Gal 4 condemns all Pagan days Rom 14 defends all Bible holy days

Cribstyl · Jun 27, 2016

1John2:4 said:
Ishmael was also a child of Abraham but he was not the son of the promise. God loved Jacob yet hated Essau, he was also not a son of the promise, yet he is a son on Abraham. The promise came through Jacob (Israel).

What's your point? You're not listening.
Are you still trying to prove that you're the Children of Israel? The promised seed beginning with Abraham could only could come from one of His son's and only one branch of His lineage.
Matt 1 shows us the lineage between Abraham and Jesus.
The promise was: In thy seed all nations would be blessed.
Your argument is about who the promise was with or to whom it was made. That does not erase whom God said would benefit.

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Your argument is blown away by Rom 9:26 because The Children of Israel are not the ones being identified as the Children of God.

1John2:4 · Jun 27, 2016

Cribstyl said:
What's your point? You're not listening.
Are you still trying to prove that you're the Children of Israel? The promised seed beginning with Abraham could only could come from one of His son's and only one branch of His lineage.
Matt 1 shows us the lineage between Abraham and Jesus.
The promise was: In thy seed all nations would be blessed.
Your argument is about who the promise was with or to whom it was made. That does not erase whom God said would benefit.

Rom 9:7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
Rom 9:26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.

Your argument is blown away by Rom 9:26 because The Children of Israel are not the ones being identified as the Children of God.

Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—Jer 31:31

Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— Hebrews 8:8 Which one are you? House of Judah or House of Israel , I don't see a house of Gentile.

[ The Restoration of Israel ] “Yet the number of the children of Israel Shall be as the sand of the sea, Which cannot be measured or numbered. And it shall come to pass In the place where it was said to them, ‘You are not My people,’ There it shall be said to them, ‘You are sons of the living God.’ Hosea 1:10 Paul is quoting this in Romans 9:26

You are the one not listening my friend, Gentiles are grafted in to Israel, your prof text is confusing when you look at the whole Word of God, it does not line up with prophecy. We must consider the Word of God in its entirety instead of taking sound bites out of the New Testament to prove our theology.

BobRyan · Jun 27, 2016

1John2:4 said:
Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah—Jer 31:31

Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— Hebrews 8:8 Which one are you? House of Judah or House of Israel , I don't see a house of Gentile.
.

To solve that issue while still embracing war against the Law of God - some then argue that they are not under the New Covenant --

By contrast Romans 2 and Romans 9 make it clear "he is not a JEW who is one outwardly" -

And thus the New Covenant with the "LAW written on the heart and mind" is for the NT saints - not just the OT saints.

And in the NT we have this -

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and His Commandments are not grievous.

BobRyan · Jun 27, 2016

BobRyan said:
But I did know this --

The Bible Sabbath is the 7th day of the week "but the 7th day is the Sabbath of the LORD thy God".

Christ came as part of the New Covenant promise that He gave - The NEW Covenant made with "The house of Israel and the house of Judah" Hebrews 8:8-10.

"God so loved the WORLD that He gave... that whoseover believes on him might not perish" for "God is not willing that any should perish".

Jesus came first to literal Israel because they were supposed to be the evangelists proclaiming the mission and message of the Messiah.

Christ's ideal for the world is "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

Just as we see in the OT "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

How nice then in Romans 2 and in Romans 9 we have "he is not a Jew who is one outwardly - but he is a Jew who is one inwardly"

bugkiller said:
Did you say God so loved the world? How does the world equate to Israel only?
bugkiller

In the Romans 2 and Romans 9 model the Jew who lives at war with the LAW of God is counted as a gentile - and the gentile living in harmony with the law of God - having the law written on the heart and mind - is counted as a Jew.

God so loved the World -- then is God so loving the lost - the gentile - and adopting them - when they accept the Gospel - as "Children of Abraham" - Romans 4 - the father of the faithful.

Christ's ideal for the world is "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

Just as we see in the OT "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship

bugkiller · Jun 27, 2016

1John2:4 said:
I am aware of what grafting in is, my family owns a pecan farm and the trees are grafted. They are grafted because having the
original stock gives strength to the shoot that is grafted in. It helps to prevent against illness. You could say that the original teachings (root) protect against idolatry (illness). The Gentiles are the ones grafted in I'm sorry if you are unable to understand that, it is pretty clear in the passage.

You posted this here it is again, maybe this will help. "For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature wild olive tree (gentiles), and wert grafted contrary to nature into a good olive tree (Israel): how much more shall these, which be the natural branches (Israel), be grafted into their own olive tree (Israel)?"

OK. What is the grafting done into? Is it not the root stock? You seem to insist that the Christian is graft into some branch. A root stock isn't a tree. Your insistence is the wild branch becomes tame (the same as the root stock). What value is the grafting then if it just becomes the same? The wild branch takes its life from the root stock in this case Jesus opposed to Israel.

Its very interesting to me that even a believing Jew (Israeli) must also be graft into the root stock (good olive tree, which shows a difference). They aren't graft back into the same tree (root stock).

bugkiller

bugkiller · Jun 27, 2016

BobRyan said:
To solve that issue while still embracing war against the Law of God - some then argue that they are not under the New Covenant --

By contrast Romans 2 and Romans 9 make it clear "he is not a JEW who is one outwardly" -

This in no way implies a Gentile becomes a Jew which is necessary to force your false teaching.

And thus the New Covenant with the "LAW written on the heart and mind" is for the NT saints - not just the OT saints.

This throws out 2/3 of the sentence which plainly shows its not the law given at Sinai.

And in the NT we have this -

1 John 5
2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and His Commandments are not grievous.

Do you see a 10 in front of commandments? What does v 23 say are the commandments?

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Jun 27, 2016

BobRyan said:
How nice then in Romans 2 and in Romans 9 we have "he is not a Jew who is one outwardly - but he is a Jew who is one inwardly"

I just responded to this statement a few moments ago in this thread. So why are you posing the same thing?

In the Romans 2 and Romans 9 model the Jew who lives at war with the LAW of God is counted as a gentile - and the gentile living in harmony with the law of God - having the law written on the heart and mind - is counted as a Jew.

No sir. If what you pose is true then my unregenerate neighbor is a Christian.

God so loved the World -- then is God so loving the lost - the gentile - and adopting them - when they accept the Gospel - as "Children of Abraham" - Romans 4 - the father of the faithful.

As children of who, do you say - Abraham. Abraham isn't and never was a Jew.

Christ's ideal for the world is "The Sabbath was made for MANKIND" Mark 2:27

Sorry but that's not what the text says. The reason is because you refuse to consider the context. Jesus was speaking directly and exclusively to Jews (Israeli). Why yes I understand your argument there were gentiles in the group. Jesus wasn't having a conversation with gentiles.

Just as we see in the OT "From Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship

You also refuse to accept what this partial quote says. I find no word "on" in your quote. Therefore its also taken out of context to imply something it doesn't say.

bugkiller

BobRyan · Jun 27, 2016

bugkiller said:
This in no way implies a Gentile becomes a Jew which is necessary to force your false teaching.

Not at all - the clear Bible teaching is that the Gentiles that obey the Law are counted as Jews.

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

obeying God's Word rather than being in rebellion against it - is what determines who is the spiritual "Jew" to which the Jer 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:6-10 NEW Covenant applies.

This throws out 2/3 of the sentence which plainly shows its not the law given at Sinai.

Just not in real life.

In real life we have james 2 quoting the Sinai Law.
We have Christ in Matt 19 - quoting the Sinai Law.

In Rom 13 - Paul quotes - the Sinai Law.

In Heb 8:6-10 we are told that it is Christ that gave us the Sinai Moral LAW.

Affirmed even by the Baptist Confession of Faith - and the Westminster Confession of Faith.

23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
bugkiller

We show our love - by Keeping God's commandments - we do not "Show our Love by showing our Love" in the true circular argument some have proposed.

1 John 5
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

bugkiller · Jun 27, 2016

BobRyan said:
Not at all - the clear Bible teaching is that the Gentiles that obey the Law are counted as Jews.

Rom 2
25 For indeed circumcision is of value if you practice the Law; but if you are a transgressor of the Law, your circumcision has become uncircumcision. 26 So if the uncircumcised man keeps the requirements of the Law, will not his uncircumcision be regarded as circumcision? 27 And he who is physically uncircumcised, if he keeps the Law, will he not judge you who though having the letter of the Law and circumcision are a transgressor of the Law? 28 For he is not a Jew who is one outwardly, nor is circumcision that which is outward in the flesh. 29 But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

Unless a male is physically circumcised he's not keeping the law nor is he obligated to it.

obeying God's Word rather than being in rebellion against it - is what determines who is the spiritual "Jew" to which the Jer 31:31-33 and Hebrews 8:6-10 NEW Covenant applies.

There's no such thing as a spiritual Jew. This is making up stuff so you can obligate unsuspecting Christians to forsake grace for the law to possess salvation.

Just not in real life.

In real life we have james 2 quoting the Sinai Law.

So what.

We have Christ in Matt 19 - quoting the Sinai Law.

So what.

In Rom 13 - Paul quotes - the Sinai Law.

So what.

In Heb 8:6-10 we are told that it is Christ that gave us the Sinai Moral LAW.

No we're not.

Affirmed even by the Baptist Confession of Faith - and the Westminster Confession of Faith.

Who cares what you think they say?

We show our love - by Keeping God's commandments - we do not "Show our Love by showing our Love" in the true circular argument some have proposed.

1 John 5
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world; and this is the victory that has overcome the world—our faith.

Nothing but a misrepresentation of the Scripture.

bugkiller

BobRyan · Jan 28, 2017

Some great Bible texts not to be ignored

BobRyan said:
in Gal 4 - as others point out - there are days that are condemned entirely. And the text shows us that it is the pagan days that are condemned.
-----------------------------------------------------------------
Gal 4 - Paul condemns them for observing even ONE of the pagan days.

7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.

(Pagans in Galatia who worshiped false god before becoming Christian)

8 However at that time, when you did not know God, you were slaves to those which by nature are no gods. 9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how is it that you turn back again to the weak and worthless elemental things, to which you desire to be enslaved all over again? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I fear for you, that perhaps I have labored over you in vain.

============================================

By contrast in Rom 14 - Christians are to be condemned IF they judge or condemn anyone for observing even ONE of the Bible Holy days - of Lev 23.

To "esteem the day" is to "Observe" the day in Rom 14

Romans 14
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;...

10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
Just when you want to condemn all Christians that remember to keep God's 4th commandment using Gal 4 that condemns only pagan days - Paul says that there is not even one of the Bible holy days that you may condemn others for keeping, much less condemning those who choose to honor God's 4th commandment.

====================================================
So then ALL pagan days condemned in Gal 4.

All Bible holy days defended in Romans 14.

These two chapters cannot be bent and edited as if they mean to condemn all observance of the Bible approved days in Gal 4 and defend all observance of pagan days in Rom 14.

No efforts to get these texts to oppose each other or to stand on their heads - have worked to this point.

stenerson said:
I grew up and was raised 3rd generation Seventh Day Adventist.
They use the exact same reasoning and argumentation used
by Sunday Sabbatarians. They actually IMO make a better case for
Saturday Sabbath worship when following this logic or this hermeneutic.
I believe they are both wrong.

Still - 1 Cor 7:19 and Ephesians 6:2 are pretty hard to ignore ... no wonder we have Revelation 14:12 - just as it reads.

another one of my favorites - Isaiah 66:23 "from Sabbath to Sabbath shall ALL MANKIND come before Me to worship"

BobRyan · Feb 24, 2017

Is Deuteronomy part of the law?

Certainly for we have Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" also quoted by Christ in Matthew 22 as one of the two great Commandments.

As Mark 7:6-13 says "Law of God" = "Word of God" and also = "Moses said"

BobRyan · Feb 24, 2017

That is correct. Is the law the Gospel? NOPE! What are you trying to say here with John 3?The pro grace people do not seek righteousness by the law (self righteousness by which no one can be saved).

1 John 3:4 - "SIN IS transgression of the LAW" both in OT and also by NT standards

The point is that "the definition" of "what sin is" remains the same .. in both OT and NT

BobRyan · Feb 24, 2017

The Christian is not subject to the law because of the new covenant.

The NEW Covenant says it "Writes the LAW of God on the heart and mind" Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:6-10.

The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

Paul says the 5th commandment continues to apply to saints in Ephesians 6:2 for it is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that unit of TEN.

Paul says that we "ESTABLISH the LAW" by our faith in Romans 3:31 instead of abolishing it.

As a result (and as I have said before) - I find your logic illusive just then as a response to these often repeated facts of scripture..

Condemnation of the law does not exist without being subject to the law.

That is true - and as we see in Romans 2:19-20 the Law condemns the entire world. "every mouth closed" -- even after the cross. So that all "need the Gospel"

bugkiller · Feb 24, 2017

BobRyan said:
Certainly for we have Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart" also quoted by Christ in Matthew 22 as one of the two great Commandments.

Great! Now when a re you going to acknowledge the truth of Deut 4:13 and 5:3?

The mere quoting of something is miles away from requiring something. Jesus was asked a question about the law. Jesus was not teaching anyone to keep the law in Mar 22.

As Mark 7:6-13 says "Law of God" = "Word of God" and also = "Moses said"

Just can not stay away from trying to condemn others, can you?

bugkiller

bugkiller · Feb 24, 2017

BobRyan said:
The point is that "the definition" of "what sin is" remains the same .. in both OT and NT

That simply can not be true because sin was before the law (Rom 5:13) and is the reason for the law (Gal 3:19).

Another reason for the law is Rom 7:13. Rom 4:15 is yet another. Also love Rom 11:32.

bugkiller

bugkiller · Feb 24, 2017

BobRyan said:
The NEW Covenant says it "Writes the LAW of God on the heart and mind" Jeremiah 31:31-33, Hebrews 8:6-10.

Thisl aw written ont he heart is not like the law written on stone. Neither passage you cite has anything to do with movement. Both are about content. In fact Heb 8:6 says "better covenant" based on "better promises." The NC is not about law.

The saints "KEEP the Commandments of God AND their faith in Jesus" Rev 14:12

I do not believe you understand this verse and ignore the same author's words of I Jn 3:23. The faith of Jesus is not the practice of any religious pomp.

Paul says the 5th commandment continues to apply to saints in Ephesians 6:2 for it is the "FIRST commandment with a promise" in that unit of TEN.

Indeed he does. You try to promote the 10 Cs as a requirement for proving righteousness against Rom 4. Your Paul is a complete idiot.

Paul says that we "ESTABLISH the LAW" by our faith in Romans 3:31 instead of abolishing it.

This statement is nothing more than acknowledgement of the law. It simply is not requiring the keeping of the law. See Gal 3:19; 4:21-31 and II Cor 3:6-11.

As a result (and as I have said before) - I find your logic illusive just then as a response to these often repeated facts of scripture..

I sure do not understand in light of the references I have made in this post.

That is true - and as we see in Romans 2:19-20 the Law condemns the entire world. "every mouth closed" -- even after the cross. So that all "need the Gospel"

So it does. Now where does your reference require the keeping of the law?

bugkiller

BobRyan · Mar 19, 2017

Perfect summation of how Gal 4 and Romans 14 clarify the point of condemning pagan holy days and affirming Bible holy days.

BobRyan said:
observing Bible holy days is always blessed and protected in scripture.

Romans 14
5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;...

10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Just when some may want to condemn all Christians that remember to keep God's 4th commandment using Gal 4 that condemns only pagan days - Paul says that there is not even one of the Bible holy days that you may condemn others for keeping, much less condemning those who choose to honor God's 4th commandment.

So then ALL pagan days condemned in Gal 4.

All Bible holy days defended in Romans 14.

These two chapters cannot be bent and edited as if they mean to condemn all observance of the Bible approved days in Gal 4 and defend all observance of pagan days in Rom 14.

No efforts to get these texts to oppose each other or to stand on their heads - have worked to this point.

Notice that the quote above from Rom 14 is not talking about the right to observe pagan days.

====================

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;...

10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.
-- that applies only to Bible approved days - those in the actual word of God. We may not condemn those who observe them all or one of them above the others.

By contrast Paul DOES condemn observance of even ONE pagan day in Gal 4.
A contrast that works against the efforts to condemn God's 4th commandment Sabbath.

bugkiller · Mar 21, 2017

BobRyan said:
Perfect summation of how Gal 4 and Romans 14 clarify the point of condemning pagan holy days and affirming Bible holy days.

Already responded to that a long time ago.

bugkiller

BobRyan · Mar 27, 2017

bugkiller said:
Already responded to that a long time ago.

bugkiller

It is good to hear that you finally answered a question of mine. Thanks!

Was it a "good answer" in your POV?

Have you changed your thinking on that since then or does it remain the same?

Goodbook · Mar 30, 2017

Hmm always thought Galatians 4 was talking to lawkeepers because the whole chapter is referrring to those under the law...and then about Hagar who was a bondwoman not sarah who was free. Hagar was an egyptian maid. But she was in service to sarah and abraham. Was she observing days and times? Remember sarah and abraham were before Moses...abraham was a man of faith he was never taught any kind of law that came before even the ten commandments. The ten commandments and all the rest were for the israelites to learn as a schoolmaster to bring them to Christ. But those that already had faith...did not need to be under the mosaic law as they were already keeping trust in God with their hearts. Does this make sense?

Can you give some specific examples of pagan holy days that are condemned in the bible? I did not know that pagans even had holy days!!! There cant be any such thing as pagans arent by nature 'holy' I do know that God was tired of the israelites observing his own feasts and not Himself at several points and got Prophets to speak about that.

Gal 4 condemns all Pagan days Rom 14 defends all Bible holy days

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