Which Translation

I am a Reformed/Calvinist Christian and use the

  • NIV

  • KJV

  • NKJV

  • NLT

  • ESV

  • HCSB

  • The Voice

  • NASB

  • NIRV

  • other


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AMR

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I missed it. Going back I see a reference to Genesis 4:7. Is that the one?

The MT is: הֲל֤וֹא אִם־תֵּיטִיב֙ שְׂאֵ֔ת וְאִם֙ לֹ֣א תֵיטִ֔יב לַפֶּ֖תַח חַטָּ֣את רֹבֵ֑ץ וְאֵלֶ֙יךָ֙ תְּשׁ֣וּקָת֔וֹ וְאַתָּ֖ה תִּמְשָׁל־בּֽוֹ׃

A literal rendering of this would be: "Not if you will do well lifting up? But if you will not do well at the door sin is crouching. And against you is his desire. But you shall rule over him."

This obviously needs cleaning up. I would render it: "If you do well will you not be lifted up? But if you do not do well sin is crouching at the door. It's desire is for you but you must rule over it."

The KJV renders it: "If thou doest well, shalt thou not be accepted? and if thou doest not well, sin lieth at the door. And unto thee shall be his desire, and thou shalt rule over him."

The ESV renders it: "If you do well, will you not be accepted? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door. Its desire is for you, but you must rule over it.”

The NIV renders it: "If you do what is right, will you not be accepted? But if you do not do what is right, sin is crouching at your door; it desires to have you, but you must rule over it.”

The NASB renders it: "If you do well, will not your countenance be lifted up? And if you do not do well, sin is crouching at the door; and its desire is for you, but you must master it.”

The only significant difference I see is how they render the final verb. KJV renders it like a command or even a promise - "you shall rule over it". The others render it as a command - "you must rule over it". The verb itself is Qal imperfect and so both of these senses fit within its semantic range.

All that to say, I don't see the contradiction. What am I missing?
You are missing a careful examination of the passage that you already see in the Hebrew and the KJV rendering.

The "his" in the KJV refers to Cain's brother, Abel. The rendering of all the modern versions underlies the Anabaptist Pelagian issue that has led so many astray from the actual intended meaning that I referred to in my post. That is, Cain shall ever have the right of primogeniture, and in all things shall his brother (Abel) be subject unto Cain. These words are not spoken of sin ("its"), as many have wrongly understood them, but of Abel's ("his") submission to Cain as his superior, and the words are spoken to remove Cain's envy. The passage had nothing to do with the notions of mastery over sin as so many are led to believe by the poor translation by modern versions.

AMR
 
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stenerson

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I listen to Dr. White every week and I can tell you I'm not the only one that finds his work on textual criticism to actually dash their faith. Another fella that posts on here once in a while has share the same concerns with me via fb. I'm not sadly mistaken just drawing the unavoidable conclusion.

Hmmm? That's interesting. I think he does a great job of proving that we can have confidence that the original texts have been preserved. (and that we simply have a tiny bit extra which in no way undermines the gospel).
People need to be prepared for the Bart Ehrman's of the world that use the wide range of textual variants as a weapon to undermine the scriptures.
 
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JM

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What's the difference between the two on this issue? One believes the interpolations and variants, the many different mss do not affect the validity of their authority and the other does. Their starting point is the same. Both assume a naturalistic worldview when handling them, one is a believer and the other isn't.
 
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AMR

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Never have I heard Jesus or those he sends speak about a "reformed...?"

Transformed, but reformation isnt that like conversion.

Eg: an inch is still an inch whether or not it's measured in centimeters.
You are posting in a safe-haven forum for those with a particular set of beliefs in the Reformed tradition. Advocating or implying views contrary to that of this group is not permitted.

If you want to debate Calvinism or the Reformed views, please use the Ask A Calvinist sub-forum. Please review the following:

http://www.christianforums.com/threads/semper-reformanda-reformed-statement-of-faith.7396175/

Thank you for your consideration.

AMR
 
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stenerson

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What's the difference between the two on this issue? One believes the interpolations and variants, the many different mss do not affect the validity of their authority and the other does. Their starting point is the same. Both assume a naturalistic worldview when handling them, one is a believer and the other isn't.

The difference is that we believe God used means to preserve His word for us today.. The fact that those means included fallible scribes throughout different regions takes nothing away from it. Or do we pretend it came in golden plates that we can go to to solve any variant?
I don't understand how White's expounding on the history of transmission throughout the NT period can be considered a "naturalistic worldview."
 
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JM

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Yep, those confessions basically agree with White's bottom line. That is that God, through His providence has preserved for us His word. We needn't fear studying/researching the means through which this was done.

Actually, the confession do not agree with Dr. White's understanding. see Post Reformation Dogmatics by Muller, Disputation of Holy Scriptures by Whitaker sold on aomin.org, Institutes of Elenctic Theology by Turretin, etc.)

@AMR wasn't it Hodge that alter the Protestant view in light of textual criticism?

Yours in the Lord.
 
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JimmyH

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I will contribute to the can of worms saying that the poll should have allowed multiple choices. I went with NKJV because in the past and present churches I have attended the pastor preached from that translation.

However, I read the KJV, NIV, RSV, ESV, NASB, ASV and the Geneva alternately to check up on verses I'm unsure of. I love the NIV '84, and I believe the NIV11 is even better, in spite of the inclusive language.

I think it is better to compare translations than to stick with one. At least if a person is serious about Bible study, and doesn't have a command of the original languages.
 
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JM

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The poll isn't perfect. According to a study in 2014 the KJV is still more widely read than what is listed in the CBS's info. Small publishers are not apart of the data collecting process so that excludes TBS, Local Church, R. L. Allan, etc.
 
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JimmyH

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I've no doubt the KJV, A.K.A. the Authorized Version, is the largest seller. When I bought my first Bible, in 1986, when I was 37 years old, that was what I bought. I soon followed it up with an NIV, to help me make sense of such chapters as Romans 7.
I read the Bible back then selectively, cafeteria style, for about 6 months, then left them rarely touched, gathering dust, for 30 years. I wonder how many Bible buyers, regardless of which translation, read them ?
Last year, my first doing the M'Cheyne 1 year plan, I read that Bible from cover to cover for the first time. This year I'm doing the plan using the 1599 Geneva. Wonderful reading plan BTW. This year I incorporated D.A. Carson's "For The Love Of God" Vol 1&2 along with it. Vol 1 comments on the morning reading, vol 2 on the evening. Really adds to the understanding of the chapters.
I recently did a google search for 'most accurate Bible English translation.' The most literal are supposedly the NASB and the NKJV, but I was curious whether they would also top the field in accuracy.
According to the search results the NRSV is the most accurate. It is also reputed to be the version most widely used in academia. Of course for Evangelicals there are problems with the translation, and with the inclusive language. I do have an RSV, and an ESV, so I'm somewhat familiar with the issues.
I still read the KJV often, if not daily, and if I memorize any verses, they will be out of the KJV translation. @ 67 years old, it just seems 'right' to my eye and ear, though in witnessing to younger folks I've had to paraphrase or they looked at me as if I was from the moon.
 
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Striver

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I'll let the Bible say it because it just always says it better:

Ecclesiastes 1:18 HCSB
For with much wisdom is much sorrow; as knowledge increases, grief increases.

For me this intelligently sums up textual criticism and linguistics. One of the things that comes through in any text is how NT writers often quote the OT and are surprisingly loose or imprecise. It also makes a lot of sense if you view the so-called synoptic problem in this lense, as at some level it's eyewitness accounts being written not exactly when the events were transpiring. If you dwell within the paradigm of absolutes, then this can grate a little on the core convictions, but given an omniscient God, it really speaks profoundly to his glory to transcend our words.

Rather than a sign of flippancy or that the NT is not to be trusted, one must look at the forest over the trees when viewing the NT writers quotes. We have a very old document with many thousands of manuscripts throughout history and they all pretty much say the same thing with extremely minor variation. (FWIW, I think Dr. White summarized the same way a time or two.) This isn't the case for some documents where we have far fewer copies. That to me is a testimony unto itself.

As for the TR -> AV, I can certainly respect the argument. However, it's slightly ironic that the argument is essentially that the Roman Catholics got it right, particularly when dealing with the obvious reverse translation of the end of Revelation. That's not a knock or insult, but just the reality of the position of the AV/TR in that it has its own ambiguities that long predate the WCF.

To add my inflated-out two cents to the discussion, I use and really like the HCSB or ESV. At my table I have a copy of those along with the KJV and NLT. I also frequently consult the NIV, RSV, and NRSV. I am old school and have at least one copy of each, as well as other versions like the Geneva Bible. From experience, they all say the same thing if you allow for Hebrew and Greek generally being languages with much more nuance in their semantic ranges than our own. Thus I see it as profitable to double check several versions and used the tools God has blessed us with to understand the Bible.

I still quote often from the KJV, or at least end up with a de-thee-and-thou'ed version of it. There is some science behind activating our minds a little more with more difficult diction and form, and thus those of us who grew up with the KJV (I'm 29) all remember it a little better. Google the brain and Shakespeare a little, there was a study done on it that came out a few years back that it activates more of the brain than reading, say, a modern business book. For the poster who said they quote KJV and then explain, I'd almost stick with that rather than jettison your learning. New versions are more difficult, IMHO, to commit to memory.

Lastly, one of ya'll commented on the NRSV/RSV controversy that's generally a not-controversy if you examine it. (We agree here.) While I find it impossible to say Isaiah 7:14 did penultimately mean virgin (and, if you have some time, check the Greek NT word choice vs Hebrew choice here), it becomes a bit problematic if we really want to argue for two virgin births in the Bible. Thus, the semantic range of the Hebrew word likely meant everything from a young woman to a young woman who was not married to a young woman who had not had sex. Obviously the last use is clearly intended for the Messiah as Matthew's rendering confirms (and the RSV and NRSV confirm in that passage), but the OT here-and-now use of the word probably referred to one of the former semantic meanings of the word.

I think it safe to say that none of us here with any type of Reformed background will deny that God works slightly higher than our little finite minds can always work out. While not a huge fan of the proliferation of translations and theme Bibles by any means (I'm still waiting for the IT professionals' Bible that comes with complementary ear plugs to drown out support calls...not), I think the diversity of translations clearly all say the same thing within a reasonable semantic range, which is an authentic limitation of the English language. What a wise and holy God who inspired documents 2,000+ years ago that would come to us in reasonable enough form for the gospel to spread to the nations!
 
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