Islam Are Allah and God of the Bible the same Person?

DWA2DAY · Jan 8, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
I suggest you contact the Jewish writer and ask him to clarify the position regarding Jews entering Churches. I posted the link for your reference.

One would assume since you are citing these works you would have and understanding of them, and thus the reason you are basing your discussion on them. Thus your responsibility to attain clarity to support your argument. Failing which ones conclusions in the discussion are based only on the fact attained and not hear say.

Muslim-UK said:
I haven't read Mr Lipkin's book and only watched his 1hr 20 min talk on youtube. Everything he says is consistent with Qur'an and Hadiths, but If I was to guess which passages he might be talking about from the Bible, then I guess...

From a Muslim point of view I am sure you are correct. But this still dose not explain away the Satanic revelation received by Mohammed.

Muslim-UK said:
Blessed are those whose is in you, whose hearts are set on pilgrimage.
Who passing through the valley of Baca make it a well; the rain also filleth the pools.
They go from strength to strength, every one of them in Zion appeareth before God.

From Psalm 84 I can understand how you bias approach, blind faith in Islamic teachings and lack of understanding can see this as a pilgrimage to Mecca. But one simply needs to read the passage to see the truth.

Second your use of Psalm 84 I find very interesting as from a traditional Muslim view this Psalm is rejected as a fabrication as it is not writing by David.

None the less you have quoted it a yes it does say Jews go on a pilgrimage. This is consistent with the Passover festival and atonement of sin through the sacrifice in the Temple in Jerusalem.
Yes some pilgrims may have stopped at a well or spring called Baca for rest and water. Yet this by no means says the pilgrimage is to Mecca.

If fact the next verse clear states "every one of them in Zion appearance before God." thus Zion is the destination not Mecca. Zion is Jerusalem.

Muslim-UK said:
Everything he says is consistent with Qur'an and Hadiths,

Thus Psalm 84 does not support the Quran and or Hadith view that Jews of Old went on pilgrimages to Mecca.

Finally

Muslim-UK said:
In your previous post you quoted part of the article I copied and pasted from.,

This suggest that I am in agreement with you and is not the case. As in this post I have quoted you with my comments. This is simply done so reader may see on what basis in the discussion I am replying to you and by no means imply's my agreement to your often outrageous claims.

Regards Doug

Muslim-UK · Jan 8, 2017

DWA2DAY said:
One would assume since you are citing these works you would have and understanding of them, and thus the reason you are basing your discussion on them. Thus your responsibility to attain clarity to support your argument. Failing which ones conclusions in the discussion are based only on the fact attained and not hear say.

Ok yes that's fair enough. The writer was relying on the writings of Maimonides...

Maimonides says in three distinct places that the Christians are idol worshippers.

1. In his interpretation of the Mishna, tractate Avoda Zara 1:3, he writes: “Know that this Christian nation, who are making the claim of a messiah, with all their many different sects, are all idol worshippers and all their holidays are forbidden, and we deal with them regarding religious issues as we would pagans.”

And he adds (AZ 4): “Therefore one must know that in every one of the Christian nation’s cities which has an altar, meaning their house of worship, it is a pagan house of idolatry without any doubt.”

2. In the uncensored version of Hayad Hachazaka (Hilchot Avoda Zara 9:4), Maimonides issues the edict: “The Christians are idol worshippers and Sunday is their religious holiday, therefore in Eretz Israel we may not trade with them on Thursday and Friday of every week, and needless to say on Sunday, which is forbidden [for trade with Christians] everywhere.” Trade in this context refers especially to paying back loans, which would enhance their joy on the day of their idol.

3. Also in Hayad Hachazaka, the laws of forbidden foods, the uncensored version (Hilchot Maachalot Asurot 11:7): “The Christians are idol worshippers and their regular wine if forbidden to be consumed” by Jews since it is likely to be used as libation in their pagan service.

http://www.jewishpress.com/indepth/...y-bad-muslims-bad-christians-good/2013/11/15/

DWA2DAY said:
From a Muslim point of view I am sure you are correct. But this still dose not explain away the Satanic revelation received by Mohammed.

You are discussing this point on another thread, so let's see what conclusion is drawn there.

DWA2DAY said:
From Psalm 84 I can understand how you bias approach, blind faith in Islamic teachings and lack of understanding can see this as a pilgrimage to Mecca. But one simply needs to read the passage to see the truth.

Second your use of Psalm 84 I find very interesting as from a traditional Muslim view this Psalm is rejected as a fabrication as it is not writing by David.

None the less you have quoted it a yes it does say Jews go on a pilgrimage. This is consistent with the Passover festival and atonement of sin through the sacrifice in the Temple in Jerusalem.
Yes some pilgrims may have stopped at a well or spring called Baca for rest and water. Yet this by no means says the pilgrimage is to Mecca.

If fact the next verse clear states "every one of them in Zion appearance before God." thus Zion is the destination not Mecca. Zion is Jerusalem.

Thus Psalm 84 does not support the Quran and or Hadith view that Jews of Old went on pilgrimages to Mecca.

Verse 2 refutes your claim of it being in Jerusalem:
2 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the Lord: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.

If King David pbuh was based in Jerusalem, why would he feel such longing, such pain and anguish about wanting to visit the House of ALLAH swt if it was right there on his doorstep?

DWA2DAY said:
This suggest that I am in agreement with you and is not the case. As in this post I have quoted you with my comments. This is simply done so reader may see on what basis in the discussion I am replying to you and by no means imply's my agreement to your often outrageous claims.
Regards Doug

Outrageous claims eh, the people I cite are Scholars, Eisenman is a leader in his field of study on the DSS. Maimonides considered one of the Greatest Scholars of Judaism. You baulked when I mentioned Jesus pbuh had a 1 Year Ministry, yet early Church History agrees with this view based on the alleged words of Jesus pbuh:

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

Jesus pbuh was referring to the following passages from Isaiah:

Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Isaiah 36:4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

Year NOT Years!

Let me know what 'outrageous' claims I've made without citing credible sources. Talking of credible sources, I don't think you replied to state if you accepted the article penned by William Lane Craig or if he was in your opinion even qualified to write it.
Concept of God in Islam and Christianity | Reasonable Faith

DWA2DAY · Jan 8, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Ok yes that's fair enough. The writer was relying on the writings of Maimonides...

Yet you still insistent on using this article. So in fairness to you lets look at it. The opening paragraph says :-
"Twelfth century scholar, philosopher and religious commentator Mosheh ben Maimon, known in the west as Moses Maimonides, is considered one of the main foundations of modern Jewish law, and the most widely accepted authority on Jewish philosophy."

since we are discussing Christian Theology here and authority on modern Jewish law, and Jewish philosophy. Has no bearing nor does it offer any proof to your statement Christians are pagan worshippers.

Muslim-UK said:
You are discussing this point on another thread, so let's see what conclusion is drawn there.

This is incorrect and refer you to post number 141.

Muslim-UK said:
Verse 2 refutes your claim of it being in Jerusalem:
2 My soul longeth, yea, even fainteth for the courts of the Lord: my heart and my flesh crieth out for the living God.

If King David pbuh was based in Jerusalem, why would he feel such longing, such pain and anguish about wanting to visit the House of ALLAH swt if it was right there on his doorstep?

Your error here is the assumption that God of the Bible is the same as Allah. Since this is a Muslim view and Islam considers the christian scriptures to be corrupted how do you interpret this to be Mecca. When clear the context of the Psalm say other wise.

Muslim-UK said:
Outrageous claims eh, the people I cite are Scholars, Eisenman is a leader in his field of study on the DSS. Maimonides considered one of the Greatest Scholars of Judaism. You baulked when I mentioned Jesus pbuh had a 1 Year Ministry, yet early Church History agrees with this view based on the alleged words of Jesus pbuh:

Luke 4:17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written,

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

This is your own naration as Luke 14:17-21 reads as follows :-
"And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind."

Muslim-UK said:
Isaiah 34:8 For it is the day of the Lord's vengeance, and the year of recompences for the controversy of Zion.

Isaiah 36:4 For the day of vengeance is in mine heart, and the year of my redeemed is come.

Again please read the full context of the passage and you will see this relates to the gods judgement of the nations at the time, not the length of Jesus ministry.

Muslim-UK said:
I don't think you replied to state if you accepted the article penned by William Lane Craig or if he was in your opinion even qualified to write it.

if you are unsure of what my stand on this is please read post number 61.

Regards Doug

Muslim-UK · Jan 8, 2017

DWA2DAY said:
since we are discussing Christian Theology here and authority on modern Jewish law, and Jewish philosophy. Has no bearing nor does it offer any proof to your statement Christians are pagan worshippers.

Putting Jewish Scholars aside. Catholics pray to Mary ra, which is clearly calling upon someone other than Allah swt. = Idolatry

Christians worship a man called Jesus = Idolatry
Christians worship the Holy Ghost = Idolatry

The practice of deifying mortals is a Pagan on rooted in Greco Roman Paganism.

To justify the inclusion of the Torah, labelled the 'Old' Testament (old covenant) Christians insist they too worship One GOD who manifests himself in 3 co equal, co existing persons:

Father, Son and Holy Ghost. However their co equality starts to fall apart when this is examined closely. The excuse then offered is they have different 'roles' and are not strictly co equal. It is a farce in all honesty, and one from which there is no escape.

DWA2DAY said:
This is incorrect and refer you to post number 141.

Clearly Maimonides having studied Islam did not think their was any Satanic influence upon the religion. “These Ishmaelites are not idol worshippers in the least, and [paganism] has been long since cut off from their mouths and their hearts, and they worship the singular God properly and without any blemish.”

DWA2DAY said:
Your error here is the assumption that God of the Bible is the same as Allah. Since this is a Muslim view and Islam considers the christian scriptures to be corrupted how do you interpret this to be Mecca. When clear the context of the Psalm say other wise.

I have already established Jews and Muslims worship the same GOD Elah, Allah are names we can differ on, but the ultimate authority is still the GOD of Abraham.

I showed verse 2 means it's not in Jerusalem. Why did David pbuh long to go there if it was close by? Where else is there a blessed house of Allah with a precious cornerstone in a place called Selah, has a over flowing spring and a single prayer is better than 1,000 elsewhere. Descriptions of this location are found elsewhere in the Torah too, but let's see what your response is first.

DWA2DAY said:
This is your own naration as Luke 14:17-21 reads as follows :-
"And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind."

Sorry it should have been 4:17:21 "
17 And there was delivered unto him the book of the prophet Esaias. And when he had opened the book, he found the place where it was written, <<<refers to prophecy in Isaiah

18 The Spirit of the Lord is upon me, because he hath anointed me to preach the gospel to the poor; he hath sent me to heal the brokenhearted, to preach deliverance to the captives, and recovering of sight to the blind, to set at liberty them that are bruised,

19 To preach the acceptable year of the Lord.

20 And he closed the book, and he gave it again to the minister, and sat down. And the eyes of all them that were in the synagogue were fastened on him.

21 And he began to say unto them, This day is this scripture fulfilled in your ears.

DWA2DAY said:
Again please read the full context of the passage and you will see this relates to the gods judgement of the nations at the time, not the length of Jesus ministry.

Synoptics record one pass over celebration:
Clement of Alexandria, Julius Africanus, Philastrius, Hilarion, and two or three other patristic writers to allow only one year for the public life.

Eusebius of Cesarea, 'History of the Church' "For it is evident that the three [synoptic] evangelists recorded only the deeds done by the Saviour for one year after the imprisonment of John the Baptist"

From "Chronology of the Life of Jesus Christ", Catholic Encyclopedia: "the year of my redemption" (Isaiah 34:8; 63:4), appear to have induced Clement of Alexandria, Julius Africanus [160-240], St Philastrius [4th cent., died before 397], St Hilarion [291-371], and two or three other patristic writers to allow only one year for the public life."

Other early Christians believing an one-year ministry include the followers of Basilides (active 120-140)
Valentinus (active 120-160)
Origen (185-254) "[Christ] taught about a year and a few months"
Tertullian (160-220?)
Lactantius (late 3rd to early 4th cent.)
St Gaudentius (died c. 410)
Evagrius (4th cent.)
Orosius (375?-418?) and St Ephraem (306?-373).

I understand from John's Gospel more pass overs are mentioned, but Scholars say his Gospel is the least reliable when examining the life of Jesus pbuh.

My issue isn't the length of his Ministry, but rather the comparison Christians make between the life of Jesus pbuh to that of Muhammad pbuh, forgetting one had a short Ministry, and the other 23 Years of preaching Allah's message. If you compared their first year or first 3 years, you would see no difference.

DWA2DAY said:
if you are unsure of what my stand on this is please read post number 61.
Regards Doug

Yes I see you wrote, "I though it was informative and well written."

Anyone can write a informative well written article, but doesn't mean they are qualified to do so. Does Mr Craig run some obscure blog, or does he actually have any credentials to back up his claims. This was what I was wanting to know. Is he qualified in your opinion?

DWA2DAY · Jan 8, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Putting Jewish Scholars aside. Catholics pray to Mary ra, which is clearly calling upon someone other than Allah swt. = Idolatry

Yes I agree with you, however this is solely a Catholic practice and is not an accepted Christian practice. T believe this to be why the quran sites Mary as the third person of the Trinity due to the Catholic influence during Mohammad's time on earth.

Muslim-UK said:
Christians worship a man called Jesus = Idolatry
Christians worship the Holy Ghost = Idolatry

As I have already stated this is your view and is against textual support of the Christian faith. I find it pointless to explain this as you do not accept the New Testament as the authoritative scripture for Christians.

Muslim-UK said:
The practice of deifying mortals is a Pagan on rooted in Greco Roman Paganism.

Yes I agree, but Jesus Christ is the Son of God, died on the Cross was burred and rose again after three days. now sits at the right hand of God the Father. I understand you do not accept this as our faith, but that is not the point, it is our belief and is found on solid biblical standards.

Muslim-UK said:
Father, Son and Holy Ghost. However their co equality starts to fall apart when this is examined closely. The excuse then offered is they have different 'roles' and are not strictly co equal. It is a farce in all honesty, and one from which there is no escape.

Again I refer you to post 61 this is quite well explained and find no need to repeat this again.

Muslim-UK said:
Clearly Maimonides having studied Islam did not think their was any Satanic influence upon the religion. “These Ishmaelites are not idol worshippers in the least, and [paganism] has been long since cut off from their mouths and their hearts, and they worship the singular God properly and without any blemish.”

We have dealt with this already, I can not make you understand my view only ask you to consider it.

Muslim-UK said:
I have already established Jews and Muslims worship the same GOD Elah, Allah are names we can differ on, but the ultimate authority is still the GOD of Abraham.

Again this was dealt with in the previous post. God of the Bible to both Christian and Jews and not the same god what you call Allah.
Yet if your now accept the ultimate authority lies with God of the Bible is a total different position. Is this what you are say?

Muslim-UK said:
I showed verse 2 means it's not in Jerusalem. Why did David pbuh long to go there if it was close by? Where else is there a blessed house of Allah with a precious cornerstone in a place called Selah, has a over flowing spring and a single prayer is better than 1,000 elsewhere. Descriptions of this location are found elsewhere in the Torah too, but let's see what your response is first.

Again this was dealt with in the previous post. God of the Bible to both Christian and Jews and not the same god what you call Allah.

Muslim-UK said:
Sorry it should have been 4:17:21

This simply states that the year of Jesus ministry has arrived and begun. Jesus is reading the Isaiah prophecy to show this fulfilment. This has not bearing of the length of Jesus ministry at all.

Muslim-UK said:
My issue isn't the length of his Ministry, but rather the comparison Christians make between the life of Jesus pbuh to that of Muhammad pbuh, forgetting one had a short Ministry, and the other 23 Years of preaching Allah's message. If you compared their first year or first 3 years, you would see no difference.

If the issue is not the length of Jesus ministry and Mohammed's is 23 years so what.
In truth my focus is in my faith, to compare Mohammed's first year to three of ministry with Christ I can not do on the bases the quran is not chronological.
However I have compared Mohammed's first encounter with the so called angel to Jesus baptism and wow, they are worlds appart and thus disagree with you. Islam is driven by fear when Christianity is introduced with approval from His Father, (this is my son and I am well pleased)and the baptising of the Holy Spirit.

Muslim-UK said:
I understand from John's Gospel more pass overs are mentioned, but Scholars say his Gospel is the least reliable when examining the life of Jesus pbuh.

Yes this is a typical Muslim response when they do not wish to seek understanding of our faith. yet the oldest manuscript of all New Testament text is from John and is textual sound in comparison to older text. I stand to correction here but date around 50-60AD.

Why do Muslim dislike the Gospel of John, well my opinion is he gets to the heart of the matter without beating around the bush. Read it and you have no choice but to meet the I am.

Muslim-UK said:
Does Mr Craig run some obscure blog, or does he actually have any credentials to back up his claims. This was what I was wanting to know. Is he qualified in your opinion?

This is an unfair question because when I read and or study scripture and apologetics my guide is the Holy Spirit and not the pedigree we as humans place on someone. Our conversation is a good example of this:
You have made a number of references to Maimonides through a link. The holy spirit has told me to avoid it. Till today when I was prompted to be fair to your reference and read it. As you know the first paragraph gave me my answer why it carries no weight in our discussion.

Yes I like what W. Craig has written as it speaks to my soul with agreement to my understand of my faith, offering me security in my decision and conviction that Jesus Christ is the Lord of lords and is the only way, the truth and the life everlasting.

The best thing is Jesus is standing at your door knocking (Rev3:20) wishes to have a relationship with you now and in paradise for eternity.

Please do not take me wrong here my point is this gift of love and grace is available to all who ask, no restriction.

Regards Doug

Muslim-UK · Jan 8, 2017

DWA2DAY said:
Yes I agree with you, however this is solely a Catholic practice and is not an accepted Christian practice. T believe this to be why the quran sites Mary as the third person of the Trinity due to the Catholic influence during Mohammad's time on earth.

Roman Catholics are the biggest group of Christians, they gathered and compiled the texts of the New Testament. They were in charge of the show within the first few decades of Jesus pbuh being taken up to Allah swt. They also decided what Christian Doctrine should be, finalising matters in the 4th Century, and then banning any book that went against their beliefs.

DWA2DAY said:
As I have already stated this is your view and is against textual support of the Christian faith. I find it pointless to explain this as you do not accept the New Testament as the authoritative scripture for Christians.

Yes it will be a pointless exercise.

DWA2DAY said:
Yes I agree, but Jesus Christ is the Son of God, died on the Cross was burred and rose again after three days. now sits at the right hand of God the Father. I understand you do not accept this as our faith, but that is not the point, it is our belief and is found on solid biblical standards.

Bible is full of people called sons of God, all god fearing pious people.

Ephraim is God's firstborn son. (Jeremiah 31:9)
Jacob is God's firstborn son. (Exodus 4:22)
Solomon is God's son (2 Samuel 7:13-14)
Herr Kanzler: Adam is the son of God. (Luke 3:3
David is the begotten Son of God. (Psalms 2:7)
Deuteronomy 14:1 "You are the sons of the LORD your God; you shall not cut yourselves nor shave your forehead for the sake of the dead.
Psalm 82:6 I said, "You are gods, And all of you are sons of the Most High.
Jeremiah 3:19 "Then I said, 'How I would set you among My sons And give you a pleasant land, The most beautiful inheritance of the nations!' And I said, 'You shall call Me, My Father, And not turn away from following Me.'
God sends Moses to tell Pharaoh that "Israel is My son, My first-born" Exodus 4:22

If it's about being alive at the right hand side of Allah swt, then what about Enoch, Elijah and Melchizedek, were do they sit and how does that feature in Christian worship?

You say he rose after death, but in the oldest Gospel Mark from which Matthew and Luke got most of their information from, it ends 16:8 with an empty tomb

DWA2DAY said:
Again this was dealt with in the previous post. God of the Bible to both Christian and Jews and not the same god what you call Allah.
Yet if your now accept the ultimate authority lies with God of the Bible is a total different position. Is this what you are say?

Your question is mute as, I have already shown Jews do not view Muslims as idol worshippers. It is the same GOD, why else would they be allowed to pray in a Mosque?

DWA2DAY said:
However I have compared Mohammed's first encounter with the so called angel to Jesus baptism and wow, they are worlds appart and thus disagree with you. Islam is driven by fear when Christianity is introduced with approval from His Father, (this is my son and I am well pleased)and the baptising of the Holy Spirit.

Greek mythology rearing its head. Which is probably why Justin Martyr's first apology read:

And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter. For you know how many sons your esteemed writers ascribed to Jupiter: Mercury, the interpreting word and teacher of all; Æsculapius, who, though he was a great physician, was struck by a thunderbolt, and so ascended to heaven; and Bacchus too, after he had been torn limb from limb; and Hercules, when he had committed himself to the flames to escape his toils; and the sons of Leda, and Dioscuri; and Perseus, son of Danae; and Bellerophon, who, though sprung from mortals, rose to heaven on the horse Pegasus. For what shall I say of Ariadne, and those who, like her, have been declared to be set among the stars? And what of the emperors who die among yourselves, whom you deem worthy of deification, and in whose behalf you produce some one who swears he has seen the burning Cæsar rise to heaven from the funeral pyre? And what kind of deeds are recorded of each of these reputed sons of Jupiter, it is needless to tell to those who already know.

CHURCH FATHERS: The First Apology (St. Justin Martyr)

I suppose Mr Martyr is another of those 'fringe' Scholars that you are quick to point out.

DWA2DAY said:
Yes this is a typical Muslim response when they do not wish to seek understanding of our faith. yet the oldest manuscript of all New Testament text is from John and is textual sound in comparison to older text. I stand to correction here but date around 50-60AD.

Why do Muslim dislike the Gospel of John, well my opinion is he gets to the heart of the matter without beating around the bush. Read it and you have no choice but to meet the I am.

Credit card sized P52 has been dated recently to 200 AD. the original Gospels, what ever they looked like are dated to between 35 and 60 years after Jesus pbuh. Professor Bart Ehrman, (yes potentially another of those fringe Scholars!) says you only have copies of copies of copies of copies of copies

What is the significance of this fragment? (The University of Manchester Library)

"The first editor dated the Fragment to the first half of the second century (between 100-150 AD). The date was estimated palaeographically, by comparing the handwriting with other manuscripts. However, palaeography is not an exact science - none of the comparable Biblical manuscripts are dated and most papyri bearing a secure date are administrative documents. Recent research points to a date nearer to 200 AD, but there is as yet no convincing evidence that any earlier fragments from the New Testament survive. Carbon-dating is a destructive method and has not been used on the Fragment."

DWA2DAY said:
This is an unfair question because when I read and or study scripture and apologetics my guide is the Holy Spirit and not the pedigree we as humans place on someone. Our conversation is a good example of this:
You have made a number of references to Maimonides through a link. The holy spirit has told me to avoid it. Till today when I was prompted to be fair to your reference and read it. As you know the first paragraph gave me my answer why it carries no weight in our discussion.

So Maimonides carries no weight because Modern Jewish law is based on his works. Can you show me any reputable Torah Rabbi predating Maimonides, who has ever said it was fine to pray in a Church because the Jews and Christians worship the same God?

You mention having the Holy Spirit. Could you please explain what it does? Jesus pbuh said,
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."

Is this what the Disciples had with them after Jesus pbuh departed, and is this what you personally have with you today?

DWA2DAY said:
Yes I like what W. Craig has written as it speaks to my soul with agreement to my understand of my faith, offering me security in my decision and conviction that Jesus Christ is the Lord of lords and is the only way, the truth and the life everlasting.

Good to know. I'll go and check Mr Craig's credentials and see what else he has to say, if at all relevant to this discussion.

DWA2DAY said:
The best thing is Jesus is standing at your door knocking (Rev3:20) wishes to have a relationship with you now and in paradise for eternity.

Please do not take me wrong here my point is this gift of love and grace is available to all who ask, no restriction.
Regards Doug

That's great, but Muslims and Jews have a personal and direct relationship with Allah/Eloh swt The Most Loving and Compassionate. Muslims for example connect with Him 5 times a day in prayer, and we can talk to Him explaining our troubles and seeking His help. We also have prayers for making big decisions, should I take that Job, should I buy that house etc, and He promises to direct the faithful to what is best. And of course we can listen to His unaltered Words by reading the Qur'an.

DWA2DAY · Jan 8, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
I have already established Jews and Muslims worship the same GOD Elah, Allah are names we can differ on, but the ultimate authority is still the GOD of Abraham.

You say you have but you have not........... If fact you are simply affirming the authority in the bible, yet at the same time deny it teachings.

Muslim-UK said:
Roman Catholics are the biggest group of Christians, they gathered and compiled the texts of the New Testament. They were in charge of the show within the first few decades of Jesus pbuh being taken up to Allah swt. They also decided what Christian Doctrine should be, finalising matters in the 4th Century, and then banning any book that went against their beliefs.

Clearly do do not have any understanding of the compilation of the New Testament its background or history.

Muslim-UK said:
Bible is full of people called sons of God, all god fearing pious people.

Yes you are correct as I to am a son of God, but Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Read Romans 8 for a better understanding of this.

Muslim-UK said:
Your question is mute as, I have already shown Jews do not view Muslims as idol worshippers. It is the same GOD, why else would they be allowed to pray in a Mosque?

Well the Old /Testament does not say as much, nether did Mohammed when he killed the Jews for rejecting Islam.

Muslim-UK said:
I suppose Mr Martyr is another of those 'fringe' Scholars that you are quick to point out.

Well taking reading his works with a modern cap on your head I would understand your position. Yet this gives his writing no credibility as one needs to take into account the audience and setting he is writing to. Once you have done that re read your quote and it may enlighten you.

Muslim-UK said:
Professor Bart Ehrman, (yes potentially another of those fringe Scholars!) says you only have copies of copies of copies of copies of copies

Funny thing in a recent debate with James White Bart Ehrtman clearly accepted the gospels as authentic. Yes we have copies of the text which in itself is a blessing to reference, after all we could have burned them like Uthman did with the copies of the Quran. now there is no original copies to reference, so what was Utham trying to hide?

Muslim-UK said:
Can you show me any reputable Torah Rabbi predating Maimonides, who has ever said it was fine to pray in a Church because the Jews and Christians worship the same God?

Why on earth would I waist my time proving to you a Jews view. I am a Christian and thus as said before Jews and for that point Muslims are welcome to come to a Christian Church at anytime.

Muslim-UK said:
That's great, but Muslims and Jews have a personal and direct relationship with Allah/Eloh swt

If this is what you believe great, but then clearly our understanding of personal and relationship are worlds apart. Since Allah views subject as nothing more than slaves Surah 51:56 and 19:93 I doubt very much you have any relationship with Allah.
The Jews on the other hand well they do not accept Allah as there God. you say they do but your view is wrong.

Muslim-UK said:
You mention having the Holy Spirit. Could you please explain what it does? Jesus pbuh said,
"But when he, the Spirit of truth, comes, he will guide you into all the truth. He will not speak on his own; he will speak only what he hears, and he will tell you what is yet to come."
Is this what the Disciples had with them after Jesus pbuh departed, and is this what you personally have with you today?

You are asking me to throw my pearls to the swine, this is a topic clearly out of your scope of understanding. Thus no comment.

Regards Doug

Der Alte · Jan 8, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
Maimonides: Islam Good, Christianity Bad, Muslims Bad, Christians Good
Over the past couple of years, I’ve mentioned in several JewishPress.com articles that there are huge differences between our views of Islam and of Christianity—the former generally considered a fine religion for gentiles, the latter considered, essentially, idol worship. My source for those statements, which most yeshiva-schooled Jews are familiar with, is Maimonides. And since it’s difficult to describe traditional Judaism without Maimonides, what he says on these issues is followed and adhered by the vast majority of observant Jews.

You keep making the same claim that Maimonides said that is was permitted for Jews to enter a Muslim mosque but not a Christian church but your source does not quote any writing by Rambam which says that. Here what the author Yori Yanover says but he does not cite any specific writing of Rambam.

"Each time I mentioned the fact that a religious Jew is permitted to pray in a mosque, but forbidden to even enter a church, I would be challenged by a few readers, and answer on the spot. But as the issue of Islam vs. Christianity keeps coming up, I decided to offer this essential article which we could all refer to in future exchanges.

In his Letter to Obadiah the Proselyte Maimonides states clearly: “These Ishmaelites are not idol worshippers in the least, and [paganism] has been long since cut off from their mouths and their hearts, and they worship the singular God properly and without any blemish.”

I looked up two different copies of this letter and could not find the words "Ishmaelites are not idol worshippers!" See e.g. this link.
Choosing to be a Torah Jew: Maimonides, “Letter to Obadiah the Proselyte”

Some good news for you is the following:
DSS
So if the Dead Sea Scrolls predate Christianity, then who may I ask, do you think is the The Crucified Messiah Scroll in reference to? One who apparently suffered for the sins of men. This was uncovered by Eisenman, who you consider to be on the fringe.

"There is no reason to suggest that the New Testament authors knew any of the sectarian works discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Further, it is quite possible that the two groups never interacted with each other. VanderKam points out that there is no overlap between the cast of characters in the scrolls and the New Testament (except for figures from the Hebrew Bible). He notes that “not even John the Baptist, who for a time lived in the wilderness and around the Jordan, not too far from the Dead Sea Scroll caves (see Luke 1:80; 3:3)” appears in the scrolls—let alone Jesus, much of whose ministry happened in Galilee."
Biblical Archaeological Society
The Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament - Biblical Archaeology Society

To Mr. Knohl, who wrote ''The Messiah Before Jesus: The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls,'' published by the University of California Press in October, he was most likely an Essene named Menahem who lived a generation later and was killed by Romans during the social upheaval that followed King Herod's death in 4 B.C.
Proposing A Messiah Before Jesus

Muslim-UK · Jan 8, 2017

DWA2DAY said:
You say you have but you have not........... If fact you are simply affirming the authority in the bible, yet at the same time deny it teachings.

I have shown Jewish Scholars allow Jews to enter and pray in a Mosque. They wouldn't do this if we worshipped different Gods.

DWA2DAY said:
Clearly do do not have any understanding of the compilation of the New Testament its background or history.

As Bart says only 5th generation copies are available. He's wrote about the forged origins of the NT, and another book explaining the development of Jesus pbuh was called, 'How Jesus became God'. I'm sure some of what he writes is sensationalism to get book sales, but he's had some interesting debates that I've watched on youtube, both with James White and Mike Licona that left both men a little rattled, though they did a good job defending their faith.

Bart is just another Scholar in a long list from the past 5 Centuries that have written about early Manuscripts and the development of Christianity.

DWA2DAY said:
Yes you are correct as I to am a son of God, but Jesus Christ is the Son of God. Read Romans 8 for a better understanding of this.

All I understand is Jesus pbuh told his disciples to not go to the Gentiles, to keep the commandments, do good works and above all worship ALLAHA alone. Paul says, just believe in the death and resurrection to be saved because Jesus pbuh is much more than a mere man. He expected him to return in his lifetime, which didn't happen, and you know what they say about people who make false prophecies.

DWA2DAY said:
Well the Old /Testament does not say as much, nether did Mohammed when he killed the Jews for rejecting Islam.

Why would the Torah say anything about Muslims and Christians? It makes clear not to worship anyone except the GOD of Abraham pbuh. No Jew believes that God is one in 3 separate persons, 2 of which are not equal with the Father. There's nothing in the Torah that teaches this. Actually there's nothing in the New Testament either, as it comes from Pagan beliefs.

DWA2DAY said:
Funny thing in a recent debate with James White Bart Ehrtman clearly accepted the gospels as authentic. Yes we have copies of the text which in itself is a blessing to reference, after all we could have burned them like Uthman did with the copies of the Quran. now there is no original copies to reference, so what was Utham trying to hide?

I doubt Bart would say that, but would be happy to look at the reference if you have it. If you feel qualified to talk about the Qur'ans compilation, let me know who became Caliph after Uthman ra and why that pours cold water on any notion of lost Qur'an.

Books of Arianism (after Council of Nicaea)

Burning of Arian books at Nicaea (illustration from a compendium of canon law, ca. 825, MS. in the Capitular Library, Vercelli)
The books of Arius and his followers, after the first Council of Nicaea (325 C.E.), were burned for heresy by the Roman emperor Theodosius I who published a decree commanding that, "the doctrine of the Trinity should be embraced by those who would be called catholics; that all others should bear the infamous name of heretics".[27] Arius was exiled and presumably assassinated following this, and Arian books continued to be regularly burned into the 330s

Joseph Priestley. An history of the corruptions of Christianity (1782) pg. 173–174

DWA2DAY said:
Why on earth would I waist my time proving to you a Jews view. I am a Christian and thus as said before Jews and for that point Muslims are welcome to come to a Christian Church at anytime.

Most likely because Jews know how serious it is to worship something that has been created, and as such no learned Rabbi would advocate a believer visiting a Church to pray.

DWA2DAY said:
If this is what you believe great, but then clearly our understanding of personal and relationship are worlds apart. Since Allah views subject as nothing more than slaves Surah 51:56 and 19:93 I doubt very much you have any relationship with Allah.
The Jews on the other hand well they do not accept Allah as there God. you say they do but your view is wrong.

Trying to sum up Allah swt using an isolated verse here and there isn't going to prove anything, and your assertions will fall on death ears for anyone who has read the Qur'an.
Jews today would be happy to agree with you given recent political History. It's pointless bringing you references as we already know God of the Torah does not have a begotten son.

DWA2DAY said:
You are asking me to throw my pearls to the swine, this is a topic clearly out of your scope of understanding. Thus no comment.
Regards Doug

Ok perhaps just briefly explain how the Holy Spirit guides people into all truth and confirm whether or not all the Disciples had it helping them, and if not which ones did.

Muslim-UK · Jan 8, 2017

Der Alter said:
You keep making the same claim that Maimonides said that is was permitted for Jews to enter a Muslim mosque but not a Christian church but your source does not quote any writing by Rambam which says that. Here what the author Yori Yanover says but he does not cite any specific writing of Rambam.

"Each time I mentioned the fact that a religious Jew is permitted to pray in a mosque, but forbidden to even enter a church, I would be challenged by a few readers, and answer on the spot. But as the issue of Islam vs. Christianity keeps coming up, I decided to offer this essential article which we could all refer to in future exchanges.

I looked up two different copies of this letter and could not find the words "Ishmaelites are not idol worshippers!" See e.g. this link.
Choosing to be a Torah Jew: Maimonides, “Letter to Obadiah the Proselyte”

The reason why you may be having trouble is highlighted below. You could try contacting the Jewish writer of the article and ask for a link to the quotes used. I'll have a look too and see what I can turn up.

2. In the uncensored version of Hayad Hachazaka (Hilchot Avoda Zara 9:4), Maimonides issues the edict: “The Christians are idol worshippers and Sunday is their religious holiday, therefore in Eretz Israel we may not trade with them on Thursday and Friday of every week, and needless to say on Sunday, which is forbidden [for trade with Christians] everywhere.” Trade in this context refers especially to paying back loans, which would enhance their joy on the day of their idol.

Der Alter said:
"There is no reason to suggest that the New Testament authors knew any of the sectarian works discovered among the Dead Sea Scrolls. Further, it is quite possible that the two groups never interacted with each other. VanderKam points out that there is no overlap between the cast of characters in the scrolls and the New Testament (except for figures from the Hebrew Bible). He notes that “not even John the Baptist, who for a time lived in the wilderness and around the Jordan, not too far from the Dead Sea Scroll caves (see Luke 1:80; 3:3)” appears in the scrolls—let alone Jesus, much of whose ministry happened in Galilee."
Biblical Archaeological Society
The Dead Sea Scrolls and the New Testament - Biblical Archaeology Society

Yes I'm aware of the discussion Scholars have amongst themselves over the DSS. Another theory put forward by James H. Charlesworth was John may have lived amongst the Qumran community for a while. The Israelis are conducting more searches of the caves, so perhaps more information will come to light.

Der Alter said:
To Mr. Knohl, who wrote ''The Messiah Before Jesus: The Suffering Servant of the Dead Sea Scrolls,'' published by the University of California Press in October, he was most likely an Essene named Menahem who lived a generation later and was killed by Romans during the social upheaval that followed King Herod's death in 4 B.C.
Proposing A Messiah Before Jesus

This just shows Messiahs were killed by the Romans, so perhaps people borrowed from previous accounts, whilst changing details.

Der Alte · Jan 8, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
The reason why you may be having trouble is highlighted below. You could try contacting the Jewish writer of the article and ask for a link to the quotes used. I'll have a look too and see what I can turn up.

It is not incumbent on the reader to contact writers to ascertain what sources they relied on. What I have learned in my studies if a writer makes reference to a source it is incumbent on that writer to correctly identify that source. Anybody can make empty claims.

2. In the uncensored version of Hayad Hachazaka (Hilchot Avoda Zara 9:4), Maimonides issues the edict: “The Christians are idol worshippers and Sunday is their religious holiday, therefore in Eretz Israel we may not trade with them on Thursday and Friday of every week, and needless to say on Sunday, which is forbidden [for trade with Christians] everywhere.” Trade in this context refers especially to paying back loans, which would enhance their joy on the day of their idol.

This is still not a credible source quoting Maimondes saying that Jews are permitted to enter and pray in mosques.

Yes I'm aware of the discussion Scholars have amongst themselves over the DSS. Another theory put forward by James H. Charlesworth was John may have lived amongst the Qumran community for a while. The Israelis are conducting more searches of the caves, so perhaps more information will come to light.

Let me know when there is a majority consensus.

This just shows Messiahs were killed by the Romans, so perhaps people borrowed from previous accounts, whilst changing details.

No, that is one manuscript purporting to refer to a crucified messiah.

Muslim-UK · Jan 8, 2017

Der Alter said:
It is not incumbent on the reader to contact writers to ascertain what sources they relied on. What I have learned in my studies if a writer makes reference to a source it is incumbent on that writer to correctly identify that source. Anybody can make empty claims.

This is still not a credible source quoting Maimondes saying that Jews are permitted to enter and pray in mosques.

The original link I used on Mi Yodeya itself referenced a book תשובות הרמב"ם - משה בן מימון (page 68 of 475) As a non Hebrew speaker, I was unable to verify the contents, however:

Google search shows multiple Jewish Websites using Maimonides reference to Muslims being perfect Monotheists as reason to allow worship in a Mosque.

Multiple Jewish Scholars today say, it is ok to pray in a Mosque based upon the writings of Maimonides.

Short of asking to view uncensored books at my local Synagogue in English, then being allowed to photocopy the relevant page and upload for your viewing pleasure, I can only suggest you read pages 139 and 140 from the following book using Google Book preview:
Midrashic Imagination, The It uses lots of citations from Maimonides, the highly respected Jewish Scholar, equal to none other than Moses himself, or so Jews say

DWA2DAY · Jan 8, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
All I understand is Jesus pbuh told his disciples to not go to the Gentiles, to keep the commandments, do good works and above all worship ALLAHA alone.

You are confused Allah is not mentioned in the bible.
Please show me one scripture were Jesus said do good works and keep the ten commandment.

Muslim-UK said:
Paul says, just believe in the death and resurrection to be saved because Jesus pbuh is much more than a mere man. He expected him to return in his lifetime, which didn't happen, and you know what they say about people who make false prophecies.

Please show me were Paul made this Prophecy.

Muslim-UK said:
Why would the Torah say anything about Muslims and Christians? It makes clear not to worship anyone except the GOD of Abraham pbuh. No Jew believes that God is one in 3 separate persons, 2 of which are not equal with the Father. There's nothing in the Torah that teaches this. Actually there's nothing in the New Testament either, as it comes from Pagan beliefs.

Muslim-UK said:
I doubt Bart would say that, but would be happy to look at the reference if you have it.

See around 1:52 in James white closeing statment, his referance to Bart Ethman.

Muslim-UK said:
If you feel qualified to talk about the Qur'ans compilation, let me know who became Caliph after Uthman ra and why that pours cold water on any notion of lost Qur'an.

That' is not the point Muslims burned the Quran to hide the gross errors and corruption in it. Simple as that.

Muslim-UK said:
Burning of Arian books at Nicaea

What on earth do heretical books got to do with the Bible. This proves nothing but shows you ignorance and avoid the fact Muslims burned the complete historical record of early writing of the Quran to hide its errors.

Muslim-UK said:
Trying to sum up Allah swt using an isolated verse here and there isn't going to prove anything, and your assertions will fall on death ears for anyone who has read the Qur'an.

That fact is Allah wants no relationship with you other than you been His slave. clearly state in Surah 51:56 and 19:93, you think you have a personal relationship with him. Ok that your belief and its fine with me. Or are these verse also corrupted because you do not like them.

Muslim-UK said:
Jews today would be happy to agree with you given recent political History. It's pointless bringing you references as we already know God of the Torah does not have a begotten son.

Lets refer again to your reference on the matter and fill in some blanks you did not site:-
Therefore, argues Maimonides (Rambam’s responsa, Blau, answer 149) that while a discourse with a Christian could lead to his understanding of his mistaken reading and therefore could benefit from the explanation, even if he didn’t convert to Judaism – a Muslim will always perceive our explanations as being founded on a lie, so don’t bother.
Maimonides: Islam Good, Christianity Bad, Muslims Bad, Christians Good

Opps you see Maimonides see through Islam and it lies, not just the Jews and Christians.

Muslim-UK said:
Ok perhaps just briefly explain how the Holy Spirit guides people into all truth and confirm whether or not all the Disciples had it helping them, and if not which ones did.

You are asking me to throw my pearls to the swine, this is a topic clearly out of your scope of understanding. Thus no comment.

This needs no explanation,

Muslim-UK said:
I have shown Jewish Scholars allow Jews to enter and pray in a Mosque. They wouldn't do this if we worshipped different Gods.

But you have not show this, in fact you said no Jews are allowed into Mecca to worship, if it were the same god they would be.

Then you went on to say the affirm the Authority of the Torah above the Quran. You have shown nothing

Regards Doug

DWA2DAY · Jan 8, 2017

Muslim-UK said:
It uses lots of citations from Maimonides, the highly respected Jewish Scholar, equal to none other than Moses himself, or so Jews say

Were is you reference to this or is this once again just a hot air alligation with no value?

rturner76 · Jan 8, 2017

We all worship the same God we just have a different understanding of and relationship to that God. There can only be one all knowing all powerful Diety in the universe, to say there is more than one is polytheism

JackRT · Jan 8, 2017

rturner76 said:
We all worship the same God we just have a different understanding of and relationship to that God. There can only be one all knowing all powerful Diety in the universe, to say there is more than one is polytheism

I agree completely that there is one God. There are no "false gods" just different understandings of the one God. We may disagree with them and they with us but a polite dialogue is far better than condemnation.

Muslim-UK · Jan 8, 2017

DWA2DAY said:
You are confused Allah is not mentioned in the bible.
Please show me one scripture were Jesus said do good works and keep the ten commandment.

We already saw Allaha in the Aramaic NT.

Good works
Matthew 25:31-46 “But when the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the angels with Him, then He will sit on His glorious throne. 32 “And all the nations will be gathered before Him; and He will separate them from one another, as the shepherd separates the sheep from the goats; 33 and He will put the sheep on His right, and the goats on the left. 34 “Then the King will say to those on His right, ‘Come, you who are blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world. 35 ‘For I was hungry, and you gave Me something to eat; I was thirsty, and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger, and you invited Me in; 36 naked, and you clothed Me; I was sick, and you visited Me; I was in prison, and you came to Me.’

The Greatest Commandments:
Mark 12:
28 And one of the scribes came, and having heard them reasoning together, and perceiving that he had answered them well, asked him, Which is the first commandment of all?

29 And Jesus answered him, The first of all the commandments is, Hear, O Israel; The Lord our God is one Lord:

30 And thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind, and with all thy strength: this is the first commandment.

31 And the second is like, namely this, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. There is none other commandment greater than these.

32 And the scribe said unto him, Well, Master, thou hast said the truth: for there is one God; and there is none other but he:

33 And to love him with all the heart, and with all the understanding, and with all the soul, and with all the strength, and to love his neighbour as himself, is more than all whole burnt offerings and sacrifices.

34 And when Jesus saw that he answered discreetly, he said unto him, Thou art not far from the kingdom of God. And no man after that durst ask him any question.

No human sacrifice required. Just keep Torah:

Matthew 5:17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfil. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. 19 Whosoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whosoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

DWA2DAY said:
Please show me were Paul made this Prophecy.

“Long ago, at many times and in many ways, God spoke to our fathers by the prophets, but in these last days he has spoken to us by his Son…” (Hebrews 1:1-2)

“Now these things happened to them as an example, but they were written down for our instruction, on whom the end of the ages has come.” (1 Corinthians 10:11)

“And let us consider how to stir up one another to love and good works, not neglecting to meet together, as is the habit of some, but encouraging one another, and all the more as you see the Day drawing near.” (Hebrews 10:24-25)

Don't even bother getting married!

“Do not seek a wife. This is what I mean, brothers: the appointed time has grown very short. From now on, let those who have wives live as though they had none, and those who mourn as though they were not mourning, and those who rejoice as though they were not rejoicing, and those who buy as though they had no goods, and those who deal with the world as though they had no dealings with it. For the present form of this world is passing away.” (1 Corinthians 7:27,29-31)

“For this we declare to you by a word from the Lord, that we who are alive, who are left until the coming of the Lord, will not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a cry of command, with the voice of an archangel, and with the sound of the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. Then we who are alive, who are left, will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air, and so we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thessalonians 4:15-17)

See around 1:52 in James white closeing statment, his referance to Bart Ethman.
[/quote]

Ah hearsay.

DWA2DAY said:
That' is not the point Muslims burned the Quran to hide the gross errors and corruption in it. Simple as that.

I guess if you say so, then it makes it true :/

DWA2DAY said:
What on earth do heretical books got to do with the Bible. This proves nothing but shows you ignorance and avoid the fact Muslims burned the complete historical record of early writing of the Quran to hide its errors.

They burnt whole libraries and likely early writings from Disciples that record someone other than Jesus pbuh was crucified. It's a good job some people had the opportunity to hide some of these texts in the desert to be discovered hundreds of years later.

DWA2DAY said:
That fact is Allah wants no relationship with you other than you been His slave. clearly state in Surah 51:56 and 19:93, you think you have a personal relationship with him. Ok that your belief and its fine with me. Or are these verse also corrupted because you do not like them.

"I have not created the jinn and mankind except to worship me.I do not want from them any sustenance and I do not want (from them) that they feed me. Indeed Allah is the Provider, the possessor of power and strength." Qur'an 51: 56-58

This is the objective for which Allah swt created the jinn and mankind and also the reason that Allah sent the messengers, in order to call and preach their people to. The sole objective is the worship of Allah which necessitates knowing Him and loving Him, as well as repenting and turning to Allah in servitude. It also necessitates rejecting and turning away from all false gods and in return Allah swt promises every Muslim, no matter what his sins will enter Heaven, such is the love He has for us.

19:93 Is just showing you Jesus pbuh was a humble slave of Allah swt, a true Muslim. One who prayed all night in the garden of Gethsemane to the point he was sweating blood. He was prepared to be killed on the cross if that be the will of Allah swt, but was heard and saved by the most compassionate. We read in the Gospel of John, that his prayers were ALWAYS heard.

DWA2DAY said:
Lets refer again to your reference on the matter and fill in some blanks you did not site:-
Therefore, argues Maimonides (Rambam’s responsa, Blau, answer 149) that while a discourse with a Christian could lead to his understanding of his mistaken reading and therefore could benefit from the explanation, even if he didn’t convert to Judaism – a Muslim will always perceive our explanations as being founded on a lie, so don’t bother.
Maimonides: Islam Good, Christianity Bad, Muslims Bad, Christians Good

Opps you see Maimonides see through Islam and it lies, not just the Jews and Christians.

Actually I told you the good news was Christians can be converted, but not Muslims.
They key is Maimonides says we are Monotheists and based on that Majority of Jewish Scholars state worship in a Mosque is fine.

DWA2DAY said:
You are asking me to throw my pearls to the swine, this is a topic clearly out of your scope of understanding. Thus no comment.

This needs no explanation,

No explanation needed because there no such thing as having the holy spirit guide you into all truth. The holy spirit hasn't uttered a word in almost 2000 years. The Disciples didn't have it either, which is why they made mistakes and invented stories.

DWA2DAY said:
But you have not show this, in fact you said no Jews are allowed into Mecca to worship, if it were the same god they would be.

Then you went on to say the affirm the Authority of the Torah above the Quran. You have shown nothing

To pray at the Kaaba, you have to acknowledge all the Prophets including Jesus and Muhammad pbut as previously stated. Jews can enter Mosques to pray, but are forbidden under Jewish Law to enter a Church to offer prayers.

Maimonides who we all like so much says, Muslims are also bound by the Abrahamic covenant of circumcision: Midrashic Imagination, The Page 139.

"Furthermore, elsewhere in his writings Maimonides unequivocally states that Muslims (in contrast to Christians) are pure monotheists who believe in the unity of God. Thus the followers of Islam satisfy all three of Maimonide’s criteria for membership in the covenant he describes as Abraham’s covenant, a term that is not, then, meant to be coextensive with any other term specifically for the Jews, such as the people of Israel or the Mosiac covenant."

Muslim-UK · Jan 8, 2017

rturner76 said:
We all worship the same God we just have a different understanding of and relationship to that God. There can only be one all knowing all powerful Diety in the universe, to say there is more than one is polytheism

Agreed when talking with sensible people, as yourself.

Muslim-UK · Jan 8, 2017

JackRT said:
I agree completely that there is one God. There are no "false gods" just different understandings of the one God. We may disagree with them and they with us but a polite dialogue is far better than condemnation.

I agree with this too.

DWA2DAY · Jan 9, 2017

rturner76 said:
We all worship the same God we just have a different understanding of and relationship to that God. There can only be one all knowing all powerful Diety in the universe, to say there is more than one is polytheism

JackRT said:
I agree completely that there is one God. There are no "false gods" just different understandings of the one God. We may disagree with them and they with us but a polite dialogue is far better than condemnation.

This view know as religious relativism, which is almost unthinkingly accepted by many people today, is simply not true. In fact, religious relativism is logically incoherent and so cannot be true. For the world’s religions conceive of God, or gods, in so many contradictory ways that they cannot all be true. In particular, the concept of God in Islam and Christianity is so different that both religions cannot be right. Islam and Christianity have different doctrines or teachings concerning what God is like. For example, Christians believe that God is tri-personal, that there are in the one God three persons whom we call the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit. Muslims deny this doctrine or teaching. They believe that God is a single person. We cannot both be right. We could both be wrong—maybe it’s the Buddhists who are right and God is impersonal—but we cannot both be correct.

Regards Doug

Read more: Concept of God in Islam and Christianity | Reasonable Faith

Islam Are Allah and God of the Bible the same Person?

convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

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convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

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convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

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convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

This is me about 1 yr. old.

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This is me about 1 yr. old.

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convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

Domine non-sum dignus

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convictions are worse Enemies of Truth than Lies!

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