A Very Valid Point

tucker58 · Dec 19, 2016

QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 70560883, member: 381615"]Ye MUST be born again.
It is not an option, it I pivotal. Jesus can only be your saviour from sin/ transgression of the law if you have been born again, for he will be no ones saviour from sin unless they in their heart want to live as his father desires them to[/QUOTE

QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 70560899, member: 381615"]Satan obviously does not want sins true power removed from the believer. He appears to have a lot of willing helpers, people who are eager, to in reality stress a law of righteousness:
Obey the law or stand condemned[/QUOTE

QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 70560883, member: 381615"]The new covenant comes in two parts. You cant explain the first part to me and reject the second part

I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.

You only get the second part as the first has taken place.[/QUOTE

QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 70560883, member: 381615"]You are supernaturally born again of the holy spirit at conversion. He enters your life and writes the law on your mind God desires you to keep and places it on your heart. You in your mind instinctively know how God wants you to live and in your heart you want to obey. Through this law placed within you, you have heartfelt conviction of your sin. You no longer live according to your own particular Moral compass, doing what you want, you seek to live a life according to what God desires. In this sense you have been born again of the Spirit.[/QUOTE

QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 70565693, member: 381615"]As from your post, I see you have not understood what I have written, respectfully I will not respond to your post, and most likely cause you further misunderstanding of my POV
God bless[/QUOTE

Stuart Lawrence, I think that I do understand what you are saying and it is ok if you do not respond to my post. All is well

. The problem is that what you are saying, as a absolute, adds up to: most Christians that come under today's traditional beliefs do not come under the salvation of Christ Jesus. Stuart Lawence, I have spent a lot of my life wrestling with what you are presenting. I came to the same conclusion that you have come to over thirty years ago. And I also agree with: Satan obviously does not want sins true power removed from the believer. He appears to have a lot of willing helpers, people who are eager, to in reality stress a law of righteousness: Obey the law or stand condemned.

Now I asked Lord Jesus for an answer to what you are presenting and this is what he gave me: Luke 23:41-43, The thief that was crucified with Lord Jesus that recognized that Lord Jesus was without sin and asked Lord Jesus to remember him, "When You come to your Kingdom." was told by Lord Jesus, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." No Holy Spirit was involved with this, this was something that was just between Lord Jesus and a sinner. So from this we see that direct intervention by Lord Jesus on the behalf of a sinner can happen. And that that intervention by Lord Jesus can result in that sinner ending up with Lord Jesus in Paradise.

Aryeh · Dec 19, 2016

Haramis said:
One of the major problems with thinking that the Sabbath must be kept on Saturday in 2016, is that the "7th day" of the week today, isn't even on the same day as it was in Moses's time. That day got shifted around numerous times over the years.

God actually tells you EXACTLY when the Sabbath is, the first day of the first month is, and how to tell when a month ends and begins. None of it included gregorian or Julian calendar days. The Sabbath moves around every year depending on celestial mechanics, seasons and astronomical events.

The first new moon after the barley turns green is the first day of the first month of the year. Six days after that is the Sabbath. That could be a sunday, Wednezday, or friday. It is laid out very clearly by God; in fact, the watching to determine time is supposed to be a serious task.

stuart lawrence · Dec 19, 2016

tucker58 said:
QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 70560883, member: 381615"]Ye MUST be born again.
It is not an option, it I pivotal. Jesus can only be your saviour from sin/ transgression of the law if you have been born again, for he will be no ones saviour from sin unless they in their heart want to live as his father desires them to[/QUOTE

QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 70560899, member: 381615"]Satan obviously does not want sins true power removed from the believer. He appears to have a lot of willing helpers, people who are eager, to in reality stress a law of righteousness:
Obey the law or stand condemned[/QUOTE

QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 70560883, member: 381615"]The new covenant comes in two parts. You cant explain the first part to me and reject the second part

I will write my laws in their minds and place them on their hearts
Then he adds
Their sins and lawless deeds I will remember no more.

You only get the second part as the first has taken place.[/QUOTE

QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 70560883, member: 381615"]You are supernaturally born again of the holy spirit at conversion. He enters your life and writes the law on your mind God desires you to keep and places it on your heart. You in your mind instinctively know how God wants you to live and in your heart you want to obey. Through this law placed within you, you have heartfelt conviction of your sin. You no longer live according to your own particular Moral compass, doing what you want, you seek to live a life according to what God desires. In this sense you have been born again of the Spirit.[/QUOTE

QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 70565693, member: 381615"]As from your post, I see you have not understood what I have written, respectfully I will not respond to your post, and most likely cause you further misunderstanding of my POV
God bless[/QUOTE

Stuart Lawrence, I think that I do understand what you are saying and it is ok if you do not respond to my post. All is well . The problem is that what you are saying, as a absolute, adds up to: most Christians that come under today's traditional beliefs do not come under the salvation of Christ Jesus. Stuart Lawence, I have spent a lot of my life wrestling with what you are presenting. I came to the same conclusion that you have come to over thirty years ago. And I also agree with: Satan obviously does not want sins true power removed from the believer. He appears to have a lot of willing helpers, people who are eager, to in reality stress a law of righteousness: Obey the law or stand condemned.

Now I asked Lord Jesus for an answer to what you are presenting and this is what he gave me: Luke 23:41-43, The thief that was crucified with Lord Jesus that recognized that Lord Jesus was without sin and asked Lord Jesus to remember him, "When You come to your Kingdom." was told by Lord Jesus, "Truly I say to you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise." No Holy Spirit was involved with this, this was something that was just between Lord Jesus and a sinner. So from this we see that direct intervention by Lord Jesus on the behalf of a sinner can happen. And that that intervention by Lord Jesus can result in that sinner ending up with Lord Jesus in Paradise.

The thief died whilst the old covenant was in operation.
No one can be a christian unless the Holy Spirit dwells in them( rom8:9)

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 20, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
The thief died whilst the old covenant was in operation.

I said it before. I'll shout it this time,

The thief died whilst the NEW Covenant was in operation!

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 20, 2016

Aryeh said:
God actually tells you EXACTLY when the Sabbath is, the first day of the first month is, and how to tell when a month ends and begins. None of it included gregorian or Julian calendar days. The Sabbath moves around every year depending on celestial mechanics, seasons and astronomical events.

You know it as well as I do, that you are talking about the few "sabbaths YOU must determine and, proclaim, according to THEIR seasons".

Don't you get tired, bored, and aren't you embarrassed by talking and talking, year in and year out, and ages in and ages out, twisting and twirling and curling God's Word with the witch's comb -- I think in the story of Alice in wonderland?

Well, this is the world God created in six days, the world, in which the Seventh Day was the day directly after.
This is neither the world of the Gregorian calendar nor of Alice's wonderment, nor of the moon that never for once "ruled" a day of its first week or weeks after.

stuart lawrence · Dec 20, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
I said it before. I'll shout it this time,

The thief died whilst the NEW Covenant was in operation!

Really?
The NC began when Christ rose from the dead!!!

stuart lawrence · Dec 20, 2016

And if Christ has not been raised your faith is futile; you are still in your sins
1cor15:17

The resurrection of Christ was needed. Without that, your faith is useless and you are still in your sins.

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 20, 2016

Aryeh said:
the watching to determine time is supposed to be a serious task.

...for today's Nicolaitan Judaists "who say they are Jews but aren't Jews", who insist on staying under the Torah Law and JUST LIKE HEATHEN GENTILES, "superstitiously worship days, months, seasons, years", having "turned back to their former rudimentary no-gods IDOLS again".

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 20, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
Really?
The NC began when Christ rose from the dead!!!

Jesus all the time was, God's NEW Covenant of Grace and <operated>, that is, executed / fulfilled/ finished / perfected, "WROUGHT" it, every step of the Way to The End of God's Eternal Council and Purpose.

stuart lawrence · Dec 20, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Jesus all the time was, God's NEW Covenant of Grace and <operated>, that is, executed / fulfilled/ finished / perfected, "WROUGHT" it, every step of the Way to The End of God's Eternal Council and Purpose.

The NC still started once Christ was resurrected, NOT when he died on the cross

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 20, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
And if Christ has not been raised your faith is futile; you are still in your sins
1cor15:17

The resurrection of Christ was needed. Without that, your faith is useless and you are still in your sins.

Amen!

And that's why "for the People of God", Jesus' Resurrection is ALL that gives meaning and usefulness to the Sabbath, to "remember" it for.

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 20, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
Which commands?

Imagine you tell God, <<Which commands?>>!

Don't ask; just obey and do!

stuart lawrence · Dec 20, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Imagine you tell God, <<Which commands?>>!

Don't ask; just obey and do!

Quite right!

Never have an impure thought
Never look at a woman with lust in your eye
Never break the law relating to the inner man, the law only God need know you break.
Never fail to love those who malign you, slander you, mistreat you, steal from you etc

Otherwise, we are not obeying and doing are we?

You didn't overlook any of the above did you when stating we must obey and do?

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 20, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
Quite right!

Never have an impure thought
Never look at a woman with lust in your eye
Never break the law relating to the inner man, the law only God need know you break.
Never fail to love those who malign you, slander you, mistreat you, steal from you etc

Otherwise, we are not obeying and doing are we?

You didn't overlook any of the above did you when stating we must obey and do?

I'm sorry, but no. If the Lord Jesus tells you, Obey my Commandments, you will -- you must -- know, <which commandments>.
Let the Lord do the reading of the thoughts of man; let man just do what the Lord commanded.
It is obvious what -- which law -- the Lord must be commanding you which you would not, cannot, shall not for your life ever, of your own obey and DO. It is written in bold WITH every post you place, IN every argument you raise in objection, and THROUGH every indication of your preferments and dislikes.

How would anyone fail to notice? But I (for example) have no dispute with or dislike in you; that's why I don't feel a feather move from your excitement. But it is crystal clear you have an issue with the SDA. For which I do not and cannot blame you. I've gone through it all halve a century ago. Man, did I love them! Was I one of and with them! But it is past now, thank God.
Now for me to live and to die is Christ Jesus the Resurrection and the Life. Come Lord Jesus, come quickly!

Don't worry, friend, brother, fellow sufferer for the suffering of our Lord Jesus Christ. He completed all our suffering and now we are privileged to share in his, FOR HIS SAKE, AND FOR THE SAKE OF THE WORD OF GOD, THE SCRIPTURES. (This comes from Revelation somewhere if I am not mistaken.)

So, for a last thought on the thief on the cross, THAT DAY (BONE-DAY of the Last Suffering of Yahweh) the thief indeed was, with Jesus, in Paradise, the Kingdom of the Father of Jesus Christ, TRIUMPHING ON THE BATTLEFIELD OF HELL, IN THAT DAY, THROUGH AND WITH THE PRINCE OF PEACE! ALLELUIAH!
This was what the whole Old Testament would be about and this is what the whole New Testament has been about.

stuart lawrence · Dec 20, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
I'm sorry, but no. If the Lord Jesus tells you, Obey my Commandments, you will -- you must -- know, <which commandments>.
Let the Lord do the reading of the thoughts of man; let man just do what the Lord commanded.
It is obvious what -- which law -- the Lord must be commanding you which you would not, cannot, shall not for your life ever, of your own obey and DO. It is written in bold WITH every post you place, IN every argument you raise in objection, and THROUGH every indication of your preferments and dislikes.

How would anyone fail to notice? But I (for example) have no dispute with or dislike in you; that's why I don't feel a feather move from your excitement. But it is crystal clear you have an issue with the SDA. For which I do not and cannot blame you. I've gone through it all halve a century ago. Man, did I love them! Was I one of and with them! But it is past now, thank God.
Now for me to live and to die is Christ Jesus the Resurrection and the Life. Come Lord Jesus, come quickly!

Don't worry, friend, brother, fellow sufferer for the suffering of our Lord Jesus Christ. He completed all our suffering and now we are privileged to share in his, FOR HIS SAKE, AND FOR THE SAKE OF THE WORD OF GOD, THE SCRIPTURES. (This comes from Revelation somewhere if I am not mistaken.)

So, for a last thought on the thief on the cross, THAT DAY (BONE-DAY of the Last Suffering of Yahweh) the thief indeed was, with Jesus, in Paradise, the Kingdom of the Father of Jesus Christ, TRIUMPHING ON THE BATTLEFIELD OF HELL, IN THAT DAY, THROUGH AND WITH THE PRINCE OF PEACE! ALLELUIAH!
This was what the whole Old Testament would be about and this is what the whole New Testament has been about.

I can assure you the examples I gave of law to obey are part of the TC &second most important commandment
And the thief was in paradise with Jesus when he died at Calvary, NOT Heaven

tucker58 · Dec 20, 2016

QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 70575451, member: 381615"]I can assure you the examples I gave of law to obey are part of the TC &second most important commandment
And the thief was in paradise with Jesus when he died at Calvary, NOT Heaven[/QUOTE

Well Stuart Lawrence, your "NOT Heaven" point is where things get interesting

. Heaven and Paradise are two different places. And Christ Jesus is present in both places.

QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 70571716, member: 381615"]No one can be a christian unless the Holy Spirit dwells in them( rom8:9)[/QUOTE

And according to you Stuart Lawrence, if this Helper and Teacher is in you are changed instantly and you no longer sin. If you do sin or have to battle the desire to sin, in anyway, no matter how small, then this Helper and Teacher is not in you and you do not come under the salvation of Christ Jesus (therefore are not a Christian).

Wow! Stuart Lawrence, I am glad that it is you that is trying to explain to most of Christianity, both past and present, that they are not Christians and that they do not come under the salvation of Christ Jesus

. Because, the Law under the interpretation of Stuart Lawrence says that very thing. And we have to take this seriously because Stuart Lawrence has the Law written in his heart by the Holy Spirit and he is an example of that Law (he no longer sins or battles the desire to sin). Otherwise, under "Faith" he would not have written "Christian."

Well how does that affect me personally

? I don't know, I suppose I would have to say that I have a years and years long relationship with Lord Jesus and I love and trust Him. And that Satan has presented to me for most of my life, for over sixty years now, that I come up short for the same reasons that Stuart Lawrence has presented in this topic and that I do not come under the salvation of Lord Jesus. So anyway this whole thing is not a real shock to me

. I know that I am going to Paradise because of my love for Lord Jesus and because of that which is in my heart and that I will still be with Lord Jesus, which is all I really want/desire. Lord Jesus took me to see first level Heaven one time and I was there about fifteen minutes and was then bumped down into Paradise. I have had a look at Heaven and I am just not worthy. Those people are so beautiful and so pure and so filled with love. I do not care where I am as long as Lord Jesus is there and there is nothing that Satan can say that will ever separate me from my love for Lord Jesus.

Stuart Lawrence, I am happy that you have been welcomed into the ranks of the High Ups in Heaven and the Divine even if I am not and might never be. But all I desire is to be with Lord Jesus whether it is here, Paradise, or Heaven. So I might not be a Christian or have the right to call myself a Christian, but I am happy, I love my Master and Lord Christ Jesus and He loves me.

stuart lawrence · Dec 20, 2016

tucker58 said:
QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 70575451, member: 381615"]I can assure you the examples I gave of law to obey are part of the TC &second most important commandment
And the thief was in paradise with Jesus when he died at Calvary, NOT Heaven[/QUOTE

Well Stuart Lawrence, your "NOT Heaven" point is where things get interesting . Heaven and Paradise are two different places. And Christ Jesus is present in both places.

QUOTE="stuart lawrence, post: 70571716, member: 381615"]No one can be a christian unless the Holy Spirit dwells in them( rom8:9)[/QUOTE

And according to you Stuart Lawrence, if this Helper and Teacher is in you are changed instantly and you no longer sin. If you do sin or have to battle the desire to sin, in anyway, no matter how small, then this Helper and Teacher is not in you and you do not come under the salvation of Christ Jesus (therefore are not a Christian).

Wow! Stuart Lawrence, I am glad that it is you that is trying to explain to most of Christianity, both past and present, that they are not Christians and that they do not come under the salvation of Christ Jesus . Because, the Law under the interpretation of Stuart Lawrence says that very thing. And we have to take this seriously because Stuart Lawrence has the Law written in his heart by the Holy Spirit and he is an example of that Law (he no longer sins or battles the desire to sin). Otherwise, under "Faith" he would not have written "Christian."

Well how does that affect me personally ? I don't know, I suppose I would have to say that I have a years and years long relationship with Lord Jesus and I love and trust Him. And that Satan has presented to me for most of my life, for over sixty years now, that I come up short for the same reasons that Stuart Lawrence has presented in this topic and that I do not come under the salvation of Lord Jesus. So anyway this whole thing is not a real shock to me . I know that I am going to Paradise because of my love for Lord Jesus and because of that which is in my heart and that I will still be with Lord Jesus, which is all I really want/desire. Lord Jesus took me to see first level Heaven one time and I was there about fifteen minutes and was then bumped down into Paradise. I have had a look at Heaven and I am just not worthy. Those people are so beautiful and so pure and so filled with love. I do not care where I am as long as Lord Jesus is there and there is nothing that Satan can say that will ever separate me from my love for Lord Jesus.

Stuart Lawrence, I am happy that you have been welcomed into the ranks of the High Ups in Heaven and the Divine even if I am not and might never be. But all I desire is to be with Lord Jesus whether it is here, Paradise, or Heaven. So I might not be a Christian or have the right to call myself a Christian, but I am happy, I love my Master and Lord Christ Jesus and He loves me.

I wont respond to what you wrote concerning my second quoted text as it Is clear from what you wrote you do not understand what i believe concerning that.
Concerning your first response.
When Mary saw Jesus after he had risen he told her not to touch him, for he had ?NOT YET ascended to the father( in heaven)

He also told his disciples he would be in the heart of the earth for three days and three nights

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 20, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
And the thief was in paradise with Jesus when he died at Calvary, NOT Heaven

Sure; right in the heartland of the Kingdom of God's dear Son and his Father. Paradise, where Adam handed rule over to satan, the Far Land where Christ wrested the keys of life and death from the devil's grip and he like a streak of lightning from Heaven fell to Hell like letters through the internet onto your computer screen on the other side of the world.

stuart lawrence · Dec 20, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Sure; right in the heartland of the Kingdom of God's dear Son and his Father. Paradise, where Adam handed rule over to satan, the Far Land where Christ wrested the keys of life and death from the devil's grip and he like a streak of lightning from Heaven fell to Hell like letters through the internet onto your computer screen on the other side of the world.

And seeing this before he spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption
Acts2:31

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 20, 2016

Other places and names where hell was...
The Table; the Dark Creek; the Olive Press; the Mount; the high priests'; king Herod's; Pilate's; field of Simon of Cyrene; Cobblestones Way; the Gate; Scull Hill; The Tree; Three Hours Darkness; when God with death "loosed the pains of death".

A Very Valid Point

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