Historicist Only the time is near

the time is near
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they have been saying that for a long time
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they may not know what they are talking about
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and you do?
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I know what he was talking about
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who?
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john the baptist
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wasn't he preparing the way?
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yes and the time was near
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I thought we were talking about the apocalypse
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we are
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are you suggesting he wrote it?
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I am
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that's kind of weird
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it is just a well kept secret
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how do you know about it?
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I think I am being led

so why is this an 'historicist only' thread?
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so futurists can't trash it
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why would they trash it?
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I can only speculate
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so speculate
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it must threaten them
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why would it threaten them?
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I think they are afraid of history
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why would they be afraid of history?
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they have a lot invested in their interpretation which only the future can satisfy

so why are you an historicist?
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we are told to watch
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history?
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it is all we have
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what about scripture?
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your interpretation or mine
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the spirit will lead me
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have you tested that spirit?
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Thou shalt not tempt the Lord thy God
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the word 'test' is not even in your bible
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faith is
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so is work

don't you have to change your interpretation to make it fit history?
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yes
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don't you see the problem with that?
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it is not a problem, it improves your interpretation
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really?
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really
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so you can make anything fit?
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not really, I am limited by reason, logic, and common sense
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we are all limited by that
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I haven't noticed
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why haven't others discovered this?
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many have, not much of my stuff is unique

so how did you get started on this?
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twenty years ago louis farrakhan called the pope a harlot on tv
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that must have hurt
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it sure got my attention, he cited the chapter in the last book of the bible
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what did you do?
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I was determined to find out who the harlot was so I read the apocalypse again and quickly found out she was a city with seven hills which pointed to rome
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everybody knows that
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so it can't be a mystery

so you think the byzantine empire is the thousand years?
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yes
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Jesus didn't reign
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where does is say Jesus will reign?
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rev 20:4
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that says they will reign with Christ
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so?
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how do you reign with Christ?
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you don't, Christ will reign
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that is not what it says
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okay, how do you reign with Christ?
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anytime two or three are gathered in His name, Christ is there with them
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so Christ is with them if they are reigning?
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that is what the bible says

what about chapter 19 and the second coming?
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just because chapter 19 comes before chapter 20 doesn't mean the second coming precedes the thousand years
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based on what?
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recapitulation
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what's that?
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theory that all visions must be evaluated all by themselves and that they are not necessarily in chronological order
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who came up with that?
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victorinus and it is accepted by most commentaries

so let's cut to the chase
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good movies don't have a chase
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how about the opening credits?
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AUTHOR - john the baptist and john the apostle
FOUR HORSEMEN - constantine, mohammed, marx, mother nature
THE LITTLE BOOK - the apocalypse
THE TWO WITNESSES - church and state
THE TWO BEASTS - roman empire and islam
666 - year
BABYLON THE GREAT - constantinople
SEVEN HEADS - dynasties of the roman empire
TEN HORNS - dynasties of islam
THOUSAND YEARS - byzantine empire
NEW JERUSALEM - rome
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you will have to explain this
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I will

what makes you think john the baptist wrote it?
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this is not the place to start
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where do you start?
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with the biggest part
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the thousand years?
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let's see if it fits
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how do you do that?
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see if it has all the other parts
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parts is parts
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we will see that it does have all the parts

so you think the byzantine empire has all the parts?
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yes I do
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can you list the parts?
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thousand years
babylon the great
two beasts
one with seven heads
one with ten horns
two witnesses
the four horsemen
666
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will you show how they all fit?
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I will

show me the parts
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-the year was 666
-the place was constantinople, babylon the great, capital of a christian empire that would last a thousand years, started by constantine, the rider of the white horse, who mortally wounded the first beast, paganism of the roman empire
-they used greek fire on the sea of marmara which on a calm day is like a sea of glass, to defeat the second beast, islam, started by the rider of the red horse, mohammed
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do you have scripture for that?
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Revelation 15:2 (KJV)
2 And I saw as it were a sea of glass mingled with fire: and them that had gotten the victory over the beast, and over his image, and over his mark, and over the number of his name, stand on the sea of glass, having the harps of God.

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that is not sufficient
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it is a good start

how is constantinople a good fit?
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it has all the characteristics of babylon the great
-many waters 17:1
-mystery 17:5
-seven hills 17:9
-it was famous for trade 18:11
-it has fallen, fallen 18:2
-can be found no more at all 18:21
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why is this not recognized by others?
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it is a mystery

so you got a few parts to fit
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they are big parts
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you had to change your interpretation of scripture
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not really, I was just looking for something that might fit
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you had to start with some interpretation
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it was a literal interpretation, a city with seven hills, a thousand year empire, etc
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but Jesus didn't reign
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it doesn't say Jesus will reign
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how do you reign with Jesus?
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just do it in His name and He will be there with them

what about the four horsemen?
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I already mentioned them in post #9
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how do they fit in?
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in post #13 I showed how the first two fit
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what about the colors?
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constantine from the white sea
mohammed from the red sea
marx from the black sea
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whoa, constantine from the white sea?
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the turks have always referred to the mediterranean as the white sea
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what about the bow?
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in genesis 9:13 it is a covenant between God and man
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so constantine was a man of God?
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who could do what he did without a lot of help from God?

can we now talk about why you think john the baptist wrote the apocalypse?
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the first version
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the first version
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I didn't come up with this
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who did?
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josephine ford
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does the church support this?
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the church does not have an official view on the apocalypse
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doesn't the church hold that the apostle wrote it?
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yes but it does recognize the jewish nature of it
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where?
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new advent
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can you quote it?
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" We cannot conclude without mentioning the theory advanced by the German scholar Vischer. He holds the Apocalypse to have been originally a purely Jewish composition, and to have been changed into a Christian work by the insertion of those sections that deal with Christian subjects. From a doctrinal point of view, we think, it cannot be objected to. There are other instances where inspired writers have availed themselves of non-canonical literature. Intrinsically considered it is not improbable. The Apocalypse abounds in passages which bear no specific Christian character but, on the contrary, show a decidedly Jewish complexion. Yet on the whole the theory is but a conjecture."

what about the little book?
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in post #9 I said it was the apocalypse
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did he eat it?
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the apostle john did
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why?
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he was told to
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why?
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so he could prophesy again
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why?
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I can only speculate
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so speculate
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to add the Jesus part to a jewish document, at the time there were followers of john the baptist in ephesus who did not accept Jesus
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to make sure this apocalypse was put in the bible, it is in because the right people thought the apostle wrote it

what about the two witnesses?
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church and state
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where did that come from?
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zechariah 4
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two olive trees?
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it's easy to find
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how does that lead to church and state?
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joshua is the church and zerubabable is the state
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so they worked together
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just like the byzantine empire and the holy roman empire
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really?
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really

what about their dead bodies in the city where our Lord was crucified?
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that would be the siege of jerusalem 1244
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was that the end of christian control?
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yes but not the end of the kingdom of jerusalem
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when did that end?
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with the fall of acre in 1291
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so what is next?
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the two beasts if we go by post #9
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bring on the beasts