A Very Valid Point

stuart lawrence · Dec 13, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
I agree 100%; I don't even have no <<Hmmmm>>. Now what does this fact tell us about your question, <<stuart lawrence said: ↑
Why are sinful passions aroused in people by the law if they live under it? Rom7:5>>. Do you claim that if people don't live under the law, that <<sinful passions>> are not <<aroused in people by the law>>?

With "sinful passions" I understand to be convinced of sin in one's heart. Therefore, Do you claim that if people don't live under the law, that they are not "convinced of sin in their heart"?

But let the Scriptures bring an end to such vain contemplation. It declares the Holy Spirit convinces the sinner of sins in his heart. Not the Law. Not the Law any longer! Not since Christ and "grace came"! Because now it is GOD'S LOVE which in one's heart is the LAW that arouses in the heart, soul and mind, an acute awareness of one's sin and sinfulness, and total reliance on God's grace for forgiveness -- forgiveness of both one's sins and, oneself!

So does the SCRIPTURES answer every one of Stuart Lawrence's quasi logical presuppositions. And prove them NONSENSICAL and, plain false. And so, with Scripture, is God's Law, vindicated, not annulled.

For I would not have known lust except the law had said. Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence
Rom7:8

For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies bearing fruit for death
Rom7:5

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace

Rom6:14

Righttruth · Dec 13, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
It is the most difficult if not the impossible thing for posters to stay on topic. It is proven in virtually every thread on internet forums, no matter what the subject. But Christian discussions are the worst by far.

See this post by myself, for example? If I ignored you, I would have stayed on topic.

It was about Sabbath, basically. I have commented on that. How can that be off topic?

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 13, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
Well if you want the detailed explanation I would have to copy/ paste it from a computer. But here is something to think about, if you are willing

If I said to you:
If you think of a pink rabbit God will condemn you to hell, what is the first thought that would come into your head if you believed me?

How can I believe you if I cannot understand you?

stuart lawrence · Dec 13, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
How can I believe you if I cannot understand you?

Pray for eyes that see and ears that hear

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 13, 2016

Righttruth said:
It was about Sabbath, basically. I have commented on that. How can that be off topic?

Your post#3 was no comment on Stuart Lawrence's presuppositions listed in post#1.

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 13, 2016

stuart lawrence said:
For I would not have known lust except the law had said. Thou shalt not covet. But sin, taking occasion by the commandment wrought in me all manner of concupiscence
Rom7:8

For when we were controlled by the sinful nature, the sinful passions aroused by the law were at work in our bodies bearing fruit for death
Rom7:5

For sin shall no longer be your master, for you are not under law but under grace

Rom6:14

Good to see you can quote Scripture; and that, relevant Scripture!

You must not forget, Paul brings the Gospel to heathen, and that he was an unbeliever, himself an Israelite under the Law. Paul only knew the Law before he became a Christian. The Law was Paul's point of reference and worldview ... at first! But that changed, and Paul became the preacher of Jesus Christ the Point of reference and worldview in everything in his life and thoughts and feelings and deeds. Paul adopted Jesus' own teaching, the teaching of Himself. Jesus taught that He draws everyone to the Father and that the Father draws everyone to Him, Jesus God's Son. Jesus taught the Holy Spirit convinces of sin and does not testify or witness of Himself, but of Him, Jesus God's Son.

Therefore Paul explained to the first timers the gentiles how he, at first, was driven to Christ by the whip of the Law. But Christ freed him of the tyranny of the Law by having atoned for his transgressions of the Law, also by having given him victory over his natural desires after sin that were "aroused by the Law". Christ set Paul free where the Law used to condemn him and keep him in the bondage of the inevitability and inescapability of the reward and wages of sin, death.

Of course that did not remain the condition and state of Paul's life. The Law stopped to be Pauls' disciplinarian when he became a disciple of Jesus Christ. This was what Paul taught the Gentile heathen unbelievers. The Law no longer dictated; a good conscience and the peace Christ brought into his life, led and motivated and inspired and encouraged the new Paul no longer Saul. The Law for Paul has waxed old and retired. He respected the Law the more for its good service and wisdom and honourability. Paul NEVER, looked down upon the Law, ever, well realising it was God's Law after all. But Jesus Christ ascended the Law's throne in Paul's heart while the Law abdicated, lifting songs of praise and honour to the Prince and King who took in its place. The Law NEVER dishonoured its Giver. And the Author and Finisher of the Law, NEVER dishonoured its old locum tenens. In his life or teaching, Paul never turned against the Law, because Paul, like Jesus Christ, taught at the impulse of the Holy Spirit of God.

Posing animosity between the leadership and empowerment of the Holy Spirit or of Jesus Christ or of the heavenly Father and the Law of and according to the Scriptures whichever Old or New Testament, is an in advance DOOMED campaign.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 13, 2016

We are not under the Old Law anymore. For the Scriptures say the Law has changed (Hebrews 7:12). The Old Law had many requirements that have been clearly changed by the Laws or Commands in the New Covenant (or New Testament). Jesus said to turn the other cheek instead of an eye for an eye. The temple veil was torn from top to bottom when Christ died upon the cross. This had let us know that the priests and the animal sacrifices are no longer acceptable to GOD anymore. Jesus is now our perfect sacrifice and Heavenly high priest. Peter was told to eat unclean animals in a vision (Which was a violation of OT Law). Circumcision was a requirement under the Old Law. Yet, Paul says to those in his letter that if they be circumcised, Christ shall profit them nothing. In regards to the Saturday Sabbath: Paul told us that some regard all days a like and others regard one day over another. Paul then said we are to be convinved in our own minds on this. Paul also said we are not to judge according to Sabbaths, too. So if the Saturday Sabbath Command was still binding, Paul would not have said these things.

Also, when Paul talks about the Law, he generally is talking about the Old Law or the Torah Law (Which is made up of 613 Commands). These Commands were given to Israel and not the Gentiles. With the exception of the story of Jonah, generally if a Gentile wanted to be saved, they would become a Jew or an Israelite. But we do not have to become Israelites to be saved anymore. We become joint heirs of Israel when we repent of our sins to Jesus and accept Him as our Savior.

Now, a common misunderstanding by Christians today is that they think we are not under any kind of Law in relation to our salvation. But this would not be true. Believers follow the Commands in the New Testament as a part of walking after the Spirit in Christ Jesus. Granted, we are not save by law keeping alone. That would be silly. We are ultimately saved by Jesus Christ and His works (Both in Justification and in Sanctification). We are initially and ultimately saved by repenting of our sins, by accepting (or abiding) in Jesus, and by believing that Christ's death and resurrection saves us (Justification). We remained saved by continuing in Christ by allowing Him to do the good work thru our hearts and lives thru obedience to His Word (Sanctification). This then leads to Final Stage of Salvation (Glorification) when the LORD saves us by taking us home one day.

...

Bible Highlighter · Dec 13, 2016

As for Romans 7:

Well, in the bulk of Romans 7, Paul is talking from his perspective as a Pharisee (who struggled to keep the Law by his own ability alone) before he became a Christian. Paul's conclusion as a Christian is that he is thankful for Christ Jesus who can deliver him from his struggle with sin (Romans 7:25). For Galatians 5:24 says, they that are Christ's have crucified the affections and lusts. Romans 8:1 says, For there is no condemnation those who are in Christ Jesus who WALK not after the flesh but after the Spirit. Romans 8:2 says, For the law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus has made me free from the Law of Sin and Death. What is the Law of Sin and Death? The Law of Moses, the Torah, or the Old Covenant Law. Meaning, we can overcome the righteousness aspect part of the Law (that still applies) by abiding in Jesus (See Romans 13:8-10).

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit." (Romans 8:4).

...

tucker58 · Dec 13, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Good to see you can quote Scripture; and that, relevant Scripture!

You must not forget, Paul brings the Gospel to heathen, and that he was an unbeliever, himself an Israelite under the Law. Paul only knew the Law before he became a Christian. The Law was Paul's point of reference and worldview ... at first! But that changed, and Paul became the preacher of Jesus Christ the Point of reference and worldview in everything in his life and thoughts and feelings and deeds. Paul adopted Jesus' own teaching, the teaching of Himself. Jesus taught that He draws everyone to the Father and that the Father draws everyone to Him, Jesus God's Son. Jesus taught the Holy Spirit convinces of sin and does not testify or witness of Himself, but of Him, Jesus God's Son.

Therefore Paul explained to the first timers the gentiles how he, at first, was driven to Christ by the whip of the Law. But Christ freed him of the tyranny of the Law by having atoned for his transgressions of the Law, also by having given him victory over his natural desires after sin that were "aroused by the Law". Christ set Paul free where the Law used to condemn him and keep him in the bondage of the inevitability and inescapability of the reward and wages of sin, death.

Of course that did not remain the condition and state of Paul's life. The Law stopped to be Pauls' disciplinarian when he became a disciple of Jesus Christ. This was what Paul taught the Gentile heathen unbelievers. The Law no longer dictated; a good conscience and the peace Christ brought into his life, led and motivated and inspired and encouraged the new Paul no longer Saul. The Law for Paul has waxed old and retired. He respected the Law the more for its good service and wisdom and honourability. Paul NEVER, looked down upon the Law, ever, well realising it was God's Law after all. But Jesus Christ ascended the Law's throne in Paul's heart while the Law abdicated, lifting songs of praise and honour to the Prince and King who took in its place. The Law NEVER dishonoured its Giver. And the Author and Finisher of the Law, NEVER dishonoured its old locum tenens. In his life or teaching, Paul never turned against the Law, because Paul, like Jesus Christ, taught at the impulse of the Holy Spirit of God.

Posing animosity between the leadership and empowerment of the Holy Spirit or of Jesus Christ or of the heavenly Father and the Law of and according the Scriptures whichever Old or New Testament, is an in advance DOOMED campaign.

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Presuppositions,

<<believed the law>>
<<the law concerning observing a specific (law)>>
<<believe the law ... is within you>>
<<through the law placed within you, you become conscious of sin>>
<<believe every christian is conscious>>
<<(being) conscious they sin>>
<<sin by failing to observe a specific (law)>>

One by one ... are these presuppositions (conclusions) legitimate or not legitimate?

By legitimate, I mean, shown legitimate or not legitimate with, Scripture; not with logic. The presuppositions already supplied all necessary logic.

I think that the just of this whole thing is that you no longer eat from the Tree of the "Knowledge" of Good and Evil. Paul understood this and attempted to explain it through his actions as an example and through his words. The problem is that if one has not been "Thumped" (or cleansed, so to speak) by the Holy spirit, as Paul was, then the whole concept is practically impossible to understand. This is because, having the "innocence of a child" makes no logical sense to one that is born of and is a part of this world. The reason for this is, "How do you function without judging things?" And because, the knowledge of the Holy Spirit is not about "logic", it is about a state being the transcends logic. When you question each others logic you miss the whole point of things. You anchor yourselves in judgement as a part of this world of things when the point of things is, to be in this world but not of it.

Bible Highlighter · Dec 13, 2016

God gave us a mind to think logically. This would not be in opposition to God's Word. Thinking logically can lead us to do the right thing. Don't touch that stove because it is hot, etc. Now, can God ask us to do things that may not always make sense entirely? Yes. But it will not be completely irrational. There has to be some level of logic to it. Why? Because the LORD our GOD is logical and good.

...

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 13, 2016

tucker58 said:
I think that the just of this whole thing is that you no longer eat from the Tree of the "Knowledge" of Good and Evil. Paul understood this and attempted to explain it through his actions as an example and through his words. The problem is that if one has not been "Thumped" (or cleansed, so to speak) by the Holy spirit, as Paul was, then the whole concept is practically impossible to understand. This is because, having the "innocence of a child" makes no logical sense to one that is born of and is a part of this world. The reason for this is, "How do you function without judging things?" And because, the knowledge of the Holy Spirit is not about "logic", it is about a state being the transcends logic. When you question each others logic you miss the whole point of things. You anchor yourselves in judgement as a part of this world of things when the point of things is, to be in this world but not of it.

I asked for not logic, but Scripture. You obtrude your spirit. No thanks; not for me.

RC1970 · Dec 13, 2016

Is pretentiousness a sin? Just wondering...

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 13, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Peter was told to eat unclean animals in a vision (Which was a violation of OT Law).

Off topic. Nevertheless, just asking, So, did Peter eat? No. Did Peter afterwards apply his lesson through the vision? He did. How? To things he ate? No; to people.

Therefore, what lesson did you learn from Peter's vision? Not that I care, really.
I know in Whom I believe and my dad taught me to believe in.

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 13, 2016

RC1970 said:
Is pretentiousness a sin? Just wondering...

What is pretentiousness?

Bible Highlighter · Dec 13, 2016

Without logic or a sound mind, there is no way to properly understand the Scriptures. Surely, if we did not use reason or logic in studying the Scriptures, we would believe and do all sorts of crazy things that the Bible appears to say at first glance when in reality such a thing would not be true.

Here are a few Scriptures that people commonly misunderstand.

Luke 11:9 and Jeremiah 29:11 sound like they could be used to support the prosperity gospel, but they don't.

Matthew 7:1 is often used by Christians who think we cannot judge each other within the faith.

Proverbs 23:7 is misused by people that think we can speak things into existence or that our thinking determines our future.

Malachi 3:8-10 is misued by churches that they must tithe even though this tithe was given to Israel and not the church.

...

Bible Highlighter · Dec 13, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Off topic.

You said that what I had written was "off topic" and yet you immediately turned around and started to talk about Peter's vision (Which appears to be off topic). I take your original post as you having a problem with a certain poster in his dealing with their defense on the Saturday Sabbath as still being in effect (Side Note: I believe the Saturday Sabbath is no longer binding or a requirement but it can be observed). Anyways, does your original post also include the topic of talking about Peter's vision? If not, then you would be wrong for saying that I am off topic when you are also going off topic, too.

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Nevertheless, just asking, So, did Peter eat? No. Did Peter afterwards apply his lesson through the vision? He did. How? To things he ate? No; to people.

Uh, it was a message with a double meaning. In addition to GOD telling Peter to accept the Gentiles, GOD was also telling Peter to eat unclean animals. We know this because Paul says this:

4 "For every creature of God is good, and nothing to be refused, if it be received with thanksgiving:
5 For it is sanctified by the word of God and prayer."
(1 Timothy 4:4-5).

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Therefore, what lesson did you learn from Peter's vision?

See above.

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Not that I care, really.

You should care if you are a Christian.

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
I know in Whom I believe and my dad taught me to believe in.

Are you new to the faith?

...

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 13, 2016

Jason0047 said:
God gave us a mind to think logically. This would not be in opposition to God's Word. Thinking logically can lead us to do the right thing. Don't touch that stove because it is hot, etc. Now, can God ask us to do things that may not always make sense entirely? Yes. But it will not be completely irrational. There has to be some level of logic to it. Why? Because the LORD our GOD is logical and good. ...

Yours is a very high opinion of (our) logic. Note though, I said the presuppositions were enough of logic. Too much of a good thing ...

stuart lawrence · Dec 13, 2016

Gerhard Ebersoehn said:
Good to see you can quote Scripture; and that, relevant Scripture!

You must not forget, Paul brings the Gospel to heathen, and that he was an unbeliever, himself an Israelite under the Law. Paul only knew the Law before he became a Christian. The Law was Paul's point of reference and worldview ... at first! But that changed, and Paul became the preacher of Jesus Christ the Point of reference and worldview in everything in his life and thoughts and feelings and deeds. Paul adopted Jesus' own teaching, the teaching of Himself. Jesus taught that He draws everyone to the Father and that the Father draws everyone to Him, Jesus God's Son. Jesus taught the Holy Spirit convinces of sin and does not testify or witness of Himself, but of Him, Jesus God's Son.

Therefore Paul explained to the first timers the gentiles how he, at first, was driven to Christ by the whip of the Law. But Christ freed him of the tyranny of the Law by having atoned for his transgressions of the Law, also by having given him victory over his natural desires after sin that were "aroused by the Law". Christ set Paul free where the Law used to condemn him and keep him in the bondage of the inevitability and inescapability of the reward and wages of sin, death.

Of course that did not remain the condition and state of Paul's life. The Law stopped to be Pauls' disciplinarian when he became a disciple of Jesus Christ. This was what Paul taught the Gentile heathen unbelievers. The Law no longer dictated; a good conscience and the peace Christ brought into his life, led and motivated and inspired and encouraged the new Paul no longer Saul. The Law for Paul has waxed old and retired. He respected the Law the more for its good service and wisdom and honourability. Paul NEVER, looked down upon the Law, ever, well realising it was God's Law after all. But Jesus Christ ascended the Law's throne in Paul's heart while the Law abdicated, lifting songs of praise and honour to the Prince and King who took in its place. The Law NEVER dishonoured its Giver. And the Author and Finisher of the Law, NEVER dishonoured its old locum tenens. In his life or teaching, Paul never turned against the Law, because Paul, like Jesus Christ, taught at the impulse of the Holy Spirit of God.

Posing animosity between the leadership and empowerment of the Holy Spirit or of Jesus Christ or of the heavenly Father and the Law of and according to the Scriptures whichever Old or New Testament, is an in advance DOOMED campaign.

The Pharisees accused Jesus of ignoring the law

One of the reasons Stephen the first Christian martyr was arrested, was because he was supposedly speaking against the law.

Paul stated:
Brothers if I was still preaching circumcision ( ie law) I would not be persecuted, for then the offence of the cross us abolished gal5:11

The religious in NT times who had closed their ears and shut their eyes to the truth persecuted those who accepted and followed the truth. The charge was always the same:
You are ignoring, or speaking against the law.

The same happens today of course. Those with eyes shut and ears closed accuse those who accept the truth of ignoring, or speaking against the law, DONT THEY!

Question

Why is not preaching law the true offence of the cross?

I don't believe you can answer that

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 13, 2016

Jason0047 said:
I take your original post as you having a problem with a certain poster in his dealing with their defense of the Saturday Sabbath.

The other way round, the poster's objections to the Sabbath.

Gerhard Ebersoehn · Dec 13, 2016

Jason0047 said:
You said that what I had written was "off topic" and yet you immediately turned around and started to talk about Peter's vision (Which appears to be off topic).

"Always be ready to give reason for the faith that in you is."

A Very Valid Point

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