Test me: I think I can answer all the "unanswerable" questions!

WrongClub_Lucius · Mar 10, 2017

For years I have been troubled by seemingly simple questions within Christian theology that have no clear answer within traditional theology. And now I am learning a narrative that is coincides with "difficult" portions of scripture, reinforces principle beliefs, while forcing the re-characterization of traditional narratives of specific biblical accounts.

It is too big of a subject to "dump" all at once, so hopefully I can kick this off with a few key points, and then I can respond to people's questions/concerns as they come up? At this point I'm unsure how the "average" person will respond, so I don't know what support/arguments are relevant.

Why Did God Create?

I believe God created after the Devil's lie divided heaven, and God's creation was meant to test/disprove the Devil's lie and consequently restore the kingdom of Heaven from the damage caused by the Devil's lie. The Devil's lie challenged God's authority to rule, and if God suppressed the Devil and the lie, God would inadvertently confirm the Devil's lie to those who were watching. God's fundamental claim to the throne are his virtuous attributes, but silencing the Devil would be the action of a tyrant. Therefore God needed a way to display the Devil's evil.

What is the Devil's lie?

We know the lie...but we don't know it is THE lie. The Devil's lie is his "sales pitch" to Adam and Eve--"You can be like God, knowing good and evil."

What is this "sin" problem?

The fundamental problem of sin is not "wrong/bad" actions, but allegiance. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve chose the Devil's side of the argument; the garden presented them with a choice--the Tree of Life, or the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Why did Jesus have to die?

Humans became allies/captives of the Devil because of this "contractual" allegiance to the Devil that was confirmed by the eating of the fruit. And not desiring to give up his "advantage", the Devil set a ransom price for our release. This ransom price is not a "reasonable", "equitable", or in any way a pay-off of the total sum of debt incurred by the world's sin "debt". Rather, this ransom price was designed to be the most unreasonable and impossible demand.

But Jesus had to submit to this demand, because it was the only way to get us back...while complying with the arrangement he made with the Devil. For God to "break the rules" and take us back "by force" would prove the Devil's lie and ultimately destroy the remnants of God's kingdom.

What is salvation?

Salvation is allegiance to God. This allegiance takes the form of believing that God's law is good, independently of our ability to uphold the law. (This is the opposite of believing in the individual's ability to decide what is good and evil.) The Apostle Paul explains that he does what he wills not to do, and does not do what he wills to do...but the "law of spirit" is about agreeing with the law, that the law is good... You can read Romans for yourself if you are unfamiliar.

"The truth of God is made evident..."--What is this "Truth"?

The "Truth Project" had a section talking about God's truth, but it failed to even guess what this truth is. (And I can't find anyone else who attempts to articulate what this truth is.)

This "truth of God" is so fundamental to our reality...this truth is the concept of cause and effect, or "determinism". The question is Good vs. Evil, and the challenge is to learn what is good and what is evil. This earth, and creation as a whole, is a "fabric" that connects actions with consequences. By observing actions and their consequences, we can learn about our actions. Some actions lead to good outcomes, and some actions lead to bad outcomes. What is "good" leads to good, and what is "evil" leads to negative outcomes.

Why did God create? (part 2)

God created to demonstrate his claims of truth are true. Creation is important, because 1) it is a "safe" testing ground where the heavenly hosts can observe and learn, and 2) it is plausible to assume that this fabric of cause and effect is not so clear in the spiritual realm. The angels "look on with amazement"--this implies they are watching something unfold that is foreign to their own experience.

~Anastasia~ · Mar 10, 2017

Hello, WrongClub_Lucis, and welcome to CF, and to TT. I pray that you are blessed by being here.

For the type of discussion I think you may wish to have, you might need to have this moved somewhere like General Theology. But it's possible that I misunderstand your intent.

By the way, Tradition DOES have answers for "the big picture", at least to a degree. I don't really know that what you're approaching from is the same overall focus though, so I hesitate to provide an in-depth response.

I will say that from the perspective of the Orthodox Tradition, there are problems with the assumption that God's will is somehow captive to either natural law or the demands of the Adversary. This is one of the biggest objections to the idea of Penal Satisfaction (though I realize you are describing something else). I would further be uncomfortable with the seeming implication that the problem of sin and rebellion in the heavenlies caught God by surprise, perhaps, forcing Him to resort to a sort of plan-B to exonerate or prove Himself?

This just isn't how we see creation, sin, God, the fall, mankind, the restoration, at all. Though you do have some points within that we could agree with.

I think you could have a very robust discussion in GT with this topic. Here, you can learn what Tradition DOES have to say on this topic (and because we have various backgrounds represented in this forum, you will likely get different opinions, or at least some who focus differently). But we aren't really set up to explore new ideas, unless you wish to examine them in light of Tradition (which actually does have some of these answers).

I just wanted to welcome you, and try to help make sure your thread gets a good start in the appropriate area, if I can. If you need more information, you might be helped by the Statement of Purpose for Traditional Theology, which should have a banner link at the top of this page.

And again, welcome to CF! If there's anything we can do to help, feel free to ask!

Heber Book List · Mar 10, 2017

Post withdrawn

Tull · Mar 10, 2017

I'm to the point where I don't care about questions anymore,i have lived more life than I have left,i see people die all around me,i have seen the damage sin can do in my life and the lives of others.....Jesus saves sinners and forgives their sin if they trust him and repent.....the only answer I need anymore.

WrongClub_Lucius · Mar 10, 2017

~Anastasia~ said:
I think you could have a very robust discussion in GT with this topic. Here, you can learn what Tradition DOES have to say on this topic (and because we have various backgrounds represented in this forum, you will likely get different opinions, or at least some who focus differently). But we aren't really set up to explore new ideas, unless you wish to examine them in light of Tradition (which actually does have some of these answers).

I just wanted to welcome you, and try to help make sure your thread gets a good start in the appropriate area, if I can. If you need more information, you might be helped by the Statement of Purpose for Traditional Theology, which should have a banner link at the top of this page.

And again, welcome to CF! If there's anything we can do to help, feel free to ask!

Thanks for your courteous reply.

I think all theology comes from tradition, doesn't it? What I'm exploring is likely similar to the Ransom Theory of Atonement, which is an older tradition than the traditions we are keeping these days.

The switch from Ransom theory started around 1000AD with Anselm, and the popular reason for the change is that Ransom Theory gives too much power to the Devil. It may be true that religious leaders were improperly leveraging images of the Devil to scare people into obedience? So it would be easy to side-line the Devil to counter the problem. But it creates a new problem, because the Devil is one of the key characters!

But at this point I don't like to call it "Ransom Theory", because all the readily available information about the theory is quite weak. What remains of the original beliefs is little more than a straw man, which is likely a poor representation of what the original Christians believed. (But if someone knows a source that describes what the theory meant to the people who believed it, please let me know.)

The point about God being surprised is an interesting interpretation. What I am saying is that God is not a tyrant, and God will not allow himself to be perceived as a tyrant. Assuming that God knows everything, he must have known all along...so why didn't God take pre-emptive action to prevent "The Fall" and everything else? This is the question I asked when I was a child.

My answer is that God's fore-knowledge is not proof or justification for judgement. While God could have removed the Devil from Heaven before the lie surfaced, this action would have raised questions. Other persons would be startled by the sudden disappearance of the Devil (i.e. a previously glorious heavenly creature), and by this action God would suddenly appear to be unjust. And God wouldn't be able to justify his actions without lying, because explaining his actions would force God to reveal the lie he was trying to prevent from becoming known! And suddenly the Devil would be a myrtr, and God would be the one undermining his own right to the throne! We know that the lie was quite contageous, affecting 1/3 of heaven, plus overtaking this world.

With all of this said, there is one underlying question remaining--does God have perfect knowledge of everything in Heaven? While we know God "declares the end from the beginning", I think it is safe to say that in this specific passage, God is declaring what will happen on this earth. I am unaware of any similar declaration regarding the spiritual realm. So I do not see how God being surprised by the Devil's actions presents a serious theological problem.

~Anastasia~ · Mar 10, 2017

WrongClub_Lucius said:
Thanks for your courteous reply.

I think all theology comes from tradition, doesn't it? What I'm exploring is likely similar to the Ransom Theory of Atonement, which is an older tradition than the traditions we are keeping these days.

The switch from Ransom theory started around 1000AD with Anselm, and the popular reason for the change is that Ransom Theory gives too much power to the Devil. It may be true that religious leaders were improperly leveraging images of the Devil to scare people into obedience? So it would be easy to side-line the Devil to counter the problem. But it creates a new problem, because the Devil is one of the key characters!

But at this point I don't like to call it "Ransom Theory", because all the readily available information about the theory is quite weak. What remains of the original beliefs is little more than a straw man, which is likely a poor representation of what the original Christians believed. (But if someone knows a source that describes what the theory meant to the people who believed it, please let me know.)

The point about God being surprised is an interesting interpretation. What I am saying is that God is not a tyrant, and God will not allow himself to be perceived as a tyrant. Assuming that God knows everything, he must have known all along...so why didn't God take pre-emptive action to prevent "The Fall" and everything else? This is the question I asked when I was a child.

My answer is that God's fore-knowledge is not proof or justification for judgement. While God could have removed the Devil from Heaven before the lie surfaced, this action would have raised questions. Other persons would be startled by the sudden disappearance of the Devil (i.e. a previously glorious heavenly creature), and by this action God would suddenly appear to be unjust. And God wouldn't be able to justify his actions without lying, because explaining his actions would force God to reveal the lie he was trying to prevent from becoming known! And suddenly the Devil would be a myrtr, and God would be the one undermining his own right to the throne! We know that the lie was quite contageous, affecting 1/3 of heaven, plus overtaking this world.

With all of this said, there is one underlying question remaining--does God have perfect knowledge of everything in Heaven? While we know God "declares the end from the beginning", I think it is safe to say that in this specific passage, God is declaring what will happen on this earth. I am unaware of any similar declaration regarding the spiritual realm. So I do not see how God being surprised by the Devil's actions presents a serious theological problem.

Perhaps your thread can be suitably discussed here after all.

I will say that we have a particular definition for Tradition - such as derived from Scripture, which if translated can say "that which the Apostles 'traditioned' to us". It is the handing down of the faith, from Apostolic times.

With that said, unfortunately, no, not all theology comes from tradition. Some comes from misinterpretation, or even imaginations. Loosely defined "theology" at any rate.

I do think you are closest to the Ransom Theory, with a few twists thrown in. I think it is safest to say of Orthodoxy (my own Tradition) that we accept some aspects of the Ransom Theory, with a few questions/concerning parts not emphasized or left out.

It is our understanding that God indeed knows all ... not because He foresees it or forces it to happen, but because He is "I Am". All of history and creation is in a process of becoming, but God IS and can see it all at once. But this is only revealed to us (the plan of salvation) from the creation (Christ was the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world) or from the fall (God's promise regarding the woman's seed).

As far as theories of Atonement, there is truth in nearly all of them (we reject only PSA, that I am aware of, though there may be other minor ones off my radar), though some have problems (such as any thought of paying a ransom to Satan being necessary) while others are primary (Christus Victor - Christ deafeating death itself). God accomplished more than a single thing with Christ's death and resurrection.

I'll leave space for others to answer. This could be interesting. But it is not a habit of the Eastern mindset to speculate our way to Theology, so some parts are foreign to the story of creation, fall, and redemption that we are familiar with.

I will see if I can track down some info on how the early Church regarded exactly what you asked. I had a good bit of interest in theories of Atonement a few years ago but my interest has since shifted.

ViaCrucis · Mar 10, 2017

WrongClub_Lucius said:
For years I have been troubled by seemingly simple questions within Christian theology that have no clear answer within traditional theology. And now I am learning a narrative that is coincides with "difficult" portions of scripture, reinforces principle beliefs, while forcing the re-characterization of traditional narratives of specific biblical accounts.

It is too big of a subject to "dump" all at once, so hopefully I can kick this off with a few key points, and then I can respond to people's questions/concerns as they come up? At this point I'm unsure how the "average" person will respond, so I don't know what support/arguments are relevant.

Why Did God Create?

I believe God created after the Devil's lie divided heaven, and God's creation was meant to test/disprove the Devil's lie and consequently restore the kingdom of Heaven from the damage caused by the Devil's lie. The Devil's lie challenged God's authority to rule, and if God suppressed the Devil and the lie, God would inadvertently confirm the Devil's lie to those who were watching. God's fundamental claim to the throne are his virtuous attributes, but silencing the Devil would be the action of a tyrant. Therefore God needed a way to display the Devil's evil.

The kingdom of heaven isn't heaven.

What is the Devil's lie?

We know the lie...but we don't know it is THE lie. The Devil's lie is his "sales pitch" to Adam and Eve--"You can be like God, knowing good and evil."

The snake tempted and deceived Eve after creation, notice that things exist, including Eve and the serpent.

What is this "sin" problem?

The fundamental problem of sin is not "wrong/bad" actions, but allegiance. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve chose the Devil's side of the argument; the garden presented them with a choice--the Tree of Life, or the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Sin, by definition, is error or, more literally, "missing the mark"; it is the failure to do what we ought and how we ought.

Why did Jesus have to die?

Humans became allies/captives of the Devil because of this "contractual" allegiance to the Devil that was confirmed by the eating of the fruit. And not desiring to give up his "advantage", the Devil set a ransom price for our release. This ransom price is not a "reasonable", "equitable", or in any way a pay-off of the total sum of debt incurred by the world's sin "debt". Rather, this ransom price was designed to be the most unreasonable and impossible demand.

But Jesus had to submit to this demand, because it was the only way to get us back...while complying with the arrangement he made with the Devil. For God to "break the rules" and take us back "by force" would prove the Devil's lie and ultimately destroy the remnants of God's kingdom.

Similar to the notion of Ransom Theory, your phrasing seems troubling, namely that Jesus "had to" submit. No. God is not compelled by the demands of a deranged creature. Christ came into the world because God loves the world, it was an act of love, not compliance with the demands of the devil.

What is salvation?

Salvation is allegiance to God. This allegiance takes the form of believing that God's law is good, independently of our ability to uphold the law. (This is the opposite of believing in the individual's ability to decide what is good and evil.) The Apostle Paul explains that he does what he wills not to do, and does not do what he wills to do...but the "law of spirit" is about agreeing with the law, that the law is good... You can read Romans for yourself if you are unfamiliar.

The word itself should offer a clue as to its meaning, "rescue", salvation is God's rescue operation and the bringing things into and toward the purpose for which He made them.

"The truth of God is made evident..."--What is this "Truth"?

The "Truth Project" had a section talking about God's truth, but it failed to even guess what this truth is. (And I can't find anyone else who attempts to articulate what this truth is.)

This "truth of God" is so fundamental to our reality...this truth is the concept of cause and effect, or "determinism". The question is Good vs. Evil, and the challenge is to learn what is good and what is evil. This earth, and creation as a whole, is a "fabric" that connects actions with consequences. By observing actions and their consequences, we can learn about our actions. Some actions lead to good outcomes, and some actions lead to bad outcomes. What is "good" leads to good, and what is "evil" leads to negative outcomes.

Why did God create? (part 2)

God created to demonstrate his claims of truth are true. Creation is important, because 1) it is a "safe" testing ground where the heavenly hosts can observe and learn, and 2) it is plausible to assume that this fabric of cause and effect is not so clear in the spiritual realm. The angels "look on with amazement"--this implies they are watching something unfold that is foreign to their own experience.

The conclusion is based on what I would argue is a deeply flawed set of premises.

Not to rain on your parade, but I'd say that your statement that you can answer all "unanswerable" questions doesn't hold water; because you seem to be largely coming up with ideas ad hoc and inventing them.

-CryptoLutheran

WrongClub_Lucius · Mar 11, 2017

ViaCrucis said:
The kingdom of heaven isn't heaven.

The snake tempted and deceived Eve after creation, notice that things exist, including Eve and the serpent.

Sin, by definition, is error or, more literally, "missing the mark"; it is the failure to do what we ought and how we ought.

Similar to the notion of Ransom Theory, your phrasing seems troubling, namely that Jesus "had to" submit. No. God is not compelled by the demands of a deranged creature. Christ came into the world because God loves the world, it was an act of love, not compliance with the demands of the devil.

The word itself should offer a clue as to its meaning, "rescue", salvation is God's rescue operation and the bringing things into and toward the purpose for which He made them.

The conclusion is based on what I would argue is a deeply flawed set of premises.

Not to rain on your parade, but I'd say that your statement that you can answer all "unanswerable" questions doesn't hold water; because you seem to be largely coming up with ideas ad hoc and inventing them.

-CryptoLutheran

I'm not sure you are understanding me.

I am describing a series of events that I believe are clearly known to Biblical scholars, but which are never put together all at once.

The sequence I am suggesting is:
1) Rebellion in heaven because of the Devil's lie
2) God creates earth as a public trial/test of the Devil's lie
3) Adam and Eve are presented with a choice--the Tree of Life, or the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

(Writing/story telling is the art of inclusion, meaning that every element in the story is significant. The existence of two trees indicates a choice, even if the account doesn't explicitly say "Adam and Eve had to make a choice." In my Lutheran confirmation training, I was told that God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden so they could not go back and choose the Tree of Life. The Lutherans only noticed the "Oh no, they "will surely die" and "live forever" at the same time! But I think a much more natural conclusion is to say they can't choose both God and the Devil.)

And I must challenge you to develop your idea of salvation further. If salvation = "God's rescue operation", from what are we being rescued? In what way are we being rescued? From whom are we being rescued?

You signed, "cryptolutheran", so are you a Lutheran? Or are you the Evangelical Catholic? You should fully realize that the only thing Lutherans are 100% sure of is that they are not Catholic....sort of the same way that the English know they are not French.

I was originally trained in Lutheranism...I was taught about original sin and how God condemns every human being to death, unless we believe, in which case Jesus' blood washes us and makes us appear perfect to God. From outside of Lutheranism, this appears to be a strange self-deception. God the Father sends Jesus to die, so that Jesus' blood can wash away our sin, so that God can view us as sinless and deserving of heaven.

In this theology it appears that God is saving us from himself, and it is important to point out He is choosing to do it in a way that does not save the majority of people. Why didn't God come up with a glorious solution that saved everybody? And how can we really celebrate a salvation plan that condemns so many?

We must not forget God's omnipotence, which indicates that God knows from before creation began who is saved and who is not saved....so that takes us back to the original question, which is why would a loving and just God create such a wretched reality and then save so few? And why wouldn't God prevent the Devil from introducing sin into this world? Why would God put that wretched tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in his pristine Garden anyway? Why would God allow the Devil such freedom and influence on this earth; why would all the fallen angels be cast onto the earth?

These are the questions that I am answering. I believe the modern narrative is wholly inadequate.

All4Christ · Mar 11, 2017

WrongClub_Lucius said:
I'm not sure you are understanding me.

I am describing a series of events that I believe are clearly known to Biblical scholars, but which are never put together all at once.

The sequence I am suggesting is:
1) Rebellion in heaven because of the Devil's lie
2) God creates earth as a public trial/test of the Devil's lie
3) Adam and Eve are presented with a choice--the Tree of Life, or the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

(Writing/story telling is the art of inclusion, meaning that every element in the story is significant. The existence of two trees indicates a choice, even if the account doesn't explicitly say "Adam and Eve had to make a choice." In my Lutheran confirmation training, I was told that God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden so they could not go back and choose the Tree of Life. The Lutherans only noticed the "Oh no, they "will surely die" and "live forever" at the same time! But I think a much more natural conclusion is to say they can't choose both God and the Devil.)

And I must challenge you to develop your idea of salvation further. If salvation = "God's rescue operation", from what are we being rescued? In what way are we being rescued? From whom are we being rescued?

If you are a traditional Lutheran, then I can say I was trained in the same theology when I was young. I was taught about original sin and how God condemns every human being to death, unless we believe, in which case Jesus' blood washes us and makes us appear perfect to God. From outside of Lutheranism, this appears to be a strange self-deception. God the Father sends Jesus to die, so that Jesus' blood can wash away our sin, so that God can view us as sinless and deserving of heaven.

In this theology it appears that God is saving us from himself, and it is important to point out He is choosing to do it in a way that does not save the majority of people. Why didn't God come up with a glorious solution that saved everybody? And how can we really celebrate a salvation plan that condemns so many?

We must not forget God's omnipotence, which indicates that God knows from before creation began who is saved and who is not saved....so that takes us back to the original question, which is why would a loving and just God create such a wretched reality and then save so few? And why wouldn't God prevent the Devil from introducing sin into this world? Why would God put that wretched tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in his pristine Garden anyway? Why would God allow the Devil such freedom and influence on this earth; why would all the fallen angels be cast onto the earth?

These are the questions that I am answering. I believe the modern narrative is wholly inadequate.

Ah, but that depends on a version of the Western view of Original sin. I'll let some of my Western brethren answer questions / clarify their view. That said, have you considered the Eastern view of Original sin and salvation?

ETA: I honestly haven't heard anyone talk about your second item in your sequence.

WrongClub_Lucius · Mar 11, 2017

All4Christ said:
Ah, but that depends on a version of the Western view of Original sin. I'll let some of my Western brethren answer questions / clarify their view. That said, have you considered the Eastern view of Original sin and salvation?

ETA: I honestly haven't heard anyone talk about your second item in your sequence.

My equivalent to Original Sin is allegiance (i.e. to God or to the Devil), so I'm not sure how it fits with Eastern vs. Western? From my limited knowledge, it would be more Eastern.

I'm trying to be very specific about what actually happened. I have always wondered why the innocuous act of eating a fruit could be so bad. The story I grew up hearing never made sense to me.

The existing paradigm (atleast what I was taught) is of perfect creatures in a perfect world, who one day decide to disobey God.

I do not believe Adam and Eve were created to be perfect, as in sinless; I don't believe the Bible actually says this anywhere. (Theologians assume it, and this assumption has become a fundamental principle that is unquestionable, even though there is no proof.)

But I take issue with this assumption, because the Bible (the Apostle Paul) comments that sin was in the world before the law was given, but it was not counted against man until the law was given.

The view I was originally taught was that in the beginning, the earth was a heavenly paradise, with the lion laying down with the lamb...no death of any kind, no predators, no pain or suffering of any kind...because everything was perfect.

The story then says that everything changed when Adam and Eve sinned. But this is impossible; this unspeakably immense transformation of the natural world is not even mentioned in the Bible!

The only thing that happened is that God visits Adam and Eve (which is impossible according to traditional doctrines, because God can't be in the presence of sin, right?), and God tells them that their lives will now be very different. God is very gracious, and shows them kindness even in this moment.

And later on, when Cain kills Abel, God visits Cain. (Again, impossible if God cannot be in the presence of sin.) God promises to protect Cain, even though Cain is a murderer. The only way this makes sense is if we realize that God has not yet said, "thou shalt not murder". God gave Adam and Eve clothing, but he did not give them laws...why? Because Adam and Eve chose to believe that they can know what is good and evil for themselves.

WrongClub_Lucius · Mar 11, 2017

~Anastasia~ said:
It is our understanding that God indeed knows all ... not because He foresees it or forces it to happen, but because He is "I Am". All of history and creation is in a process of becoming, but God IS and can see it all at once.

In various religions throughout the world, it is common for there to be a single powerful God, or a myriad of smaller, less powerful Gods. In the example of Zoroastrianism, we get the picture of both, with a major powerful God, even a creator, who is distant from the world, and a host of smaller gods who are active in this world.

I think this Zoroastrianism gives the same picture I believe the Bible gives us of the spiritual realm. We have God, and then we have a world filled with fallen angels, all of which are claiming to be Gods in their own right. God is at a distance, and the demons are active in this world, being given freedom to roam and do what they please.

So when I look at Moses' question, "Who shall I say has sent me?", I see that Moses' question inadvertently undermines God's and claim of being the rightful king of heaven. It must have been the funniest thing the Devil has ever heard! I can imagine a swarm of demons laughing uncontrollably!

Moses is essentially saying he can't tell the difference between God and the various demons claiming to be Gods. (This by itself is a victory for the Devil.) So God is saying, we can infer in anger, "You know who I am!"

I think the Jew's treatment of this "name" is correct. Traditionally they do not write out this name or even pronounce it! They must have recognized that this "I am" thing is a sensitive subject. So they generally find other ways to identify God.

clearly I have a very different interpretation. I disagree that this "I am" thing carries any implication of omnipotence.

gordonhooker · Mar 12, 2017

LOL I believe the moment we believe we can answer all the unanswerable questions we have totally lost sight of the question.

So I will leave this one to you all....

Spiritlight · Mar 12, 2017

This might sound like a stupid question but since God fully indwelled Jesus when he went off to pray alone was he talking to himself?

prodromos · Mar 14, 2017

WrongClub_Lucius said:
So when I look at Moses' question, "Who shall I say has sent me?", I see that Moses' question inadvertently undermines God's and claim of being the rightful king of heaven.

Moses had been raised in Pharaoh's house and was not steeped in the traditional Hebrew knowledge of God. He was also being sent to the Jews as somewhat of an outsider, so he needed to know how to identify God in a way the Jews would recognise.
Personally, I believe the demons would have been trembling, not laughing.

ViaCrucis · Mar 14, 2017

Spiritlight said:
This might sound like a stupid question but since God fully indwelled Jesus when he went off to pray alone was he talking to himself?

Jesus, as the Son and Word of the Father is fully God from all eternity, as He has His Deity from the Father.
Jesus was not speaking to Himself, but to the Father. Though both the Father and He are God, the same God.

-CryptoLutheran

LoveofTruth · Mar 14, 2017

WrongClub_Lucius said:
For years I have been troubled by seemingly simple questions within Christian theology that have no clear answer within traditional theology. And now I am learning a narrative that is coincides with "difficult" portions of scripture, reinforces principle beliefs, while forcing the re-characterization of traditional narratives of specific biblical accounts.

It is too big of a subject to "dump" all at once, so hopefully I can kick this off with a few key points, and then I can respond to people's questions/concerns as they come up? At this point I'm unsure how the "average" person will respond, so I don't know what support/arguments are relevant.

Why Did God Create?

I believe God created after the Devil's lie divided heaven, and God's creation was meant to test/disprove the Devil's lie and consequently restore the kingdom of Heaven from the damage caused by the Devil's lie. The Devil's lie challenged God's authority to rule, and if God suppressed the Devil and the lie, God would inadvertently confirm the Devil's lie to those who were watching. God's fundamental claim to the throne are his virtuous attributes, but silencing the Devil would be the action of a tyrant. Therefore God needed a way to display the Devil's evil.

What is the Devil's lie?

We know the lie...but we don't know it is THE lie. The Devil's lie is his "sales pitch" to Adam and Eve--"You can be like God, knowing good and evil."

What is this "sin" problem?

The fundamental problem of sin is not "wrong/bad" actions, but allegiance. In the Garden of Eden, Adam and Eve chose the Devil's side of the argument; the garden presented them with a choice--the Tree of Life, or the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil.

Why did Jesus have to die?

Humans became allies/captives of the Devil because of this "contractual" allegiance to the Devil that was confirmed by the eating of the fruit. And not desiring to give up his "advantage", the Devil set a ransom price for our release. This ransom price is not a "reasonable", "equitable", or in any way a pay-off of the total sum of debt incurred by the world's sin "debt". Rather, this ransom price was designed to be the most unreasonable and impossible demand.

But Jesus had to submit to this demand, because it was the only way to get us back...while complying with the arrangement he made with the Devil. For God to "break the rules" and take us back "by force" would prove the Devil's lie and ultimately destroy the remnants of God's kingdom.

What is salvation?

Salvation is allegiance to God. This allegiance takes the form of believing that God's law is good, independently of our ability to uphold the law. (This is the opposite of believing in the individual's ability to decide what is good and evil.) The Apostle Paul explains that he does what he wills not to do, and does not do what he wills to do...but the "law of spirit" is about agreeing with the law, that the law is good... You can read Romans for yourself if you are unfamiliar.

"The truth of God is made evident..."--What is this "Truth"?

The "Truth Project" had a section talking about God's truth, but it failed to even guess what this truth is. (And I can't find anyone else who attempts to articulate what this truth is.)

This "truth of God" is so fundamental to our reality...this truth is the concept of cause and effect, or "determinism". The question is Good vs. Evil, and the challenge is to learn what is good and what is evil. This earth, and creation as a whole, is a "fabric" that connects actions with consequences. By observing actions and their consequences, we can learn about our actions. Some actions lead to good outcomes, and some actions lead to bad outcomes. What is "good" leads to good, and what is "evil" leads to negative outcomes.

Why did God create? (part 2)

God created to demonstrate his claims of truth are true. Creation is important, because 1) it is a "safe" testing ground where the heavenly hosts can observe and learn, and 2) it is plausible to assume that this fabric of cause and effect is not so clear in the spiritual realm. The angels "look on with amazement"--this implies they are watching something unfold that is foreign to their own experience.

how do you understand 1 John 3:6,8,10

GingerBeer · Mar 26, 2017

Spiritlight said:
This might sound like a stupid question but since God fully indwelled Jesus when he went off to pray alone was he talking to himself?

When prying does the prayer change God or give God information he did not already have? If not then aren't all prayers more like talking to one's self than like talking to God?

~Anastasia~ · Mar 26, 2017

GingerBeer said:
When prying does the prayer change God or give God information he did not already have? If not then aren't all prayers more like talking to one's self than like talking to God?

Hello, Ginger, and welcome to CF. I hope you are blessed by being here.

Prayers are often for our benefit, even though we ARE speaking to God. It really depends on the prayer.

ViaCrucis · Mar 27, 2017

GingerBeer said:
When prying does the prayer change God or give God information he did not already have? If not then aren't all prayers more like talking to one's self than like talking to God?

I've often viewed prayer as the means by which God invites us to bring ourselves to Him in humility; we come bearing our pain and praise, our troubles, our questions, our petitions, our thanks--God doesn't benefit from prayer, nor do we tell God anything He doesn't know already, nor is prayer a kind of "magick" by which we can alter the world through the power of words or thought--prayer is for our benefit, as Anastasia said. We pray with confidence, knowing He hears our prayer, which is why we can pray, "Forgive us of our trespasses" with the confidence that He faithfully forgives us our trespasses, this is for our benefit; we can come before God with our worries knowing that He cares and that He loves us. Through prayer we submit ourselves to God, and invite the Holy Spirit to continue to shape and mold us into being a people of God in Christ.

I don't believe prayer is merely psychological self-help, nor do we alter God, or cause some sort of "magick"; it is instead the open invitation and means by which God continues to work on us as His people. We are reminded in Scripture that the Spirit is alive in us, and that He even intercedes for us when we lack words,

"Likewise the Spirit helps us in our weakness. For we do not know what to pray for as we ought, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words." (Romans 8:26)

Prayer is like the Psalmist saying, "Out of the depths I cry to You, O Lord!" (Psalm 130:1), and Christ's promise is that God indeed hears us, and answers, for we have a kind and gracious Father who is good, who sends His rain upon the just and the unjust, who is kind to the thankless and the wicked.

He dresses the field with flowers, He knows every hair on our head, therefore let us pray to He who cares deeply for us and will do all that is good and right.

-CryptoLutheran

GingerBeer · Mar 30, 2017

~Anastasia~ & ViaCrusis I thank you for replying to my comment. It was written as a reply to spiritlight's question about Jesus really praying to himself since he is God and his prayer was addressed to God. I cannot pretend to know the answer to that question because it involves the mystery of the Trinity and that is a mystery I see only from externals revealed in scripture and explained in church council creeds. The hidden thought process of the Holy Trinity is still unknown. That is why it appears as if prayer – which apparently cannot inform God nor change God nor change God's purposes – may be self-edifying monologue. How a prayer spoken or thought by a Christian is received (and processed?) by God is completely hidden from my enquiring mind and my curiosity.

Test me: I think I can answer all the "unanswerable" questions!

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