Drinking a beer does not go against Bible

Widlast · Sep 19, 2016

Jason0047 said:
It was unfermented wine (i.e. wine that had not undergone the fermentation process whereby it is highly alcoholic). For wine is referred to as either unfermented or fermented.

See definition 3 here at Dictionary.com

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/wine

...

If it is not fermented IT IS NOT WINE, it's grape juice. If it has sat for more than a day, it has started to ferment and it is on its way to becoming wine. That's the way it works.

Dave-W · Sep 19, 2016

Jason0047 said:
It was unfermented wine (i.e. wine that had not undergone the fermentation process whereby it is highly alcoholic). For wine is referred to as either unfermented or fermented.

And how exactly did HE accomplish that - another miracle like Cana? Passover is in the spring. (usually April) The grape harvest is in September. There was no refrigeration or other means of pasteurizing to kill off the natural yeast. It would have been full strength alcoholic wine in less than 8 weeks.

Dave-W · Sep 19, 2016

Widlast said:
If it is not fermented IT IS NOT WINE, it's grape juice. I

But both are similarly refered to as "fruit of the vine." That is from the Jewish blessing said over all grape products:

Blessed are You o Lord our God King of the universe, who creates the fruit of the vine.

Dave-W · Sep 19, 2016

Jason0047 said:
For wine is referred to as either unfermented or fermented.

A christian myth. "New Wine" in the bible is still alcoholic. It just has not aged and purified itself yet.

Acts 2.13 Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.

Clearly it was understood that "new wine" got people drunk.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 19, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
And how exactly did HE accomplish that - another miracle like Cana? Passover is in the spring. (usually April) The grape harvest is in September. There was no refrigeration or other means of pasteurizing to kill off the natural yeast. It would have been full strength alcoholic wine in less than 8 weeks.

Jesus has the power to create anything He wants. But seeing Jesus never created death before (which would be a substance or byproduct of the yeast that has fed upon the life of the grape), it seems morely likely he created a substance that was straight from life itself. Alcoholic wine is the process of death. If you believe Jesus created a process of death, then go right ahead and believe that. But that is not what happened. As for alcohol: It takes certain conditions and time for freshly squeezed grape juice to turn alcoholic.

First, it takes 2-3 weeks for crushed grapes to fully ferment:
https://www.reference.com/food/long-grapes-ferment-bc5818d20b92a077

Second, the Israelites could have drank freshly squeezed grape juice straight from the vine.
The concept of storing everything comes from our modern age because we have fridgerators with ice cuber makers and coolers within our cars and stuff.

...

Bible Highlighter · Sep 19, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
A christian myth. "New Wine" in the bible is still alcoholic. It just has not aged and purified itself yet.

Acts 2.13 Others mocking said, “They are full of new wine.”
14 But Peter, standing up with the eleven, raised his voice and said to them, “Men of Judea and all who dwell in Jerusalem, let this be known to you, and heed my words.
15 For these are not drunk, as you suppose, since it is only the third hour of the day.

Clearly it was understood that "new wine" got people drunk.

Homonyms do exist in the Bible.

Yayin (wine) has two meanings in Scripture. Unfermented and fermented.

It is the context that determines the meaning of a word.

In Acts 2:13, it is in reference to alcoholic wine.

But the word "wine" in the Bible can refer to unfermented wine (i.e. grape juice), too. How so?

In verse 7 of Isaiah chapter 65, the Lord is warning about how he is about to bring judgment upon Israel and repay them for the wickedness they had done (Isaiah 65:7 KJV). In verse 8 (Isaiah 65:8 KJV), the Lord compares this judgment upon Israel as if He is about to crush a grape within in His hand.

For the Lord says,

"As the new wine is found in the cluster"

And then a voice replies,

"Destroy it not; for a blessing is in it"

Then the Lord answers,

"So will I do for my servants' sakes, that I may not destroy them all."

The "new wine" is said to be within the cluster of the grape. This "new wine" is obviously the fresh juice in the cluster. For the voice had pleaded with the Lord to destroy not the cluster of the grape that had the new wine because there was a blessing within it. In other words, there is a blessing within the cluster. Inside the cluster is juice. This juice is called a blessing and it is called "new wine." The blessing within the cluster is not alcoholic wine. Grapes do not grow off the vine as alcoholic wine. They need time to ferment.

Let me put it to you another way.

Those Moderationists who propose that the word "wine" can only be a reference to "alcoholic wine", then this passage would not make any sense and it would be like me saying...

As new orange smoothy juice is found within the ball of an orange.

Then someone yells out,

Please, do not destroy the orange smoothy juice that is inside that orange. I beg you. I like smoothies. Especially when they are mixed with lots of creamy milk.

However, such a statement would not make any sense. It is only fresh and new natural orange juice that is within the ball of an orange. Orange smoothies are a result of something you do later to the orange juice. Orange smoothie juice is not found within the ball of an orange anymore than alcoholic wine is found within the cluster of a grape.

In other words, only new unfermented wine (Grape juice) is found inside the cluster of the grape; Not old fermented alcoholic wine.

For when the voice declared there is a blessing within the cluster, it lets us know that it is talking about the "fresh juice" and not an after effect or by product of the grape.

...

Bible Highlighter · Sep 19, 2016

Widlast said:
If it is not fermented IT IS NOT WINE, it's grape juice. If it has sat for more than a day, it has started to ferment and it is on its way to becoming wine. That's the way it works.

See Post #125.

...

Bible Highlighter · Sep 19, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
And how exactly did HE accomplish that - another miracle like Cana? Passover is in the spring. (usually April) The grape harvest is in September. There was no refrigeration or other means of pasteurizing to kill off the natural yeast. It would have been full strength alcoholic wine in less than 8 weeks.

Also, it has been recorded in history that certain wine makers in the ancient past had kept the wine cool by storing it in clay jars and sealing them up and by placing them at the bottom of the water. They also boiled grape juice back in ancient times too.

...

Dave-W · Sep 19, 2016

Jason0047 said:
First, it takes 2-3 weeks for crushed grapes to fully ferment:

Correct, depending on the variety and growing conditions. Some it may take 4-5 weeks.

But at any rate, we are talking 6 months here.

Jason0047 said:
Second, the Israelites could have drank freshly squeezed grape juice straight from the vine.

For a couple of weeks. But after that period, even on the vine, it will ferment. We are talking 6 months. By then all the grapes need to be cleared out of the vines as the new growth is starting for that fall's harvest.

Dave-W · Sep 19, 2016

Jason0047 said:
For when the voice declared there is a blessing within the cluster, it lets us know that it is talking about the "fresh juice" and not an after effect or by product of the grape.

You are stretching that beyond the breaking point.

CaptainToad · Sep 19, 2016

Jason0047 said:
The more you are in God's Word and requote the same Scripture to others, the more it will become easier for you to quote Scripture by heart. Repetition is the mother of all learning (As I am sure you are aware of). I have many verses engraved on my heart that I just love to quote. It is my prayer and hope you will one day be able to do the same, my friend.

You mean, Solomon, right?

And what is the conclusion of this matter in Ecclesiastes 2?

"Let us hear the conclusion of the whole matter: Fear God, and keep his commandments: for this is the whole duty of man."
(Ecclesiastes 12:13).

Please show the exact verses that makes you believe this way.

The Israelites (the parents and not the children, Moses, Joshua, and Caleb) had died in the wilderness (the dessert). Those who died in the wilderness did not have their hearts right with God. That is why they perished in the wilderness and they could not enter the promised land.
Which Israelites? The ones in the wilderness? Or the Israelites in the Promised land?

If you were to look up the word wine in the dictionary, you would find that it says this,

3. the juice, fermented or unfermented, of various other fruits or plants,

http://www.dictionary.com/browse/wine

No. If you were to read the context, the goods were for a part of the ceremony in their offerings to God.

And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to fear the LORD thy God always. (Deuteronomy 14:23).

Believers who are in support of drinking usually do not address God's Word that talks directly against alcohol (Deuteronomy 32:33, 1 Samuel 1:14-15, Proverbs 4:17, Proverbs 20:1, Proverbs 23:31-32, Proverbs 31:4-5, 1 Timothy 3:2-3) while glorifying Deuteronomy 14:26 which is an isolated obscure verse that mentions wine and strong drink in passing. This verse has become esteemed of those seeking to justify that all believers can drink or consider alcohol as God's gift to man.

Besides, it says in Deuteronomy 29:6 that the Israelites did not drink wine. This is how they KNEW the Lord. If they did drink wine, then it would undermine this verse.

If they were drunk, then Paul would have ordered a cease and desist order. The word "drunken" in 1 Corinthians 11:21 is merely in reference to one having being satiated by a beverage that was not high in alcoholic content. It is not talking about drinking or drunkenness. Or do you think Luke 17:8 is talking about drinking or in being drunk, too?

Prohibitionism (i.e. the forbidding of strong alcoholic beverages) was the view of the saint under the Old Testament.
Abstentionism is the view of the saint who is under the New Testament.
I have provided verses for you to look at in my previous post.
It is up to you if you want to believe them or not.

You mean, King David, right?

Again, there are two different kinds of wines (yayin) in the Bible.
This is the yayin (wine) that is not overly intoxicating. It is a wine that makes men's hearts glad because it is very low in alcohol content (but it is not enough to get one to be drunk off it like the wine of today).
However, the yayin (wine) in Proverbs 23:31 says we are not to look upon it even. Meaning it is bad.

...

Thanks for pointing out my typos.

You have a way of making your points come through, cant say that I agree with then. And I dont want to argue with you as you have nade up your mind as well.

Calling a verse obscure is kind off odd. This verse certainly speaks about a future situation and wasnt meant to take place in the wilderness, so it doesnt really underminde anything.

Wine and strong drink for ceremony reason? Dont really see that anywhere in the text but rather buy and consume what your heart desires.

I dont like the attitude of saying some people use a verse to justify drinking. You dont know peoples motivation only God knows.
I think people seek the truth about matters and like to know Gods will - what is possible and what is not. The point is, some churches and denominations dont share your opinion on it. Of course you might say they are part of some apostasy or something but thats not the point. People grow up and know there churches that view things differently and its up to everyone to find out for themselves. If the bible was very clear as in thou shalt not murder we wouldnt have this conversation.

Sometimes its not even about drinking at all but about telling other people what you believe in. Its a difference wether you say my church believes or I believe. Some people might not care and go with the flow others might want to know for themselves.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 19, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
Correct, depending on the variety and growing conditions. Some it may take 4-5 weeks.

But at any rate, we are talking 6 months here.

For a couple of weeks. But after that period, even on the vine, it will ferment. We are talking 6 months. By then all the grapes need to be cleared out of the vines as the new growth is starting for that fall's harvest.

The time it will ferment on the vine is if something breaks the skin whereby the yeast eats the sugar within the grapes. The alcohol is the by-product or poop from the micro-organism known as yeast. The sugars themselves do not ferment without the yeast. Bees can puncture these grape clusters causing early fermentation.

Intense rains can wash off this yeast and prevent fermentation.

But again, there is no reason to assume that they stored the fermented juice of grapes. They could have easily just drank fresh juice. But if they did store grape juice, they could have easily boiled it or kept it cool in clay jars under the water.

...

VanillaSunflowers · Sep 19, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Jesus has the power to create anything He wants. But seeing Jesus never created death before (which would be a substance or byproduct of the yeast that has fed upon the life of the grape), it seems morely likely he created a substance that was straight from life itself. Alcoholic wine is the process of death. If you believe Jesus created a process of death, then go right ahead and believe that. But that is not what happened. As for alcohol: It takes certain conditions and time for freshly squeezed grape juice to turn alcoholic.

First, it takes 2-3 weeks for crushed grapes to fully ferment:
https://www.reference.com/food/long-grapes-ferment-bc5818d20b92a077

Second, the Israelites could have drank freshly squeezed grape juice straight from the vine.
The concept of storing everything comes from our modern age because we have fridgerators with ice cuber makers and coolers within our cars and stuff.

...

You can believe whatever you want but don't attempt to say Jesus agrees with you or that you're repeating what Jesus stated in the process. The Bible says Jesus turned water into wine. That's exactly what he did. Jesus was God incarnate. He knew very well everything about grapes, fermentation, and all that.
Furthermore, there are anti-alcohol pastors out there that try to teach that nonsense about Jesus wouldn't have created wine because grape fermentation is death and Jesus would not have created death, etc...

Jesus was God. God created death or an end to all things from the beginning. And fermentation of a grape is not death. It is energy and life. Fermentation processes occurs in fruit, foods, and the processed food industry as well as the pharmaceutical industry. If you're opposed to fermentation and what you believe it means, when you talk about death, etc... you're out of luck.

Don't drink wine if you don't want to. Don't drink beer or any alcohol because you don't want to. But don't try to rewrite the scriptures in order to have them comport with your beliefs about alcohol.
Jesus converted water into wine. Wine was a traditional drink afforded in Hebrew weddings. Jesus would know that too.
The Bible accounts in all things are believed by Christians to be fundamentally specific. Jesus walked on water. He healed the blind with mud. He raised the dead after three days. If Jesus was turning water into grape juice the Bible would have stated that too. It didn't. Jesus turned water into wine.
Deal with it. But don't try to rewrite Gods word because you can't.

Bible Highlighter · Sep 19, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
You are stretching that beyond the breaking point.

And what's more important to you?
Defending a drug that destroys lives every day or defending the idea that we are to walk soberly and righteously like Christ?
You know, that whole pick up your cross and deny yourself thing?
That is what Jesus wants from us.
Jesus is not about us living for ourselves here.

...

CaptainToad · Sep 19, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Jesus has the power to create anything He wants. But seeing Jesus never created death before (which would be a substance or byproduct of the yeast that has fed upon the life of the grape), it seems morely likely he created a substance that was straight from life itself. Alcoholic wine is the process of death. If you believe Jesus created a process of death, then go right ahead and believe that. But that is not what happened. As for alcohol: It takes certain conditions and time for freshly squeezed grape juice to turn alcoholic.

First, it takes 2-3 weeks for crushed grapes to fully ferment:
https://www.reference.com/food/long-grapes-ferment-bc5818d20b92a077

Second, the Israelites could have drank freshly squeezed grape juice straight from the vine.
The concept of storing everything comes from our modern age because we have fridgerators with ice cuber makers and coolers within our cars and stuff.

...

Jesus never created death?
How far fetched is that?

I

Jason0047 said:
Jesus has the power to create anything He wants. But seeing Jesus never created death before (which would be a substance or byproduct of the yeast that has fed upon the life of the grape), it seems morely likely he created a substance that was straight from life itself. Alcoholic wine is the process of death. If you believe Jesus created a process of death, then go right ahead and believe that. But that is not what happened. As for alcohol: It takes certain conditions and time for freshly squeezed grape juice to turn alcoholic.

First, it takes 2-3 weeks for crushed grapes to fully ferment:
https://www.reference.com/food/long-grapes-ferment-bc5818d20b92a077

Second, the Israelites could have drank freshly squeezed grape juice straight from the vine.
The concept of storing everything comes from our modern age because we have fridgerators with ice cuber makers and coolers within our cars and stuff.

...

Process of death? You must be kidding?
So fermentation (i dont call it death btw) was not part of creation then? God created grapes and where did fermentation come from? Thr devil?

Dave-W · Sep 19, 2016

Jason0047 said:
Also, it has been recorded in history that certain wine makers in the ancient past had kept the wine cool by storing it in clay jars and sealing them up and by placing them at the bottom of the water. They also boiled grape juice back in ancient times too.

Any evidence of such a thing happening in the Near East in the first century? (or before?)

I marvel at the lengths some will go to in order to make the bible conform to their doctrines rather than let the peshat (plain meaning) of the text form the doctrines.

CaptainToad · Sep 19, 2016

Jason0047 said:
And what's more important to you?
Defending a drug that destroys lives every day or defending the idea that we are to walk soberly and righteously like Christ?
You know, that whole pick up your cross and deny yourself thing?
That is what Jesus wants from us.
Jesus is not about us living for ourselves here.

...

Do you drive a car? Destroys lifes every day. Can even destroy yours.

CaptainToad · Sep 19, 2016

DaveW-Ohev said:
You are stretching that beyond the breaking point.

☺

VanillaSunflowers · Sep 19, 2016

Jason0047 said:
As for alcohol: It takes certain conditions and time for freshly squeezed grape juice to turn alcoholic.

First, it takes 2-3 weeks for crushed grapes to fully ferment:
https://www.reference.com/food/long-grapes-ferment-bc5818d20b92a077

You're actually trying to argue that it was grape juice that Jesus created from water? Because it takes two weeks for crushed grapes to fully ferment?

Dave-W · Sep 19, 2016

Jason0047 said:
And what's more important to you?
Defending a drug that destroys lives every day or defending the idea that we are to walk soberly and righteously like Christ?

What is more important to me is not defending some doctrinal principle that does not agree with history or scripture. I defend the plain meaning of scripture, not adding to it or subtracting from it.

Drinking a beer does not go against Bible

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