Question about the Reformation

Original Happy Camper

One of GODS Children I am a historicist
Supporter
Mar 19, 2016
4,195
1,970
Alabama
✟486,806.00
Country
United States
Faith
SDA
Marital Status
Married
Yes.

What else can one say if the reforms were in accord with Scripture and were needed at the time?

so are their teachings from the Holy Spirit? If so are they still valid?
 
Upvote 0

PollyJetix

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2017
1,128
1,241
Virginia
✟35,433.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The reformers were indeed led by the Holy Spirit.
However, as humans, we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Therefore, it is a mistake to identify ourselves so strongly with those long-ago leaders of the Reformation.
By definition, they were human leaders. They may have been led of the Spirit, but they may not have understood all the Spirit was attempting to teach them. In other words, they may not have followed the Holy Spirit completely.

By standing firmly upon dogma established by human leaders, we put ourselves in the unenviable position of respecting a long-dead leader, more than the living, breathing Word of God.

Because the Word is so much more than any human has ever understood or codified!
 
Upvote 0

Shempster

ImJustMe
Supporter
Dec 28, 2014
1,560
786
✟258,881.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Yes, of course, they were.
Having said that, this does not mean that everything they did and promoted was of God.
It's likely that they had a renewed spirit revealed by the Father, but they were still human. All these denomination splits may start with righteous intentions, but since we only see in part, we add all sorts of human ideas in the mix. The Apostle Paul did that quite a bit. He had all of these rules about men and women and head coverings and all.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: SkyWriting
Upvote 0

PollyJetix

Well-Known Member
Feb 15, 2017
1,128
1,241
Virginia
✟35,433.00
Faith
Christian
Marital Status
Single
The Apostle Paul ... had all of these rules about men and women and head coverings and all.
Actually, the "rules" are made by those who misunderstand what Paul was saying.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 were a quote from the letter Paul was answering, when he wrote I Corinthians.
And Paul's answer to that quote is found in the next verse, 1 Corinthians 14:36.
And 1 Timothy 2:11-15 was all about ONE woman, who was a false teacher. This can be proved from the Greek, and from history of Corinthian cults.

As far as 1 Corinthians 11 and headcoverings... this passage has been so misunderstood! Verses 3-12 are only establishing the need for a covering. But verses 13-16 define what the covering is, and give the conclusion of the matter.
It's so easy to read the bible superficially, putting people into bondage. When the entire focus of the New Covenant is freedom.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: SkyWriting
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The reformers heard God, but only to a certain point.
Unfortunately in many cases they went way beyond that point.

Example: the antisemitism of both Luther and Calvin.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Yes, of course, they were.
Having said that, this does not mean that everything they did and promoted was of God.

And we should probably also add that we're not saying that every leader of every religious movement of the 16th and 17th centuries comes in for the same assessment. We know that, when the Reformation showed signs of success, it invited all sorts of other people with a grievance into the field. Those whom we usually call the "Reformers" (Luther, Calvin, et al) had to disavow those people's teachings along with the erroneous teachings and practices of the Church of Rome.
 
  • Agree
Reactions: Tangible
Upvote 0

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
63
Left coast
✟55,100.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
The reformers were indeed led by the Holy Spirit.
However, as humans, we know in part, and we prophesy in part.

Therefore, it is a mistake to identify ourselves so strongly with those long-ago leaders of the Reformation.
By definition, they were human leaders. They may have been led of the Spirit, but they may not have understood all the Spirit was attempting to teach them. In other words, they may not have followed the Holy Spirit completely.

By standing firmly upon dogma established by human leaders, we put ourselves in the unenviable position of respecting a long-dead leader, more than the living, breathing Word of God.

Because the Word is so much more than any human has ever understood or codified!
Seems the "living, breathing Word of God" changes regularly given the divisions of Protestants today, even among those calling themselves various versions of Adventist. As seen in this thread, many Christians outside the Church don't even want to be called Protestants/protestors anymore.

Holding to something apparently so slippery and allusive that it need so many 'adjustments' every generation or so (or less), am not sure why anyone should feel more comforted just by labeling it the "living, breathing Word of God". Part of the reason the Church became so attractive to me was the firm foundation and knowing that the teaching of truth cannot change and that God promised the Apostles His teachings would be protected and the Church would never fall.

Did the Church need reforms? Well, yes it did and those reforms actually happened, just not with the speed a disgruntled and troubled Priest wanted. And in the process of things that Priest set in motion, the resulting disunity and dysfunctions that spread like a cancer and grows further today within the Body of Christ cannot be attributed to a work of the Spirit.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Did the Church need reforms? Well, yes it did and those reforms actually happened, just not with the speed a disgruntled and troubled Priest wanted.
Yeh, like during the 1960s and 70s and still unfolding. If Christians had only waited on the Vatican for 400 years or so. :doh:
 
  • Like
Reactions: PollyJetix
Upvote 0

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
63
Left coast
✟55,100.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Yeh, like during the 1960s and 70s and still unfolding. If Christians had only waited on the Vatican for 400 years or so. :doh:
Not the Reformation I was referring to, but thanks for playing.
 
Upvote 0

Albion

Facilitator
Dec 8, 2004
111,138
33,258
✟583,842.00
Country
United States
Faith
Anglican
Marital Status
Married
Not the Reformation I was referring to, but thanks for playing.
There is one Reformation. From what I can tell, you were speaking of some more recent developments in church history, but that's not the Reformation and, incidentally also, not that significant by comparison. The posts that preceded yours DID have the Protestant Reformation in mind, so you can see why I had that in mind also.
 
Upvote 0

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
63
Left coast
✟55,100.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
There is one Reformation. From what I can tell, you were speaking of some more recent developments in church history, but that's not the Reformation and, incidentally also, not that significant by comparison. The posts that preceded yours DID have the Protestant Reformation in mind, so you can see why I had that in mind also.
the Reformation I referenced ended with the council at Trent (started with Luther still alive BTW) was finally closed (1563) and that closure delayed for many reasons rather than viewing it as completely unsettled until 1563. Also and technically the remaining conservative segments of leadership still present in the 16th century had long been attempting to make reforms in response to various liberal "enlightenments" beginning centuries before Luther was born (with roots starting in the 13th century), but that was not the topic of the thread, which was obviously a reference to the Protestant Reformation.
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

SkyWriting

The Librarian
Supporter
Jan 10, 2010
37,279
8,499
Milwaukee
✟410,918.00
Country
United States
Faith
Non-Denom
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
Actually, the "rules" are made by those who misunderstand what Paul was saying.
1 Corinthians 14:34-35 were a quote from the letter Paul was answering, when he wrote I Corinthians.
And Paul's answer to that quote is found in the next verse, 1 Corinthians 14:36.
And 1 Timothy 2:11-15 was all about ONE woman, who was a false teacher. This can be proved from the Greek, and from history of Corinthian cults.

As far as 1 Corinthians 11 and headcoverings... this passage has been so misunderstood! Verses 3-12 are only establishing the need for a covering. But verses 13-16 define what the covering is, and give the conclusion of the matter.
It's so easy to read the bible superficially, putting people into bondage. When the entire focus of the New Covenant is freedom.

Yes, Paul really messed that up.
 
Upvote 0

Dave-W

Welcoming grandchild #7, Arturus Waggoner!
Supporter
Jun 18, 2014
30,521
16,866
Maryland - just north of D.C.
Visit site
✟771,800.00
Country
United States
Faith
Messianic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
As seen in this thread, many Christians outside the Church don't even want to be called Protestants/protestors anymore.
How do YOU define "Protestant?"
 
Upvote 0
This site stays free and accessible to all because of donations from people like you.
Consider making a one-time or monthly donation. We appreciate your support!
- Dan Doughty and Team Christian Forums

DrBubbaLove

Roman Catholic convert from Southern Baptist
Supporter
Aug 8, 2004
11,336
1,728
63
Left coast
✟55,100.00
Faith
Catholic
Marital Status
Married
Politics
US-Others
How do YOU define "Protestant?"
Why does my definition matter?
The point was many Christians forget the origin of the word and the Church being "protested". Calling themselves generically "Christians" or "non-denominational" further obscures the origin of their beliefs - no matter how far removed/branched off from it they be.
 
  • Like
Reactions: anna ~ grace
Upvote 0