Videos That Argue for God's Existence without assuming the Bible is true

I trust the Holy Spirit to use my words to pierce hearts.

God cannot operate with the wisdom of man, so apologetics does little in the way of actually converting a soul.

I have doubts about "the moral argument" because God did or commanded plenty of morally questionable things in the Bible that we say now are immoral, or say God says is immoral.

Uber Genius said:

I recommend memorizing the arguments and putting them into your own words so you can pop them into conversations or portions of them without seeming "preachy."

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nice! Thanks for sharing that.

CrystalDragon said:

I have doubts about "the moral argument" because God did or commanded plenty of morally questionable things in the Bible that we say now are immoral, or say God says is immoral.

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So are you saying that God changed His mind somewhere between the OT and NT?

CrystalDragon said:

I have doubts about "the moral argument" because God did or commanded plenty of morally questionable things in the Bible that we say now are immoral, or say God says is immoral.

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This to me is scary thinking. To say that God does things that is a question upon basic morality is just wrong. God is good; And His judgments are always good and perfect and they can be explained. Anything in the Bible that you think is questionably moral in regards to God in the Bible can easily be explained looking at the whole of Scripture and by looking at real world examples.

I would not be a believer in Christ (God) if I could not trust in God's goodness.
For the Lord has transformed my life for the better and not for the worse.

Side Note:

Oh, and if you think ECT (Eternal Conscious Torment) is a proof that God does things that we would consider immoral: Well, the Bible does not teach ECT. The word "forever" (and it's related words) does not always mean forever in the Bible. “Forever” can be talking about "forever" here on this Earth (as long as someone lives) or in having a sense of "completeness" or "totality" for a specific thing). For what do you make of the following verses below that say that "forever" (or it's related words) is not forever?


Here is the source for list above for the Scriptural examples used on the word "forever":
http://www.apttoteach.org/attjom/index.php


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ByTheSpirit said:

I trust the Holy Spirit to use my words to pierce hearts.

God cannot operate with the wisdom of man, so apologetics does little in the way of actually converting a soul.

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Have you ever seen the movie called "The Case for Christ"? You should watch it sometime.


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Uber Genius said:

While I share your view of God's moral goodness, I would prefer To avoid discussing the morality of God's actions qua the giant clans in the promise land. I would like to keep the discussion outside of scripture and focused on engaging the nonbeliever in the moral argument in the video.

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Faith comes by hearing and hearing the Word of God.
Nobody comes to the faith without hearing God's Word to some capacity.
It's what being "born again of water" means. To be born by the incorruptible Word of God.
To receive the seed of the Word into our hearts (By belief in the gospel).

This is why to me the evidences and the Bible go together (and you cannot separate them).
They go together like peaches and cream, peanut butter and jelly, barbeque sauce and ribs, etc.

The best evidences for God is the Bible. If you also like evidences for the Word of God, you should check out my Blogger Article here:

Love Branch: February 2017

I provide a lot of evidences that make it obvious that God's Word is true.


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For you cannot have a discussion about God without bringing up the Bible.
For we have our faith because of the Bible.
To eliminate the Bible is to cripple your argument.

Also, to just assume there is a God does not mean one is on the right path, either.
There are many people who believe in a God but they do not believe in the God of the Bible.


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While the videos bring up great points for an atheist, what will ultimately convince them is God and not a logical argument. A person can discover the truth, by seeking out evidences like a Lee Strobel, but I believe God set him on that path and God had opened His eyes (by prayer, as well). It was not the pure logic that led Him to the Lord. It was the drawing of the Father that he responded to of his own free will to seek out the truth. He was also assuming the Bible is true and accurate in regards to the resurrection of Jesus Christ, as well (Which led him to the Lord). Lee still ultimately needed to take that step of faith and believe.


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Many Christians (including myself) did not need evidence to accept Jesus as their Savior. Oh, and yes. I used to be an atheist at one time. Looking back I could see how it was God working in my life so as to prepare my heart to accept Him. I believe God used my love for various Christian women to lead me to the Lord. There was something different about them that other women did not have. They had qualities that were more admirable that I was looking for. God softened my heart within my search for true love and when I received a tract called "This Was Your Life", I repented of my sins and accepted Jesus as my Savior.


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Again, this is not to say that the videos you provide are not good. They are great! But we should never exclude the Bible in our argument, though. We preach Jesus and His death and resurrection from the Holy Scriptures. It's a package deal. His love has melted the hearts of the most hardened criminals.


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Uber Genius said:

Congratulations... We are in radical agreement.

But most, even most Chrisians if you read some of the Barna or Pew polls don't think the Bible is a reliable source of truth.

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I used to like Barna group. That is until I discovered a recent article they had written was totally unbiblical. They made points about Jesus that were totally not true. You can check out the article for yourself at the following link (if you are interested).

https://www.barna.com/research/christians-more-like-jesus-or-pharisees/

You said:

Why argue a position where your audience rejects your baseline premises???

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You don't. Jesus said to shake the dust off your feet if they do not receive the gospel. All we can do is preach the gospel to them. That is how they are ultimately going to be saved. Not by evidences. Yes, if somebody is honestly looking for evidence to give them that extra push in helping them accept the Lord then that is different. But most atheists are not going to be convinced by any evidence we provide. They are looking to see what they want to see. Also, if you leave out the Bible, then you are leaving out your faith and the point of how to get saved. They may decide to run after a false god after you convince them that a being created the universe. I know a person who believes in Pantheism. But they act more like an atheist. They are set out against the Bible and Jesus Christ. So they might as well be an atheist. For the god they believe in so far removed from the God of the Bible. In other words, when you talk about your faith and defense of God, leaving out the Bible is like taking oxygen out of a room we live and breath in. A person is going to be convicted by God's Word if indeed they are seeking to be convicted. Most in the atheist camp are not really looking for any real answers. They are simply looking to mock God and His Word.

You said:

Further, your post seems to over-generalize the condition of the soil of non-believers to be tilled and ready to receive the seed of the word of God. I don't assume that at all. My approach assumes hardness until proven otherwise. It also assume I start and finish with natural theology, which I don't.

So think pre evangelistic soil preparation when you look at the context of these videos and I think you will understand their use is just a piece in a larger puzzle which includes scripture, and the HS drawing and conviction and wisdom for many along the way.

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Like I said. I don't think you can leave God's Word out of your approach in reaching the lost. The videos you present are good but they are just one piece of the puzzle within the evidences among many (that is only for those who are truly seeking to see if God and His Word are true so that they can accept Jesus). Most are not convinced by such evidences. Faith is the evidences of things not seen. They have to take a step of faith without evidences. They will either respond to God's conviction or they won't do so. Ultimately it is about receiving God's Word into their heart. Not evidences. The seed is the Word of God.


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Uber Genius said:

So now you are misrepresenting my purpose! That is a sin.

I said it is part of a larger evangelistic effort.

First start based on the hardness of ground.

Second till the soil with arguments where they accept the premises

Repeat step 1 and 2 until they are willing to accept a premise about scripture being a trustworthy source of revelation.

Step 3 Present the gospel.

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First, nowhere did I say you did not believe in preaching the gospel at other times. I am saying that you cannot leave out the gospel or the Bible at any point in your evangelism. You are refusing to speak about the Bible or the gospel within this thread as a part of your effort for evangelism. You believe in doing so later when it suits you. I see no Biblical grounds for this kind of thing. Granted, I am open to seeing otherwise if you feel that is what the Bible teaches. But you are going to need Scripture to convince me and not your own words here.

Second, by what you are saying so far, it sounds like you are speaking contrary to the following words of Paul here.

1 "And I, brethren, when I came to you, came not with excellency of speech or of wisdom, declaring unto you the testimony of God.
2 For I determined not to know any thing among you, save Jesus Christ, and him crucified.
3 And I was with you in weakness, and in fear, and in much trembling.
4 And my speech and my preaching was not with enticing words of man's wisdom, but in demonstration of the Spirit and of power:
5 That your faith should not stand in the wisdom of men, but in the power of God.

Granted, I am not saying we cannot plant seeds and water by putting bits and pieces in the horses mouth (By mentioning verses around unbelievers). The way we live righteously as Christians can be a seed planted for years later to come for somebody. Praying for the lost. All these things can be efforts for evangelism but when we actually set out to lead people to God, we should not be afraid (or restrict ourselves based on human wisdom) to preach the gospel or talk about the Bible. It's a part of the great commission. Jesus told us to preach the gospel to all nations. He did not say that we are to preach cleverly fashioned arguments for the existence of God and then later preach the gospel.

You said:

Paul, Peter and the disciples followed my process in Acts. You just eliminated all they do to prepare the soil and make a mockery of Jesus' teaching on the same.

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Specific Scripture verses (after Christ's death and resurrection) please.

You said:

Yet you miss the fact that the time for the disciple to present the gospel didn't start until Acts. He is dealing with fulfilling scripture and teaching his disciples. But this is not how they spread the gospel in Acts.

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This is a different set of circumstances. It was the Old Covenant and not the New Covenant yet. The gospel was first preached to Israel during Christ's ministry. Granted, the full entirety of the gospel message (Christ's death and resurrection) was not fully realized or understood as a part of believing in Jesus for one's salvation until after His resurrection. It was God's intention to lead men to fully realize this full gospel message because Paul says in 1 Corinthians 15 that if Christ be not risen we are still in our sins. So fully realizing this is important. We cannot deny the resurrection. It was God's intention all along to realize this particular gospel message to preach to ALL nations and not the gospel that first went out to the Jews. For Christ had still yet to die and then rise from the dead. We are not under the Old Covenant anymore.

You said:

Did they all miss his lesson? Or do you not understand the context of his shake the dust off your feet periscope?

Your comments force a false dichotomy (either/or fallacy) when it is a both/and scenario.

Use the natural theolgy arguments until through the drawing of the HS an individual is willing to here the enormous evidence for the reliability and trustworthiness of the scriptures.

I am frustrated because for everyone well-meaning Christian that doesn't take the time to investigate these pre-evangelistic conditions and just throws up the four spiritual laws followed by, "The Bible says it, I believe it, that settles it," I have to work an additional 5 years before they trust me enough to even listen to the gospel.

I'm tired of cleaning up after individuals that boldly trample men's souls just to get the gospel out. Oh they get the gospel message alright,

"Christians just want to manipulate me to their worldview and are willing to pretend they care to get that done."

While not true in your case or others, that message is what non-Christians take away. And it takes me years before they trust me once they find out I'm a Christian.

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Again, you are going to have to present your case with Scripture that this is the case after the New Covenant had began with Christ's death. So far you have not really done that.

Side Note:

I am not saying you cannot present evidences like the videos you have given. But the problem I have is that you do not want to include Jesus, the gospel, or the Bible here. I do not see any such restrictions in evangelizing the lost as a part of the New Covenant after Christ's death and resurrection.


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