressive, not by itself or its appearance, but as a part of and belonging to the broader celebratory theme of a wedding and wedding ceremony.

It's important to recall a wedding, and it's reception, is a ritual imbued with expressive speech. The choreograph of the wedding ceremony, as each participant walks at a particular time, their clothing and colors, the many decorations, colors, and ornaments.

The reception is also an exercise in expressive speech. The tables with decorations, the DJ to play music for people to dance to, the ornaments and displays at the reception, and of course the wedding cake. The cake is undoubtedly part of and belonging to the overall expressive message of the wedding and the parts of the wedding.

However, the custom made wedding cake, with the skill, technique, ingenuity, creativity, use of colors, layers, and arrangements, result in expressive speech in the cake itself as a celebratory message. There is a reason people will visit a specialty store to purchase a custom wedding cake as opposed to buying one from Walmart or out of the freezer at DQ. They want the craftsmanship, the art, the skill, and creativity with a custom made wedding cake. A specialty cake, specially made, for their special occasion. Hard to rationally compare this object to a balloon.

A reason why the painting is considered expressive is because of the skill, technique, etcetera, necessary to create the picture. Similarly, not everyone, even with the most tenacious and undaunted effort, can create the kind of cake pictured, or presumably the kinds of custom wedding cakes by Materpiece. To make those cakes requires skill, training, hours of practice, creativity, ingenuity, and, among others, various techniques. This isn't akin to a balloon.

Is skill involved in erotic dancing? Ingenuity? Creativity? Training? Practice? Yes, to some extent and the Court has recognized exotic dancing as expressive speech in certain cases contexts.

Flag burning, pinning peace sign to the flag, burning draft cards, wearing black arm band to school, have been acknowledged, in its context, as expressive speech.

There are two tests for expressive speech?

1. Intent to convey particularized message present and
2. Whether the likelihood was great that the message would be understood by those who viewed it.

I do think, under these facts and context, a custom wedding cake satisfies number one.

For the same reasons, I think number two is satisfied. I qualify these remarks by submitting they are made in regards to, generally, custom made cakes. Of course, facts may change the equation. However, according to the facts alleged in the brief, I'm inclined to believe one and two are met.

However, certain statements of fact the CO Court of Appeals are worrisome, and I'm trying to find the record of the hearing before the ALJ.
 
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Belk

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Balloons and nothing more? Doubtful. There isn't much skill, technique, etcetera, involved in blowing up a balloon and pinning it to a wall. Perhaps in the broader context of a wedding celebration a balloon is expressive, not by itself or its appearance, but as a part of and belonging to the broader celebratory theme of a wedding and wedding ceremony.

It's important to recall a wedding, and it's reception, is a ritual imbued with expressive speech. The choreograph of the wedding ceremony, as each participant walks at a particular time, their clothing and colors, the many decorations, colors, and ornaments.

The reception is also an exercise in expressive speech. The tables with decorations, the DJ to play music for people to dance to, the ornaments and displays at the reception, and of course the wedding cake. The cake is undoubtedly part of and belonging to the overall expressive message of the wedding and the parts of the wedding.

However, the custom made wedding cake, with the skill, technique, ingenuity, creativity, use of colors, layers, and arrangements, result in expressive speech in the cake itself as a celebratory message. There is a reason people will visit a specialty store to purchase a custom wedding cake as opposed to buying one from Walmart or out of the freezer at DQ. They want the craftsmanship, the art, the skill, and creativity with a custom made wedding cake. A specialty cake, specially made, for their special occasion. Hard to rationally compare this object to a balloon.

Exactly my point. There must be some test to determine what someone can rationally consider free speech. A test that says where the line is to be drawn.

A reason why the painting is considered expressive is because of the skill, technique, etcetera, necessary to create the picture. Similarly, not everyone, even with the most tenacious and undaunted effort, can create the kind of cake pictured, or presumably the kinds of custom wedding cakes by Materpiece. To make those cakes requires skill, training, hours of practice, creativity, ingenuity, and, among others, various techniques. This isn't akin to a balloon.

This I have to disagree with. I, as an unskilled artist, should expect that my painting which required no skill and bad technique to produce is just as much expressive speech as one created by a grand master. While skill can speak to artistry I do not see how that can be conflated with speech. Speech needs to be considered only by the intention to convey a message, or so it seems to me.

Is skill involved in erotic dancing? Ingenuity? Creativity? Training? Practice? Yes, to some extent and the Court has recognized exotic dancing as expressive speech in certain cases contexts.

Flag burning, pinning peace sign to the flag, burning draft cards, wearing black arm band to school, have been acknowledged, in its context, as expressive speech.

There are two tests for expressive speech?

1. Intent to convey particularized message present and
2. Whether the likelihood was great that the message would be understood by those who viewed it.

I do think, under these facts and context, a custom wedding cake satisfies number one.

Do you think the message is being sent by the baker or the purchaser of the cake? If the message is "We are celebrating" it seems to me it is the purchaser who is in this case expressing a message penned by someone else. I do not see the baker as celebrating in every event he bakes a a special cake.

For the same reasons, I think number two is satisfied. I qualify these remarks by submitting they are made in regards to, generally, custom made cakes. Of course, facts may change the equation. However, according to the facts alleged in the brief, I'm inclined to believe one and two are met.

Two I have an easier time with but with the caveat that I see the speech being by those who purchased the cake.

However, certain statements of fact the CO Court of Appeals are worrisome, and I'm trying to find the record of the hearing before the ALJ.

Be interested to hear your conclusions.
 
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NotreDame

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Be interested to hear your conclusions.

This I have to disagree with. I, as an unskilled artist, should expect that my painting which required no skill and bad technique to produce is just as much expressive speech as one created by a grand master. While skill can speak to artistry I do not see how that can be conflated with speech. Speech needs to be considered only by the intention to convey a message, or so it seems to me.

The "intention to convey a message" is discerned by the skill necessary to make the object. This is not to suggest an object made as a result of the crudest skill does not similarly constitute as expressive speech. It is rather difficult to discern the expressive message from the picture of art I posted but we can look at the "skill" necessary to make the kind/type of art to assist in reaching the conclusion there was an "intention to convey a message."

Do you think the message is being sent by the baker or the purchaser of the cake? If the message is "We are celebrating" it seems to me it is the purchaser who is in this case expressing a message penned by someone else. I do not see the baker as celebrating in every event he bakes a a special cake.

You are confusing ownership of speech with who is speaking. Disney may own Harrison Ford's expressive speech in all the SW movies but this does not change the fact Harrison Ford was doing the speaking when he was engaged in expressive speech. Similarly, those purchasing the custom made wedding cake may own the cake but they are owning the baker's expressive speech. After all, it is the baker who is engaged in expressive speech and is doing the speaking. Indeed, the customers are paying for his expressive speech, they are paying him to indeed speak. They fact they are purchasing his speech or paying for him to speak doesn't negate he is speaking.

So, someone comes to an artist and tells them they'd like a painting of a cabin in the woods. They pay the artist. The artist, with her talents, skills, creativity, and ingenuity, creates a painting of a cabin the woods. The customer didn't speak. The customer owns the artist's speech but the artist is the one speaking, not the customer. The customer is paying for the artist's speech.

Two I have an easier time with but with the caveat that I see the speech being by those who purchased the cake.

Purchasing the cake isn't speech. The customers didn't engage in any expressive speech. The customers are purchasing someone else's expressive speech. They may own the speech but it isn't their speech. They are purchasing and owning someone else's expressive speech. I refer to my artist example in the preceding paragraph.

Be interested to hear your conclusions.

Even if the custom wedding cake is expressive speech, under the Court's jurisprudence, I think the baker still loses.
 
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Belk

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The "intention to convey a message" is discerned by the skill necessary to make the object. This is not to suggest an object made as a result of the crudest skill does not similarly constitute as expressive speech. It is rather difficult to discern the expressive message from the picture of art I posted but we can look at the "skill" necessary to make the kind/type of art to assist in reaching the conclusion there was an "intention to convey a message."

I see. So skill in this case is not necessarily aptitude so much as it is ability coupled with intent?


You are confusing ownership of speech with who is speaking. Disney may own Harrison Ford's expressive speech in all the SW movies but this does not change the fact Harrison Ford was doing the speaking when he was engaged in expressive speech. Similarly, those purchasing the custom made wedding cake may own the cake but they are owning the baker's expressive speech. After all, it is the baker who is engaged in expressive speech and is doing the speaking. Indeed, the customers are paying for his expressive speech, they are paying him to indeed speak. They fact they are purchasing his speech or paying for him to speak doesn't negate he is speaking.

So, someone comes to an artist and tells them they'd like a painting of a cabin in the woods. They pay the artist. The artist, with her talents, skills, creativity, and ingenuity, creates a painting of a cabin the woods. The customer didn't speak. The customer owns the artist's speech but the artist is the one speaking, not the customer. The customer is paying for the artist's speech.



Purchasing the cake isn't speech. The customers didn't engage in any expressive speech. The customers are purchasing someone else's expressive speech. They may own the speech but it isn't their speech. They are purchasing and owning someone else's expressive speech. I refer to my artist example in the preceding paragraph.

Gotcha. So the same as if a customer went and bought a banner that said "Congrats on your marriage!". While they are purchasing it the printer is considered the originator of the speech.

Even if the custom wedding cake is expressive speech, under the Court's jurisprudence, I think the baker still loses.

Oh, why is that?
 
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Yes, in the seventh paragraph of the second article in the OP, he is found to have said:

“I’ll sell anyone any cake I’ve got,” he wrote. “But I won’t design a cake that promotes something that conflicts with the Bible’s teachings. And that rule applies to far more than cakes celebrating same-sex marriages. I also won’t use my talents to celebrate Halloween, anti-American or anti-family themes, atheism, racism, or indecency.”


Comparing being gay with cheating at business? Come on, be nice.
I am comparing that some people expect immorality to be readily accepted, and some people are not comfortable to be party to immorality.

You would benefit to think deeply upon the proverbial wisdom of King Soloman's observation of this behaviour:

"The righteous detest the unjust, and the wicked detest the upright".
I'd be curious to see any documentation of him saying or writing anything about this before the incident in question.

Funny how his web site doesn't say anything about it being a business intent on blessing things at all. It talks about baking cakes. In fact, it invites people to select from his gallery of cakes or go for a custom designed cakes without mentioning any sort of restrictions. Blessings aren't mentioned once. Where is all this stuff coming from after the fact? If it is true, why does he hide it from potential customers?
I am sure you have been in a situation where you have thought "dang, I wish I had explained it that way". Well, it's just that often we don't understand really why we are the way we are until we have sat down and made sense of it. Sometimes, it also helps to have an objective analytical perspective, such as I am doing. Anyway, while he is being expected to explain his objection before fully rationalising it, we should expect his words to contain some deficiency in fullness of understanding. However, if he is being honest, then those words should not contradict the fullness of understanding as it becomes manifest - this is what an investigation establishes so far as finding out the truth.

Also, there is often some reluctance (fear) to speak fully and openly about the way we truly feel, and in this case we can see that he is somewhat limited in his ability to speak in objection to homosexuality because people are particularly sensitive to the topic in the present times, and it carries a risk of provoking that bias to trigger an irrational reaction. It sounds like the laws for minority support were crafted in that vicinity while being under the influence of particular passion, lending themselves toward extremists who wish to use the law for unjust purposes.

Another wisdom of King Soloman is insightful toward this: Proverbs 28:12

"When the righteous triumph there is great glory, but when the wicked rise to power, people hide."

It is obvious that this man is somewhat concealing the full expression of his heart, because the wicked have some share of power, using law to trap and prosecute those who are upright. If he is to be fully open, bluntly honest with his words, he would be caught in their net (Proverbs 1:17).

The faithful have disappeared from the land,
and there is no one left who is upright;
they all lie in wait for blood,
and they hunt each other with nets.
Their hands are skilled to do evil;
the official and the judge ask for a bribe,
and the powerful dictate what they desire;
thus they pervert justice.
Micah 7:2-3

Ah, I see, thanks for that! He obviously does not feel grieved by blessing that celebration of love .. and why should he? Dogs are the most loving creatures on earth, by my observation. This gay couple has no interest in love, they have abandoned it to pursue hatred instead.

Essentially at the foundation of this, is dominance. You who argue that this man should be forced to do that which he doesn't enjoy doing, because he is offered money, you are of the mindset of enslavement. Your god is money, you think that money should have power to achieve anything at all. You do not realise that money only represents tangible goods that are in a process of exchange.

Money, when used in your way, is idolatry. Did it never occur to you, sir, that you are engaging in idolatry? What will you do when the greater idolater turns upon you? Is this something that you have thought much about? I do most seriously advise it:

Thus no one was allowed to buy or sell things unless he bore the mark of the beast--that is, his name or his number.

I wonder whether you have possibly not yet realised that you are promoting a tyrannical regime. There is yet an opportunity to avoid that calamity, it requires only that we maintain justice and righteousness, not empowering wickedness to thrive so that Yahweh is not provoked to wrath by His displeasure:

Then he said unto me, Hast thou seen this, O son of man? Is it a light thing to the house of Judah that they commit the abominations which they commit here? for they have filled the land with violence, and have turned again to provoke me to anger: and, lo, they put the branch to their nose. Therefore will I also deal in fury: mine eye shall not spare, neither will I have pity: and though they cry in mine ears with a loud voice, yet will I not hear them.
Ezekiel 18:17-18
Society decided long ago that refusing service to minorities based on religious beliefs isn't something that deserves respect.
First of all, I can see that you are struggling to decouple the idea of homophobia from religiosity. In fact, it is not simply a religious objection, it is a moral objection. It so happens that Mr. Phillip's understanding of his moral conviction at this time, is somewhat limited by his belief that morality is the exclusive property of Christianity, which of course neither you or I would agree is a valid belief.

Overlooking that, it can't have been the whole of society that agreed that a man should serve a minority simply because he is a minority; and even if it is a popular ethic in society, and even if it generally is a wholesome rule, it can't possibly make it right in every case. Law simply does not operate that way, because life's problems are so vast and complex, that no number of written decrees will ever define the comprehensive solution. The only thing that will resolve all problems, is a change in heart from being a person that is afraid of being deprived (forcing others to supply his needs), to one that loves to liberate others from his fear by pursuing contentment rather than covetousness.

It isn't a religious ideal either, it is about love and respect for our neighbours. It is being grateful to have whatever is sufficient for our needs. That is the pursuit of godliness transcending religion.

Essentially, the situation is like this:

They want to celebrate, and they want to present a cake at the celebration. They could certainly have made their own cake, but they wish to have a much more impressive cake than they are capable of crafting with their existing skill. They know of someone who is highly skilled and it is their desire to have a share of those skills in their celebration. Mr. Phillips, having a moral objection to their celebration, refuses to yield his body in service to their celebration. Instead of going home to bake their own cake, they wish to make sure that this man can by no means again refuse to act in a way that he does not wish to act.

Now, there is a glaring hypocrisy in this:

Did they end up getting a cake for their celebration elsewhere? And if so, why can they not be content with that cake?

Why must they seek to inflict revenge upon Mr. Phillips, attempting to force him to perform in future an act that makes him feel deeply disturbed?
 
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AllButNone

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There is an underlying fundamentally opposite principle to trade between your philosophy and mine, here. Whereas I see trade (and money) as being the willing exchange of goods or services at an agreed value, money is thereby a ledger of value for trades that take place. Your view is that money entitles the one having money, to expect to receive an item or service from someone who is known to provide goods and services in exchange for money, and you propose that money should be sufficient to force a willingness to trade.

That's not how I see money at all, so I'd thank you kindly if you didn't make assumptions or put words into my mouth.
 
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Your view is that money entitles the one having money, to expect to receive an item or service from someone who is known to provide goods and services in exchange for money, and you propose that money should be sufficient to force a willingness to trade.
That's not how I see money at all
I am prepared to be corrected, but by saying this, before I am able to understand and agree that your objection qualifies my repentance, I need you to explain the philosophy that motivates these comments:
  • Whether an artist should always be able to refuse, maybe not.
  • the cake maker has just as much obligation to make the cake
And I too, will thank you kindly :)
 
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AllButNone

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I am prepared to be corrected, but by saying this, before I am able to understand and agree that your objection qualifies my repentance, I need you to explain the philosophy that motivates these comments:

And I too, will thank you kindly :)

The underlying philosophy is that of human rights. In particular, we have the cake maker's right to freedom of speech weighed against the cake buyer's right to freedom from discrimination and, in my opinion, the cake buyer's right to freedom of speech. (though I imagine there's no legal weight to the latter)

Living in society and benefiting from its laws, I tend to subscribe to the idea that we tacitly agree to uphold the rights of others. However, there are big questions about how we weigh rights against each other, and even what these rights should be. If an artist is violating the rights of others in refusing to do something, then it's from this that I believe that an artist may be compelled to act. Ie, in tacitly subscribing to the rights decided by society, I believe the cake maker has some obligation to make the cake. (But to note, this does need to be weighed against his free speech rights, which are also very important.)

This isn't about money. There are plenty of human rights situations where no money is involved and somebody should be compelled to a certain action. At the same time, there are plenty of non-discriminatory reasons for a cake maker to refuse to make a cake that I believe are totally acceptable, including just wanting a day off. Money itself does not of itself entitle a purchaser to a good.

Just to add, there's plenty of room for disagreement on human rights issues. What those rights are, how they're derived, and how they measure against each other are all complex questions. That's why we discuss such things, and why we bicker about them so fiercely. There aren't always clear answers.
 
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The underlying philosophy is that of human rights. In particular, we have the cake maker's right to freedom of speech weighed against the cake buyer's right to freedom from discrimination and, in my opinion, the cake buyer's right to freedom of speech. (though I imagine there's no legal weight to the latter)

Living in society and benefiting from its laws, I tend to subscribe to the idea that we tacitly agree to uphold the rights of others. However, there are big questions about how we weigh rights against each other, and even what these rights should be. If an artist is violating the rights of others in refusing to do something, then it's from this that I believe that an artist may be compelled to act. Ie, in tacitly subscribing to the rights decided by society, I believe the cake maker has some obligation to make the cake. (But to note, this does need to be weighed against his free speech rights, which are also very important.)

This isn't about money. There are plenty of human rights situations where no money is involved and somebody should be compelled to a certain action. At the same time, there are plenty of non-discriminatory reasons for a cake maker to refuse to make a cake that I believe are totally acceptable, including just wanting a day off. Money itself does not of itself entitle a purchaser to a good.

Just to add, there's plenty of room for disagreement on human rights issues. What those rights are, how they're derived, and how they measure against each other are all complex questions. That's why we discuss such things, and why we bicker about them so fiercely. There aren't always clear answers.
Hey, thank you for explaining that! I can see that you were right to object to my assumption of your motive. I can see that you have forgiven me, and I thank you for that :) It did create a useful tangent though, and there's certainly plenty of people with that demanding attitude toward money, so I would like to thank you for that too!

Now as I address this, my concern is centred around why you believe this cake maker should be obligated to act for this couple. I suppose that you do not really sympathise with the cake maker's objection .. probably you view sex and marriage as ultimately being the right of a pair to decide and you would also consider that God's opinion toward it is either optional or fictitious.

So I need to enquire of your views on marriage, and that is of course a personal opinion dependent upon one's own personal philosophy for the purpose of marriage.

Let me explain how the Christian philosophy may put it:

In the natural order of things, a male and a female are both needed for procreation. The female is well suited to child-rearing and the male is well suited to labouring for food and other supplies. One way or another, it is common knowledge that the female needs intercourse from the male to produce offspring, so it is recognised that the offspring is the product of a mother and a father. Therefore, the offspring is the property of the mother and the father, for the purpose of protecting, feeding and training it. This is how the concept of a family unit has originated. Through civilisations where property ownership is defined by physical boundaries and people lived independently within communities, it became practicable for a mother and a father to commit exclusively for the purpose of partnership in life. Following that order of things, a child, when it is of age, will be paired and will commit exclusively for the purpose of partnership in life, in turn producing and rearing offspring. (This partly describes a deep wisdom that propelled the words in Genesis 2:24).

So where a homosexual couple wishes to commit to a life-long matrimonial relationship, it is actually rejecting the natural order of things by declaring that there is officially no hope henceforth for marriage to occur according to the way it naturally should. One can see through this lens, that homosexual matrimony is a perversion of the natural order of things, and to equate it to heterosexual matrimony is actually a mockery of the sanctity of marriage itself.

Although we can only speculate why Mr. Phillips is so staunchly opposed to it, it is still a fact that his moral conviction is rightly placed according to nature and by extension, God Himself. If law will deprive Him of his right to freedom of moral conscience, such that he is forced to act in service to oppose the laws of nature, then certainly we have seen that mankind's laws are outright opposing God's laws from his perspective. When The Holy Spirit lives within us and Mr. Phillips treasures Him, if Mr. Phillips finds that The Holy Spirit is grieved by his yielding to be complicit in a perversion of nature, then the legislators acting for mankind are then forced to decide whether they will actively oppose God by forcing His people to grievous service against the natural order (see how Matthew 24:12 is sitting amidst other warnings).
 
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NotreDame

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Oh, why is that?

Because of the following language:



"speech" and "nonspeech" elements are combined in the same course of conduct, a sufficiently important governmental interest in regulating the nonspeech element can justify incidental limitations on First Amendment freedoms, O'Brien, supra, at 376, we have limited the applicability of O'Brien'srelatively lenient standard to those cases in which "the governmental interest is unrelated to the suppression of free expression." Id. at 377; see also Spence, 418 U.S. at 414, n. 8.

In stating, moreover, that O'Brien's test "in the last analysis is little, if any, different from the standard applied to time, place, or manner restrictions," Clark, supra, at 298, we have highlighted the requirement that the governmental interest in question be unconnected to expression in order to come under O'Brien's less demanding rule.





 
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AllButNone

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Now as I address this, my concern is centred around why you believe this cake maker should be obligated to act for this couple. I suppose that you do not really sympathise with the cake maker's objection .. probably you view sex and marriage as ultimately being the right of a pair to decide and you would also consider that God's opinion toward it is either optional or fictitious.

Maybe it would be better if we took this to private messages? It's not really fair to other people in this thread to continue on a big tangent. If you'd like, PM me.
 
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Belk

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Because of the following language:



"speech" and "nonspeech" elements are combined in the same course of conduct, a sufficiently important governmental interest in regulating the nonspeech element can justify incidental limitations on First Amendment freedoms, O'Brien, supra, at 376, we have limited the applicability of O'Brien'srelatively lenient standard to those cases in which "the governmental interest is unrelated to the suppression of free expression." Id. at 377; see also Spence, 418 U.S. at 414, n. 8.

In stating, moreover, that O'Brien's test "in the last analysis is little, if any, different from the standard applied to time, place, or manner restrictions," Clark, supra, at 298, we have highlighted the requirement that the governmental interest in question be unconnected to expression in order to come under O'Brien's less demanding rule.




Ah! So while it might be considered expression it might also be he case that the state has an overwhelming interest in limiting said expression?
 
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NotreDame

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Ah! So while it might be considered expression it might also be he case that the state has an overwhelming interest in limiting said expression?

Essentially. Yes.
 
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Oh, why is that?
The courts have already ruled the 1st amendment isn't a blanket excuse to break other laws when the exercise of those rights by an individual harms others. This is a good opportunity to continue that tradition.
 
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