Question about the Reformation
- Thread starter Original Happy Camper
- Start date
Albion
Facilitator
Let's make a bargain. You stop writing WRONG in boldface and larger than normal font, plus all the other bolding every few words in the body of your message, and I'll promise to use no LOL-ing (as you put it) or smilies.
Not so--and not what I wrote, either. Yes, the literacy rate for the whole of Europe might have been that (although no one can estimate with certainty), but the literacy rate in the Holy Roman Empire and England, where the Reformation was centered was considerably higher by the time that Protestant publications were flooding both countries.
Indeed.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Albion
Facilitator
Well, you missed that point. Women performing ANY liturgical functions involves the same problems.
No longer considered essential before communing.
Certainly. They've changed in several ways, but one is the granting of divorces if the applicant pays $800 or so. It's a divorce mill masquerading as an annulment procedure, with tens of thousands being granted each year only on the say-so of one spouse. And that's just in the USA.
Various Catholic sources, including the Pope. But you can test it for yourself. Inquire about the nature of Purgatory with a priest. Ask what you are expected to believe, and it will bear very little resemblance to the historic definition that was maintained for about 500 years until just recently. And if you want further proof, check your Catechism and print out for us here what it says about Purgatory.
Riiiight. That's what they say NOW. And of course the church HAS to say that or admit that its teachings are constantly changing.
Upvote
0
Albion
Facilitator
Roman Catholic Church
SSPX
SSPV
Old Catholic churches--many of them
Liberal Catholic Church
Philippine Independent Catholic Church
etc. etc.
That's exactly what a large percentage of Protestant churches say of the churches that have split off from them. So you can either compare apples to apples or oranges to oranges, but you don't get to compare apples (the Roman Catholic Church) to oranges (all the Protestant church SIMULTANEOUSLY, even ones that have no historical connection to other ones).
Upvote
0
MarysSon
Active Member
What "problems"?? Certainly not doctrinal ones.
The Catholic Church has never changed a SINGLE doctrine.
Can you show me the teaching on that in the Catechism??
Here is what the Church teaches:
(CCC) 1457 According to the Church's command, "after having attained the age of discretion, each of the faithful is bound by an obligation faithfully to confess serious sins at least once a year."56 Anyone who is aware of having committed a mortal sin must not receive Holy Communion, even if he experiences deep contrition, without having first received sacramental absolution, unless he has a grave reason for receiving Communion and there is no possibility of going to confession.57 Children must go to the sacrament of Penance before receiving Holy Communion for the first time.58
If you want to have a charitable conversation - then please refrain from lying.
And this is either the most ignorant thing you've said so far - or the biggest lie.
A Declaration of Nullity is not a divorce. Who told you that it was??
It is a declaration that a sacramental marriage never took place - and you can't always get one.
Do your homework . . .
If you're going to continue to LIE - then don't expect me to stop saying that you are WRONG.
From the Catechism of the Catholic Church:
(CCC) III. THE FINAL PURIFICATION, OR PURGATORY
1030 All who die in God's grace and friendship, but still imperfectly purified, are indeed assured of their eternal salvation; but after death they undergo purification, so as to achieve the holiness necessary to enter the joy of heaven.
1031 The Church gives the name PURGATORY to this final purification of the elect, which is entirely different from the punishment of the damned.606 The Church formulated her doctrine of faith on Purgatory especially at the Councils of Florence and Trent. The tradition of the Church, by reference to certain texts of Scripture, speaks of a cleansing fire:607
As for certain lesser faults, we must believe that, before the Final Judgment, there is a purifying fire. He who is truth says that whoever utters blasphemy against the Holy Spirit will be pardoned neither in this age nor in the age to come. From this sentence we understand that certain offenses can be forgiven in this age, but certain others in the age to come.608
1032 This teaching is also based on the practice of prayer for the dead, already mentioned in Sacred Scripture: "Therefore [Judas Maccabeus] made atonement for the dead, that they might be delivered from their sin."609 From the beginning the Church has honored the memory of the dead and offered prayers in suffrage for them, above all the Eucharistic sacrifice, so that, thus purified, they may attain the beatific vision of God.610 The Church also commends almsgiving, indulgences, and works of penance undertaken on behalf of the dead:
Let us help and commemorate them. If Job's sons were purified by their father's sacrifice, why would we doubt that our offerings for the dead bring them some consolation? Let us not hesitate to help those who have died and to offer our prayers for them.611
The onus is on YOU to prove that Limbo was an actual DOCTRINE of the Church. It wasn't.
Happy hunting . . .
Upvote
0
- Apr 30, 2013
- 30,678
- 18,559
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- United Ch. of Christ
- Politics
- US-Democrat
Luther was kicked out for asking tough question that needed to be addressed. Issues of a scandalous nature, such as the sale of indulgences and the assurance of false hope. From what I've read of him, it was not an easy thing to live with, and it haunted him in later years with depression and anxiety. I'm not saying he was a perfect human being but I think you are just being uncharitable here.
And you know, Luther's scrupulosity was not unique to him, many Catholics during that period faced the same problems. Catholics eventually worked out these issues to a degree but they still have a lot of problems dealing with the tough facts of life.
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Adstar
Well-Known Member
- May 10, 2005
- 2,184
- 1,382
- Country
- Australia
- Faith
- Non-Denom
- Marital Status
- Single
This response is ludicrous..
Illiterate people can be taught the Bible message by having someone read it out long to them.. They don't need to learn by paintings .. Most of the people of the World came to the Gospel knowledge by someone verbally preaching it to them..
It was illegal for a long time to translate the Bible from Latin into any other language.. This was done to suppress the scriptures to lock it up from the common people and for a time it was illegal for the common people to even own a Bible.. All Bibles where under the stifling control of the catholic church.. So yes the catholic church did it's best to suppress the Word of God but thats be to God for the reformation when the Word of God was liberated from it's prison and was released into all the tongues of the earth
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
MarysSon
Active Member
To say that Luther's so-called "95 Theses" were 95 grievances against the Church is patently false. Several of these theses were actually in support of Church doctrines. Luther's main gripe was the sale of indulgences.
His mistake was in accusing the Church of doing this when it was an abuse of Church power by local priests. The Church has NEVER sanctioned the sale of Indulgences. This is an anti-Catholic fairy tale. Men like Johann Tetzel were guilty of selling indulgences to the public and telling people that for a price, they could buy people out of Purgatory in order to raise money.
As far as being "uncharitable" - I don't believe stating the truth about Luther is being uncharitable.
It would be like me calling some of YOU uncharitable because you point it some mistakes people in the Church have made over the years. All of us need to face the truth about the past and not all of it is pretty . . .
Upvote
0
MarysSon
Active Member
In 1 Cor. 10:15, this is how the process is described:
"According to the grace of God given to me, like a wise master builder I laid a foundation, and another is building upon it. But each one must be careful how he builds upon it, for no one can lay a foundation other than the one that is there, namely, Jesus Christ. If anyone builds on this foundation with gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, or straw, the work of each will come to light, for the Day (judgment) will disclose it. It will be revealed with fire, and the fire [itself] will test the quality of each one’s work. If the work stands that someone built upon the foundation, that person will receive a wage. But if someone’s work is burned up, that one will suffer loss; the person WILL be saved, but only as through fire."
a. This is not talking about Heaven because the person suffers - and nobody suffers in Heaven.
b. It is not talking about Hell because it says the person will be SAVED - and nobody in Hell is saved.
c. This is talking about a third state - the state of purification before entering Heaven.
Since Revelation 21:27 tells us that nothing unclean can enter heaven, a final purification or purgation is necessary for some before entering heaven. Those in Purgatory will indeed make it into heaven.
This correlates perfectly with the Old Testament references to God as the Great "Refiner" (Malalchi 3:3, Jeremiah 6:27-30, Ezekiel 22:18, Psalm 119:119, Psalm 37:20, Zech. 13:9, Isa 48:10).
Upvote
0
Albion
Facilitator
That was the proximate cause of his concern, but the theses cover a lot more than that.
Tetzel not only was commissioned by the Vatican, but he had to kick back part of what he took in to the local politicians. And the selling was certainly known by the Church higher-ups, since the Church even issued certificates like bank notes to people who bought indulgences. This was a well-established routine and not at all a corrupt practice done on the QT by a disreputable friar.
Upvote
0
Tangible
Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato
- May 29, 2009
- 9,837
- 1,416
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Lutheran
- Marital Status
- Married
Common RCC mythology. The Roman Catholic Church is the descendant of several previous churches. There have been at least two defining moments indicating a major change in theology and confession.
One, and earliest, was the promulgation of papal supremacy. This contributed to the schism with the Eastern Church, and created much confusion and consternation in the West. Gradually, the formerly independent Western churches accepted the primacy of Rome and came under papal control.
Another was the Tridentine Council, which very narrowly limited and demanded conformity in a wide range of positions where formerly there had been tolerance and freedom of conscience.
These two events at least are sufficient to demonstrate that there have indeed been many changes over time which has resulted in the particular identity and confession of today's Roman Catholic Church.
Upvote
0
MarysSon
Active Member
Hmmmmm - why is it that when a Catholic responds to anti-Catholic lies and fairy tales like this – and then HE is “rude” for rebuking the one spouting off the lies?? If you don’t want to be rebuked – then stop telling lies. But, don’t expect me to just sit here and let you guys continue to proliferate these asinine myths.
The fact is that you are wrong - and a rudimentary study of Church history illustrates this. But you would rather believe in the lies than to actually do you homework. This is the reason you left the Church in the first place. I have 9 siblings who did the same thing when I was too young and too ignorant in my faith to answer their questions. They left for the same reason ALL people leave Christ’s Church: Ignorance due to laziness.
Instead of simply believing what you are told – go and research it for yourself. The Church has never been in the business of “suppressing” the Gospel from anybody. People like you believe that the Church wouldn’t let people have Bibles in their homes - which is a crock. I have already explained to you that until the invention of the printing press, Bibles were extremely hard to come by because they were handwritten and extremely expensive. I also explained that about 85% of the public was functionally illiterate and had no use for a Bible.
Now – for you and anybody else who wants to proliferate this lie – produce the document, declaration, decree or encyclical that propagated the "suppression" of the Gospel from the masses.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
MarysSon
Active Member
Wrong.
For starters – the Catholic Church is not called, “The Roman Catholic Church”. It is simply called, “The Catholic Church” – so get your story straight.
Secondly – the Catholic Church can trace itself in an unbroken line of succession all the way back to the Apostles. NONE of your tens of thousands of perpetually-splintering Protestant sects can make this claim - as MOST of them popped up in the last 100 years. There were no other “churches” before the ONE Church established by Christ (Matt. 16:18, John 17:20-23).
Thirdly – there was no “Tridentine” Council. If you are referring to the Council of Trent – then you need to list the doctrines that were “changed”.
Finally – the East-West split came about in the 11th century. Papal supremacy had been acknowledged for some 1000 years. We see this in the writings of the Early Church:
Clement of Rome
Accept our counsel and you will have nothing to regret. . . . If anyone disobeys the things which have been said by him [Jesus] through us, let them know that they will involve themselves in no small danger. We, however, shall be innocent of this sin and will pray with entreaty and supplication that the Creator of all may keep unharmed the number of his elect (Letter to the Corinthians 58:2, 59:1[A.D. 95]).
Ignatius of Antioch
You [the See of Rome] have envied no one, but others have you taught. I desire only that what you have enjoined in your instructions may remain in force (Epistle to the Romans 3:1 [A.D. 110]).
Irenaeus
But since it would be too long to enumerate in such a volume as this the succession of all the churches, we shall confound all those who, in whatever manner, whether through self-satisfaction or vainglory, or through blindness and wicked opinion, assemble other than where it is proper, by pointing out here the successions of the bishops of the greatest and most ancient church known to all, founded and organized at ROME by the two most glorious apostles. Peter and Paul, that church which has the tradition and the faith which comes down to us after having been announced to men by the apostles. With that church, because of its superior origin, ALL THE CHURCHES MUST AGREE, that is, all the faithful in the whole world, and it is in her that the faithful everywhere have maintained the apostolic tradition (Against Heresies 3:3:2 [inter A.D. 180-190]).
Clement of Alexandria
The blessed Peter, the chosen, the preeminent, the first among the disciples, for whom alone with himself the Savior paid the tribute [Matt. 17:27], quickly grasped and understood their meaning. And what does he say? "Behold, we have left all and have followed you" [Matt. 19:2 7, Mark 10:28] (Who is the Rich Man That is Saved? 21:3-5 [A.D. 200]).
Tertullian
The Lord said to Peter, "On this rock I will build my Church, I have given you the keys of the kingdom of heaven [and] whatever you shall have bound or loosed on earth will be bound or loosed in heaven" [Matt. 16:18-19]. ... Upon you, he says, I will build my Church; and I will give to you the keys, not to the Church; and whatever you shall have bound or you shall have loosed, not what they shall have bound or they shall have loosed (Modesty 21:9-10 [A.D. 220]).
Letter of Clement to James
Be it known to you, my lord, that Simon [Peter], who, for the sake of the true faith, and the most sure foundation of his doctrine, was set apart to be the foundation of the Church, and for this end was by Jesus himself, with his truthful mouth, named Peter, the first-fruits of our Lord, the first of the apostles; to whom first the Father revealed the Son; whom the Christ, with good reason, blessed; the called, and elect (Letter of Clement to James 2 [A.D, 221]).
Cyprian
With a false bishop appointed for themselves by heretics, they dare even to set sail and carry letters from schismatics and blasphemers to the Chair of Peter and to the PRINCIPAL CHURCH AT ROME, in which sacerdotal unity has its source" (Epistle to Cornelius [Bishop of Rome] 59:14 [A.D. 252]).
The Lord says to Peter: "I say to you," he says, "that you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my Church" . . . On him he builds the Church, and to him he gives the command to feed the sheep John 21:17], and although he assigns a like power to all the apostles, yet he founded a SINGLE CHAIR [cathedra], and he established by his own authority a source and an intrinsic reason for that unity. Indeed, the others were that also which Peter was [i.e., apostles], but a primacy is given to Peter, whereby it is made clear that THERE IS BUT ONE CHURCH AND ONE CHAIR. So too, all [the apostles] are shepherds, and the flock is shown to be one, fed by all the apostles in single-minded accord. If someone does not hold fast to this unity of Peter, can he imagine that he still holds the faith? If he [should] desert the chair of Peter upon whom the Church was built, can he still be confident that he is in the Church? (The Unity of the Catholic Church 4 [A.D. 251]).
Cyril of Jerusalem
In the power of the same Holy Spirit, Peter, both the chief of the apostles and the keeper of the keys of the kingdom of heaven, in the name of Christ healed Aeneas the paralytic at Lydda, which is now called Diospolis [Acts 9 ;3 2-3 4] (Catechetical Lectures 17;27 [A.D. 350]).
Optatus
In the city of Rome the Episcopal chair was given first to Peter, the chair in which Peter sat, the same who was head — that is why he is also called Cephas — of all the apostles, THE ONE CHAIR IN WHICH UNITY ISMAINTAINED BY ALL. Neither do the apostles proceed individually on their own, and anyone who would [presume to] set up another chair in opposition to that single chair would, by that very fact, be a schismatic and a sinner. . . . Recall, then, the origins of your chair, those of you who wish to claim for yourselves the title of holy Church" (The Schism of the Donatists 2:2 [circa A.D. 367]).
Ambrose of Milan
[Christ] made answer: "You are Peter, and upon this rock will I build my Church . . ." Could he not, then, strengthen the faith of the man to whom, acting on his own authority, he gave the kingdom, whom he called the rock, thereby declaring him to be the foundation of the Church [Matt. 16:18]? (The Faith 4:5 [A.D. 379]).
Augustine
Among these [apostles] Peter alone almost everywhere deserved to represent the whole Church. Because of that representation of the Church, which only he bore, he deserved to hear "I will give to you the keys of the kingdom of heaven" (Sermons 295:2 [A.D. 411]).
Who is ignorant that the first of the apostles is the most blessed Peter? (Commentary on John 56:1 [A.D. 416]).
Upvote
0
Tangible
Decision Theology = Ex Opere Operato
- May 29, 2009
- 9,837
- 1,416
- Country
- United States
- Faith
- Lutheran
- Marital Status
- Married
It may not be the official name, but it is commonly known as the Roman Catholic Church to differentiate it from all the other Catholic Churches.
As can every other Christian church in the world, unless you can demonstrate for me an instance where a Christian church spontaneously generated.
See above. And I don't belong to tens of thousands of Protestant sects, even if that were true. I belong to the Lutheran Church - Missouri Synod, a church that can very easily demonstrate its historical development back to the day of Pentecost.
"Tridentine" is the adverbial form. You can either say "The Council of Trent" or "The Tridentine Council." Same thing.
Listing all the changes promulgated at Trent would take much more time and commitment than I have for this conversation. And it's not like you would provide considered responses. You would probably just say ...
Wrong.
Upvote
0
MarysSon
Active Member
If you had read the posts - you would have seen where I talked about this historical implications of "Roman Catholic Church."
The name arose during Henry VIII's reign to differentiate the "Catholic" Church of England and the Catholic Church in Rome.
There are no "other" Catholic Churches - there is only ONE.
No they can't. You can give the dates and the names of the founder of each Protestant sect. The roots of YOUR sect only go back as far as Martin Luther - and even that is not "unbroken" . . .
If you believe that the Catholic Church did NOT start with Jesus - then give me the name of the man who DID start it and the year.
The Lutheran Church was around on the day of Pentecost??
Now THAT'S quite a claim. Care to trace the unbroken line of Apostolic succession??
Claiming something are proving it are two very different things . . .
Then just give me a few of the "changes".
How about THREE?? Surely, you can name three . . .
Last edited:
Upvote
0
Albion
Facilitator
It became common at about that time, but the name of the church even today, the legal name, includes "Roman," and it was common to refer to the Vatican's church as the "Church of Rome" even before Luther.
Because it refers to itself today as the "Roman Catholic Church," there would seem to be little reason for getting upset over anyone else using that term. But most of all, there has to be a way to distinguish the Roman Catholic Church from all the other Catholic churches without denigrating these by using a bunch of modifiers.
Upvote
0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums
Similar threads
