Gal 4 condemns all Pagan days Rom 14 defends all Bible holy days

[BobRyan]

Since this point comes up often - I am giving it - its own thread for discussion.


===========================================

I promote the Gen 2:3 7th day made holy and blessed by God as He stated in Ex 20:11

But in Gal 4 - as others point out - there are days that are condemned entirely. And the text shows us that it is the pagan days that are condemned.
------------------------------------------------------------------

No way is Galatians 4 talking about pagan days. .

Until you read Galatians 4.

7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.


(Pagans in Galatia who worshiped false god before becoming Christian)

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

By contrast observing Bible holy days is always blessed and protected in scripture.

Romans 14

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;...

10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

Just when you want to condemn all Christians that remember to keep God's 4th commandment using Gal 4 that condemns only pagan days - Paul says that there is not even one of the Bible holy days that you may condemn others for keeping, much less condemning those who choose to honor God's 4th commandment.

So then ALL pagan days condemned in Gal 4.

All Bible holy days defended in Romans 14.

These two chapters cannot be bent and edited as if they mean to condemn all observance of the Bible approved days in Gal 4 and defend all observance of pagan days in Rom 14.

No efforts to get these texts to oppose each other or to stand on their heads - have worked to this point.

Paul also says let no one condemn you for not observing religious days.
.

Notice that the quote above from Rom 14 is not talking about the right to observe pagan days.

====================

5 One person esteems one day above another; another esteems every day. Let each be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who observes the day, observes it to the Lord;...

10 But why do you judge your brother? Or why do you show contempt for your brother? For we shall all stand before the judgment seat of Christ.

-- that applies only to Bible approved days - those in the actual word of God. We may not condemn those who observe them all or one of them above the others.

By contrast Paul DOES condemn observance of even ONE pagan day in Gal 4.

A contrast that works against the efforts to condemn God's 4th commandment Sabbath.

in Christ,

Bob

 

[Steve Petersen]

I would encourage you to read tractate Avodah Zarah from the Mishnah. You will see that Romans 14 seems to be dealing with this same topic.

 

[from scratch]

Since this point comes up often - I am giving it - its own thread for discussion.


===========================================

I promote the Gen 2:3 7th day made holy and blessed by God as He stated in Ex 20:11

But in Gal 4 - as others point out - there are days that are condemned entirely. And the text shows us that it is the pagan days that are condemned.
------------------------------------------------------------------



Until you read Galatians 4.



By contrast observing Bible holy days is always blessed and protected in scripture.

Romans 14


Just when you want to condemn all Christians that remember to keep God's 4th commandment using Gal 4 that condemns only pagan days - Paul says that there is not even one of the Bible holy days that you may condemn others for keeping, much less condemning those who choose to honor God's 4th commandment.

So then ALL pagan days condemned in Gal 4.

All Bible holy days defended in Romans 14.

These two chapters cannot be bent and edited as if they mean to condemn all observance of the Bible approved days in Gal 4 and defend all observance of pagan days in Rom 14.

No efforts to get these texts to oppose each other or to stand on their heads - have worked to this point.



Notice that the quote above from Rom 14 is not talking about the right to observe pagan days.

====================



-- that applies only to Bible approved days - those in the actual word of God. We may not condemn those who observe them all or one of them above the others.

By contrast Paul DOES condemn observance of even ONE pagan day in Gal 4.

A contrast that works against the efforts to condemn God's 4th commandment Sabbath.

in Christ,

Bob

Please quote the post in which I condemn anyone for keeping the Sabbath or some amended version there of.

Given the whole of Galatians there is absolutely no foundation to support Paul in the middle of his statement against the law as a requirement for Christians to insert something about pagan worship or their days. Paul is clearly addressing the problem caused by the Judaizers trying to get Christians to follow the law. The mind of the Jew is one can't be a follower of God without following the law and deny salvation unless one does.

 

[BobRyan]

I would encourage you to read tractate Avodah Zarah from the Mishnah. You will see that Romans 14 seems to be dealing with this same topic.

Do you believe that Romans 14 is defending the observance of pagan holy days??

 

[BobRyan]

Paul condemns any observance at all of even one pagan holy day in Gal 4.

Paul defends all observance of any Bible holy day as we find them in Lev 23 --- in Romans 14.

Those who try to get Gal 4 to condemn the Bible Sabbath -- are using a text that condemns paganism and trying to apply it to the Bible - in a way that Romans 14 absolutely forbids.

Please quote the post in which I condemn anyone for keeping the Sabbath

Interesting claim.

Given the whole of Galatians there is absolutely no foundation to support Paul in the middle of his statement against the law as a requirement for Christians to insert something about pagan worship or their days.

Until you read Gal 4:7, 9-11 regarding worship of false gods which are by nature "no gods at all" -- and the fact that the Galatians were in fact former pagans turned Christian.

7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.


(Pagans in Galatia who worshiped false god before becoming Christian)

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

 

[from scratch]

Paul condemns any observance at all of even one pagan holy day in Gal 4.

Paul defends all observance of any Bible holy day as we find them in Lev 23 --- in Romans 14.

Those who try to get Gal 4 to condemn the Bible Sabbath -- are using a text that condemns paganism and trying to apply it to the Bible - in a way that Romans 14 absolutely forbids.



Interesting claim.





Until you read Gal 4:7, 9-11 regarding worship of false gods which are by nature "no gods at all" -- and the fact that the Galatians were in fact former pagans turned Christian.

7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.


(Pagans in Galatia who worshiped false god before becoming Christian)

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

OK you claim Paul is promoting Judaism and is against paganism. I'd agree that Paul is also against paganism. This is bugger king, have it your way as long as its flame broiled.

 

[Frogster]

Since this point comes up often - I am giving it - its own thread for discussion.


===========================================

I promote the Gen 2:3 7th day made holy and blessed by God as He stated in Ex 20:11

But in Gal 4 - as others point out - there are days that are condemned entirely. And the text shows us that it is the pagan days that are condemned.
------------------------------------------------------------------



Until you read Galatians 4.



By contrast observing Bible holy days is always blessed and protected in scripture.

Romans 14


Just when you want to condemn all Christians that remember to keep God's 4th commandment using Gal 4 that condemns only pagan days - Paul says that there is not even one of the Bible holy days that you may condemn others for keeping, much less condemning those who choose to honor God's 4th commandment.

So then ALL pagan days condemned in Gal 4.

All Bible holy days defended in Romans 14.

These two chapters cannot be bent and edited as if they mean to condemn all observance of the Bible approved days in Gal 4 and defend all observance of pagan days in Rom 14.

No efforts to get these texts to oppose each other or to stand on their heads - have worked to this point.



Notice that the quote above from Rom 14 is not talking about the right to observe pagan days.

====================



-- that applies only to Bible approved days - those in the actual word of God. We may not condemn those who observe them all or one of them above the others.

By contrast Paul DOES condemn observance of even ONE pagan day in Gal 4.

A contrast that works against the efforts to condemn God's 4th commandment Sabbath.

in Christ,

Bob

Why does Paul say the Jews "we" were under stoicheion, the same word used for the pagans in 4:9?



4:3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world.




9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?


Simple answer, the pagans were under a ritualistic religion before conversion, now they were turning back to another ritualistic religion, only this time the stoicheion was Judaism. Elementals, crude notions, the abc's..kind of things.

 

[stenerson]

Simple answer, the pagans were under a ritualistic religion before conversion, now they were turning back to another ritualistic religion, only this time the stoicheion was Judaism. Elementals, crude notions, the abc's..kind of things.

Yep! Anyone Christian that reverts to 1st covenant Judaism or Mosaic Law is under the curse and might as well return to Paganism.

 

[RDKirk]

Simple answer, the pagans were under a ritualistic religion before conversion, now they were turning back to another ritualistic religion, only this time the stoicheion was Judaism. Elementals, crude notions, the abc's..kind of things.

Yes.

The Mosaic Covenant has both spiritual and material components. Judaism as it was practiced tended to rely on only the material component, and for those Christians under grace, it would have been only the material component that they practiced. If one is already saved, what can be the further effect of circumcision?

It would have been a useless practice for them. Thus, no more Godly than what they practiced as pagans. Actually, Paul argues that it would be worse than useless, but actually counter-faith.

 

[from scratch]

Since this point comes up often - I am giving it - its own thread for discussion.


===========================================

I promote the Gen 2:3 7th day made holy and blessed by God as He stated in Ex 20:11

But in Gal 4 - as others point out - there are days that are condemned entirely. And the text shows us that it is the pagan days that are condemned.
------------------------------------------------------------------



Until you read Galatians 4.



By contrast observing Bible holy days is always blessed and protected in scripture.

Romans 14


Just when you want to condemn all Christians that remember to keep God's 4th commandment using Gal 4 that condemns only pagan days - Paul says that there is not even one of the Bible holy days that you may condemn others for keeping, much less condemning those who choose to honor God's 4th commandment.

So then ALL pagan days condemned in Gal 4.

All Bible holy days defended in Romans 14.

These two chapters cannot be bent and edited as if they mean to condemn all observance of the Bible approved days in Gal 4 and defend all observance of pagan days in Rom 14.

No efforts to get these texts to oppose each other or to stand on their heads - have worked to this point.



Notice that the quote above from Rom 14 is not talking about the right to observe pagan days.

====================



-- that applies only to Bible approved days - those in the actual word of God. We may not condemn those who observe them all or one of them above the others.

By contrast Paul DOES condemn observance of even ONE pagan day in Gal 4.

A contrast that works against the efforts to condemn God's 4th commandment Sabbath.

in Christ,

Bob

Paganism isn't what Paul is talking about. The whole book of Galatian is as you'd say antinomian, that is against the promoters of keeping the law. If you wish to say its about paganism Paul is clearly calling Judaism pagan as he includes all religious days.

While Romans 14 doesn't promote any religious holy days.

 

[from scratch]

Paul condemns any observance at all of even one pagan holy day in Gal 4.

Paul defends all observance of any Bible holy day as we find them in Lev 23 --- in Romans 14.

Those who try to get Gal 4 to condemn the Bible Sabbath -- are using a text that condemns paganism and trying to apply it to the Bible - in a way that Romans 14 absolutely forbids.

These statements are nothing more than personal opinion based on a false prophet for profit.

Interesting claim.

Thank you. Its well and soundly based on the Bible.

Until you read Gal 4:7, 9-11 regarding worship of false gods which are by nature "no gods at all" -- and the fact that the Galatians were in fact former pagans turned Christian.

7 Therefore you are no longer a slave but a son, and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ. 8 But then, indeed, when you did not know God, you served those which by nature are not gods.

(Pagans in Galatia who worshiped false god before becoming Christian)

9 But now after you have known God, or rather are known by God, how is it that you turn again to the weak and beggarly elements, to which you desire again to be in bondage? 10 You observe days and months and seasons and years. 11 I am afraid for you, lest I have labored for you in vain.

The issue is Paul showing obligation to something other than the Gospel of full grace. Paul isn't trying to force out paganism and replace it with the law or Judaism.

 

[from scratch]

Why does Paul say the Jews "we" were under stoicheion, the same word used for the pagans in 4:9?



4:3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world.




9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?


Simple answer, the pagans were under a ritualistic religion before conversion, now they were turning back to another ritualistic religion, only this time the stoicheion was Judaism. Elementals, crude notions, the abc's..kind of things.

Exactly! Religion stinks! Its about a personal relationship with God the Father, Jesus the Christ-God the Son and the God the Holy Spirit.

Nice to see ya BTW.

 

[from scratch]

Yep! Anyone Christian that reverts to 1st covenant Judaism or Mosaic Law is under the curse and might as well return to Paganism.

Yep both leave out Jesus our Savior.

 

[WailingWall]

Paul condemns any observance at all of even one pagan holy day in Gal 4.

Hey Bob, this is what i found concerning Gal.4

GAL.4 [8] Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.[9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?[10] YE OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS.[11] I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Galatians 4 says nothing about sabbaths or feast days. Its speaking of those who observe times. Not sure if its pagan days as you stated


DEUT.18 [9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, OR AN OBSERVER OF TIMES, or an enchanter, or a witch,[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

The same thing goes on to this very day. Its speaking of the occult. Those who observe certain days by use of horoscopes? I suppose they could be called pagan days


2 CHR.33 [3] For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.[4] Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever.[5] And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.[6] And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: ALSO HE OBSERVED TIMES, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger

Enchantments, witchcraft, familiar spirits, and wizards. Its speaking of the occult. Not following sabbath days.

LEV.19 [26] Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, NOR OBSERVE TIMES.[27] Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.[28] Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.[29] Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a harlot; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.[30] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

I guess this scripture says it all. You shall not observe times BUT you will keep my sabbaths.

 

[from scratch]

Hey Bob, this is what i found concerning Gal.4

GAL.4 [8] Howbeit then, when ye knew not God, ye did service unto them which by nature are no gods.[9] But now, after that ye have known God, or rather are known of God, how turn ye again to the weak and beggarly elements, whereunto ye desire again to be in bondage?[10] YE OBSERVE DAYS, AND MONTHS, AND TIMES, AND YEARS.[11] I am afraid of you, lest I have bestowed upon you labour in vain.

Galatians 4 says nothing about sabbaths or feast days. Its speaking of those who observe times. Not sure if its pagan days as you stated

Then I assume you contend Paul is telling them to observe Jewish days. Please explain how when Paul says to throw out the law in the same chapter.

DEUT.18 [9] When thou art come into the land which the LORD thy God giveth thee, thou shalt not learn to do after the abominations of those nations.[10] There shall not be found among you any one that maketh his son or his daughter to pass through the fire, or that useth divination, OR AN OBSERVER OF TIMES, or an enchanter, or a witch,[11] Or a charmer, or a consulter with familiar spirits, or a wizard, or a necromancer.

The same thing goes on to this very day. Its speaking of the occult. Those who observe certain days by use of horoscopes? I suppose they could be called pagan days


2 CHR.33 [3] For he built again the high places which Hezekiah his father had broken down, and he reared up altars for Baalim, and made groves, and worshipped all the host of heaven, and served them.[4] Also he built altars in the house of the LORD, whereof the LORD had said, In Jerusalem shall my name be for ever.[5] And he built altars for all the host of heaven in the two courts of the house of the LORD.[6] And he caused his children to pass through the fire in the valley of the son of Hinnom: ALSO HE OBSERVED TIMES, and used enchantments, and used witchcraft, and dealt with a familiar spirit, and with wizards: he wrought much evil in the sight of the LORD, to provoke him to anger

Enchantments, witchcraft, familiar spirits, and wizards. Its speaking of the occult. Not following sabbath days.

LEV.19 [26] Ye shall not eat any thing with the blood: neither shall ye use enchantment, NOR OBSERVE TIMES.[27] Ye shall not round the corners of your heads, neither shalt thou mar the corners of thy beard.[28] Ye shall not make any cuttings in your flesh for the dead, nor print any marks upon you: I am the LORD.[29] Do not prostitute thy daughter, to cause her to be a harlot; lest the land fall to whoredom, and the land become full of wickedness.[30] YE SHALL KEEP MY SABBATHS, and reverence my sanctuary: I am the LORD.

I guess this scripture says it all. You shall not observe times BUT you will keep my sabbaths.

we don't have to shave and we must become vegetarians. I'm for the rest of the passage too!

 

[JohnRabbit]

Why does Paul say the Jews "we" were under stoicheion, the same word used for the pagans in 4:9?



4:3 In the same way we also, when we were children, were enslaved to the elementary principles of the world.




9 But now that you have come to know God, or rather to be known by God, how can you turn back again to the weak and worthless elementary principles of the world, whose slaves you want to be once more?


Simple answer, the pagans were under a ritualistic religion before conversion, now they were turning back to another ritualistic religion, only this time the stoicheion was Judaism. Elementals, crude notions, the abc's..kind of things.

Yep! Anyone Christian that reverts to 1st covenant Judaism or Mosaic Law is under the curse and might as well return to Paganism.

it's amazing that you both can read, but not comprehend!

tell me what "elemental principle of the world" has God ever given to anyone!?


what God gave to the Israelites was from God not "of the world"!




so yeah, way to go equating what God gave to something that's "of the world"!

 

[JohnRabbit]

Since this point comes up often - I am giving it - its own thread for discussion.


===========================================

I promote the Gen 2:3 7th day made holy and blessed by God as He stated in Ex 20:11

But in Gal 4 - as others point out - there are days that are condemned entirely. And the text shows us that it is the pagan days that are condemned.
------------------------------------------------------------------



Until you read Galatians 4.



By contrast observing Bible holy days is always blessed and protected in scripture.

Romans 14


Just when you want to condemn all Christians that remember to keep God's 4th commandment using Gal 4 that condemns only pagan days - Paul says that there is not even one of the Bible holy days that you may condemn others for keeping, much less condemning those who choose to honor God's 4th commandment.

So then ALL pagan days condemned in Gal 4.

All Bible holy days defended in Romans 14.

These two chapters cannot be bent and edited as if they mean to condemn all observance of the Bible approved days in Gal 4 and defend all observance of pagan days in Rom 14.

No efforts to get these texts to oppose each other or to stand on their heads - have worked to this point.



Notice that the quote above from Rom 14 is not talking about the right to observe pagan days.

====================



-- that applies only to Bible approved days - those in the actual word of God. We may not condemn those who observe them all or one of them above the others.

By contrast Paul DOES condemn observance of even ONE pagan day in Gal 4.

A contrast that works against the efforts to condemn God's 4th commandment Sabbath.

in Christ,

Bob

well written!


it's a shame that the "law haters" don't get it!

 

[RDKirk]

"Don't cut the corners of your beards."
"Circumcise your male babies on the eighth day."

There is nothing spiritual about those kinds of things. Those are "elementary" principles. Yes, God gave the Israelites a host of elementary principles to set them apart from the Canaanites and others.

God does not give us such elementary principles. Our principles are spiritual, and where they are material, it is in those areas that the material affects the spiritual.

That is why Paul can say there is no direct harm per se in eating meat that had been dedicated to idols because idols are nothing spiritual and that "dedication" did nothing to the meat. Where there could be harm is in eating in a way that damages the faith of another--which is a spiritual harm, not inherent in the meat itself.

Christians are called to be a "peculiar people" but the principles of our peculiarity is not in how we cut our beards or the foods we eat. There are pagans who are just as peculiar in those same kinds of principles. Our peculiarity is in our love for one another that stretches across normal human boundaries of race or ethnicity or nationality.

 

[stenerson]

"Don't cut the corners of your beards."
"Circumcise your male babies on the eighth day."

There is nothing spiritual about those kinds of things. Those are "elementary" principles. Yes, God gave the Israelites a host of elementary principles to set them apart from the Canaanites and others.

God does not give us such elementary principles. Our principles are spiritual, and where they are material, it is in those areas that the material affects the spiritual.

That is why Paul can say there is no direct harm per se in eating meat that had been dedicated to idols because idols are nothing spiritual and that "dedication" did nothing to the meat. Where there could be harm is in eating in a way that damages the faith of another--which is a spiritual harm, not inherent in the meat itself.

Christians are called to be a "peculiar people" but the principles of our peculiarity is not in how we cut our beards or the foods we eat. There are pagans who are just as peculiar in those same kinds of principles. Our peculiarity is in our love for one another that stretches across normal human boundaries of race or ethnicity or nationality.

Yep. Paul also describes much of the Law that God Himself gave to Israel as containing "carnal ordinances."

 

[Steve Petersen]

Yep. Paul also describes much of the Law that God Himself gave to Israel as containing "carnal ordinances."

Ordinances regarding your body and life in this world. Washings, etc.