Can you be saved without Christ?

Muslim-UK said:

Thank you but remember, He had a God that I worship alone, the only one who can save.

Sorry but that's not the context. Eat what you want as long as no one tells you it is dedicated to idols. Paul didn't care and he did it in some cases, so that he might convert people.

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You keep twisting Paul's word. He already said you can eat only what's good for God.

Look at What Jesus said in Mark 7:

Muslim-UK said:

Jesus pbuh said, he was just a man (John 8:40). You could show verses were he performed miracles, but I could keep going back to the passage which says, he is just a man, and around and around we go in a continuous loop.

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He is a man, but he is also word of God. It is my understanding that the word of God, which is full of power, became a man (the word of God can became many man if it wants, because God can do what so ever) and showed us what a rightus man is, showed us what is needed to be saved, and saved us by die an earthly death and raised by God, so that "many can be saved".

Muslim-UK said:

You keep missing the context over and over again. Judge by the Injeel given to Jesus pbuh - Single Gospel. Christians lost a good part of it. Today you have 4 injeels by mark, matthew, luke and john. How can you judge by something you have lost? You can't as I keep showing. You can't Judge criminal cases, only encourage thieves, rapists, and murderers to hide from the authorities. Can you imagine if the World was run like that :/

What about civil matters? Perhaps you could argue the Qur'an is telling them to Judge in this area. What are the rules on divorce, inheritance, property and business dealings.

Case study: A widowed man with 2 boys aged 5 and 14 marries again, his new wife also has 2 sons from a previous marriage. Her new Husband dies, she is fond of the smaller child, but was mean to the older boy. What happens to his children? He left behind parents, brothers and sisters. What Law did Jesus pbuh pass in this regard?

Qur'an 5:47 And let the People of the Gospel judge by what Allah has revealed therein. And whoever does not judge by what Allah has revealed - then it is those who are the defiantly disobedient.

Qur'an 5:48 And We have revealed to you, [O Muhammad], the Book in truth, confirming that which preceded it of the Scripture and as a criterion over it. So judge between them by what Allah has revealed and do not follow their inclinations away from what has come to you of the truth. To each of you We prescribed a law and a method. Had Allah willed, He would have made you one nation [united in religion], but [He intended] to test you in what He has given you; so race to [all that is] good. To Allah is your return all together, and He will [then] inform you concerning that over which you used to differ.

Qur'an 4:157 And [for] their saying, "Indeed, we have killed the Messiah, Jesus, the son of Mary, the messenger of Allah ." And they did not kill him, nor did they crucify him; but [another] was made to resemble him to them. And indeed, those who differ over it are in doubt about it. They have no knowledge of it except the following of assumption. And they did not kill him, for certain.

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You actually keeps missing my point, if the Quran says Jews/Christians are good to be judged by their own book, as they has been for centuries, and you come and declare they lost their book and can't be judged, you are contradicting to your own scripture.

You rejected your own scripture, despit such clear writings. If even Muhammad needs to confirm his doubts with Jews/Christians, you must think you are smarter than him with your mordern knowledge.

As for your case study, no one is worth of God, so we should always remember to show others mercy, because how we judge others is the same God will judge us. People will change, people's laws will change to suit their new era, and God know that, and he laid the ground rule and let us come up with what's best, which will fail short of God till God's kingdom come. 7th century arabic laws are not suited of this mordern world, just watch ISIS try to do that in Syria.

Muslim-UK said:

Who says he was crucified? The 4 Gospels of course. Are the 4 gospels from Allah swt? NO obviously not.

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remember blind following is forbidden (or something of the same said by you)? Why are the 4 gospels not from God when Christians used them for centuriles before Muhammad and Quran said Christians should be judged by Gospels (and yet not one word of warning on the 4 authors, or Paul). Does Muhammad know about this? If he is indeed a prophet he would, and if he didn't say anything about the 4 books (and yet mentioned don't worship God/mary/Jesus as Gods), it is clear he think this is OK.

Muslim-UK said:

Loving your neighbour is part and parcel of loving God. Jesus pbuh said keep Torah and be more righteous than the Pharisees. He said, if you don't then you will be called least in the Kingdom of Heaven. Anyone who tells you otherwise is a liar. You reject this message in favour of someone else's gospel.

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When did I reject the message? Jesus did say keep the commandment of God and be more righteous than the Pharisees, and all of us has to do that to go to heaven. We have to do that by loving God instead of fearing of hell, else you will not be more righteious than Pharisees.

Robban said:

The Earth was cursed, man would have to work his cobblers off to make a living, woman would give birth with pain.

Or so it goes.

Has anything changed?

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Brother, on this Earth nothing has changed in terms of suffering, but we are not of this world as our Father is not of this world. We are to work and prepare for His Kingdom, not this world.

May God bless you, brothers and sisters in Jesus name i pray. Amen

macek said:

Brother, on this Earth nothing has changed in terms of suffering, but we are not of this world as our Father is not of this world. We are to work and prepare for His Kingdom, not this world.

May God bless you, brothers and sisters in Jesus name i pray. Amen

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I never mentioned suffering.

I was saying,
"because you....."

this is what will happen.

you say the price has been paid, 2,000 yrs ago, roughly,

What I wonder over is,

Is it not about time the sanctions were lifted?

Muslim-UK said:

Is this the spoken 'word' uttered by God the Father?

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As per John, the word was with God and the word was God, so the word of God is part of God (yet is not God, as you can't claim my hand is me).

Muslim-UK said:

You don't have the Injeel to judge by, and what you have today can't help Judge much at all.

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Not according to your scripture, which told clearly let the Christians judged by Gospel.

Muslim-UK said:

If he had doubts about the story of the Israelites.

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So Torah should be able to get doubt out of Muhammad?

Muslim-UK said:

Qur'an says Gospel - Singular. Injeel given to Jesus pbuh, did he walk around preaching from Mark, Matthew, Luke or John? Of course not.

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We call it the Bible, including the Gospel and Torah and other books, singular. John/Mark/Matt/Luke collected his word and teachings, just like Muslims collected Muhammad's teachings and made it into Qruan.

Muslim-UK said:

He told us what he thinks:

Narrated Ubaidullah: Ibn 'Abbas said, "Why do you ask the people of the scripture about anything while your Book (Quran) which has been revealed to Allah's Apostle is newer and the latest? You read it pure, undistorted and unchanged, and Allah has told you that the people of the scripture (Jews and Christians) changed their scripture and distorted it, and wrote the scripture with their own hands and said, 'It is from Allah,' to sell it for a little gain. Does not the knowledge which has come to you prevent you from asking them about anything? No, by Allah, we have never seen any man from them asking you regarding what has been revealed to you!" (Bukhari Volume 9, Book 92, Number 461)

Changing the words of Jesus pbuh are we? He said keep Torah, be more righteous than the Pharisees. His own brother showed you what that meant.

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If that is the case didn't he know that the Gospel were written by multiple people? If so why didn't he mention it? Instead the Quran said let the Christians judged by Gospel and let the Jews judged by Torah, and if in doubt as the people before him (which is Jews and Christians), but let's use your explanation, if Muhammad has doubt talk to the Jews, which according to you their book is corrupted. It is clearly you have twisted your prophet's word and meaning.

Muslim-UK said:

So how many gods are there then if the word on earth is one god, the word with the father is a god, the father is a god and the holy spirit is a god. If you say the same word is both with the father and on Earth, then how can the word on earth be lacking the attributes that God possesses? God is unlike his creation, whereas Jesus pbuh was a man. God has all knowledge, yet Jesus pbuh is limited, God is immortal, yet the word on Earth died for 3 days.

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There is only one God. God used his word to do something on earth, there is still one God. I used my hand to do something, there is still one me.

God's word didn't die, God's spirit (word) left that body down there and returned to the body

Muslim-UK said:

The Christian Scripture is called the New Testament. The Qur'an makes no mention of any such book, rather it mentions a single Injeel, which you do not have. When you find it, then you can Judge by it.

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We call the Torah OT too, that is just a name. If the Quran said Christians are good to be judged by their book and Jews are good to judge by their book, and if Muhammad got questions ask the Jews (or people of the book), it is clear Muhammad knows the books used by Jews/Christians for thousands/hundred years are good. But you are claim otherwise from your prophet.

Muslim-UK said:

"Woe to those who write the Book with their own hands and say this is from Allah swt. I guess you keep forgetting that verse.

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Revelation 22:18-19 says, "For I testify unto everyone who hears the words of the prophecy of this book, if anyone adds to these things, God will add to him the plagues that are written in this book; And if anyone takes away from the words of this book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part from the Book of Life, and from the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

God will punish whoever tries to change his message and make them pay.

Muslim-UK said:

Where does the verse say talk to them about their scripture or get confirmation from the Torah? In context which I showed many posts earlier, it is telling him about the journey of the Israelites. Ask them about Moses pbuh and what happened IF you are in doubt. Was he in doubt? After his initial meeting with Gabriel pbuh, yes but he was reassured, and thereafter he was never in doubt, only sad if there was a pause in revelation.

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He is in doubt, becuase God told him if he is ever in doubt check people of the book. It is Quran which said that not me.

Just keep it simple
John 3:16
For God ao loved the world He gave His only begotten son that whoever believes in Him shall not perish but have eternal life

Faith is a choice of lifestyle to repent of sins and submit to the son fo God so Jesus can bring you to His father
In the resurection

Muslim-UK said:

So the words spoken by God became a separate being on Earth, or did God Himself come down to Earth, thereby still complete?

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Do you deny that God can stick his hand down and took total control of a human body? Similarly God's word can became the form of a human body (or the form of an angle, or fire, or whatever God so wishes).

Muslim-UK said:

so who/what actually died on the cross?

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The body of Jesus Christ.

Muslim-UK said:

Perhaps just show me from Scripture where God calls the Torah the 'Old Testament'.

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You are trying to stretch it .
Go to the Gospel and there is no such terms as OT or NT. It is just a human word. Just like in Quran Jesus is called Isa, but it is actually pronounced Yeshua. Even Quran has to translate the name of Jesus into arabic.

Muslim-UK said:

Muhammad pbuh said, don't ask anything from people whose Scriptures have been changed. I showed you the Hadith.

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And I showed you multiple Quran verses that confirmed the people of the book has scriptures that are totally usable according to Quran. What do you trust, Quran or hadith? It is so clear that the people of the book can use their own scripture according to Quran (yes there are people trying to change but God will not let his light to the word get corrupted).

Muslim-UK said:

I guess whoever added 'Son of God' to Mark 1:1 didn't know that verse. Btw just so you know, when Revelation was written, there was no book called the NT.

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I know, NT is just a term we used, God send Jesus to tech us the good news, and the message of God won't corrupt.

Muslim-UK said:

Where does it say that?

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10:94 So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

If Torah/Gospel indeed got mostly lost/corrupted and can't be used, why would Quran ask Muhammad to confirm his scripture with people who were reading the scriptures before him?