Christianity and War

Big Drew said:

Should we be pacifist? Jesus did say to turn the other cheek. However, we Believers are also called to take care of those in need...but to live by the sword is to die by the sword...

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I've wondered the same thing myself. You have to admire soldiers who get their hands dirty, while the rest of us debate the morality of the whole thing.

Big Drew said:

I'm posting this in GT because I want to discuss the theological aspects of this, and not the political...if the staff thinks there's a better forum for this, please move.

In light of the recent events in Syria I had to wonder...how should Christians view war? Should we be supportive if we believe our country has the moral high ground? Should we be pacifist? Jesus did say to turn the other cheek. However, we Believers are also called to take care of those in need...but to live by the sword is to die by the sword...

This has really been troubling me since last night, and I can tell I've changed...in the past I was one of the first to yell, "Bomb them!" But now...I don't know...maybe because at 36, basically my entire adult life America has been at war...and I'm tired of it...or maybe the deeper I get into my faith the more I see that this train of thought is not in line with the Lord. Maybe a combination of the two...

What say you, forumites?

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Our very freedom of religion and worship as we feel led is only maintained through the threat of force against those who would take such things away.

But it is always a question as to the proper use of deadly force. It is good to be careful in such things.

Big Drew said in post #1:

Should we be pacifist?

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Yes.

Under the Old Covenant, murder was forbidden (Deuteronomy 5:17), whereas killing in a war commanded by God was required (1 Samuel 15:3).

But under the New Covenant, which Christians are under (Matthew 26:28, Jeremiah 31:31), Christians are commanded never to harm anyone, even in self-defense (Matthew 5:39, Matthew 26:52). They are to be as harmless as doves (Matthew 10:16c). For Christians are commanded to love even their enemies (Matthew 5:44), and this means that they must do them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).

It is the meek who will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5, Psalms 37:11).

Christians don't employ physical weapons or any other violence against people (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). Instead, Jesus at his first coming set the example for what Christians are to do when they're physically attacked by people (1 Peter 2:19-23). They are to go meekly like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36), just like Jesus did (Isaiah 53:7). Obedient Christians don't fear death (Hebrews 2:15), and don't love their lives unto death (Revelation 12:11b), but hate their lives in this world, so that they might retain eternal life (John 12:25, Mark 8:34-38). For obedient Christians know that death is no loss for them, but gain (Philippians 1:21), as it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), which is far better than remaining in this world (Philippians 1:23).

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Christians (not in hiding) will have to face martyrdom with patience and faith to the end (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), just as Christians have always had to spiritually overcome in the face of martyrdom (e.g. Revelation 2:10-11).

Bible2+ said:

Yes.

Under the Old Covenant, murder was forbidden (Deuteronomy 5:17), whereas killing in a war commanded by God was required (1 Samuel 15:3).

But under the New Covenant, which Christians are under (Matthew 26:28, Jeremiah 31:31), Christians are commanded never to harm anyone, even in self-defense (Matthew 5:39, Matthew 26:52). They are to be as harmless as doves (Matthew 10:16c). For Christians are commanded to love even their enemies (Matthew 5:44), and this means that they must do them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).

It is the meek who will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5, Psalms 37:11).

Christians don't employ physical weapons or any other violence against people (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). Instead, Jesus at his first coming set the example for what Christians are to do when they're physically attacked by people (1 Peter 2:19-23). They are to go meekly like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36), just like Jesus did (Isaiah 53:7). Obedient Christians don't fear death (Hebrews 2:15), and don't love their lives unto death (Revelation 12:11b), but hate their lives in this world, so that they might retain eternal life (John 12:25, Mark 8:34-38). For obedient Christians know that death is no loss for them, but gain (Philippians 1:21), as it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), which is far better than remaining in this world (Philippians 1:23).

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Christians (not in hiding) will have to face martyrdom with patience and faith to the end (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), just as Christians have always had to spiritually overcome in the face of martyrdom (e.g. Revelation 2:10-11).

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So if the whole world was Christian and followed the Bible, there would be no wars?

Sorry this might be irrelevant but this latest "rules of war" used by Trump to reply to the gas attack. It makes me think of all the other things that are allowable in war, like torture and beheadings. So much awful violence is within the rules, it seems. War does seem totally unchristian in light of this.

Big Drew said:

...how should Christians view war? Should we be supportive if we believe our country has the moral high ground? Should we be pacifist? Jesus did say to turn the other cheek. However, we Believers are also called to take care of those in need...but to live by the sword is to die by the sword... forumites?

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Speaking as a fellow forumite...

Sticky, tricky. Supportive? Tough word to deal with here. We are called to lift up holy hands and pray for our government, and to live "quiet" lives, which means going about our business and simply trying to be the best citizens and a blessing to our government without causing any uproar (1 Timothy 2:1-3). So I suppose as good citizens we certainly shouldn't be rioting in the streets waving protest signs over it...

My conclusion? Pray for our government, while also praying for those at the wrong end of their artillery (Romans 12:18).

That's about all I got on this one. Hope it helps.

bettercallpaul said in post #7:

So if the whole world was Christian and followed the Bible, there would be no wars?

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That's right.

Also, that brought to mind the following verses:

Isaiah 2:2 And it shall come to pass in the last days, that the mountain of YHWH's house shall be established in the top of the mountains, and shall be exalted above the hills; and all nations shall flow unto it.
3 And many people shall go and say, Come ye, and let us go up to the mountain of YHWH, to the house of the God of Jacob; and he will teach us of his ways, and we will walk in his paths: for out of Zion shall go forth the law, and the word of YHWH from Jerusalem.
4 And he shall judge among the nations, and shall rebuke many people: and they shall beat their swords into plowshares, and their spears into pruninghooks: nation shall not lift up sword against nation, neither shall they learn war any more.

Here the original Hebrew word (H5750) translated as "anymore" can be translated as "moreover" (e.g. Ezekiel 23:38, Exodus 3:15). So Isaiah 2:4 (and Micah 4:3) can mean that during the future millennium, nations not only will not wage war against each other; moreover, they will not even teach how to wage war. That is, there will not even be any military colleges or training bases during the millennium.

The millennium will begin after Jesus' second coming (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, Zechariah 14:3-21), when he will reign physically on the earth with the physically resurrected church for a thousand years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29, Psalms 2, Psalms 66:3-4). During the millennium, Jesus will place obedient Christians over cities (Luke 19:17-19), and nations (Revelation 2:26-29), and political divisions within nations (Matthew 19:28, Luke 22:30), while Jesus will be the King of kings (Revelation 19:16) over the entire earth (Zechariah 14:9, Psalms 72:8-11), reigning in the earthly Jerusalem (Micah 4:1-8,13, Zechariah 14:8-21).

Big Drew said:

I'm posting this in GT because I want to discuss the theological aspects of this, and not the political...if the staff thinks there's a better forum for this, please move.

In light of the recent events in Syria I had to wonder...how should Christians view war? Should we be supportive if we believe our country has the moral high ground? Should we be pacifist? Jesus did say to turn the other cheek. However, we Believers are also called to take care of those in need...but to live by the sword is to die by the sword...

This has really been troubling me since last night, and I can tell I've changed...in the past I was one of the first to yell, "Bomb them!" But now...I don't know...maybe because at 36, basically my entire adult life America has been at war...and I'm tired of it...or maybe the deeper I get into my faith the more I see that this train of thought is not in line with the Lord. Maybe a combination of the two...

What say you, forumites?

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I think Christians should love their enemies.. I do not believe Christians should take part in carnal combat.. Our wepon is the Word of God which is powerful in pulling down demonic strongholds in the minds of people..

Matthew 5:38-39

38 "You have heard that it was said, "An eye for an eye and a tooth for a tooth. 39But I tell you not to resist an evil person. But whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also.




Matthew 5: 43-48

43 "You have heard that it was said, "You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.' 44But I say to you, love your enemies, bless those who curse you, do good to those who hate you, and pray for those who spitefully use you and persecute you, 45that you may be sons of your Father in heaven; for He makes His sun rise on the evil and on the good, and sends rain on the just and on the unjust. 46For if you love those who love you, what reward have you? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47And if you greet your brethren only, what do you do more than others? Do not even the tax collectors do so? 48Therefore you shall be perfect, just as your Father in heaven is perfect.




Romans 12:17-21

17Repay no one evil for evil. Have regard for good things in the sight of all men. 18If it is possible, as much as depends on you, live peaceably with all men. 19Beloved, do not avenge yourselves, but rather give place to wrath; for it is written, "Vengeance is Mine, I will repay," says the Lord. 20Therefore "If your enemy is hungry, feed him; If he is thirsty, give him a drink; For in so doing you will heap coals of fire on his head." 21Do not be overcome by evil, but overcome evil with good.




Matthew 5:9

Blessed are the peacemakers, For they shall be called sons of God.





II Corinthians 10:3,4

"For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh. For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal but mighty in God for pulling down strongholds."





Ephesians 6:12

"For we do not wrestle against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this age, against spiritual hosts of wickedness in the heavenly places."




Zechariah 4:6

"Not by might nor by power, but by My Spirit, says the Lord of Hosts."





Revelation 13:10

He who leads into captivity shall go into captivity; he who kills with the sword must be killed with the sword. Here is the patience and the faith of the saints.

Bible2+ said:

Yes.

Under the Old Covenant, murder was forbidden (Deuteronomy 5:17), whereas killing in a war commanded by God was required (1 Samuel 15:3).

But under the New Covenant, which Christians are under (Matthew 26:28, Jeremiah 31:31), Christians are commanded never to harm anyone, even in self-defense (Matthew 5:39, Matthew 26:52). They are to be as harmless as doves (Matthew 10:16c). For Christians are commanded to love even their enemies (Matthew 5:44), and this means that they must do them no harm (Romans 13:10a, Matthew 7:12).

It is the meek who will inherit the earth (Matthew 5:5, Psalms 37:11).

Christians don't employ physical weapons or any other violence against people (2 Corinthians 10:3-5, Ephesians 6:12-18). Instead, Jesus at his first coming set the example for what Christians are to do when they're physically attacked by people (1 Peter 2:19-23). They are to go meekly like sheep to the slaughter (Romans 8:36), just like Jesus did (Isaiah 53:7). Obedient Christians don't fear death (Hebrews 2:15), and don't love their lives unto death (Revelation 12:11b), but hate their lives in this world, so that they might retain eternal life (John 12:25, Mark 8:34-38). For obedient Christians know that death is no loss for them, but gain (Philippians 1:21), as it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (2 Corinthians 5:8), which is far better than remaining in this world (Philippians 1:23).

During the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, Christians (not in hiding) will have to face martyrdom with patience and faith to the end (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4, Matthew 24:9-13), just as Christians have always had to spiritually overcome in the face of martyrdom (e.g. Revelation 2:10-11).

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On the other hand, Jesus told his disciples they should carry a sword.

Luke 22:35-36 And He said to them, "When I sent you out without money belt and bag and sandals, you did not lack anything, did you?" They said, "No, nothing." And He said to them, "But now, whoever has a money belt is to take it along, likewise also a bag, and whoever has no sword is to sell his coat and buy one. NASU

Jesus was warning His disciples that there was going to be a fundamental shift in the nature of the divine providence that had protected and fed them til then.

Paul of Eugene OR said in post #12:

On the other hand, Jesus told his disciples they should carry a sword.

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Luke 22:36b means that every Christian should obtain the sword of the Holy Spirit, which is the Word of God (Ephesians 6:17, Hebrews 4:12). The "two swords" which are enough for all Christians (Luke 22:38) represent the two parts of God's Word: the Old Testament and the New Testament. Luke 22:36b can't mean that every Christian should obtain a physical weapon, for otherwise two physical weapons wouldn't have been enough for all the apostles (Luke 22:38). And Luke 22:36b can't mean that any Christian should obtain a physical weapon to attack other people with, even in self-defense. For Christians are elsewhere commanded not to defend themselves when they're attacked, but to turn the other cheek (Matthew 5:39). For those who take up a physical weapon to attack other people with, even in self-defense, will perish by a weapon (Matthew 26:52).

I believe that all acts of violence against other people are a sin, even when committed for the noblest of reasons. However, I believe that strict adherence to pacifism results, quite often, in uncontrolled violence and perpetration of sin by evil regimes left unchecked. I would encourage anyone to weigh whether or not greater evil would be committed against the world if the Christians sat idly by, versus the evil that they, themselves, must commit to prevent such an evil from being perpetrated. Whatever the case, always aim to reduce sin and evil. The aim is simple, but the method is complex, messy and uncertain. Just do your best and pray about it.

nonaeroterraqueous said in post #14:

However, I believe that strict adherence to pacifism results, quite often, in uncontrolled violence and perpetration of sin by evil regimes left unchecked.

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Note that pacifism as it spreads eventually undercuts evil regimes, for it robs them of soldiers willing to fight their wars for them.

nonaeroterraqueous said in post #14:

Whatever the case, always aim to reduce sin and evil.

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Are you thinking of the idea of the "just" war?

If so, note that even Christians can be susceptible to propaganda, so that they are lulled into thinking that a war is a "just war" when in fact it is not at all. Look at the American Civil War, for example. Both sides truly believed that God was on their side. Christians slaughtered Christians in the name of God, when in fact it was just for political and economic power. It was the same during the wars of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation: Catholic Christians slaughtered Protestant Christians, and Protestant Christians slaughtered Catholic Christians, all in the name of Christ.

And it was the same during World War II: Both sides in Europe truly believed that God was on their side. British Christians slaughtered German Christians, and German Christians slaughtered British Christians, and both sides truly believed that their cause was just.

Also, note that there are Christians even today (such as in the Christian Identity movement) who claim that it was Hitler who was waging a "just war" in World War II. Also, many non-German European Christians joined the Nazi cause during World War II because they were convinced by the Nazis that they were waging a "just war" against Communism. Similarly, the U.S. employed the idea of a "just war" against Communism to support, for example, the horrible and failed war in Vietnam.

So it would be better for Christians to avoid the whole idea of a "just war", and instead embrace the pacifism which is taught by Jesus:

Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints...

By abandoning New Testament pacifism, Christians leave themselves open to being deceived into fighting a so-called "just war" which is in fact Satanic. For example, many Christians could be deceived into joining the Antichrist's future and successful war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10). For the Antichrist could convince some Christians that his is truly a "just war", one even waged in the name of Jesus.

bettercallpaul said:

I've wondered the same thing myself. You have to admire soldiers who get their hands dirty, while the rest of us debate the morality of the whole thing.

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I believe that War should always be a last resort but I do believe that war is authorised in the New Testament.
Romans 13:1-7King James Version (KJV)
13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

Bible2+ said:

Note that pacifism as it spreads eventually undercuts evil regimes, for it robs them of soldiers willing to fight their wars for them.



Are you thinking of the idea of the "just" war?

If so, note that even Christians can be susceptible to propaganda, so that they are lulled into thinking that a war is a "just war" when in fact it is not at all. Look at the American Civil War, for example. Both sides truly believed that God was on their side. Christians slaughtered Christians in the name of God, when in fact it was just for political and economic power. It was the same during the wars of the Reformation and Counter-Reformation: Catholic Christians slaughtered Protestant Christians, and Protestant Christians slaughtered Catholic Christians, all in the name of Christ.

And it was the same during World War II: Both sides in Europe truly believed that God was on their side. British Christians slaughtered German Christians, and German Christians slaughtered British Christians, and both sides truly believed that their cause was just.

Also, note that there are Christians even today (such as in the Christian Identity movement) who claim that it was Hitler who was waging a "just war" in World War II. Also, many non-German European Christians joined the Nazi cause during World War II because they were convinced by the Nazis that they were waging a "just war" against Communism. Similarly, the U.S. employed the idea of a "just war" against Communism to support, for example, the horrible and failed war in Vietnam.

So it would be better for Christians to avoid the whole idea of a "just war", and instead embrace the pacifism which is taught by Jesus:

Matthew 5:39 But I say unto you, That ye resist not evil: but whosoever shall smite thee on thy right cheek, turn to him the other also.

Matthew 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, Put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

2 Corinthians 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war after the flesh:
4 (For the weapons of our warfare are not carnal, but mighty through God to the pulling down of strong holds)
5 Casting down imaginations, and every high thing that exalteth itself against the knowledge of God, and bringing into captivity every thought to the obedience of Christ;

Ephesians 6:12 For we wrestle not against flesh and blood, but against principalities, against powers, against the rulers of the darkness of this world, against spiritual wickedness in high places.
13 Wherefore take unto you the whole armour of God, that ye may be able to withstand in the evil day, and having done all, to stand.
14 Stand therefore, having your loins girt about with truth, and having on the breastplate of righteousness;
15 And your feet shod with the preparation of the gospel of peace;
16 Above all, taking the shield of faith, wherewith ye shall be able to quench all the fiery darts of the wicked.
17 And take the helmet of salvation, and the sword of the Spirit, which is the word of God:
18 Praying always with all prayer and supplication in the Spirit, and watching thereunto with all perseverance and supplication for all saints...

By abandoning New Testament pacifism, Christians leave themselves open to being deceived into fighting a so-called "just war" which is in fact Satanic. For example, many Christians could be deceived into joining the Antichrist's future and successful war against Biblical Christians (not in hiding) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10). For the Antichrist could convince some Christians that his is truly a "just war", one even waged in the name of Jesus.

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Pacifism has never stopped ISIS and other terror organisations. Pacifism enables terrorists, further more Romans 13-1-7 authorises the use of military action.

Romans 13:1-7King James Version (KJV)
13 Let every soul be subject unto the higher powers. For there is no power but of God: the powers that be are ordained of God.

2 Whosoever therefore resisteth the power, resisteth the ordinance of God: and they that resist shall receive to themselves damnation.

3 For rulers are not a terror to good works, but to the evil. Wilt thou then not be afraid of the power? do that which is good, and thou shalt have praise of the same:

4 For he is the minister of God to thee for good. But if thou do that which is evil, be afraid; for he beareth not the sword in vain: for he is the minister of God, a revenger to execute wrath upon him that doeth evil.

real tree said in post #17:

Pacifism has never stopped ISIS and other terror organisations.

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Note that neither has war.

But terrorists becoming pacifists would stop terrorism.

real tree said in post #17:

Pacifism enables terrorists . . .

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Actually, it doesn't. For terrorists aren't supplied with weapons by pacifists. Instead, war-profiteers enable terrorists.

real tree said in post #17:

Romans 13-1-7 authorises the use of military action.

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Indeed, but not by Christians (Matthew 5:39).

Bible2+ said:

Note that neither has war.

But terrorists becoming pacifists would stop terrorism.



Actually, it doesn't. For terrorists aren't supplied with weapons by pacifists. Instead, war-profiteers enable terrorists.



Indeed, but not by Christians (Matthew 5:39).

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So there are two laws here one for believers and one for non believers. I dont think so. To say that only non believers should only have to fight and die sounds a little self righteous to me.

Bible2+ said:

Note that neither has war.

But terrorists becoming pacifists would stop terrorism.



Actually, it doesn't. For terrorists aren't supplied with weapons by pacifists. Instead, war-profiteers enable terrorists.



Indeed, but not by Christians (Matthew 5:39).

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You have no idea what your talking about. terrorists such as ISIS are supported by governments that harbor terrorism such as Iran whose primary objective is to establish an Islamic Caliphate world wide. You have been watching to many conspiracy videos. I wouldn't hold my breath to long waiting on ISIS to embrace pacifism.