Praying to Mary???? or

stuart lawrence said:

Safe to say Paul did not believe such a thing, therefore he cannot have been such a witness as to what you describe.
Shortly before he died, and while a prisoner he wrote:

Their teaching will spread like gangrene. Among them are Hymaneus and Philetus who have wandered away from the truth. They say that the resurrection has already taken place and they destroy the faith of some
2Tim2:17&18

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Paul was not speaking of the assumption or translation of Mary. He was talking about the heretical idea that the general resurrection had already happened, or in other words, full preterism.

FireDragon76 said:

Paul was not speaking of the assumption or translation of Mary. He was talking about the heretical idea that the general resurrection had already happened, or in other words, full preterism.

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There are two resurrections, neither of which has yet taken place.
The first, for a select number who come out of the great tribulation, the second, or general resuurection 1,000 years later. This resurrection is on the last day of this present earth

gym_class_hero said:

their rules and practices change all the time. For instance, in the 60s Mass was performed in Latin.

When did we start celebrating Mass in Latin?

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That's not dogma.

The Church has the authority to bind and loose, ie. make rules.

For example, the celibate priesthood is a discipline, not a dogma. It is possible for a married man to be a priest. However, it is dogma that only men can be priests because Jesus was a man. This will never change.

Mass has been celebrated in many languages for centuries. Many Eastern Rite Catholic Church's still pray the mass in Aramaic, for example.

MostRadicalManEver said:

I believe we ask the Father now...
Joh 16:23-24 And in that day ye shall ask me nothing. Verily, verily, I say unto you, Whatsoever ye shall ask the Father in my name, he will give it you. (24) Hitherto have ye asked nothing in my name: ask, and ye shall receive, that your joy may be full.

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Jesus was speaking to the apostles, ie. Church leaders, in that passage.

I've noticed that many protestants take promises and authority given to Church leaders by Christ and apply them to themselves.

Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me. - John 14:6

I pray to the Father in the name of Jesus. Why go to the Saints or Mary when we have direct access to the Father through the Lord Jesus Christ? Here is an actual prayer that I have posted in the prayer forum just yesterday.

Father, behold, as E = mc2 so we can divide and conclude that all mass (m) is energy (E/c2) and that mass comes from thee, the Father of all light and energy. Father God, you are the one above all, the source of all light and energy. In thee the plasma energy is turned into what mass as you will, and this mass will soon return to the plasma from whence it was forged. I pray that you remember your servants that call upon your name, bless us, and keep us as the apple of the eye.

Behold what manner of things come from your energy and light! All mass, the sun, the stars, the galaxies, the earth, and the moon. You have formed things for your pleasure and will turn the mass into plasma and the plasma into mass as you will. There are also intellectual energy and lights as well as spiritual. We also pray that as you have perfected the spiritual E (energy, motivation, warmth, love) and c2 ( light, faith, hope, charity, joy) that you will also allow it to shine and show forth from your servants in heaven and in earth.

Father we pray for the needs here on the CF. Give people the wisdom, meet the needs, and heal the ailments I pray... And keep us as the apple of the eye. We pray these things in Jesus name... And with our Pentecostal preacher... In his name, we command you to... Loose the people! And let the proper energy and light flow from us uninhibited in Jesus name I pray.

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ETA: The refusal to believe that Mary is the god bearer smacks of Nestorianism too.

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Jesus was 100% God and 100% human, which is part of the mystery of our faith.

Catholics don't have it "wrong" as you claimed, and yes Mary is the mother of God (or Theotokos) because she is the Mother of Jesus, and Jesus is God, so therefore Mary is the Mother of God. It's all logical.
Jesus is the 1 mediator between us and God the Father, but there are countless people who could mediate between us and Jesus, Mary being one of them.

Do not forget that Jesus' first miracle, the wedding at Cana, was due to His mother's request, and He even said "my time has not come." and yet he performed the miracle anyway.

Solomons Porch said:

No no no..... shaking my head
Im no rocket scientist but if you HAIL something isnt that like bowing??

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No; that's how the angel greeted Mary.

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At every mass I have attended we have (all) said the Nicene Creed, which is an affirmation that we believe that Jesus Christ is God himself, and everyone who says it is affirming it or is a bald faced liar.

Solomons Porch said:

I really mean no harm at all in this question, and if I word it wrong I apologize. I pray straight to Jesus. So Ive seen the movies where there are people who go to confession, where they sit in this little booth and tell the (priest/father?) their sins.....does that mean that they think/feel their sins are forgiven once they admit them in this confession booth? I do not know the proper name for it. And I know Mary was the mother of Jesus, but do you pray to her, or pray thru her? And what is the purpose of the Pope?

This is simply because I am interested in understanding. I am a Christian, saved sanctified filled with the Holy Spirit. Blood bought and living for the Lord.

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You generated 118 responses in 13 hours, so you have hit the hot buttons for Christian Forums. I hope some light was shed rather than just heat, but I just don't have the patience to wade through all of the responses. What do they say? tldr?

If you are serious about your quest to understand Catholic teaching you would do well to get yourself a copy of the Catechism of the Catholic Church. It is available in almost all bookstores, even in paperback. You can get a cheap copy at a used bookstore, almost any used bookstore that deals in more than just romance novels. That's where I would start. It will answer a lot of questions you may have. Readily available. Cheap. Definitive although not exhaustive. But watch out. If you do read it with an open mind, it is possible you will become Catholic. If that is impossible for you, please disregard my advice.

Daniel: "Hebrews 12:1-3 should be read in the context of Hebrews chapter 11 aka the faith chapter. It simply means from context the lives of those in Hebrews 11 are a testimony of faith for us to beware of."
I(2 Maccabees 15:12-16)
That is why some of Jesus' supporters speculate that Jesus in the reincarnation of Jeremian (Matthew 16:14).

A post of mine from another thread:

Sword of the Lord said:

The problem with praying to Mary and/or the Saints, to me, is so simple, and the answer is never satisfying.

How can it be that, like God, they can hear every prayer at once, from all around the world? Do you know how many people are praying to Mary at once? Thousands if not millions. And then, of course, some people pray without speaking, which gives Mary and the Saints another divine power: mind reading. There's also another issue: if they intercede on our behalf, they would literally spend all of their time running to Jesus on our behalf, and it seems to me that there wouldn't be enough time to even cover everyone. It's a divine power. It makes no sense.

That answer is always something about how time works differently in heaven, that powers are bestowed on the people in heaven, that things work differently. It's all an assumption. It's not scriptural. Saints do intercede for us; that is scriptural: they pray for us believers on earth. That doesn't mean that they pray for individual people or that they can hear the prayers of individual people. As the Book of Concord says: "They have made them (saints) Gods."

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I do exactly what Scripture says. I call Mary blessed, as she is blessed. I bless her in both knowledge, being that she bore Christ the Lord, and by word, saying the original Hail Mary before Catholicism added an indulgence to it:

Hail Mary, full of grace, the Lord is with thee; blessed art thou amongst women, and blessed is the fruit of thy womb, Jesus Christ. Amen.

The addition of: "Holy Mary, mother of God, pray for us sinners, now and at the hour of our death. Amen." is just that: an addition.

Catholics and Orthodox do not worship Mary or the Saints. They believe that she and they go to Christ personally on our behalf, and that their prayers for us are more worthy and likely to be granted for us. It would be like going to your earthly mother and begging her to ask something of your earthly father because he would either a.) not grant it to you without her or b.) he's more likely to say yes to your mother for you.

Some Catholics do go way too far and border on, if not outrightly so, worshipping Mary, but the Catholic Church teaches this is wrong and it isn't their doctrine.

Solomons Porch said:

You asked about, Praying to Mary?

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May I suggest that she is just as dead as millions of others who have lived in the past. So why pray to a dead person? Jesus is the One who is living and who has power over the grave - Mary has no such power. Pray to Him who is God, rather than to her who is not.

Daniel: "Hebrews 12:1-3 should be read in the context of Hebrews chapter 11 aka the faith chapter. It simply means from context the lives of those in Hebrews 11 are a testimony of faith for us to beware of."

I anticipated your claim in my post and therefore pointed out that the "great cloud of witnesses" does not precede the believers competing in life's spiritual contests, but rather surrounds them (Hebrews 12:1). So this image includeds the deceased saints in chap. 11, but is not restricted to them. Commentators focus on this to establish the imagery of a great arena of spectators who witness the Christian struggles, cheering them on and giving them aid. As I pointed out, "witnesses" in Hebrews includes the nuance "eyewitnesses" and hence spectators.

Let's examine the Jewish background of this biblical concept. Prior to a decisive battle in the Maccabean revolt, Judas Maccabee has a vision of 2 deceased saints, praying--the recent high priest Onias and the prophet Jeremiah. Jeremiah intercedes for victory and the victory is achieved against the odds (2 Maccabees 15:12-16). This intercession of deceased saints influences some of Jesus' admirers to speculate that He is in fact the reincarnation of the prophet Jeremiah (Matthew 16:14). 2 Maccabees is of course part of the Catholic OT,

The continuing engagement of ancient saints with redemptive history is also implied in the return of Moses and Elijah to discuss with Jesus the nature and meaning of His upcoming redemptive work (Luke 9:11).

Let's now expand on the reasons why petitionary prayer should be addressed to Jesus. Jesus offered the Lord's Prayer as our model and this prayer begins not with "Dear Jesus," but "Our Father." Then at the Last Supper, Jesus expands on His role as mediator by insisting that we pray not to Jesus, but to the Father in Jesus' name (John 16:23), by implication thus acknowledging Jesus' role as our mediator, i. e., as our means of access to the Father. We offer Jesus' our worship, praise, and thanksgiving, but we offer our petitions to the Father.

The later formulation of the Trinity doctrine does not change Jesus' teaching! True, Jesus said, "The Father and I are one (John 10:30) and that establishes Jesus' divine nature, but it also raises the question of the nature of His oneness with the Father; and any explanation of this hypostatic union must take into account both Jesus' role as Mediator to the Father and His admission 'The Father is greater than I (John 14:28)."

chevyontheriver said:

At every mass I have attended we have (all) said the Nicene Creed, which is an affirmation that we believe that Jesus Christ is God himself, and everyone who says it is affirming it or is a bald faced liar.

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Would you agree, any required belief unto salvation should be plainly and forthrightly preached from the pulpit by every priest, minister and vicar, and not just left to the reciting of creeds?

DingDing said:

May I suggest that she is just as dead as millions of others who have lived in the past. So why pray to a dead person? Jesus is the One who is living and who has power over the grave - Mary has no such power. Pray to Him who is God, rather than to her who is not.

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I don't know about you, but my God is the God of the living and not the dead.

John 6:47-51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 5:25-29
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Revelation 21:27
“ … but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

John 8:51
“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.”

seashale76 said:

I don't know about you, but my God is the God of the living and not the dead.

John 6:47-51
“Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life. I am that bread of life. Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead. This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die. I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.”

John 5:25-29
“Truly, truly, I say to you, the hour is coming, and now is, when the dead will hear the voice of the Son of God, and those who hear will live. For as the Father has life in himself, so he has granted the Son also to have life in himself, and has given him authority to execute judgment, because he is the Son of man. Do not marvel at this; for the hour is coming when all who are in the tombs will hear his voice and come forth, those who have done good, to the resurrection of life, and those who have done evil, to the resurrection of judgment.

Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”

John 11:23-27
“Jesus said to her, ‘Your brother will rise.’ Martha said to him, ‘I know he will rise, in the resurrection on the last day.’ ”

“Jesus told her, ‘I am the resurrection and the life; whoever believes in me, even if he dies, will live, and everyone who lives and believes in me will never die. Do you believe this?’ ” She said to him, ‘Yes, Lord. I have come to believe that you are the Messiah, the Son of God, ...’ ”

Matthew 22:32
“ ‘I am the God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob’? He is not the God of the dead but of the living.”

Luke 20:38
“and he is not God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive.”

Revelation 21:27
“ … but nothing unclean will enter it, nor any (one) who does abominable things or tells lies. Only those will enter whose names are written in the Lamb’s book of life.”

John 8:51
“Amen, amen, I say to you, whoever keeps my word will never see death.”

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For my fathers will is that everyone who looks to the son and believes In him shall have eternal life, AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY
John 6:40

Repeated in verses 44 &54, &39

Do you not agree, the last day mentioned Is the last day of this present earth?

DingDing said:

May I suggest that she is just as dead as millions of others who have lived in the past. So why pray to a dead person? Jesus is the One who is living and who has power over the grave - Mary has no such power. Pray to Him who is God, rather than to her who is not.

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Absolutely. The bible refers to the departed as the dead in Christ, or asleep in Christ. They are awaiting the resurrection of the dead( or asleep)

stuart lawrence said:

For my fathers will is that everyone who looks to the son and believes In him shall have eternal life, AND I WILL RAISE HIM UP AT THE LAST DAY
John 6:40

Repeated in verses 44 &54, &39

Do you not agree, the last day mentioned Is the last day of this present earth?

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Matthew 27:51-53
“And behold, the veil of the sanctuary was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth quaked, rocks were split, tombs were opened, and the bodies of many saints who had fallen asleep were raised. And coming forth from their tombs after his resurrection, they entered the holy city and appeared to many.”