Salvation?

stuart lawrence · Jun 4, 2017

def said:
You mentioned two parts of the covenant, I believe there are four parts (Hebrews 8:10-12).
I will write put my laws...
I will be their God, and they shall be my people...
They will know Me..
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.

.

Those who have the two main clauses of the new covenant know God, and God is their God.
Hence:
This is the covenant I will make with them after that time says the Lord
I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more
Heb10:6&17

Bible Highlighter · Jun 4, 2017

JESUS=G.O.A.T said:
the situation with the thief is circumstancial, the thief happened to be dying next to the son of god in a vital moment of history. If we denied Christ all our lives and was dying it's not the same because we are post pentocost 6th period of time.

Saved by circumstances does not sound right to me; And it does not sound like what the Bible says. Saved by Jesus sounds more in line with what the Scriptures say.

You said:
Also if there are verses such as john 3:5,

Born of water is talking about being born by the seed of the Word of God.
In the Parable of the Sower we are told that the seed is the Word of God (Luke 8:11).
We are born by the incorruptible seed of the Word of God (1 Peter 1:23).

Ephesians 5:25-27 says we are cleansed by the washing of the WATER of the Word.
For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.
You have to hear Scripture or the Bible to some capacity to be saved.
A person has to have a spiritual connection with the Word of God in what it says to be saved.
If not, then a person is going to reject the Bible.
There are people today who believe in parts of the Bible.
They do not believe it completely.

I will address your other verses later (When I have time).
For now, I gotta run.

May God bless you; And please be well.

...

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Jun 4, 2017

Jason0047 said:
Saved by circumstances does not sound right to me; And it does not sound like what the Bible says. Saved by Jesus sounds more in line with what the Scriptures say.

Born of water is talking about being born by the seed of the Word of God.
In the Parable of the Sower we are told that the seed is the Word of God (Luke 8:11).
We are born by the incorruptible seed of the Word of God (1 Peter 1:23).

Ephesians 5:25-27 says we are cleansed by the washing of the WATER of the Word.
For faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.
You have to hear Scripture or the Bible to some capacity to be saved.
A person has to have a spiritual connection with the Word of God in what it says to be saved.
If not, then a person is going to reject the Bible.
There are people today who believe in parts of the Bible.
They do not believe it completely.

I will address your other verses later (When I have time).
For now, I gotta run.

May God bless you; And please be well.

...

I never said Jesus didnt save them... in fact I said Jesus in the flesh saved them. It's circumstantial based because the thief happened to be next to Jesus Christ in the flesh when he was about to die. Sure everything has a purpose and clearly the situation did cause it's in the Bible I'm not disputing that. But at the same time it's not everyday that you wake up or you're about to die in sin and Jesus in the flesh is dying next to you. He and the other thief were the only ones in the Bible who were in such a situation. We don't have the luxury of having Jesus in the flesh with us like he did, we are in the 6th period of time not the 5th like he was. In the 5th Jesus walked the earth and you could be saved that way by him straight up. We are the acts church and thus we follow acts 2;38 while we have time to because when we die... we can't just look at Jesus in the flesh and ask to be saved. This is post pentocost and post Jesus resurrection a new age. And to address you response to verse john 3:5 it's actually referring to the spiritual birth that is mentioned in ezekiel 36:27, Joel 2:28-29, acts 2, 2 Corinthians 3:16-18 , acts 19 etc. or aka the born again experience. Born of spirit refers to the Holy Spirit, and born of water baptism. Ik acts 2:38 can be abused but it's important to really let the scripture sink in... baptism is held to be just as important as repentance and the infilling of the Holy Ghost in that verse and many others in acts as well. We can't just dismiss the emphasis of baptism by peter here. . And k I'll wait for your response to the other scriptures later I understand life is a busy thing haha I'm on vacation now in Cabo San Lucas so chilling but yeah god bless.

LadyCrosstalk · Jun 4, 2017

def said:
Believe is another word that is mis-understood. When Jesus told Mary and Martha to roll away the stone in front of Lazarus' tomb, the ladies put on their thinking cap, hey, Lazarus died four days ago. Jesus said to them if they believe they will see the glory of God (John 11). They believed and roll away the stone, and Jesus called Lazarus out.

The Greek word, for the verb, "to believe" was pistaeo. It included behavior consistent with what one said one believed. What we "know" is sometimes unrelated to what we "believe". "Blessed are they who do not see and yet believe."

SpiritRehab · Jun 5, 2017

Thedictator said:
Act 2:38

The Word of God is True, but its not the only way. In Acts 10:30-44 the Holy Spirit fell on them as they were still listening to the Gospel Message. I listed this one, because it's part of the list of passages that shows it from God's perspective. What makes Him choose to whom He gives His Spirit

JESUS=G.O.A.T · Jun 5, 2017

SpiritRehab said:
The Word of God is True, but its not the only way. In Acts 10:30-44 the Holy Spirit fell on them as they were still listening to the Gospel Message. I listed this one, because it's part of the list of passages that shows it from God's perspective. What makes Him choose to whom He gives His Spirit

True I got the Holy Spirit myself during a gospel message but I did get baptized years before though. Either way I know many who got the spirit before being baptized there's no order or required pre state to get the spirit. You just have to cry out and surrender to god and let him fill you. There was a guy who came in church drunk and surrendered to go not being baptized or even officially really repenting in some way who got the Holy Spirit one time. If you just give it all to god and ask you will receive.

ladodgers6 · Jun 5, 2017

hedrick said:
Translating “flesh” by “human effort” is also an interpretation, and possibly a misleading one. Paul speaks of “works of the Law.” What he means by this is in the first place circumcision, though Rom 1 - 3 does suggest a broader view of the Law. But still, he’s speaking of a certain kind of human effort, one which is driven by a legal requirements whose original goal included distinguishing Israel from Gentiles — a separation that Paul believes Christ’s death negates.

In Romans Paul is preaching Law & Gospel. In Romans 1-3, Paul is explicitly stating that we ALL are under the curse of the Law, because of our sin. And that Jews do not have an excuse because they are Jewish and have the Law. Because ALL have sinned and fallen short of the Glory of God. When we judge other people, we condemn ourselves. And because of our sin, we are under the righteous wrath of God. Because as you said before, yes we are to obey the Law. Because that is God's will. But it has to be obeyed perfectly without a single blemish of sin from birth. But this is impossible because of our sinful condition and our being formed in sin from the womb, because we are imputed with Adam's sin and guilt. In Adam we are under condemnation, sin and death. In other words there is no hope for us in the first Adam. This is the Law, that it demands perfect righteousness or else. The Law the sinner is to expose our filthy rags, and accuse us of our wretchedness before a Holy God. There is no Mercy under the Law, only demands of perfect Obedience.

But a righteousness is revealed apart from the Law. And is given 'FREELY' in the Second/Last Adam. By His perfect obedience, and death for us. We are freed from the accusations of the Law that condemns sinners. The Gospel of Grace gives us what the Holy Law demands of us. Christ stood in our place to take the full righteous wrath of a Holy God upon His head for us. And He clothes us in His Righteousness and Sanctification like white robes. This is the good news and God's Grace that justifies the ungodly. Trusting not in ourselves, but in another whom God has sent to save us.

"The Law is for the proud and the Gospel for the brokenhearted." - Martin Luther

“Ignorance of the distinction between the Law and Gospel is one of the principle sources of all the abuses which corrupt and still corrupt Christianity.” –Theodore Beza.

"When God gives orders and tells us what will happen if we fail to obey those orders perfectly, that is in the category of what the reformers, following the biblical text, called law. When God promises freely, providing for us because of Christ's righteousness the status he demands of us, this is in the category of gospel. It is good news from start to finish. The Bible includes both, and the reformers were agreed that the Scriptures taught clearly that the law, whether Old or New Testament commands, was not eliminated for the believer (those from a Dispensational background may notice a difference here). Nevertheless, they insisted that nothing in this category of law could be a means of justification or acceptance before a holy God ... The law comes, not to reform the sinner nor to show him or her the "narrow way" to life, but to crush the sinner's hopes of escaping God's wrath through personal effort or even cooperation. All of our righteousness must come from someone else-someone who has fulfilled the law's demands. Only after we have been stripped of our "filthy rags" of righteousness (Isa. 64:6)- our fig leaves through which we try in vain to hide our guilt and shame-can we be clothed with Christ's righteousness. First comes the law to proclaim judgment and death, then the gospel to proclaim justification and life. One of the clearest presentations of this motif is found in Paul's Epistle to the Galatians. In the sixteenth century, the issue of law and grace was more clearly dealt with than at almost any other time since the apostles."

Modern Reformation Good News: The Gospel for Christians (May/June 2003)

The Law drives us to another who saves SINNERS! This is the distinction between Law & Gospel in relation to justification by Faith Alone! If one does not understand this. Then how are they to worship and give praise and thanksgiving to God who saves the ungodly? This is the heart to why we live to God. Why we do good deeds. Out of Love to God, not because we are maintaining or attempting to earn favor with God. But because God first LOVED us, and saved us!

PeaceJoyLove · Jun 6, 2017

hedrick said:
I believe that Jesus would say that salvation is by following him (a commitment that is equivalent to what Paul referred to as faith), which means caring for others and showing it in action, humility and repentance, and forgiving others.

Both Jesus and Paul, while saying that we would be judged by our actions, were clear that we had to start with motivation. Jesus spoke of caring about others and obedience to him, Paul about faith. Without that, we get into legalism, which Jesus and Paul in varying ways condemned.

About Paul, it’s worth pointing out that justification was by faith, but not salvation or judgement. Indeed many scholars will tell you that Paul taught justification by faith and judgement by works.

My sense is that both aspects have to be there, that salvation consists of a life that includes both proper motivation (faith, obedience and love) and the resulting action, and that we get in trouble if we omit either.

Note by the way that Jesus seems to have emphasized positive action. That is, for him we would be judged by whether we made a difference for others, and not by whether we sinned, as sin is normally understood by Christians (which is violating rules). He certainly opposed sin, but didn’t speak of people ending up rejected because they sinned too much, but because they were useless to others, failed to obey his message, or because they failed to forgive others.

(RE: In bold...) Really?? Hedrick, it is so important to read the Bible. Scripture seems to say something else...The Gospel of Jesus Christ promised to come with power to cause us to be overcomers.

1 John 5:4 “For everyone who has been born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.”

Romans 8:2 For in Christ Jesus the law of the Spirit of life has set you free from the law of sin and death.

Romans 6:23 For the wages of sin is death

James 1:5 Then desire when it has conceived gives birth to sin, and sin when it is fully grown brings forth death.

1 John 3:6-10 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

John 8:34 Jesus answered them, “Truly, truly, I say to you, everyone who commits sin is a slave to sin.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we go on sinning deliberately after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins,

James 1:14 But each person is tempted when he is lured and enticed by his own desire.

1 Timothy 2:19 But God's firm foundation stands, bearing this seal: “The Lord knows those who are his,” and, “Let everyone who names the name of the Lord depart from iniquity.”

PeaceJoyLove · Jun 6, 2017

JoeP222w said:
Luke 23:39-43 One of the criminals who were hanged railed at him, saying, "Are you not the Christ? Save yourself and us!" (40) But the other rebuked him, saying, "Do you not fear God, since you are under the same sentence of condemnation? (41) And we indeed justly, for we are receiving the due reward of our deeds; but this man has done nothing wrong." (42) And he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." (43) And he said to him, "Truly, I say to you, today you will be with me in Paradise."

So how do you exegete this passage? The thief was not baptized.

The thief KNEW Jesus was Christ and to where He was going. How many are baptized and still do not truly know who HE is and what He completed on the cross? It was part of His baptism...

Luke 12:50 I have a baptism to be baptized with, and how great is my distress until it is accomplished!

Mark 10:37 They said unto him, Grant unto us that we may sit, one on thy right hand, and the other on thy left hand, in thy glory.

38 But Jesus said unto them, Ye know not what ye ask: can ye drink of the cup that I drink of? and be baptized with the baptism that I am baptized with?

39 And they said unto him, We can. And Jesus said unto them, Ye shall indeed drink of the cup that I drink of; and with the baptism that I am baptized withal shall ye be baptized:

JoeP222w · Jun 7, 2017

PeaceJoyLove said:
The thief KNEW Jesus was Christ and to where He was going. How many are baptized and still do not truly know who HE is and what He completed on the cross?

True, but I think my response was for those who promote water baptism as a requirement for salvation. I was not referring to being born again. Being born again is a spiritual gift from God.

PeaceJoyLove · Jun 7, 2017

JoeP222w said:
True, but I think my response was for those who promote water baptism as a requirement for salvation. I was not referring to being born again. Being born again is a spiritual gift from God.

Yes...was just supporting what you said, Joe.

JoeP222w · Jun 7, 2017

PeaceJoyLove said:
Yes...was just supporting what you said, Joe.

Ok. I just wanted to clarify, if I could.

ladodgers6 · Jun 7, 2017

JoeP222w said:
True, but I think my response was for those who promote water baptism as a requirement for salvation. I was not referring to being born again. Being born again is a spiritual gift from God.

Sounds you both are on the same page.

brinny · Jun 7, 2017

hedrick said:
I believe that Jesus would say that salvation is by following him (a commitment that is equivalent to what Paul referred to as faith), which means caring for others and showing it in action, humility and repentance, and forgiving others.

Both Jesus and Paul, while saying that we would be judged by our actions, were clear that we had to start with motivation. Jesus spoke of caring about others and obedience to him, Paul about faith. Without that, we get into legalism, which Jesus and Paul in varying ways condemned.

About Paul, it’s worth pointing out that justification was by faith, but not salvation or judgement. Indeed many scholars will tell you that Paul taught justification by faith and judgement by works.

My sense is that both aspects have to be there, that salvation consists of a life that includes both proper motivation (faith, obedience and love) and the resulting action, and that we get in trouble if we omit either.

Note by the way that Jesus seems to have emphasized positive action. That is, for him we would be judged by whether we made a difference for others, and not by whether we sinned, as sin is normally understood by Christians (which is violating rules). He certainly opposed sin, but didn’t speak of people ending up rejected because they sinned too much, but because they were useless to others, failed to obey his message, or because they failed to forgive others.

We will be judged whether we are covered with our Savior's righteousness (covered by His blood) or not. It is equivalent, akin, if you will, of the blood covered door posts of the Israelites in Egypt when they were admonished to cover each of their door posts with blood. The angel of death would then "pass over" any door post covered in the blood of the sacrificial lamb.

Anyone covered in the Messiah's blood will be "passed over" at the Great White Throne judgement. They will be deemed "righteous". For they have repented, acknowledging their sinful selves, that they were lost and headed for destruction (hell), and they recognize that they have sinned against a holy God, and that Jesus Christ died for them. In addition they testify to the risen Messiah, and love God with all their hearts, minds, souls, and strength, as the "fruits of the spirit" are seen "budding" in their lives, testifying to a heart that is akin to God the Father's own heart.

ladodgers6 · Jun 7, 2017

brinny said:
We will be judged whether we are covered with our Savior's righteousness (covered by His blood) or not. It is equivalent, akin, if you will, of the blood covered door posts of the Israelites in Egypt when they were admonished to cover each of their door posts with blood. The angel of death would then "pass over" any door post covered in the blood of the sacrificial lamb.

Anyone covered in the Messiah's blood will be "passed over" at the Great White Throne judgement. They will be deemed "righteous". For they have repented, acknowledging their sinful selves, that they were lost and headed for destruction (hell), and they recognize that they have sinned against a holy God, and that Jesus Christ died for them. In addition they testify to the risen Messiah, and love God with all their hearts, minds, souls, and strength, as the "fruits of the spirit" are seen "budding" in their lives, testifying to a heart that is akin to God the Father's own heart.

Great post. If I may add this from the Heidelberg Catechism:

62. Q.
But why can our good works not be
our righteousness before God,
or at least a part of it?
A.
Because the righteousness
which can stand before God's judgment
must be absolutely perfect
and in complete agreement
with the law of God, 1
whereas even our best works in this life
are all imperfect and defiled with sin. 2

1. Deut 27:26; Gal 3:10.
2. Is 64:6.

63. Q.
But do our good works earn nothing,
even though God promises to reward them
in this life and the next? 1
A.
This reward is not earned;
it is a gift of grace. 2

1. Mt 5:12; Heb 11:6.
2. Lk 17:10; 2 Tim 4:7, 8.

64. Q.
Does this teaching not make people
careless and wicked?
A.
No.
It is impossible
that those grafted into Christ
by true faith
should not bring forth
fruits of thankfulness. 1

1. Mt 7:18; Lk 6:43-45; Jn 15:5.

brinny · Jun 7, 2017

ladodgers6 said:
Great post. If I may add this from the Heidelberg Catechism:

62. Q.
But why can our good works not be
our righteousness before God,
or at least a part of it?
A.
Because the righteousness
which can stand before God's judgment
must be absolutely perfect
and in complete agreement
with the law of God, 1
whereas even our best works in this life
are all imperfect and defiled with sin. 2

1. Deut 27:26; Gal 3:10.

2. Is 64:6.

63. Q.
But do our good works earn nothing,
even though God promises to reward them
in this life and the next? 1
A.
This reward is not earned;
it is a gift of grace. 2

1. Mt 5:12; Heb 11:6.

2. Lk 17:10; 2 Tim 4:7, 8.

64. Q.
Does this teaching not make people
careless and wicked?
A.
No.
It is impossible
that those grafted into Christ
by true faith
should not bring forth
fruits of thankfulness. 1

1. Mt 7:18; Lk 6:43-45; Jn 15:5.

Thank you and amen.

What also came to mind is that all of our own righteousness is likened to filthy rags, so even if we cannot, with our own finite and limited "vision", see all of the utter filthiness, God can.

ladodgers6 · Jun 7, 2017

brinny said:
Thank you and amen.

What also came to mind is that all of our own righteousness is likened to filthy rags, so even if we cannot, with our own finite and limited "vision", see all of the utter filthiness, God can.

Exactly, here's more from the Heidelberg Catechism:

59. Q.
But what does it help you
now that you believe all this?
A.
In Christ I am righteous before God
and heir to life everlasting. 1

1. Hab 2:4; Jn 3:36; Rom 1:17; 5:1, 2.

60. Q.
How are you righteous before God?
A.
Only by true faith in Jesus Christ. 1
Although my conscience accuses me
that I have grievously sinned
against all God's commandments,
have never kept any of them, 2
and am still inclined to all evil, 3
yet God, without any merit of my own, 4
out of mere grace, 5
imputes to me
the perfect satisfaction,
righteousness, and holiness of Christ. 6
He grants these to me
as if I had never had nor committed
any sin,
and as if I myself had accomplished
all the obedience
which Christ has rendered for me, 7
if only I accept this gift
with a believing heart. 8

1. Rom 3:21-28; Gal 2:16; Eph 2:8, 9; Phil 3:8-11.
2. Rom 3:9, 10.
3. Rom 7:23.
4. Deut 9:6; Ezek 36:22; Tit 3:4, 5.
5. Rom 3:24; Eph 2:8.
6. Rom 4:3-5; 2 Cor 5:17-19; 1 Jn 2:1, 2.
7. Rom 4:24, 25; 2 Cor 5:21.
8. Jn 3:18; Acts 16:30, 31; Rom 3:22.

brinny · Jun 7, 2017

ladodgers6 said:
Exactly, here's more from the Heidelberg Catechism:

59. Q.
But what does it help you
now that you believe all this?
A.
In Christ I am righteous before God
and heir to life everlasting. 1

1. Hab 2:4; Jn 3:36; Rom 1:17; 5:1, 2.

60. Q.
How are you righteous before God?
A.
Only by true faith in Jesus Christ. 1
Although my conscience accuses me
that I have grievously sinned
against all God's commandments,
have never kept any of them, 2
and am still inclined to all evil, 3
yet God, without any merit of my own, 4
out of mere grace, 5
imputes to me
the perfect satisfaction,
righteousness, and holiness of Christ. 6
He grants these to me
as if I had never had nor committed
any sin,
and as if I myself had accomplished
all the obedience
which Christ has rendered for me, 7
if only I accept this gift
with a believing heart. 8

1. Rom 3:21-28; Gal 2:16; Eph 2:8, 9; Phil 3:8-11.

2. Rom 3:9, 10.

3. Rom 7:23.

4. Deut 9:6; Ezek 36:22; Tit 3:4, 5.

5. Rom 3:24; Eph 2:8.

6. Rom 4:3-5; 2 Cor 5:17-19; 1 Jn 2:1, 2.

7. Rom 4:24, 25; 2 Cor 5:21.

8. Jn 3:18; Acts 16:30, 31; Rom 3:22.

Pardon my chasm-like ignorance regarding Catechism's.......i've never really known what they are, except that they seem to be a part of Catholicism......however, this is right on point and quite profound.

Thank you.

Episaw · Jun 7, 2017

tstor said:
Believe on the Lord, ~~and get baptized.~~

Acts 2:38 Then Peter said unto them, Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the remission of sins, and ye shall receive the gift of the Holy Ghost.

PeaceJoyLove · Jun 7, 2017

ladodgers6 said:
Exactly, here's more from the Heidelberg Catechism:

59. Q.
But what does it help you
now that you believe all this?
A.
In Christ I am righteous before God
and heir to life everlasting. 1

1. Hab 2:4; Jn 3:36; Rom 1:17; 5:1, 2.

60. Q.
How are you righteous before God?
A.
Only by true faith in Jesus Christ. 1
Although my conscience accuses me
that I have grievously sinned
against all God's commandments,
have never kept any of them, 2
and am still inclined to all evil, 3
yet God, without any merit of my own, 4
out of mere grace, 5
imputes to me
the perfect satisfaction,
righteousness, and holiness of Christ. 6
He grants these to me
as if I had never had nor committed
any sin,
and as if I myself had accomplished
all the obedience
which Christ has rendered for me, 7
if only I accept this gift
with a believing heart. 8

1. Rom 3:21-28; Gal 2:16; Eph 2:8, 9; Phil 3:8-11.

2. Rom 3:9, 10.

3. Rom 7:23.

4. Deut 9:6; Ezek 36:22; Tit 3:4, 5.

5. Rom 3:24; Eph 2:8.

6. Rom 4:3-5; 2 Cor 5:17-19; 1 Jn 2:1, 2.

7. Rom 4:24, 25; 2 Cor 5:21.

8. Jn 3:18; Acts 16:30, 31; Rom 3:22.

"He grants these to me
as if I had never had nor committed
any sin,
and as if I myself had accomplished
all the obedience
which Christ has rendered for me, 7
if only I accept this gift
with a believing heart"

John 14:15 “If you love me, you will keep my commandments.

Luke 6:46 “Why do you call me ‘Lord, Lord,’ and not do what I tell you?

1 John 3:24 Whoever keeps his commandments abides in God, and God in him. And by this we know that he abides in us, by the Spirit whom he has given us.

Hebrews 5:9 And being made perfect, he became the source of eternal salvation to all who obey him,

John 4:4 “Little children, you are from God and have overcome them, for he who is in you is greater than he who is in the world.”

He promises to forgive our sin, then provide the power (through genuine faith) to cause us to walk as HE walked. That is the Gospel of Jesus Christ...

1 Corinthians 1:18 For the preaching of the cross is to them that perish foolishness; but unto us which are saved it is the power of God.

2 Corinthians 12:9 But he said to me, “My grace is sufficient for you, for my power is made perfect in weakness.” Therefore I will boast all the more gladly of my weaknesses, so that the power of Christ may rest upon me.

He gives the grace/power to overcome our weakness...grace is not a covering, but a means to overcome sin when we truly walk in faith. Sin=death...

Romans 6:14 For sin will have no dominion over you, since you are not under law but under grace.

If we believe what Jesus tells us in scripture, we receive grace/power from HIS spirit within so sin will NOT reign...

We are required to keep the commandments and not sin...according to the Gospel of Jesus in The Holy Bible. Anything else is a different gospel.

Salvation?

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