Which Part of TULIP Do You Have the Most Trouble With?
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ViaCrucis
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The Reformed tradition believes in double predestination, yes; and TULIP was developed within a Calvinist framework as a response against Jacob Arminius and the Remonstrants.
Lutherans don't believe in double predestination. Predestination, in Lutheranism, isn't about God choosing some and passing over the rest; it is about God in Christ being merciful to a world of sinners.
-CryptoLutheran
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ViaCrucis
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How does God choosing to save us because He is good and kind make God a monster? It is only monstrous if one believes that God's election means He chooses some and not others (double predestination). But He who poured Himself out unto death on Mt. Calvary for the whole world is no tyrant, but the merciful Savior of "all men, especially of those who believe" (1 Timothy 4:10)
-CryptoLutheran
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There may be no reason that you can think of or know, but He has a reason.
Secondly, if you believe in total depravity/inability, then you have to believe in unconditional election. How does a totally depraved person meet any conditions?
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It is an acronym.
Total Depravity (also known as Total Inability and Original Sin)
Unconditional Election
Limited Atonement (also known as Particular Atonement)
Irresistible Grace
Perseverance of the Saints (also known as Once Saved Always Saved)
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jerry kelso
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To all,
The tulip can be very complicated depending on what terms and definitions are used.
In short, I have one problem with it and that is the whole basis of it's theology.
God is sovereign but tulip is extreme sovereignty that strips God's conduct and character of Holiness. Jerry kelso
The tulip can be very complicated depending on what terms and definitions are used.
In short, I have one problem with it and that is the whole basis of it's theology.
God is sovereign but tulip is extreme sovereignty that strips God's conduct and character of Holiness. Jerry kelso
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The word, "complicated" may not be the best choice, rather, I would say that it can be difficult to accept, but so is the Trinity, and Hell.
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jerry kelso
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jimmyjimmy,
Both hold true depending on if you talk to someone who knows the overall theme compared to one who understands more of the nitty gritty details such as in Calvin' institutes. Jerry kelso
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jerry kelso
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To jimmy,
1. Calvinism vs. Arminianism
2. Total Depravity-Different definitions of different contextual beliefs
3. Unconditional Election vs. Conditional Election
4. Limited Atonement vs. Unlimited Atonement
5. Irresistible Grace vs. not irresistible
6. Perseverance-different contextual belief
7. Calvinism based on Total Sovereignty of God to the extreme. Arminianism is based on God giving free will choice to man not overriding God's Sovereignty but as an act of obedience that cooperates with God who demands that cooperative obedience.
It is not true love if man has no free will choice in the matter.
This may simple to some and complex to others but it gets deeper when discussing foreknowledge and predestination.
That is what I meant by complicated. I'll stop here. Jerry kelso
1. Calvinism vs. Arminianism
2. Total Depravity-Different definitions of different contextual beliefs
3. Unconditional Election vs. Conditional Election
4. Limited Atonement vs. Unlimited Atonement
5. Irresistible Grace vs. not irresistible
6. Perseverance-different contextual belief
7. Calvinism based on Total Sovereignty of God to the extreme. Arminianism is based on God giving free will choice to man not overriding God's Sovereignty but as an act of obedience that cooperates with God who demands that cooperative obedience.
It is not true love if man has no free will choice in the matter.
This may simple to some and complex to others but it gets deeper when discussing foreknowledge and predestination.
That is what I meant by complicated. I'll stop here. Jerry kelso
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ViaCrucis
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No harm, no foul. But if only for the sake of clarity:
For Lutherans, the unconditional election of sinners by God in Christ is never about choosing some for salvation and, as a consequence, choosing some for damnation--nobody has been chosen for damnation. It is the will of God that all be saved, because God loves all, Christ died for all, no exceptions. Unconditional election is never about our "worth" or about God picking and choosing who will go to heaven and hell; it is instead about God's eternal kindness toward sinners, revealed and found in Jesus; and having hope in Him can with confidence trust that our salvation does not depend on us getting everything right, but instead that our salvation is from the God who so loves the world, who has chosen us in Christ, and who in Christ has poured Himself out in love and grace for the whole world. That Christ is, indeed, Faithful and True; even though we are sinful and poor.
-CryptoLutheran
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ViaCrucis
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Lutherans, being monergists, would regard any response on our part to be post-salvific. That is, we say "yes" to God not in order to be saved, but because God has already worked faith in us, saving us, and it is in this faith which He has given us that we say "yes" to Him. We cooperate with God, not in our personal salvation--or rather, not in our standing before God--but rather out of love for Him and out of a desire to be obedient out of concern for our fellow man. Our good works do not benefit us in relation to God--God doesn't need our good works, they don't add anything to what He has done already for us in Christ--but our good works do benefit our neighbor, and God has called us to go out into the world and love our neighbor.
-CryptoLutheran
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