THE TITHES

alex2165 · Oct 17, 2016

TITHES

Leviticus 27.30-34

30.Thus all the tithe of the land, of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's, it is holy to the Lord.

31.If therefore, a man wishes to redeem part of his tithe, he shall add to it one-fifth of it.

32.And for every tenth part of herd or flock, whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the Lord.

33.he is not to be concerned whether it is good or bad, nor shall he exchange it, or if he does exchange it, then both it and its substitute shall become holy. It shall not be redeemed."

Deuteronomy 12.6.11.28

6.And there you shall bring burn offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the contribution of your hand, your votive offerings, your freewill offerings, and the first-born of your herd and of your flock.

11.then it shall come about that the place in which the Lord your GOD shall choose for His name to dwell, there you shall bring all that I command you, your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the contribution of your hand, and all your choice votive offerings which you will vow to the Lord.

Deuteronomy 14.22-24.28

22.You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow which comes out of the field every year.

23.And you shall eat in the presence of the Lord your GOD, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the first-born of your herd and your flock, in order that you may learn to fear the Lord your GOD always.

24.And if the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the Lord your GOD chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the Lord your GOD blesses you,

28.At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town.

Deuteronomy 26.12

12.When you have finished paying all the tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan, and to the widow, that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.

2Chronicles 31.5-6.12

5.And as soon as the order spread, the sons of Israel provided in abundance the first fruits of grain, new wine, oil, honey, and of all the produce of the field, and they brought in abundantly the tithe of all.

6.And the sons of Israel and Judah who lived in the cities of Judah, also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of sacred gifts which were consecrated to the Lord their GOD, and placed them in heaps.

12.And they faithfully brought in the contributions, and the tithes, and the consecrated things, and Conaniah the Levite was the officer in charge of them, and his brother Shimei was second.

Nehemiah 10.37-38

37.We will also bring the first of our dough, our contributions, the fruit of every tree, the new wine, and the oil, to the priests at the chambers of the House of our GOD, and the tithe of our ground to the Levites, the Levites are they who receive the tithes in all the rural towns.

38.And the priest the sons of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes, and the Levites shall bring up the tenth of the tithes to the House of our GOD, to the chambers of the storehouse.

Nehemiah 12.44

44.On that day men were also appointed over the chambers for the stores, the contributions, the first fruits, and the tithes, to gather into them from the fields of the cities the portions required by the Law, for the priests and Levites, Judah rejoiced over the priests and Levites who served.

Nehemiah 13.4-5

4.No prior to this, Eliashib the priest, who was appointed over the chambers of the House of our GOD, being related to Tobiah,

5.had prepared a large room for him, where formerly they put the grain offerings, the frankincense, the utensils, and the tithes of grain, wine and oil, prescribed for Levites, the singers, and the gatekeepers, and the contributions for the priests.

Amoc 4.4

4.”Enter Bethel (Ephraim) and transgress, in Gilgal (Ephraim) multiply transgression, bring your sacrifices every morning, your tithes every *three days.”

*(it may have been made mistake in translation, tithes have been collected, presented, and given to Levites every three years. Deuteronomy 14.28, 26.12. A.G)

Malachi 3.8-10

8.Will a man rob the GOD? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings.

9.You are cursed with a curse, you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!

10.Bring the whole tithes into the storehouse so that there may be food in My House, and test Me now in this' says the Lord of hosts, 'If I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.

Matthew 23.23

23.”Woe to you scribes and Pharisees hypocrites for you tithe, mint, and dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Law: Justice, and Mercy, and Faithfulness, these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.”

(1Samuel 15.22) (Psalm 51.16-17) (Proverbs 21.3.27) (Ecclesiastes 5.1) (Hosea 6.6) (Isaiah 1.11-20) (Jeremiah 6.20) (Amos 5.21-24) (Micah 6.6-8) (Zechariah 7.2-4.9-10) (Matthew 9.13, 12.7, 23.23) (Mark 12.32-33)

Luke 11.42

42.”But woe to you Pharisees! You pay tithe of mint and rue ("rue - from its thick and fleshly leaves". KSB, Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, page 57), and every kind garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of GOD, but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Luke 18.10-14

10."Two men went up into the Temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax-gatherer.

11.The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself, 'GOD, I thank You that I am not like other people swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer.

12.I fast twice a week, I pay tithes of all that I get.'

13.But the tax-gatherer standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast saying, 'GOD, be merciful to me, the sinner!'

14.I tell you, this man (tax-gatherer) went down to his house justified rather than the other (Pharisee), everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."

(Job 22.29) (Proverbs 29.23) (Matthew 20.25-28, 23.11-12) (Mark 9.35, 10.43-45) (Luke 9.48, 14.11, 18.14, 22.24-27) (1Peter 5.5-6)

Hebrews 7.8-12

8.And in this case mortal men (Levites, descendants of Abraham) receive tithes, but in that case (with Abraham) one receives them of whom it is witnessed that he (Melchizedek) lives on.

9.And so to speak, through Abraham, even Levi who receives tithes, paid tithes (in the past to Melchizedek),

10.for, he (Levi) was still in the loins of his father (Abraham) when Melchizedek met him.

11.Now, if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood, on the basis of it the people received the Law, what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

12.For, when the priesthood is changed of necessity, there takes place a change of Law also.

The Physical tithes collected for physical mortal men, for Levites and for the needy and poor.

The Spiritual tithes such as: Justice, Mercy, Faithfulness (Matthew 23.23), and the love for GOD (Luke 11.42), collected in the hearts of men and presented before GOD in the deeds of Compassion, Mercy, Justice, and Faithfulness, all deriving from the love for GOD. A.G.

2Corinthains 9.6-7

6.Now this I say, he who sows sparingly (carefully, in moderation) shall also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully.

7.Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, GOD loves a cheerful giver.

*("GOD loves a cheerful giver" (2Corinthains 9.6-7), according to the theme of entire chapter, it definitely relates to the contributions of food and other material things needed for the saints, for Apostles of Christ in Jerusalem, who were persecuted for the name of Christ and become in need, mostly of food, which the verses 9-12 in 2Corinthians giving some clues about it, but definitely not the money.

On the other hand, money can be accepted too, but it was not the major driving force of the donations, but mostly food, clothes, and shelter for those who persecuted and in need.

If money ever was donated, money never been donated as a payment for anything, or as a payroll and wages for saints, priests, missionaries, people of GOD, or to any other men who preached and served the Lord, but exclusively in emergency to prevent starvation and poverty, mostly of the missionary like Paul and others, but never as a payment for service or a salary.

So the saying, "GOD loves a cheerful giver", has been taken out of its context by hierarchy of the church, it clergy, by pastors, and by all sorts of preachers, in order to justify their parasitic life style and greed for money, paid to them as their salary from the church business and donations of the parishioners.)

Such practice to collect money for doing the work of GOD already has been condemned in the Old Testament: (Micah 3.11).

Jesus Christ also condemned such practice: (John 10.11-13).

And Apostle Peter specified that money has no part in the work and in the service of the Gospel as a payroll: (1Peter 5.1-4).

Apostle Paul also clarified this subject and presented himself as an example of unconditional and honest worker of Christ in his missionary ministry, who would not accept money for his services for GOD, but the opposite, work with his own hands to support not only himself but even those who were companions with him on his missionary journeys: (Acts 20.33-36).

2Chronicles 24.8-10

8.So the king (Jehoash-Joash, 8th king of Judah) commanded and they made a chest, and set it outside by the gate of the House of the Lord.

9.And they made a proclamation in Judah and Jerusalem to bring to the Lord the levy fixed by Moses, the servant of GOD, on Israel in the wilderness.

10.And all the officers and all the people rejoiced, and brought in their levies and dropped them into the chest, until they had finished.

Proverbs 22.9

9.He who is generous will be blessed, he gives some of his food to the poor. (KSB)

As clearly evident from all the verses above, collecting Tithes in form of money is the invention of the greedy church and has nothing to do with GOD.

AvilaSurfer · Oct 17, 2016

Ok then, let's just take the words of Jesus. Sell everything. Give it all away.

KoiFishCross · Oct 17, 2016

alex2165 said:
TITHES

Leviticus 27.30-34

30.Thus all the tithe of the land, of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's, it is holy to the Lord.

31.If therefore, a man wishes to redeem part of his tithe, he shall add to it one-fifth of it.

32.And for every tenth part of herd or flock, whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the Lord.

33.he is not to be concerned whether it is good or bad, nor shall he exchange it, or if he does exchange it, then both it and its substitute shall become holy. It shall not be redeemed."

Deuteronomy 12.6.11.28

6.And there you shall bring burn offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the contribution of your hand, your votive offerings, your freewill offerings, and the first-born of your herd and of your flock.

11.then it shall come about that the place in which the Lord your GOD shall choose for His name to dwell, there you shall bring all that I command you, your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the contribution of your hand, and all your choice votive offerings which you will vow to the Lord.

Deuteronomy 14.22-24.28

22.You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow which comes out of the field every year.

23.And you shall eat in the presence of the Lord your GOD, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the first-born of your herd and your flock, in order that you may learn to fear the Lord your GOD always.

24.And if the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the Lord your GOD chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the Lord your GOD blesses you,

28.At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town.

Deuteronomy 26.12

12.When you have finished paying all the tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan, and to the widow, that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.

2Chronicles 31.5-6.12

5.And as soon as the order spread, the sons of Israel provided in abundance the first fruits of grain, new wine, oil, honey, and of all the produce of the field, and they brought in abundantly the tithe of all.

6.And the sons of Israel and Judah who lived in the cities of Judah, also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of sacred gifts which were consecrated to the Lord their GOD, and placed them in heaps.

12.And they faithfully brought in the contributions, and the tithes, and the consecrated things, and Conaniah the Levite was the officer in charge of them, and his brother Shimei was second.

Nehemiah 10.37-38

37.We will also bring the first of our dough, our contributions, the fruit of every tree, the new wine, and the oil, to the priests at the chambers of the House of our GOD, and the tithe of our ground to the Levites, the Levites are they who receive the tithes in all the rural towns.

38.And the priest the sons of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes, and the Levites shall bring up the tenth of the tithes to the House of our GOD, to the chambers of the storehouse.

Nehemiah 12.44

44.On that day men were also appointed over the chambers for the stores, the contributions, the first fruits, and the tithes, to gather into them from the fields of the cities the portions required by the Law, for the priests and Levites, Judah rejoiced over the priests and Levites who served.

Nehemiah 13.4-5

4.No prior to this, Eliashib the priest, who was appointed over the chambers of the House of our GOD, being related to Tobiah,

5.had prepared a large room for him, where formerly they put the grain offerings, the frankincense, the utensils, and the tithes of grain, wine and oil, prescribed for Levites, the singers, and the gatekeepers, and the contributions for the priests.

Amoc 4.4

4.”Enter Bethel (Ephraim) and transgress, in Gilgal (Ephraim) multiply transgression, bring your sacrifices every morning, your tithes every *three days.”

*(it may have been made mistake in translation, tithes have been collected, presented, and given to Levites every three years. Deuteronomy 14.28, 26.12. A.G)

Malachi 3.8-10

8.Will a man rob the GOD? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings.

9.You are cursed with a curse, you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!

10.Bring the whole tithes into the storehouse so that there may be food in My House, and test Me now in this' says the Lord of hosts, 'If I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.

Matthew 23.23

23.”Woe to you scribes and Pharisees hypocrites for you tithe, mint, and dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Law: Justice, and Mercy, and Faithfulness, these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.”

(1Samuel 15.22) (Psalm 51.16-17) (Proverbs 21.3.27) (Ecclesiastes 5.1) (Hosea 6.6) (Isaiah 1.11-20) (Jeremiah 6.20) (Amos 5.21-24) (Micah 6.6-8) (Zechariah 7.2-4.9-10) (Matthew 9.13, 12.7, 23.23) (Mark 12.32-33)

Luke 11.42

42.”But woe to you Pharisees! You pay tithe of mint and rue ("rue - from its thick and fleshly leaves". KSB, Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, page 57), and every kind garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of GOD, but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Luke 18.10-14

10."Two men went up into the Temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax-gatherer.

11.The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself, 'GOD, I thank You that I am not like other people swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer.

12.I fast twice a week, I pay tithes of all that I get.'

13.But the tax-gatherer standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast saying, 'GOD, be merciful to me, the sinner!'

14.I tell you, this man (tax-gatherer) went down to his house justified rather than the other (Pharisee), everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."

(Job 22.29) (Proverbs 29.23) (Matthew 20.25-28, 23.11-12) (Mark 9.35, 10.43-45) (Luke 9.48, 14.11, 18.14, 22.24-27) (1Peter 5.5-6)

Hebrews 7.8-12

8.And in this case mortal men (Levites, descendants of Abraham) receive tithes, but in that case (with Abraham) one receives them of whom it is witnessed that he (Melchizedek) lives on.

9.And so to speak, through Abraham, even Levi who receives tithes, paid tithes (in the past to Melchizedek),

10.for, he (Levi) was still in the loins of his father (Abraham) when Melchizedek met him.

11.Now, if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood, on the basis of it the people received the Law, what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

12.For, when the priesthood is changed of necessity, there takes place a change of Law also.

The Physical tithes collected for physical mortal men, for Levites and for the needy and poor.

The Spiritual tithes such as: Justice, Mercy, Faithfulness (Matthew 23.23), and the love for GOD (Luke 11.42), collected in the hearts of men and presented before GOD in the deeds of Compassion, Mercy, Justice, and Faithfulness, all deriving from the love for GOD. A.G.

2Corinthains 9.6-7

6.Now this I say, he who sows sparingly (carefully, in moderation) shall also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully.

7.Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, GOD loves a cheerful giver.

*("GOD loves a cheerful giver" (2Corinthains 9.6-7), according to the theme of entire chapter, it definitely relates to the contributions of food and other material things needed for the saints, for Apostles of Christ in Jerusalem, who were persecuted for the name of Christ and become in need, mostly of food, which the verses 9-12 in 2Corinthians giving some clues about it, but definitely not the money.

On the other hand, money can be accepted too, but it was not the major driving force of the donations, but mostly food, clothes, and shelter for those who persecuted and in need.

If money ever was donated, money never been donated as a payment for anything, or as a payroll and wages for saints, priests, missionaries, people of GOD, or to any other men who preached and served the Lord, but exclusively in emergency to prevent starvation and poverty, mostly of the missionary like Paul and others, but never as a payment for service or a salary.

So the saying, "GOD loves a cheerful giver", has been taken out of its context by hierarchy of the church, it clergy, by pastors, and by all sorts of preachers, in order to justify their parasitic life style and greed for money, paid to them as their salary from the church business and donations of the parishioners.)

Such practice to collect money for doing the work of GOD already has been condemned in the Old Testament: (Micah 3.11).

Jesus Christ also condemned such practice: (John 10.11-13).

And Apostle Peter specified that money has no part in the work and in the service of the Gospel as a payroll: (1Peter 5.1-4).

Apostle Paul also clarified this subject and presented himself as an example of unconditional and honest worker of Christ in his missionary ministry, who would not accept money for his services for GOD, but the opposite, work with his own hands to support not only himself but even those who were companions with him on his missionary journeys: (Acts 20.33-36).

2Chronicles 24.8-10

8.So the king (Jehoash-Joash, 8th king of Judah) commanded and they made a chest, and set it outside by the gate of the House of the Lord.

9.And they made a proclamation in Judah and Jerusalem to bring to the Lord the levy fixed by Moses, the servant of GOD, on Israel in the wilderness.

10.And all the officers and all the people rejoiced, and brought in their levies and dropped them into the chest, until they had finished.

Proverbs 22.9

9.He who is generous will be blessed, he gives some of his food to the poor. (KSB)

As clearly evident from all the verses above, collecting Tithes in form of money is the invention of the greedy church and has nothing to do with GOD.

I have to admit that I have never paid money for a tithe in any church. I have always seen these as contrary to what Christ was teaching. I do offer my time, food, clothes or what I can give. I have given money for specific work in our church, but never a scheduled payment. In one church I even had a fellow deacon chastise me for not tithing 10% of my pay to the church. Left that church soon after.

Jim Langston · Oct 17, 2016

alex2165 said:
TITHES

Leviticus 27.30-34

30.Thus all the tithe of the land, of the seed of the land, or of the fruit of the tree, is the Lord's, it is holy to the Lord.

31.If therefore, a man wishes to redeem part of his tithe, he shall add to it one-fifth of it.

32.And for every tenth part of herd or flock, whatever passes under the rod, the tenth one shall be holy to the Lord.

33.he is not to be concerned whether it is good or bad, nor shall he exchange it, or if he does exchange it, then both it and its substitute shall become holy. It shall not be redeemed."

Deuteronomy 12.6.11.28

6.And there you shall bring burn offerings, your sacrifices, your tithes, the contribution of your hand, your votive offerings, your freewill offerings, and the first-born of your herd and of your flock.

11.then it shall come about that the place in which the Lord your GOD shall choose for His name to dwell, there you shall bring all that I command you, your burnt offerings, and your sacrifices, your tithes, and the contribution of your hand, and all your choice votive offerings which you will vow to the Lord.

Deuteronomy 14.22-24.28

22.You shall surely tithe all the produce from what you sow which comes out of the field every year.

23.And you shall eat in the presence of the Lord your GOD, at the place where He chooses to establish His name, the tithe of your grain, your new wine, your oil, and the first-born of your herd and your flock, in order that you may learn to fear the Lord your GOD always.

24.And if the distance is so great for you that you are not able to bring the tithe, since the place where the Lord your GOD chooses to set His name is too far away from you when the Lord your GOD blesses you,

28.At the end of every third year you shall bring out all the tithe of your produce in that year, and shall deposit it in your town.

Deuteronomy 26.12

12.When you have finished paying all the tithe of your increase in the third year, the year of tithing, then you shall give it to the Levite, to the stranger, to the orphan, and to the widow, that they may eat in your towns and be satisfied.

2Chronicles 31.5-6.12

5.And as soon as the order spread, the sons of Israel provided in abundance the first fruits of grain, new wine, oil, honey, and of all the produce of the field, and they brought in abundantly the tithe of all.

6.And the sons of Israel and Judah who lived in the cities of Judah, also brought in the tithe of oxen and sheep, and the tithe of sacred gifts which were consecrated to the Lord their GOD, and placed them in heaps.

12.And they faithfully brought in the contributions, and the tithes, and the consecrated things, and Conaniah the Levite was the officer in charge of them, and his brother Shimei was second.

Nehemiah 10.37-38

37.We will also bring the first of our dough, our contributions, the fruit of every tree, the new wine, and the oil, to the priests at the chambers of the House of our GOD, and the tithe of our ground to the Levites, the Levites are they who receive the tithes in all the rural towns.

38.And the priest the sons of Aaron, shall be with the Levites when the Levites receive tithes, and the Levites shall bring up the tenth of the tithes to the House of our GOD, to the chambers of the storehouse.

Nehemiah 12.44

44.On that day men were also appointed over the chambers for the stores, the contributions, the first fruits, and the tithes, to gather into them from the fields of the cities the portions required by the Law, for the priests and Levites, Judah rejoiced over the priests and Levites who served.

Nehemiah 13.4-5

4.No prior to this, Eliashib the priest, who was appointed over the chambers of the House of our GOD, being related to Tobiah,

5.had prepared a large room for him, where formerly they put the grain offerings, the frankincense, the utensils, and the tithes of grain, wine and oil, prescribed for Levites, the singers, and the gatekeepers, and the contributions for the priests.

Amoc 4.4

4.”Enter Bethel (Ephraim) and transgress, in Gilgal (Ephraim) multiply transgression, bring your sacrifices every morning, your tithes every *three days.”

*(it may have been made mistake in translation, tithes have been collected, presented, and given to Levites every three years. Deuteronomy 14.28, 26.12. A.G)

Malachi 3.8-10

8.Will a man rob the GOD? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings.

9.You are cursed with a curse, you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!

10.Bring the whole tithes into the storehouse so that there may be food in My House, and test Me now in this' says the Lord of hosts, 'If I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.

Matthew 23.23

23.”Woe to you scribes and Pharisees hypocrites for you tithe, mint, and dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Law: Justice, and Mercy, and Faithfulness, these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.”

(1Samuel 15.22) (Psalm 51.16-17) (Proverbs 21.3.27) (Ecclesiastes 5.1) (Hosea 6.6) (Isaiah 1.11-20) (Jeremiah 6.20) (Amos 5.21-24) (Micah 6.6-8) (Zechariah 7.2-4.9-10) (Matthew 9.13, 12.7, 23.23) (Mark 12.32-33)

Luke 11.42

42.”But woe to you Pharisees! You pay tithe of mint and rue ("rue - from its thick and fleshly leaves". KSB, Greek Dictionary of the New Testament, page 57), and every kind garden herb, and yet disregard justice and the love of GOD, but these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.

Luke 18.10-14

10."Two men went up into the Temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax-gatherer.

11.The Pharisee stood and was praying this to himself, 'GOD, I thank You that I am not like other people swindlers, unjust, adulterers, or even like this tax-gatherer.

12.I fast twice a week, I pay tithes of all that I get.'

13.But the tax-gatherer standing some distance away, was even unwilling to lift up his eyes to heaven, but was beating his breast saying, 'GOD, be merciful to me, the sinner!'

14.I tell you, this man (tax-gatherer) went down to his house justified rather than the other (Pharisee), everyone who exalts himself shall be humbled, but he who humbles himself shall be exalted."

(Job 22.29) (Proverbs 29.23) (Matthew 20.25-28, 23.11-12) (Mark 9.35, 10.43-45) (Luke 9.48, 14.11, 18.14, 22.24-27) (1Peter 5.5-6)

Hebrews 7.8-12

8.And in this case mortal men (Levites, descendants of Abraham) receive tithes, but in that case (with Abraham) one receives them of whom it is witnessed that he (Melchizedek) lives on.

9.And so to speak, through Abraham, even Levi who receives tithes, paid tithes (in the past to Melchizedek),

10.for, he (Levi) was still in the loins of his father (Abraham) when Melchizedek met him.

11.Now, if perfection was through the Levitical priesthood, on the basis of it the people received the Law, what further need was there for another priest to arise according to the order of Melchizedek, and not be designated according to the order of Aaron?

12.For, when the priesthood is changed of necessity, there takes place a change of Law also.

The Physical tithes collected for physical mortal men, for Levites and for the needy and poor.

The Spiritual tithes such as: Justice, Mercy, Faithfulness (Matthew 23.23), and the love for GOD (Luke 11.42), collected in the hearts of men and presented before GOD in the deeds of Compassion, Mercy, Justice, and Faithfulness, all deriving from the love for GOD. A.G.

2Corinthains 9.6-7

6.Now this I say, he who sows sparingly (carefully, in moderation) shall also reap sparingly, and he who sows bountifully shall also reap bountifully.

7.Let each one do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, GOD loves a cheerful giver.

*("GOD loves a cheerful giver" (2Corinthains 9.6-7), according to the theme of entire chapter, it definitely relates to the contributions of food and other material things needed for the saints, for Apostles of Christ in Jerusalem, who were persecuted for the name of Christ and become in need, mostly of food, which the verses 9-12 in 2Corinthians giving some clues about it, but definitely not the money.

On the other hand, money can be accepted too, but it was not the major driving force of the donations, but mostly food, clothes, and shelter for those who persecuted and in need.

If money ever was donated, money never been donated as a payment for anything, or as a payroll and wages for saints, priests, missionaries, people of GOD, or to any other men who preached and served the Lord, but exclusively in emergency to prevent starvation and poverty, mostly of the missionary like Paul and others, but never as a payment for service or a salary.

So the saying, "GOD loves a cheerful giver", has been taken out of its context by hierarchy of the church, it clergy, by pastors, and by all sorts of preachers, in order to justify their parasitic life style and greed for money, paid to them as their salary from the church business and donations of the parishioners.)

Such practice to collect money for doing the work of GOD already has been condemned in the Old Testament: (Micah 3.11).

Jesus Christ also condemned such practice: (John 10.11-13).

And Apostle Peter specified that money has no part in the work and in the service of the Gospel as a payroll: (1Peter 5.1-4).

Apostle Paul also clarified this subject and presented himself as an example of unconditional and honest worker of Christ in his missionary ministry, who would not accept money for his services for GOD, but the opposite, work with his own hands to support not only himself but even those who were companions with him on his missionary journeys: (Acts 20.33-36).

2Chronicles 24.8-10

8.So the king (Jehoash-Joash, 8th king of Judah) commanded and they made a chest, and set it outside by the gate of the House of the Lord.

9.And they made a proclamation in Judah and Jerusalem to bring to the Lord the levy fixed by Moses, the servant of GOD, on Israel in the wilderness.

10.And all the officers and all the people rejoiced, and brought in their levies and dropped them into the chest, until they had finished.

Proverbs 22.9

9.He who is generous will be blessed, he gives some of his food to the poor. (KSB)

As clearly evident from all the verses above, collecting Tithes in form of money is the invention of the greedy church and has nothing to do with GOD.

Numbers 18:22
And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Ummm... no. Tithing was for the levites service according to God himself.

thesunisout · Oct 17, 2016

I'd like to see a thread where Christians encourage us to support our local church and ministries instead of giving them excuses not to

KoiFishCross · Oct 20, 2016

thesunisout said:
I'd like to see a thread where Christians encourage us to support our local church and ministries instead of giving them excuses not to

I would agree with you on this actually, but giving cheerfully is easier said than done even though it should not be.
My point about tithing is the pointing finger part and then using Jewish Law to do so.
When we give cheerfully of what we have, not only do we add to the Church, we also set an example from others to follow.
Unfortunately the issue of tithing has become just that, an issue rather than a blessing.

alex2165 · Oct 20, 2016

Thesini wrote

“I'd like to see a thread where Christians encourage us to support our local church and ministries instead of giving them excuses not to”

I am not against to support our local church when it needs repairs, pay utilities bills, or some other things to conduct the service.

I am against greedy extortions and lies of pastors and church hierarchy who lie to their parishioners about tithes and many other things, by scaring people by the wrath of GOD and lost of blessing and salvation if they would not donate their money.

I have been in many churches in my life, and practically in every church I can hear the same things, “give, give, and give.”

Pastors’ salaries start from 40.000 a year and goes almost to a million, depends of how good they are to collect the money.

Is this was the way of Christ? Is this a Biblical thing to do? How much Christ charged His listeners? How much His Apostles charged their followers and disciples?

Yes, Christ has been supported by all means, included food, and also by money. But what He did with money, He gave it to the poor.

Judas was in charge of the money box, and I do not recall any instances were Christ or His Apostles actually bought anything using their money box.

They have been invited to dinners, and certainly supply with food on many occasions by dedicated women, but I could not find for whatever else they use their money except giving it to the poor.

Many times they been hungry, and we know that on one of such occasions they walk through the field and snatched the heads of wheat, rubbed with their hand, and ate it.

Did they actually ever bought for themselves anything using their money box? The people donated them their money willingly, and money box was not passed around like the plate in the church.

Shall we support our greedy pastors and a dozen other clerics of the church who also charges for wedding and funerals, with our sweat soaking money and forgetting how lived and work Christ and His disciples? How much money they need and how much is enough?

Such pastors- hypocrites using such passages of the Bible, “GOD loves cheerful giver” which does not related to money in any way. And such words as, “It is for GOD.”

Google up the names of some TV “evangelists” and see how much they are making, then you will understand how much money church collect from its members.

On average a very small church with few people in it collects $10.000 a year. A little bit bigger church collects this money a single week. And there is no secret how much money collecting big and mega churches, in millions.

I am not jealous and envy them, I feel only sorry for them, because they are already receive their reward here, on this Earth, so, what kind of reward they will be expecting in Heaven?

Paul was proud to convert Gentiles to Christ and at the same time being burden to no one. He worked with his own hands and not only supported himself but also and his companions with him. He proudly wrote about this in his messages and urged others to follow his example.

Should our pastors take example of such attitude and do the same?

What kind of things our pastors doing the rest of the six days after Sunday service? The church open only on Sunday, and only for a few hours, and for the rest of the week remains closed.

Is anyone of us has such job to work few hours a week, in a single day, and get $40.000 a year or more?

I think we are supporting wrong crowd. Did any church actually release a statement of how much money they spend on the poor and who they are?

So, where is all that money truly goes and who else profit from if beside the pastors and the clergy?

Uber Genius · Oct 21, 2016

alex2165 said:
As clearly evident from all the verses above, collecting Tithes in form of money is the invention of the greedy church and has nothing to do with GOD

Seems like there are a few hidden premises here.

First of all if we interpret passages literally most are not in a church age! So the fact that church is not mentioned is about as important as saying being saved isn't important because the majority of the Bible doesn't mention it.

Secondly, we know the called out ones or ecclesia or church met in homes. Paul wrote to the churches and ask them and commended them for collecting and giving.

Paul also says the worker (evangelist or apostle or leader ) is worthy of his wages. Now Paul would work as a tent maker when people couldn't afford his upkeep, but at doesn't abrogate paying something when a group of believers are able.

Now one could take an "unwise steward" approach and suggest that church buildings are unoccupied, by church-related functions, for all but 6- 8 hrs assuming midweek services, per week.

Buildings leased for business are occupied 60-80 hrs per week.

Homes or apartments are occupied approximately 100 hrs per week.

Further, for the amount of time it takes to produce a 45 minute teaching and practice is 10 -12 hrs.

Meeting with new people and visitations 4-6 hrs how on earth is someone getting paid $80k plus healthcare. For a job that is 20 hrs per week?
$80/actual hr of work is what consultants with graduate degrees get paid.

Finally, a minimum of 1/3 is given to e needy in the OT tithe.

The average Evangelical Non-denominational church gives less than 2%! Off by over an order of magnitude.

So I suggest that giving in accord with wise stewardship is called for in the New Testament.

Further pastors should be paid for the value and impact, not for just showing up.

thesunisout · Oct 21, 2016

alex2165 said:
Thesini wrote

“I'd like to see a thread where Christians encourage us to support our local church and ministries instead of giving them excuses not to”

I am not against to support our local church when it needs repairs, pay utilities bills, or some other things to conduct the service.

I am against greedy extortions and lies of pastors and church hierarchy who lie to their parishioners about tithes and many other things, by scaring people by the wrath of GOD and lost of blessing and salvation if they would not donate their money.

I have been in many churches in my life, and practically in every church I can hear the same things, “give, give, and give.”

Pastors’ salaries start from 40.000 a year and goes almost to a million, depends of how good they are to collect the money.

Is this was the way of Christ? Is this a Biblical thing to do? How much Christ charged His listeners? How much His Apostles charged their followers and disciples?

Yes, Christ has been supported by all means, included food, and also by money. But what He did with money, He gave it to the poor.

Judas was in charge of the money box, and I do not recall any instances were Christ or His Apostles actually bought anything using their money box.

They have been invited to dinners, and certainly supply with food on many occasions by dedicated women, but I could not find for whatever else they use their money except giving it to the poor.

Many times they been hungry, and we know that on one of such occasions they walk through the field and snatched the heads of wheat, rubbed with their hand, and ate it.

Did they actually ever bought for themselves anything using their money box? The people donated them their money willingly, and money box was not passed around like the plate in the church.

Shall we support our greedy pastors and a dozen other clerics of the church who also charges for wedding and funerals, with our sweat soaking money and forgetting how lived and work Christ and His disciples? How much money they need and how much is enough?

Such pastors- hypocrites using such passages of the Bible, “GOD loves cheerful giver” which does not related to money in any way. And such words as, “It is for GOD.”

Google up the names of some TV “evangelists” and see how much they are making, then you will understand how much money church collect from its members.

On average a very small church with few people in it collects $10.000 a year. A little bit bigger church collects this money a single week. And there is no secret how much money collecting big and mega churches, in millions.

I am not jealous and envy them, I feel only sorry for them, because they are already receive their reward here, on this Earth, so, what kind of reward they will be expecting in Heaven?

Paul was proud to convert Gentiles to Christ and at the same time being burden to no one. He worked with his own hands and not only supported himself but also and his companions with him. He proudly wrote about this in his messages and urged others to follow his example.

Should our pastors take example of such attitude and do the same?

What kind of things our pastors doing the rest of the six days after Sunday service? The church open only on Sunday, and only for a few hours, and for the rest of the week remains closed.

Is anyone of us has such job to work few hours a week, in a single day, and get $40.000 a year or more?

I think we are supporting wrong crowd. Did any church actually release a statement of how much money they spend on the poor and who they are?

So, where is all that money truly goes and who else profit from if beside the pastors and the clergy?

With all due respect, being a Pastor is not an easy job. I work with several Pastors and the demands of the job, the congregation, the various ministries, the community at large, and balancing family with the ministry can be very stressful. You have to wear many different hats and there is a lot of pressure on you from many different sources. Not to mention that being a Pastor puts a big red target on your back for the enemy. Pastors are supposed to be honored, not denigrated. As Paul said, a worker is worthy of his wages. We are supposed to honor and esteem those who God placed in authority over us.

Are some Pastors overpaid? Definitely. Do some churches obsess about money? Sure they do. Does that mean that Pastors shouldn't be paid a good wage? No. I know many Pastors who more than deserve what they earn, and should be earning more.

The basic facts are that only 1.5 percent of Christians tithe and they give around 2 percent on average, less than Christians in the great depression. The problem isn't with the tithe, it is with lukewarm Christianity.

tturt · Oct 22, 2016

Regarding paying pastors "In the same way, the Lord gave instructions to those who proclaim the gospel that they should get their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14 (Mounce)

Every area of our lives is to surrendered to Yahweh including our money.

Will we rob God? (Mal 3:8) means the tithe is being paid to Him.

Yeshua said "Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone." Matt 23:23 Some folks use this Scripture to support not tithing but notice the last phase "not to leave the other undone."

Yeshua watched the offering plate and noticed who gave and how much. He also remarked "For they all put in from their abundance, but she from her need has put in everything she had - all she had to live on.” Mark 12:44 Seems like Yeshua would have taken the opportunity to tell His disciples that the poor wouldn't be expected to pay tithes/offerings/giving soon if that was going to be the case. Or do we think He let the poor widow put in everything she had without blessing her as stated in the Old Testament Scripture Mal 3:10.

Uber Genius · Oct 22, 2016

thesunisout said:
With all due respect, being a Pastor is not an easy job. I work with several Pastors and the demands of the job, the congregation, the various ministries, the community at large, and balancing family with the ministry can be very stressful. You have to wear many different hats and there is a lot of pressure on you from many different sources. Not to mention that being a Pastor puts a big red target on your back for the enemy. Pastors are supposed to be honored, not denigrated. As Paul said, a worker is worthy of his wages. We are supposed to honor and esteem those who God placed in authority over us.

Are some Pastors overpaid? Definitely. Do some churches obsess about money? Sure they do. Does that mean that Pastors shouldn't be paid a good wage? No. I know many Pastors who more than deserve what they earn, and should be earning more.

The basic facts are that only 1.5 percent of Christians tithe and they give around 2 percent on average, less than Christians in the great depression. The problem isn't with the tithe, it is with lukewarm Christianity.

In what ways does a 45-minute teaching once per week (that is forgotten by most by lunch Monday) effective at transforming lukewarm Christians into disciples? We have a Christian culture that PRODUCES luke-warm Christians.

Why am I paying for an empty building and pastoral staff, even if they manage to fill their schedules, for producing ineffective, under-equipped, non-disciples?

If this is just a Christian club, then fine. Sing, preach, have picnics, play basketball on Saturdays.

But the original church was called to destroy the power of the evil one:intellectually, culturally, by meeting the needs of the community, by casting our demons, healing he sick, engaging in social reforms, etc.

My point is Pastors have actually maintained a long history of discipleship-malpractice. Which facilitates "members" remaining, emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually undeveloped for their entire lives.

I would be happy with the solution of relabeling "church" "Christian Club" as it would no longer grossly over-represent the type of personal transformation one is likely receive.

If however you think blame is on the attendees and that Pastors can't overcome a culture of complacency, fine. Then why have Pastors? Again if they have conceded defeat in their call to make disciples why are we paying them? For a failed ministry?

thesunisout · Oct 22, 2016

Uber Genius said:
In what ways does a 45-minute teaching once per week (that is forgotten by most by lunch Monday) effective at transforming lukewarm Christians into disciples? We have a Christian culture that PRODUCES luke-warm Christians.

Why am I paying for an empty building and pastoral staff, even if they manage to fill their schedules, for producing ineffective, under-equipped, non-disciples?

If this is just a Christian club, then fine. Sing, preach, have picnics, play basketball on Saturdays.

But the original church was called to destroy the power of the evil one:intellectually, culturally, by meeting the needs of the community, by casting our demons, healing he sick, engaging in social reforms, etc.

My point is Pastors have actually maintained a long history of discipleship-malpractice. Which facilitates "members" remaining, emotionally, intellectually, and spiritually undeveloped for their entire lives.

I would be happy with the solution of relabeling "church" "Christian Club" as it would no longer grossly over-represent the type of personal transformation one is likely receive.

If however you think blame is on the attendees and that Pastors can't overcome a culture of complacency, fine. Then why have Pastors? Again if they have conceded defeat in their call to make disciples why are we paying them? For a failed ministry?

You're lumping all Pastors together, so I can't answer any of your questions. Can you not even concede that there are Pastors out there who do their job according to the word of God?

Uber Genius · Oct 24, 2016

thesunisout said:
You're lumping all Pastors together, so I can't answer any of your questions. Can you not even concede that there are Pastors out there who do their job according to the word of God?

Once again I am using a generally accepted method that I have only seen implemented for oh...45 years across dozens of churches. Not to mention polling from Barna and gallop.

But as all models only are a representative sample, I m am not trying to say there are no churches that deliver significant value. Now that would be a fallacy known as a sweeping generalization.

Instead of giving me an example of a church that optimizes its utilization (through say outreach programs or double duty as a shelter) you want me to concede some pastor does their job.

I concede that point. But where has that gotten us?

My point is not to eliminate giving to the local body, but to treat it as if you are making an investment.

If a pastor can get up and say:

This year our church:

Led 50 people in decisions for Christ

Increased our participation in home groups to 3 of 4 of our congregation

Graduated 50 from our year-long Christian doctrine class

Created 5 new small men's groups

Prayed for over 500 people in our community face to face,

Helped the poor

Cast out demons

Prayed for the sick

Exchanged meaningful defenses of the gospel...

Well you get the point.

If one starts to see what Jesus had in mind by telling us to take up our crosses this 45-minute teaching per week culture would go away completely, not be the norm as I suggest.

alex2165 · Oct 24, 2016

As I was expected you guys took verses of their context and defending your ungodly and corrupt practices of putting money first in everything while giving nothing in return.

Paying to pastors and collecting money in the church for whatever reason is the greedy and extremely corrupt practice that has its roots in the early Roman church when corrupted members and hierarchy of the church saw a great potential in material profit of big religious assemblies.

I completely and totally understand your position and your point of you as pastors who paid by the church or by committee of yours to do the work for them. And of course you defend yourself by twisting and bending the Word of GOD in order to justify your life style and others like you who profit and live at the expense of the church.

And every argument you presented I heard many time before, but your arguments are false and did not reflect the truth and reality of things from which they have been taken by you.

Uber wrote:

“Paul also says the worker (evangelist or apostle or leader ) is worthy of his wages.”

Matthew 10.10

10.no bag for your journey, or two tunics, or sandals, or a staff, laborers deserve their food. (Matthew 10.10) (Luke 10.7) (1Corinthinas 9.14) (1Timothy 5.18)

Luke 10.7

7.Remain in the same house, eating and drinking whatever they provide, the laborer deserves to be paid ("paid"-NRSV, "wages" - KSB, in other Bible translated as "reward" and as "support"). Do not move about from house to house.

Matthew 10.10 Luke 10.7 1Corinthians 9.14 1Timothy 5.18

KJV "meat" "hire" "live" "reward"

ESV "food" "wages" "living" "wages"

NRSV "food" "paid" "living" "paid"

Gideons "food" "wages" "live" "wages"

KSB "support" "wages" "living" "wages"

GNB "needs" "pay" "living" "pay"

Russian "provisions" "reward" "live" "reward"

KSB - Mathew 10.10. "support"

1.Or, knapsack or beggar's bag.

2.Or, inner garments.

3.A literal translation - nourishment.

KSB, Mid-reference. P-1274.

Tturt wrote:

“Regarding paying pastors "In the same way, the Lord gave instructions to those who proclaim the gospel that they should get their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14 (Mounce)”

As many people I talk to and exchanged post, you do the same thing as many of them did, you took out of the context a single verse and presented it as a fact of your point of view.

Why did you stop short and did not included the rest of the paragraph? Here is the full version of your quote:

1Corinthians 9.13-14.18

13.Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the Temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share with the altar?

14.So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the Gospel to get their living from Gospel. (Matthew 10.9-10) (Luke 10.7) (1Timothy 5.17-18)

18.What then is my reward? That when I preach the Gospel I may offer the Gospel without charge, so as not to make full use of my right in the Gospel.

Ttrut also wrote:

“Will we rob God? (Mal 3:8) means the tithe is being paid to Him.”

You also done the same thing and with the quote from Malachi, you took few words out of its context and presented tithes as you desired to see them in your own way. But Look closely and compare about what kind of tithes GOD here talking about and later His Son Jesus Christ.

Malachi 3.8-11

8.Will a man rob the GOD? Yet you are robbing Me! But you say, 'How have we robbed You?' In tithes and offerings.

9.You are cursed with a curse, you are robbing Me, the whole nation of you!

10.Bring the whole tithes into the storehouse so that there may be food in My House, and test Me now in this' says the Lord of hosts, 'If I will not open for you the windows of heaven, and pour out for you a blessing until it overflows.

11.Then I will rebuke the devourer for you, so that it may not destroy the fruits of the ground, nor will your vine in the field cast its grapes', says the Lord of hosts.

Matthew 23.23
23.”Woe to you scribes and Pharisees hypocrites for you tithe, mint, and dill, and cummin, and have neglected the weightier provisions of the Law: Justice, and Mercy, and Faithfulness, these are the things you should have done without neglecting the others.”

Malachi and the Christ were talking about the same thing of how people cheated GOD in their tithes when they presented inferior grain culture to the superior. So where you actually see any money in all of these?

Where you see any money mentioned in all the passages concerning tithes that I presented above? Do you know who truly robbing GOD of His tithes, of His Word, and His sheep the church?

Those who collect the money for themselves and for their bosses in committees.

When the tithes from the fields and from the flocks and herds have been gathered to the storage houses in the cities of Levites, tenth of those tithes have been delivered to the Tabernacle or later to the Temple for the priests who served the Lord at that time, so priests and all the servants of the Temple can eat while they serve the Lord, the rest or excess of it was given to the poor.

And the priests themselves also offered tithes to the Lord, tenth from everything they have in the storages of the Temple, and how you think they offered? They offered the tenth of all the tithes they have, on the Altar to the Lord, literally burned it up.

So the question is, how pastors who live at the expense of the church offering their tithes to the Lord? Do they also burn the tenth of their money on the backyard of their church? What they give to GOD out their tenth of their tithes?

I tell you even more. If you took out of the Old Testament a ritual, you have to follow it as it was written, word to word. It is very hypocritical, wicked, deceitful and ungodly to take some of the rituals of the Old Testament and apply them for your own benefit in completely distorted and wrong way.

And so many times I heard in the church pastors saying, “the Law was nailed to the cross and under the Christ we are free from the Law!”

Why then you collect the tithes your hypocrites when they nailed to the cross with the Law of Moses?

If you took something from the Law of Moses you are required to follow entire Law, or you become the violator of the Law.

How low is it to use the Word of GOD, attach to it wrong meaning, and use for your own profit and benefit.!?

If the pastors dishonest in the Word of GOD, how you can possibly preach the truth and live according to His principals and ideals?

robert skynner · Jan 7, 2017

Jim Langston said:
Numbers 18:22
And, behold, I have given the children of Levi all the tenth in Israel for an inheritance, for their service which they serve, even the service of the tabernacle of the congregation.

Ummm... no. Tithing was for the levites service according to God himself.

Well said Jim. Tithing was given to the nation of Israel (Leviticus 27:34), gentiles were excluded from the Mosaic law (Psalm 147:19-20). Today here in the UK, people are going to buildings on Sunday to be entertained, most religious people do not know who they are "in Christ" (implying a new covenant relationship), thus people add their own human works to the new covenant. Here in the south-west of the UK, what calls itself evangelical Christianity is literally falling apart before your eyes, people who call themselves Christians can't answer questions, they are completely ignorant of the very basics of the faith (who is Christ, Trinity, how are we saved - new covenant), bulling and paying money to preachers has replaced the new covenant in most peoples eyes. It's utter insanity!

robert skynner · Jan 7, 2017

AvilaSurfer said:
Ok then, let's just take the words of Jesus. Sell everything. Give it all away.

The context here is the "rich young ruler," he had inherited alot of money on his father's death, therefore he came to Jesus, seeking to live forever, simply so he could enjoy his life of luxury forever. This was an extremely selfish request .... give me eternal life so that I can then live in luxury, ignoring the poor and the suffering. This is why Christ told him to give all his money away, as his money was his idol, and Christ saw the need to remove this idol from his life. Christ's words at Luke 18:18-23 are spoken specifically to a rich, greedy, selfish young man, and the context was not Christ speaking to all 7 billion people living today.

"Luke 18:18 A certain ruler asked him, “Good teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 19 “Why do you call me good?” Jesus answered. “No one is good—except God alone. 20 You know the commandments: ‘You shall not commit adultery, you shall not murder, you shall not steal, you shall not give false testimony, honor your father and mother.’” 21 “All these I have kept since I was a boy,” he said. 22 When Jesus heard this, he said to him, “You still lack one thing. Sell everything you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven. Then come, follow me.” 23 When he heard this, he became very sad, because he was very wealthy. 24 Jesus looked at him and said, “How hard it is for the rich to enter the kingdom of God! 25 Indeed, it is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for someone who is rich to enter the kingdom of God.”

robert skynner · Jan 7, 2017

thesunisout said:
I'd like to see a thread where Christians encourage us to support our local church and ministries instead of giving them excuses not to

I live in the UK, where few evangelical Churches are preaching the gospel. Most people who call themselves Christians or evangelicals here, do not and cannot explain the Trinity (so many of them being tri-theists or modalists), or the new Covenant, most people go to church to be entertained and with holding money and resources from many Churches is obviously God's will, as the false gospel which so many of them preach is littler better (if at all) from the Jehovah's Witnesses or Roman Catholic messages.

robert skynner · Jan 7, 2017

alex2165 said:
Thesini wrote

“I'd like to see a thread where Christians encourage us to support our local church and ministries instead of giving them excuses not to”

I am not against to support our local church when it needs repairs, pay utilities bills, or some other things to conduct the service.

I am against greedy extortions and lies of pastors and church hierarchy who lie to their parishioners about tithes and many other things, by scaring people by the wrath of GOD and lost of blessing and salvation if they would not donate their money.

I have been in many churches in my life, and practically in every church I can hear the same things, “give, give, and give.”

Pastors’ salaries start from 40.000 a year and goes almost to a million, depends of how good they are to collect the money.

Is this was the way of Christ? Is this a Biblical thing to do? How much Christ charged His listeners? How much His Apostles charged their followers and disciples?

Yes, Christ has been supported by all means, included food, and also by money. But what He did with money, He gave it to the poor.

Judas was in charge of the money box, and I do not recall any instances were Christ or His Apostles actually bought anything using their money box.

They have been invited to dinners, and certainly supply with food on many occasions by dedicated women, but I could not find for whatever else they use their money except giving it to the poor.

Many times they been hungry, and we know that on one of such occasions they walk through the field and snatched the heads of wheat, rubbed with their hand, and ate it.

Did they actually ever bought for themselves anything using their money box? The people donated them their money willingly, and money box was not passed around like the plate in the church.

Shall we support our greedy pastors and a dozen other clerics of the church who also charges for wedding and funerals, with our sweat soaking money and forgetting how lived and work Christ and His disciples? How much money they need and how much is enough?

Such pastors- hypocrites using such passages of the Bible, “GOD loves cheerful giver” which does not related to money in any way. And such words as, “It is for GOD.”

Google up the names of some TV “evangelists” and see how much they are making, then you will understand how much money church collect from its members.

On average a very small church with few people in it collects $10.000 a year. A little bit bigger church collects this money a single week. And there is no secret how much money collecting big and mega churches, in millions.

I am not jealous and envy them, I feel only sorry for them, because they are already receive their reward here, on this Earth, so, what kind of reward they will be expecting in Heaven?

Paul was proud to convert Gentiles to Christ and at the same time being burden to no one. He worked with his own hands and not only supported himself but also and his companions with him. He proudly wrote about this in his messages and urged others to follow his example.

Should our pastors take example of such attitude and do the same?

What kind of things our pastors doing the rest of the six days after Sunday service? The church open only on Sunday, and only for a few hours, and for the rest of the week remains closed.

Is anyone of us has such job to work few hours a week, in a single day, and get $40.000 a year or more?

I think we are supporting wrong crowd. Did any church actually release a statement of how much money they spend on the poor and who they are?

So, where is all that money truly goes and who else profit from if beside the pastors and the clergy?

I have a 68 video series against tithing on my Youtube channel which is called: Christian Comedy Channel. Two of the latter videos in this series are debates where I debate pro-tithers over the internet.

robert skynner · Jan 7, 2017

tturt said:
Every area of our lives is to surrendered to Yahweh including our money.

Will we rob God? (Mal 3:8) means the tithe is being paid to Him.

What you call tithing and your own tithing - ISN'T BIBLICAL, as in the Bible tithes were food and livestock never money see Leviticus 27:30:

"30 A tithe of everything from the land, whether grain from the soil or fruit from the trees, belongs to the LORD; it is holy to the LORD. 31And if a man will at all redeem ought of his tithes, he shall add thereto the fifth part thereof." (Leviticus 27:30-31, NIV).

This verse relates specifically to the Children of Israel (Leviticus 27:34), who alone amongst the people groups of the known world, were commanded to pay the three levitical tithes as well as the numerous offerings. There is no command in scripture for any gentiles to tithe (Psalm 147:19-20), even if happen to dwell in the midst of the children of Israel, as the tithe was only payable on livestock and agricultural produce of the land of Israel (Deuteronomy 6:1-3). Secondly, verse 30 states that the tithe was specifically agricultural produce and NOT money. Thirdly, verse 31 states that if a person did not wish to, (or was unable to) physically go to the trouble of taking the tithes (both the Levitical and poor tithes) to one of the 48 Levitical storehouse cities throughout the land of Israel (Numbers 35:7). Then they could transfer both of their tithes into Money and then pay 1/8th rather than 1/10th which they then paid to the tribe of Levi, who would then transfer it back (i.e. redeem) into agricultural produce. Now do churches today command people who pay tithes in money also pay 1/8th rather than 1/10th? But if they don’t do this, then they aren’t even attempting to keep the levitical laws on tithing, as they are rather, simply, just making up modern man-made rules as they go along, and then incorrectly calling these modern man-made extra-Biblical rules: ‘tithing,’ when in reality modern-day tithing bears absolutely no relationship to Biblical tithing.

robert skynner · Jan 7, 2017

alex2165 said:
Tturt wrote:

“Regarding paying pastors "In the same way, the Lord gave instructions to those who proclaim the gospel that they should get their living from the gospel." I Cor 9:14 (Mounce)”

As many people I talk to and exchanged post, you do the same thing as many of them did, you took out of the context a single verse and presented it as a fact of your point of view.

Why did you stop short and did not included the rest of the paragraph? Here is the full version of your quote:

1Corinthians 9.13-14.18

13.Do you not know that those who perform sacred services eat the food of the Temple, and those who attend regularly to the altar have their share with the altar?

14.So also the Lord directed those who proclaim the Gospel to get their living from Gospel. (Matthew 10.9-10) (Luke 10.7) (1Timothy 5.17-18)

“3 This is my defense to those who sit in judgment on me. 4 Don’t we have the right to food and drink? 5 Don’t we have the right to take a believing wife along with us, as do the other apostles and the Lord’s brothers and Cephas? 6 Or is it only I and Barnabas who lack the right to not work for a living?” (1st Corinthians 9:3-5).

The context for this passage, as well as the references to paying people in leadership positions, are people who have given up their regular work, in order to then work some distance away from their fellowship as a missionary or a travelling missionary. This is why at verse five we read about a missionary taking along his believing wife, this isn’t talking about to the local Church service, it’s talking about taking your wife along with you on your mission (which no doubt lasted for several years, as opposed to a service lasting a hour or two).

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I respect the Bible but religion is damaging

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