Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

FreeGrace2 · Jul 8, 2016

Freedom Now said:
Then I will ask straight out, did Christ come to set us free from sin?

I'm kinda getting tired of your dodging my question. Are you going to answer it or not? Just say so.

After answering my question, I'll be happy to answer all yours. And if you do choose to answer my question, please remember to re-ask your questions, as I probably won't remember any of them.

As far as your question to my walk whether or not I.......?

I wasn't asking about your walk. The question is clear, simple and direct.

Do you believe that you no longer sin? It's either yes or no.

This is not about me, but about God's Truth !!!!!

My question IS about whether you believe that you no longer sin. Please answer.

but since the likes of you will hound one and want make it personal, it will put that part to rest,
by saying, yes, I do keep His commandments.

Still dodging, I see. Which, sadly, I expected.

So, because of your dodge, I must ask another question: do you keep them perfectly?

Are you keeping His commandments? So if you could please answer that and get that out of the way,

I'm still waiting for answers that I asked first.

FreeGrace2 · Jul 18, 2016

It's been 10 days since I re-asked a simple question, and still no response. Which is ok per forum rules, but I wonder why so often those I ask questions of just don't answer.

Freedom Now · Jul 18, 2016

If this is addressed to me, I will give you answers...

Do I live in sin?........ No
Do I keep His commandments? ......Yes
Do I keep HIS commandments perfectly?.......not sure what you mean by that....
either you keep the commandments or you don't. ..

Now I will ask you ....

Do you sin ?
Do you keep His commandments?

Did Christ only come to set us free from the penalty of sin, or did He also come to free us from
sin itself?

FreeGrace2 · Jul 19, 2016

Freedom Now said:
If this is addressed to me, I will give you answers...

Do I live in sin?........ No

My question was whether you sinned. That is a simple "yes" or "no" answer.

Do I keep His commandments? ......Yes
Do I keep HIS commandments perfectly?.......not sure what you mean by that....

More equivocation. The word "perfectly" means just that; every command kept ALL the time.

either you keep the commandments or you don't. ..

Then either you do or you do not keep them perfectly.

But regardless of your answer, the Bible tells us this:
"Therefore no one will be declared righteous in his sight by observing the law; rather, through the law we become conscious of sin." Rom 3:20

So, we know from Scripture that NO MAN keeps the commandments perfectly.

Now I will ask you ....

Do you sin ?

Of course I do. I'm human, just like everyone else. And the Bible says that "all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God. Rom 3:23

Do you keep His commandments?

Unless I have sinned, which is disobedient to one of His commands.

Did Christ only come to set us free from the penalty of sin, or did He also come to free us from sin itself?

Both. And that will occur when believers are glorified. Not before.

The Bible teaches that those who claim to be without sin (sinless perfection) are liars and do not have the truth in them.

1 Jn 1:8 - If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us.

Which is why John followed that up with v.9 and that we are cleansed by confession of our sins.

ToBeLoved · Aug 10, 2016

ZacharyB said:
For example ...
Not everyone who thinks they are known by Jesus ... are known by Jesus!
Matthew 7:
21 “Not everyone who says to Me, ‘Lord, Lord,’ shall enter the kingdom of heaven,
but he who does the will of My Father in heaven.
22 Many will say to Me in that day, ‘Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in Your name, cast out demons in Your name, and done many wonders in Your name?’
23 And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me,
you who practice lawlessness!’
There is quite a nice long list in the NT about what is involved in doing God's will.
W. E. Vine says this "knew" means "approved of".
Jesus actually "knows" (has a relationship with) those He approves of,
which is NOT every born-again believer.

You do not think that on Judgement Day when each person is looking at Christ in His full glory is not going to try to say "Lord, Lord ..."?

Of course people are going to try to make their case.

Also, are the people who he says that 'do the will of My Father in heaven' doing it of their own accord? Or has it always been God within them doing it? You seem to be equating GOD'S WORK within us as our works. So then, is it you or is it God?

Ben johnson · Jun 4, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
Though the debate between OSAS and LOS continues,

There is no debate. A truly saved person, can become unsaved.

There are three views of OSAS:

1. Antinomianism (actively fornicating, adulterating, robbing, stealing, drunk, carousing, any kind of wickedness) -- because salvation is a saved SPIRIT while the flesh can be corrupt!

2. Eternal Security -- anyone can be saved, but once "in" either a person is too changed TO fall, or God dynamically KEEPS him/her

3. Sovereign Predestined Salvation (Reformed, Calvinism) -- God decided before Creation who would be created to live, and whom He sculpted TO BE WICKED and perish; the Cross is not effective but only demonstrative, because it was all decided by God long ago

All three are wrong, and only repeat what Eve was told in the Garden:

"Don't worry, you won't really die."

the Bible is clear about which kind of security the believer has in Christ. And it isn't both kinds.

All references are from the NASB:

First, Paul described both justification (Rom 3:24, 5:15,16,17) and eternal life (Rom 6:23) as gifts of God.

Any gift can be thrown away.

Then he wrote Rom 11:29 - the gifts and calling of God are irrevocable. Since he had already described what he meant by "gifts of God", there was no reason for him to specifically list what he meant by "gifts of God".

Please see 2Tim2:11-13 --- two positions are presented IF we DIED (and stay died!) to sin, we shall live with Jesus; if we endure, we shall reign with Him."

There very much is an implied "BUT" -- if we deny Jesus HE WILL DENY US (see Matt10:33), if we are FAITHLESS (and perish!), He remains faithful!

Goodness -- the entire Scripture warns over and over against "falling-from-salvation". Please read Hebrews, especially:
2:1-3
3:12-14
4:1
4:11
5:11-6:6
6:7-8
6:12-13
10:26-29
10:35
12:7-9 (a born-again person can CEASE being born-again!)
12:15
12:25!

And these are only the tip of the iceberg!

3:24 - being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus
6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
11:29 - for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable.

From GOD'S side, YES; but fully revocable from our side! What about the entire letter of Galatians -- 4:9 "having known God and BEEN KNOWN BY Him, you are now turning BACK to weak worthless things to be enslaved all over again?" 5:7 "you were running well, you WERE OBEYING the truth" -- now 5:4 "you are SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE!"

In what Universe is that not harshly warning against "falling-from-salvation"?
(Have you read Heb3:12-14 yet? Heb4:11? Heb12:7-9 and 25?)

Second

Click to expand...

, every believer is sealed with the Holy Spirit when they believe (Eph 1:13). This sealing is a pledge with a view to the redemption of God's own possession (believers - Eph 1:14).

Seals can be broken.

And, this sealing is for the day of redemption (Eph 4:30).

Unto (conditional promise), not until (guarantee). Please do a search on "HOLD FAST" -- see Rev3;5, 12, 21, and "hold fast so that no one will steal your crown" in verse 11! Is there a second meaning?

1:13 - In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation—having also believed, you were sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise
1:14 - who is given as a pledge of our inheritance, with a view to the redemption of God’s own possession, to the praise of His glory.
4:30 - Do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, by whom you were sealed for the day of redemption.

If we grieve the Spirit, or insult Him (Heb10:29), or quench Him (1Thess5:19)? Do we stay saved? (No.)

Third

Click to expand...

, Jesus tells us WHEN one HAS eternal life; when they believe (Jn 5:24). Then, He tells us that those to whom He gives eternal life WILL NEVER PERISH (Jn 10:28).

Please connect 1Jn5:11-13 ("he who has Jesus has eternal life"), with 2Jn1:7-9 ("if we go too far and DO NOT ABIDE in Jesus' teachings, we no longer have God or Jesus"!)

5:24 - “Truly, truly, I say to you, he who hears My word, and believes Him who sent Me, has eternal life, and does not come into judgment, but has passed out of death into life.
10:28 - and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.

"Snatch" --- harpazo, sieze or remove FORCIBLY. In no sense does it mean "you cannot leave volitionally".

2Cor11:3 says we are at the same danger of deception-away-from-Jesus, as Eve experienced in the Garden. Exactly how can that mean anything other than "you-can-become-unsaved"?

Fourth

Click to expand...

, Paul stated that regardless of the believer's lifestyle,

Seriously? Antinomianism? You have exceptions for Gal5:19-21? Eph5:5-6? 1Cor6:9-11? How about all of 1Jn3?

How does "SHALL NOT INHERIT", get stamped with "not-really"?

or "whether we are asleep or awake, we will be together with Him" in 1 Thess 5:10. The context begins in v.4 and contrasts believers with unbelievers, or day with night, or being alert with being asleep or sober with drunkeness.

4 But you, brethren, are not in darkness, that the day would overtake you like a thief;
5 for you are all sons of light and sons of day. We are not of night nor of darkness;
6 so then let us not sleep as others do, but let us be alert and sober.
7 For those who sleep do their sleeping at night, and those who get drunk get drunk at night.
8 But since we are of the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet, the hope of salvation.
9 For God has not destined us for wrath, but for obtaining salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ,
10 who died for us, so that whether we are awake or asleep, we will live together with Him.

Analysis of this passage:
v.4 tells us that believers are "not in darkness"
v.5 differentiates believers (sons of light and day) with unbelievers (not of night or darkness).
v.6 encourages believers to not live like unbelievers (not sleep as others do, but be alert and sober).
v.7 describes unbelievers and what they do.
v.8 explains that "since we are of the day" (believers), we need to be sober.
v.9 explains the destiny of the believer - not destined for wrath but for salvation
v.10 says that regardless of the believer's lifestyle, we will live together with Him.

Nonsense; behind this whole issue, is the question -- "WHAT IS SALVATION?"

Salvation is a union between two real people. Creator (Jesus!), and creature (you and me!). Jesus and the Spirit truly indwell a believer. 1Jn3:5 says "in Him there is no sin" -- if we walk in sin, will Jesus and the Spirit participate in our sin? Absolutely not!

Sin deceives us, to real spiritual death; us -- THE SAVED. So says Heb3:12-13, James1:12-14, 2Pet3:17 (don't miss 2Pet1:5-11, and 3:14) --- and many others.

Please read Eph4:17-24 --- if we walk as the heathens do, excluded from the life of God, if we do NOT lay aside our corrupt flesh and do NOT put on the new godly man, are we still saved? Absolutely not!

Fifth

Click to expand...

, Jesus noted how people are saved in John 10:9 - “I am the door; if anyone enters through Me, he will be saved, and will go in and out and find pasture.

What if someone LEAVES? See Jn6:67-70, where Peter protests his loyalty. Paraphrased, "OF course we won't leave You, we know You're the Messiah."

To which, Jesus holds up Judas as proof that leaving is possible! It's the same as what happened in Luke22 -- Peter: "I will go to jail and even DIE for You!"

Jesus: "You'll deny Me three times TONIGHT!"

The Greek word for “enters” is in the aorist tense, meaning “in a point in time”, as opposed to the present tense, which those who believe in loss of salvation only emphasize. Iow, one must continue to believe in order to continue to have eternal life. Further, Paul used the aorist tense in his answer to the jailer in Acts 16:31, and Jesus used the aorist tense in Luke 8:12 “believed and be saved”.

Why don't you look at Jn3:16, 1Jn5:1, Rom1:16, and give your opinion as to why "believing" is rendered in present active participle?

He who IS BELIEVING -- but what about tomorrow? Hence -- Jude20-21, "BUILD YOURSELVES in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in God's love"!

What if we don't?

Sixth

Click to expand...

, there are absolutely zero verses that warn us plainly that one can lose their salvation.

In the book I wrote, I list ONE HUNDRED AND ONE verses that oppose OSAS. I've just given you a bunch!

You can dismiss them and pretend they don't say what they say, or you can acknowledge them. No insult intended; you face a choice.

Therefore, those who believe in LOS need to address each of these 6 points and explain how the verses do not teach eternal security, if they don't.

Think I did! Ben der, dun dat!

The Bible says: All Scripture is inspired by God and profitable for teaching, for reproof, for correction, for training in righteousness;

So, if these verses aren't profitable for teaching, then what are they profitable for?

And, if they ARE profitable for teaching, then what are they teaching, if not OSAS?

What was happening the last two verses in James? If any of YOU (saved!) wander away from the faith, and if another leads him back, his soul is saved (again!) and his sins covered (forgiven again!). How do you perceive that?

Albion · Jun 4, 2017

Those who have been saved by Faith can wander, but it's where they are at death that matters, so if they are brought back to saving Faith after some falling away, that's entirely compatible with the idea of Eternal Security.

ToBeLoved · Jun 4, 2017

Ben johnson said:
"Don't worry, you won't really die."

Any gift can be thrown away.

Please see 2Tim2:11-13 --- two positions are presented IF we DIED (and stay died!) to sin, we shall live with Jesus; if we endure, we shall reign with Him."

There very much is an implied "BUT" -- if we deny Jesus HE WILL DENY US (see Matt10:33), if we are FAITHLESS (and perish!), He remains faithful!

Goodness -- the entire Scripture warns over and over against "falling-from-salvation". Please read Hebrews, especially:
2:1-3
3:12-14
4:1
4:11
5:11-6:6
6:7-8
6:12-13
10:26-29
10:35
12:7-9 (a born-again person can CEASE being born-again!)
12:15
12:25!

And these are only the tip of the iceberg!

From GOD'S side, YES; but fully revocable from our side! What about the entire letter of Galatians -- 4:9 "having known God and BEEN KNOWN BY Him, you are now turning BACK to weak worthless things to be enslaved all over again?" 5:7 "you were running well, you WERE OBEYING the truth" -- now 5:4 "you are SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE!"

In what Universe is that not harshly warning against "falling-from-salvation"?
(Have you read Heb3:12-14 yet? Heb4:11? Heb12:7-9 and 25?)

Seals can be broken.

Unto (conditional promise), not until (guarantee). Please do a search on "HOLD FAST" -- see Rev3;5, 12, 21, and "hold fast so that no one will steal your crown" in verse 11! Is there a second meaning?

If we grieve the Spirit, or insult Him (Heb10:29), or quench Him (1Thess5:19)? Do we stay saved? (No.)

Please connect 1Jn5:11-13 ("he who has Jesus has eternal life"), with 2Jn1:7-9 ("if we go too far and DO NOT ABIDE in Jesus' teachings, we no longer have God or Jesus"!)

"Snatch" --- harpazo, sieze or remove FORCIBLY. In no sense does it mean "you cannot leave volitionally".

2Cor11:3 says we are at the same danger of deception-away-from-Jesus, as Eve experienced in the Garden. Exactly how can that mean anything other than "you-can-become-unsaved"?

Seriously? Antinomianism? You have exceptions for Gal5:19-21? Eph5:5-6? 1Cor6:9-11? How about all of 1Jn3?

How does "SHALL NOT INHERIT", get stamped with "not-really"?

Nonsense; behind this whole issue, is the question -- "WHAT IS SALVATION?"

Salvation is a union between two real people. Creator (Jesus!), and creature (you and me!). Jesus and the Spirit truly indwell a believe?

I would ask some questions but since people insist on these long posts instead of smaller ones on a phone I can't bother.

You are incorrect on three or four premises and are mixing together al lot of topics here making many of these out of context.

Ben johnson · Jun 4, 2017

Albion said:
Those who have been saved by Faith can wander,

The critical issue, is "what is salvation"? He who has Jesus has eternal life (1Jn5:11-13); but he who goes too far and does not abide in the teachings, no longer has the Father or the Son (2Jn1:7-9).

Salvation at its core is a union between two people; an intimate union that Scripture calls "a marriage". That's what it is; it's not WHAT we know, but WHO we know -- Jn17:3!

but it's where they are at death that matters, so if they are brought back to saving Faith after some falling away, that's entirely compatible with the idea of Eternal Security.

If they are brought back --- Scripture says "He will never leave you nor forsake you" (Heb13:5). But, we can leave Him.

Rom1:16 is properly translated, "The righteousness of God is revealed from BEGINNING faith to ENDING faith; as it is written, the righteous shall live BY faith."

Gal3:3 says "having begun in the Spirit, are you now ending in the flesh?" You're right, Albion -- it is important where we begin, but it's more important where we end.

Thus -- "as you have received Christ SO WALK IN Him, being built up and perfected in faith; SEE that you are not TAKEN CAPTIVE through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ." Col2:6-8

How many warnings like this can we read (there are dozens in Scripture), but just shrug them off ("oh we can NOT REALLY be deceived away from Jesus")?

"I worry, that as the serpent deceived Eve by his craftiness, your minds should also be led astray from the simplicity and purity of devotion to Christ." 2Cor11:3

In what Universe can that just be stamped, "not really"?

Ben johnson · Jun 4, 2017

ToBeLoved said:
I would ask some questions but since people insist on these long posts instead of smaller ones on a phone I can't bother.

Ask one or two questions; I can't promise promptness, but I'll strive to answer --- rather, I'll strive to show how Scripture answers.

You are incorrect on three or four premises and are mixing together al lot of topics here making many of these out of context.

Where am I "making a premise" (or opinion), rather than simply repeating what the Apostles said?

ToBeLoved · Jun 4, 2017

Ben johnson said:
Where am I "making a premise" (or opinion), rather than simply repeating what the Apostles said?

Well for one thing, salvation is much more than a union between two people.

God doesn't call it a union ever.

FreeGrace2 · Jun 4, 2017

Ben johnson said:
There is no debate. A truly saved person, can become unsaved.

Jesus very specifically taught eternal security. He said:
I give them eternal life, and they shall never perish; no one will snatch them out of my hand. Jn 10:28

Note that those Jesus gives eternal life will never perish. No conditions, just receiving the gift of eternal life.

There are three views of OSAS:

1. Antinomianism (actively fornicating, adulterating, robbing, stealing, drunk, carousing, any kind of wickedness) -- because salvation is a saved SPIRIT while the flesh can be corrupt!

2. Eternal Security -- anyone can be saved, but once "in" either a person is too changed TO fall, or God dynamically KEEPS him/her

3. Sovereign Predestined Salvation (Reformed, Calvinism) -- God decided before Creation who would be created to live, and whom He sculpted TO BE WICKED and perish; the Cross is not effective but only demonstrative, because it was all decided by God long ago

All three are wrong, and only repeat what Eve was told in the Garden:

"Don't worry, you won't really die."

What Eve was told had nothing to do with salvation. They died spiritually that day, and physically later on (some 800-900 years).

Jesus' promise is found in #2 above. We are saved by GRACE, and we are kept by that same GRACE. Period.

[/QUOTE]Any gift can be thrown away.[/QUOTE]
Let's not lower the gift of God's own life as a mere object, like a coin that can be thrown away.

There are NO verses that speak of throwing away eternal life, or giving it away, or losing it.

Please see 2Tim2:11-13 --- two positions are presented IF we DIED (and stay died!) to sin, we shall live with Jesus; if we endure, we shall reign with Him."

These verses have nothing to do with losing salvation. It's about reward: to reign with Christ. For those who endure. For those who don't endure, they will be DENIED the privilege of reigning with Christ.

And v.13 teaches eternal security; God cannot deny Himself. God the Holy Spirit indwells every believer, per John 14:16. So, even those who end up not enduring, or "denying Him" will still be saved, because of the indwelling Spirit.

There very much is an implied "BUT" -- if we deny Jesus HE WILL DENY US (see Matt10:33), if we are FAITHLESS (and perish!), He remains faithful!

Because He does remain faithful, and CANNOT deny Himself, every believer is secure in Him.

Goodness -- the entire Scripture warns over and over against "falling-from-salvation".

There are NO verses that warn against "falling from salvation". That is merely an erroneous assumption. The warnings are about falling from the faith, not salvation.

Plus, if one could "fall from salvation", then Jesus' promise in Jn 10:28 is meaningless.

Please read Hebrews, especially:
2:1-3
3:12-14
4:1
4:11
5:11-6:6
6:7-8
6:12-13
10:26-29
10:35
12:7-9 (a born-again person can CEASE being born-again!)
12:15
12:25!

And these are only the tip of the iceberg!

This "iceberg" has sunk! None of these verses (or any other) say anything about falling from salvation.

From GOD'S side, YES; but fully revocable from our side!

Glad that you mentioned this. In fact, Paul described eternal life as a gift of God in Rom 6:23 - For the wages of sin is death, but the gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

Then, he described what the gifts of God are in Rom 11:29 - for God’s gifts and his call are irrevocable.

So it's extremely obvious that eternal life, a gift of God, is irrevocable.

What about the entire letter of Galatians -- 4:9 "having known God and BEEN KNOWN BY Him, you are now turning BACK to weak worthless things to be enslaved all over again?" 5:7 "you were running well, you WERE OBEYING the truth" -- now 5:4 "you are SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE!"

We know one thing, since eternal life is irrevocable, and Jesus promised that those He gives eternal life will never perish, the verse CANNOT be about loss of salvation. Or Jesus and Paul were lying to us.

In what Universe is that not harshly warning against "falling-from-salvation"?

This one. Where Jesus and Paul also lived. And didn't lie.

(Have you read Heb3:12-14 yet? Heb4:11? Heb12:7-9 and 25?)

Yep.

Seals can be broken.

Seems you've a penhant for equating the gifts of God into mere objects. Why?

Eph 1:13 teaches that those having believed (aorist tense) are marked IN HIM with a seal, the promised Holy Spirit. So your comment means you think that Holy Spirit "can be broken". Nonsense. And blasphemous.

v.14 says this seal is a guarantee of our inheritance for the day of redemption.

If that isn't eternal security, what is it?

Unto (conditional promise), not until (guarantee).

See Eph 1:13,14 for the "guarantee".

If we grieve the Spirit, or insult Him (Heb10:29), or quench Him (1Thess5:19)? Do we stay saved? (No.)

What evidence in Scripture is there for this statement? None.

"Snatch" --- harpazo, sieze or remove FORCIBLY. In no sense does it mean "you cannot leave volitionally".

The words "no one" simply means "no person". If you are other than a "person", then even you cannot remove yourself from Jesus' hand.

The idea that anyone can remove themselves from either the hand of Jesus or God Himself is erroneously claiming to be more powerful than Jesus or God.

Which is blasphemous.

Why don't you look at Jn3:16, 1Jn5:1, Rom1:16, and give your opinion as to why "believing" is rendered in present active participle?

Keep studying per 2 Tim 2:15. There are many verses that use the aorist tense for 'believing'. That tense indicates a point in time, or a simple occurrence.

So please stop abusing the present tense.

btw, the present tense does not EVER mean "continuous action for the rest of one's life". It only means current action. Not "on-going action" indefinitely.

He who IS BELIEVING -- but what about tomorrow?

Great question! Paul answers that one in Rom 8:38 - For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers,

So, even nothing in the future (tomorrow) can separate us from the love of Christ.

Hence -- Jude20-21, "BUILD YOURSELVES in holy faith, KEEP YOURSELVES in God's love"!

What if we don't?

Heb 12. God's discipline, which is painful.

In the book I wrote, I list ONE HUNDRED AND ONE verses that oppose OSAS. I've just given you a bunch!

So you're an author. Congratulations. And I have just refuted ALL of your misunderstandings of those verses. And proved from John 10:28, Eph 1:13,14 and Rom 6:23 - 11:29 eternal security.

You can dismiss them and pretend they don't say what they say, or you can acknowledge them. No insult intended; you face a choice.

How about acknowledging the promise of Jesus and the descriptions by Paul of eternal life and God's gifts? Do you take them literally? Or dismiss them and pretend they don't say what they say, and very clearly?

Ron Gurley · Jun 10, 2017

OP: "Eternal (Security) (of the Believer's SPIRITUAL POSITION/SALVATION) versus "conditional security",
or OSAS (ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED) versus LOS (Loss of Salvation)

Back to Basics and Background

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/losing-salvation.8010090/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/you-can-lose-your-salvation-through-apostasy.7785433/

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

Can a Christian Lose His Salvation?

ETERNAL SECURITY of the salvation and SPIRITUAL POSITION of True Christ-followers.

Jesus taught and practiced FORGIVENESS OF SINS to believers...NOT loss of spiritual POSITION
Mark 11: 24-25
See ALSO: Luke 6: 36-38...Jesus: Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Jesus will never "..cast out " a true "sheep" ...believer.
John 6:35-40

Paul taught that: (NOTHING) ..."will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord...." Romans 8:35-39

John 10...Jesus the God-Man / and the Father hold you in their HANDS!...NOTHING can "snatch" you out!

The TRI-UNE God by Grace through Faith has saved the Souls and Spirits of all true believers:
1. shown uttermost LOVE...John 13:1
2. keeps us to Himself.....John 28:30
3. presents us faultless in heaven...Jude 24
4. makes intercession to maintain our saved relationship...Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 2:1
5. places us into the Body of Christ / indwelt by God the Holy Spirit...1 Cor. 12:13
6. seals us until the day of redemption...Ephesians 4:30

No one has ever UN _DONE those salvific WORKS.
God is not an "Indian Giver" !

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel,
for it is the power of God FOR salvation to everyone who BELIEVES, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Once a spirit-led BELIEVER...ALWAYS a spirit-led BELIEVER. God does not take back His Ephesian 2 GIFTS!

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also BELIEVED, you were SEALED in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Once a SEALED BELIEVER...always a SEALED BELIEVER. Once God gives you SPIRITUAL POSITION, He does not change it.

Once a son of God...Always a son of God

Once adopted into the family of God...Always adopted into the family of God

Once a sheep of the Good Shepherd...Always a sheep of the Good Shepherd

Once spiritually changed / "born again from above "...Always spiritually changed / "born again from above "

Once indwelt by God the Holy Spirit...Always indwelt by God the Holy Spirit

Once spiritually baptized into the Body of Christ...Always spiritually baptized into the Body of Christ

Once John 3 / Ephesian 2 saved...ALWAYS John 3 / Ephesian 2 SAVED

Once God performs His Loving works and gifts of salvation...GOD WILL NOT UN-DO THEM!...But He does FORGIVE SIN...NOT punish with the loss of SPIRITUAL POSITION.

2 Timothy 3:15
and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that
leads to salvation THROUGH FAITH which is in Christ Jesus.

Luke 6
47 Everyone who COMES to Me and HEARS My words and ACTS on them,
I will show you whom he is like:
48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on "THE ROCK";
and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it,
because it had been well built.
49 But the one who has heard and has not ACTED accordingly,
is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation;(SINKING SAND!)
and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed,
and the ruin of that house was great.”

Once a BELIEVER is built on "THE ROCK"...ALWAYS will he stay built on "THE ROCK". God is your unchanging support.

Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord,
my rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 78:35
And they remembered that God was their rock,
And the Most High God their Redeemer.+

Libertas · Jun 10, 2017

Ben johnson said:
Goodness -- the entire Scripture warns over and over against "falling-from-salvation". Please read Hebrews, especially:
2:1-3
3:12-14
4:1
4:11
5:11-6:6
6:7-8
6:12-13
10:26-29
10:35
12:7-9 (a born-again person can CEASE being born-again!)
12:15
12:25!

And these are only the tip of the iceberg!

From GOD'S side, YES; but fully revocable from our side! What about the entire letter of Galatians -- 4:9 "having known God and BEEN KNOWN BY Him, you are now turning BACK to weak worthless things to be enslaved all over again?" 5:7 "you were running well, you WERE OBEYING the truth" -- now 5:4 "you are SEVERED from Christ and FALLEN FROM GRACE!"

You're taking these scriptures totally out of context. "Fallen from grace" is from Galatians 5:4 and it's referencing unsaved people who are mixing grace and law.

You can't believe in salvation by faith and also works:

Romans 11:6-7King James Version (KJV)
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Every other passage you listed as a proof text has nothing to do with people losing their salvation.

If eternal security is wrong then none of these passages make any sense: John 10:27-30; I Peter 1:5; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:35-39; John 5:24

Ron Gurley · Jun 10, 2017

The NUMBER of VERSES + WEIGHT of them + IN CONTEXT + ABSOLUTE SPIRITUAL TRUTHS of all Scripture fully support the true doctrine of " Eternal Security" aka "OSAS".

PLEASE: try to rebut my POST#313 above!!!
If one does not, the truth WINS OUT!

ToBeLoved · Jun 10, 2017

Libertas said:
You're taking these scriptures totally out of context. "Fallen from grace" is from Galatians 5:4 and it's referencing unsaved people who are mixing grace and law.

You can't believe in salvation by faith and also works:

Romans 11:6-7King James Version (KJV)
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Every other passage you listed as a proof text has nothing to do with people losing their salvation.

If eternal security is wrong then none of these passages make any sense: John 10:27-30; I Peter 1:5; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:35-39; John 5:24

bling · Jun 12, 2017

Ron Gurley said:
OP: "Eternal (Security) (of the Believer's SPIRITUAL POSITION/SALVATION) versus "conditional security",
or OSAS (ONCE SAVED, ALWAYS SAVED) versus LOS (Loss of Salvation)

Back to Basics and Background

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/losing-salvation.8010090/

https://www.christianforums.com/threads/you-can-lose-your-salvation-through-apostasy.7785433/

Can True born again BELIEVERS lose their spiritual POSITION in Christ?

Can a Christian Lose His Salvation?

ETERNAL SECURITY of the salvation and SPIRITUAL POSITION of True Christ-followers.

Jesus taught and practiced FORGIVENESS OF SINS to believers...NOT loss of spiritual POSITION
Mark 11: 24-25
See ALSO: Luke 6: 36-38...Jesus: Forgive, and you will be forgiven.

Jesus will never "..cast out " a true "sheep" ...believer.
John 6:35-40

Paul taught that: (NOTHING) ..."will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord...." Romans 8:35-39

John 10...Jesus the God-Man / and the Father hold you in their HANDS!...NOTHING can "snatch" you out!

The TRI-UNE God by Grace through Faith has saved the Souls and Spirits of all true believers:
1. shown uttermost LOVE...John 13:1
2. keeps us to Himself.....John 28:30
3. presents us faultless in heaven...Jude 24
4. makes intercession to maintain our saved relationship...Hebrews 7:25; 1 John 2:1
5. places us into the Body of Christ / indwelt by God the Holy Spirit...1 Cor. 12:13
6. seals us until the day of redemption...Ephesians 4:30

No one has ever UN _DONE those salvific WORKS.
God is not an "Indian Giver" !

Romans 1:16
For I am not ashamed of the gospel,
for it is the power of God FOR salvation to everyone who BELIEVES, to the Jew first and also to the Greek.

Once a spirit-led BELIEVER...ALWAYS a spirit-led BELIEVER. God does not take back His Ephesian 2 GIFTS!

Ephesians 1:13
In Him, you also, after listening to the message of truth, the gospel of your salvation — having also BELIEVED, you were SEALED in Him with the Holy Spirit of promise,

Once a SEALED BELIEVER...always a SEALED BELIEVER. Once God gives you SPIRITUAL POSITION, He does not change it.

Once a son of God...Always a son of God

Once adopted into the family of God...Always adopted into the family of God

Once a sheep of the Good Shepherd...Always a sheep of the Good Shepherd

Once spiritually changed / "born again from above "...Always spiritually changed / "born again from above "

Once indwelt by God the Holy Spirit...Always indwelt by God the Holy Spirit

Once spiritually baptized into the Body of Christ...Always spiritually baptized into the Body of Christ

Once John 3 / Ephesian 2 saved...ALWAYS John 3 / Ephesian 2 SAVED

Once God performs His Loving works and gifts of salvation...GOD WILL NOT UN-DO THEM!...But He does FORGIVE SIN...NOT punish with the loss of SPIRITUAL POSITION.

2 Timothy 3:15
and that from childhood you have known the sacred writings which are able to give you the wisdom that
leads to salvation THROUGH FAITH which is in Christ Jesus.

Luke 6
47 Everyone who COMES to Me and HEARS My words and ACTS on them,
I will show you whom he is like:
48 he is like a man building a house, who dug deep and laid a foundation on "THE ROCK";
and when a flood occurred, the torrent burst against that house and could not shake it,
because it had been well built.
49 But the one who has heard and has not ACTED accordingly,
is like a man who built a house on the ground without any foundation;(SINKING SAND!)
and the torrent burst against it and immediately it collapsed,
and the ruin of that house was great.”

Once a BELIEVER is built on "THE ROCK"...ALWAYS will he stay built on "THE ROCK". God is your unchanging support.

Psalm 19:14
Let the words of my mouth and the meditation of my heart Be acceptable in Your sight, O Lord,
my rock and my Redeemer.

Psalm 78:35
And they remembered that God was their rock,
And the Most High God their Redeemer.+

Since you asked:

Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).

Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.

The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau own the “gift” of the first born inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.

The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.

We own a paid up tax free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.
I can go through each of your verses one by one showing the context and alternative interpretations but that takes lots of words and a very long post which in the past you have not wanted to weigh through, so I will give you some verses that show how the Christian can give up (this is not saying God is taking it back) eternal life:

John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit".

John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

James 1:14-15 "But each one is tempted when he is lured away and enticed by his own desires. Then when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death".

James 5:19-20 "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his ways, will have saved a soul from death".

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live".

1 John 2:4-6 "The one who says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked".

1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Holy Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons".

Deuteronomy 8:11 "Take care that you do not forget the Lord your God, by failing to keep his commandments, his ordinances, and his statutes, which I am commanding you today".

John 6:66-68 "As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. Jesus said therefore to the twelve, You do not want to go away also, do you? Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? It is You who has the words of eternal life".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."

John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

bling · Jun 12, 2017

Libertas said:
You're taking these scriptures totally out of context. "Fallen from grace" is from Galatians 5:4 and it's referencing unsaved people who are mixing grace and law.

You can't believe in salvation by faith and also works:

Romans 11:6-7King James Version (KJV)
6 And if by grace, then is it no more of works: otherwise grace is no more grace. But if it be of works, then it is no more grace: otherwise work is no more work.

7 What then? Israel hath not obtained that which he seeketh for; but the election hath obtained it, and the rest were blinded.

Every other passage you listed as a proof text has nothing to do with people losing their salvation.

If eternal security is wrong then none of these passages make any sense: John 10:27-30; I Peter 1:5; Ephesians 4:30; Romans 8:35-39; John 5:24

Since you asked:

Gal. 6: 8 Whoever sows to please their flesh, from the flesh will reap destruction; whoever sows to please the Spirit, from the Spirit will reap eternal life. 9 Let us not become weary in doing good, for at the proper time we will reap a harvest if we do not give up. 10 Therefore, as we have opportunity, let us do good to all people, especially to those who belong to the family of believers.

Paul explains plainly that eternal life is the harvest in the future we do not want to “give up”, but that also teaches we can give it up.

Our doing good stuff while here on earth (or better: our allowing God to work through us doing good stuff) is not to “earn”, “payback” or to allow us to “hold on to our salvation”. We want to continue to utilize Godly type Love and not get caught up in carnal type love so the huge Love Feast of Heaven (unselfish type Love only) still has value to us and not something we would sell on the cheap.

As far as being saved by faith only without “works”, that is true, but just like the Prodigal son wimped out of taking the punishment he fully deserved and humbly returned to the Father, we must wimp out, give up surrender to our enemy God and that will allow God to shower us with His charity.

Eternal Life in heaven is spoken of as our inheritance and not something we actually have at the moment. All other Gifts of God we have right away, but heaven is truly ours as a birthright (our inheritance).

Part of the meaning to the concept of being given a gift is the fact that the ownership of the gift actually transfers to the receiver of the gift and as such the receiver of the gift can do what he/she wants to do with the gift.

The Hebrew writer in Heb. 12:16 See that no one is sexually immoral, or is godless like Esau, who for a single meal sold his inheritance rights as the oldest son.

Esau own the “gift” of the first born inheritance rights, which could not be taken from him by anyone, nor could someone steal it from his hand, not even his father could take them back, but Esau could sell it or give it away.

The Hebrew writer is telling us not to give away or sell our birth right (as born again Christians) which is our inheritance of eternal life.

We own a paid up tax free deed to a home in heaven, so that home was gifted to us, but the Hebrew writer is saying we could sell (or give it away) like Esau did.
I can go through each of your verses one by one showing the context and alternative interpretations but that takes lots of words and a very long post which in the past you have not wanted to weigh through, so I will give you some verses that show how the Christian can give up (this is not saying God is taking it back) eternal life:

John 15:1-2 "I am the true vine, and my Father is the gardener. He removes every branch in me that bears no fruit. Every branch that bears fruit he prunes to make it bear more fruit".

John 15:6 "If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

1 Corinthians 10:12 "Therefore let him who thinks he is standing, beware, that he does not fall".

2 Chronicles 15:2 "If you search for him, he will let himself be found by you; but if you leave him, he will leave you".

James 1:14-15 "But each one is tempted when he is lured away and enticed by his own desires. Then when that desire has conceived, it gives birth to sin; and when sin is accomplished, it brings forth death".

James 5:19-20 "Brethren, if anyone among you wanders from the truth, and someone turns him back, let him know that he who turns a sinner from the error of his ways, will have saved a soul from death".

Hebrews 3:12-14 "Beware, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief in departing from the living God; but exhort one another daily, while it is called today, lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin. For we have become partakers of Christ if we hold the beginning of our confidence steadfast to the end."

1 Timothy 1:19 "Keeping faith and a good conscience, which some have rejected and their faith has been shipwrecked".

Hebrews 2:1 "Therefore we must pay greater attention to what we have heard, lest we drift away".

Romans 8:13 "For if you are living according to the flesh, you must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live".

1 John 2:4-6 "The one who says, I have come to know Him, and does not keep His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him; but whoever keeps His word, in him the love of God has truly been perfected. By this we know that we are in Him: the one who says he abides in Him ought himself to walk in the same manner as He walked".

1 Timothy 4:1 "But the Holy Spirit explicitly says that in later times some will fall away from the faith, paying attention to deceitful spirits and doctrines of demons".

Deuteronomy 8:11 "Take care that you do not forget the Lord your God, by failing to keep his commandments, his ordinances, and his statutes, which I am commanding you today".

John 6:66-68 "As a result of this many of His disciples withdrew, and were not walking with Him anymore. Jesus said therefore to the twelve, You do not want to go away also, do you? Simon Peter answered Him, Lord, to whom shall we go? It is You who has the words of eternal life".

2 Timothy 2:12 "If we endure, we shall also reign with Him; If we deny Him, He also will deny us".

2 Peter 2:20-21 "They were made free from the evil in the world by knowing our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ. But if they return to evil things and those things control them, then it is worse for them than it was before. Yes, it would be better for them to have never known the right way than to know it and to turn away from the holy teaching that was given to them."

Matthew 10:22 "And you will be hated by all for My name's sake. But he who endures to the end will be saved.

Matthew 24:13 "But he who endures to the end shall be saved.

Matthew 7:21 "Not everyone who says to Me, Lord, Lord, shall enter the kingdom of heaven, but he who does the will of My Father."

John 15:4-6 "Abide in Me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, unless it abides in the vine, so neither can you, unless you abide in Me. I am the vine, you are the branches; he who abides in Me, and I in him, he bears much fruit; for apart from Me you can do nothing. If anyone does not abide in Me, he is thrown away as a branch, and dries up; and they gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned".

Ron Gurley · Jun 12, 2017

All of bling's out of context snippets apply to:
1. believer's WORKS to be JUDGED after the SALVATION EVENT
2. believer's SANCTIFICATION PROCESS
3. believer's SINS after SALVATION, AND their less than perfect PRACTICE
4. NONE clearly indicate LOSS of SPIRITUAL of POSITION.

Marvin Knox · Jun 12, 2017

Thursday said:
There are dozens of scripture passages which make it clear that our salvation is conditional and can be lost.

We must endure to be saved.

Not so.

There are scriptures which say that if you endure you will be saved. But I see none which say that you must endure to be saved.

The two are not the same.

I could, I suppose, be wrong. If you would provide those scriptures I will change my mind on the matter.

Thanks!

Marvin Knox · Jun 12, 2017

FreeGrace2 said:
Now, if predestination did mean that God chooses who will believe, then there WOULD be a huge conflict between predestination and free will. Can't be both, as you've just noted.

Predestination does not mean that God chooses who will believe - (at least in Reformed theology).

Election mean that God chooses who will believe.

I'm not going to argue whether either doctrine is believed correctly by any particular group and provable from scripture.

But we really should get things right and not misrepresent.

It isn't just you of course.

I have a thread concerning predestination and people there made the same mistake as you did.

Eternal vs conditional security, or OSAS vs LOS

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Active Member

Senior Veteran

Well-Known Member

Legend

Facilitator

Well-Known Member

Legend

Legend

Well-Known Member

Senior Veteran

What U See is What U Get!

Active Member

What U See is What U Get!

Well-Known Member

Regular Member

Regular Member

What U See is What U Get!

Senior Veteran

Senior Veteran

Similar threads