What ARE GHOSTS?

I would like to offer this:

The Bible makes reference to 'entertaining demons'. It doesn't use the exact wording, but if one reads and understands all that the Bible offers concerning 'demons', it is clear that one must 'open up a door' and let them in. Whether intentional or not, they basically need to be 'invited' in in order to have any significant influence.

Now, once invited in and 'entertained', (you know, out of the blue you have a 'thought' or 'idea' that seems utterly foreign to you? And instead of just 'letting it pass', you 'entertain it': continue down the avenue of 'not letting it go'), a demon has a vast amount of 'power' you have given it. The more you 'entertain it', the more power it has. Not only power to influence your thoughts, but if you entertain demons 'enough', they can gain power over your body itself. They can gain limited 'control' of your own body.

We know this for the story of the man that came to Jesus stating that his son had a demon that made him 'fall into fire' or 'fall into water' in an attempt to kill him. That means that the demon mentioned had gained control over the body of the child. It is your mind that controls your body. And if you relinquish the control of your mind to demons, they can then temporarily control you body as well.

With this in mind, I go back to one of my first statements. I don't believe ghosts are demons, but demons could certainly be responsible for making one's mind believe they have seen things that don't really exist. In other words, those that tell stories about 'seeing ghosts', may truly believe that they have seen something that doesn't really exist. And it may well be 'demons' that have influenced their minds to 'think' they have seen things that don't really exist except 'in their minds'.

Blessings,

MEC

Bob Crowley said:

Through the "Refiner's fire" ... I'm sure you've heard that term around in Christian circles. It's not idle chit chat either.

1 Corinthians 3:12 - 15 NIV

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The passage (1 Corinthians 3:12-15) is using an illustration of things going through fire as a description of believers’ works being judged. If our works are of good quality “gold, sliver, costly stones,” they will pass through the fire unharmed, and we will be rewarded for them. If our works are of poor quality “wood, hay, and straw,” they will be consumed by the fire, and there will be no reward. The passage does not say that believers pass through the fire, but rather that a believer’s works pass through the fire. 1 Corinthians 3:15 refers to the believer “escaping through the flames,” not “being cleansed by the flames.”

Purgatory, like many other Catholic dogmas, is based on a misunderstanding of the nature of Christ’s sacrifice. Catholics view the Mass / Eucharist as a re-presentation of Christ’s sacrifice because they fail to understand that Jesus’ once-for-all sacrifice was absolutely and perfectly sufficient (Hebrews 7:27). Catholics view meritorious works as contributing to salvation due to a failure to recognize that Jesus’ sacrificial payment has no need of additional “contribution” (Ephesians 2:8-9). Similarly, Purgatory is understood by Catholics as a place of cleansing in preparation for heaven because they do not recognize that because of Jesus’ sacrifice, we are already cleansed, declared righteous, forgiven, redeemed, reconciled, and sanctified.

The very idea of Purgatory and the doctrines that are often attached to it (prayer for the dead, indulgences, meritorious works on behalf of the dead, etc.) all fail to recognize that Jesus’ death was sufficient to pay the penalty for ALL of our sins. Jesus, who was God incarnate (John 1:1,14), paid an infinite price for our sin. Jesus died for our sins (1 Corinthians 15:3). Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for our sins (1 John 2:2). To limit Jesus’ sacrifice to atoning for original sin, or sins committed before salvation, is an attack on the Person and Work of Jesus Christ. If we must in any sense pay for, atone for, or suffer because of our sins – that indicates Jesus’ death was not a perfect, complete, and sufficient sacrifice.

For believers, after death is to be "away from the body and at home with the Lord" (2 Corinthians 5:6-8; Philippians 1:23). Notice that this does not say "away from the body, in Purgatory with the cleansing fire." No, because of the perfection, completion, and sufficiency of Jesus' sacrifice, we are immediately in the Lord's presence after death, fully cleansed, free from sin, glorified, perfected, and ultimately sanctified.

Imagican said:

I would like to offer this:

The Bible makes reference to 'entertaining demons'. It doesn't use the exact wording, but if one reads and understands all that the Bible offers concerning 'demons', it is clear that one must 'open up a door' and let them in. Whether intentional or not, they basically need to be 'invited' in in order to have any significant influence.

Now, once invited in and 'entertained', (you know, out of the blue you have a 'thought' or 'idea' that seems utterly foreign to you? And instead of just 'letting it pass', you 'entertain it': continue down the avenue of 'not letting it go'), a demon has a vast amount of 'power' you have given it. The more you 'entertain it', the more power it has. Not only power to influence your thoughts, but if you entertain demons 'enough', they can gain power over your body itself. They can gain limited 'control' of your own body.

We know this for the story of the man that came to Jesus stating that his son had a demon that made him 'fall into fire' or 'fall into water' in an attempt to kill him. That means that the demon mentioned had gained control over the body of the child. It is your mind that controls your body. And if you relinquish the control of your mind to demons, they can then temporarily control you body as well.

With this in mind, I go back to one of my first statements. I don't believe ghosts are demons, but demons could certainly be responsible for making one's mind believe they have seen things that don't really exist. In other words, those that tell stories about 'seeing ghosts', may truly believe that they have seen something that doesn't really exist. And it may well be 'demons' that have influenced their minds to 'think' they have seen things that don't really exist except 'in their minds'.

Blessings,

MEC

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Can you give me the verse of that reference @Imagican?

By the way, kudos to you for your very excellent posts in this thread.

Imagican said:

Exactly how profound must an effect be before it can be diagnosed?

Blessings,

MEC

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If I see 100,000 USD or more in my bank account, then I'll have myself diagnosed (I only have 500 USD in the real world!)

As long as I see that 500 USD in my bank, then I'm confident that I'm in no way suffering from any form of mental illness, nor delusions, nor hallucinations both temporal and permanent!

Wgw said:

Can you give me the verse of that reference @Imagican?

By the way, kudos to you for your very excellent posts in this thread.

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No. There is no single verse that speaks of 'entertaining demons'.

But here is how I have come to this conclusion 'through scripture'.

We are told that many have entertained 'angels unaware'.

Demons were once angels. So it only stands to reason that we are indeed capable of entertaining demons.

Since we have been given the power and authority to 'cast out' demons, we are certainly capable of retaining them.

Since we are given the power to resist, we are also capable of 'not resisting'. Even the power to entertain them by allowing their influence to become our own thoughts or actions.

Possession isn't a 'secret'. It's mentioned in the Bible more than many things we've been offered in instruction.

But God's word has a very limited amount of information that could be used to deliberately 'follow Satan' or 'entertain demons'. That's on purpose. The Bible isn't an instruction manual on how to follow Satan, but God. For those that want to follow Satan, they are pretty much forced to find a different source of information to follow other than the Bible.

Now let's add a bit of personal experience.

I can recall and be honest with myself. I can attest to being 'influenced' by demons. Overcoming influence at times, allowing that influence into my heart at other times.

It is my belief that there is a difference between two distinctive groups of people. Some people not only allow the influence of demons, they entertain the demons and allow the influence to literally become a 'part of themselves'.

I often recognized 'foreign thoughts' and 'ideas'. Most people are so 'caught up' in 'this world', they aren't capable of such recognition. They accept 'foreign thoughts' as their own without ever questioning the 'source'.

If demons have the ability to introduce thoughts. And eventually develop the power to actually control one's mind to the point that they can control the physical actions of an individual, obviously we have to somehow 'allow' it to gain such control. And it's my belief, (and what I consider understanding), that they gain such control by being 'entertained'. Instead of resisting, some 'entertain' and allow demons to become a literal 'part of themselves'.

Blessings,

MEC

I know: Hocus Pocus, right?

Not according to the Bible. Demons are as real as anything else in the Bible. Evil spirits, unclean spirits, whatever one chooses to label them: 'fallen angels'. They are 'real'.

Ghosts? I have no significant evidence of ghosts other than 'stories' offered by 'people'. And a bunch of 'doctored' photos. If they were 'real', why are all the pictures of them 'faked'?

Blessings,

MEC

I don't know what to say. In the story of Lazarus told by Jesus, the rich man who died and was condemned for eternity in some place that at least sounded like hell wanted to warn his family members not to end up like him, but was not allowed to do so.

In the OT, the medium who was visited by Saul did summon Samuel who has been dead for some time, but Samuel prophesized to Saul that he and his sons will die during war and will be in the realm of the dead with Samuel.

So, it sounds like people who die aren't given any time to fool around in this world of the living.

There are 'familiar spirits' which appear to be 'demons'. But as far as we know, they have neer lived in the physical sense. As far as we know, there is no indication that they can be 'seen'. All that is offered in the Bible indicates that they are indeed: 'spirits'. And as such, cannot be 'seen' by the naked eye.

But if an 'evil spirit' can cause a person to cut themselves with stones, or fall into fire or water, it's pretty obvious that under certain circumstances, a demon can manifest all sorts of effects upon those possessed. It isn't a stretch to realize that if they can control one's physical body, (which is controlled by the mind), they could certainly manifest 'visions' or 'hallucinations' in one possessed.

If given the 'power', there is little doubt that an 'evil spirit': demon, could cause one possessed to hear 'voices', see things like ghosts, all sorts of supernatural experiences could be the case if one were to give them enough power to control one's mind.

And it is my belief that it's a matter of 'entertaining demons' that gives them more power. When they introduced some means of influence, it's up to the host to either accept or deny the influence. If one accepts it and makes it 'their own', at this point they are actually granting 'power' to the demon and it's influence. The more often one grants power to the demon, the stronger and more powerful the demon becomes. At some point, demons are obviously able to control one's physical body through their mind.

How often do we hear someone saying: "I lost control"? If the person who makes such a statement is being truthful, if they lost control, then who or what was 'in control'? For certainly the one that stabs someone a hundred times and when asked why says, "I lost control" wasn't without 'something' controlling their actions. If it wasn't themselves, then 'who or what'? To stab someone a hundred times means that something was controlling their mind each and every time they plunged a knife into someone.

And dreams. What kind of influence might demons have upon one's subconscious? When they are dreaming. And we all know the potential effects of dreams. I know that I have had dreams that affected me for days. And I have had recurring dreams that are almost exactly alike at different times.

What if our dreams are capable of effecting our subconscious to the extent that the effects can manifest themselves consciously. Which we know can happen. But what if there are forces that can control our dreams to the point that our dreams can be used as additional influence from an outside source other than God. What if demons or Satan himself is able to alter our dreams in order to influence our conscious behavior?

I know that the majority of those 'of this world' would find these words amusing. Bordering on just outright: "nuts". But we do have the Bible which offers quite a bit of information about the ability to 'the Devil' and 'evil spirits' to influence the actions of those who host them.

For many years I pretty much ignored the issue. Just kind of pretended that it didn't really matter if one believed what we are offered about 'evil spirits'.

But at one point it was prudent to make a decision. "Do I really 'believe' what the Bible offers?" At the point that my decision was 'yes', the issue of demons and 'evil spirits' could no longer be ignored. It's either the truth, or it's not. If it is, then the words that I have offered are not as 'nuts' as they may seem to one that has yet to come to the conclusion that the words we are offered in the Bible are truth.

Are demons 'real'? According to the Bible they are. Are 'ghosts' real? The only ghost I'm aware of mentioned in the Bible is 'The Holy Ghost'. Which isn't a 'ghost' in the physical or supernatural sense of 'white sheets' or semi transparent 'spooks' that many claim to have seen.

The 'only ghosts' I've ever 'seen' were in the 'movies'.

Blessings,

MEC

I believe that there are good spirits and evil spirits. For example:

Good:
No threats
No bribes
No mocking
No lying
Not being horrible to other people
Not saying horrible things about God
No foul language
Feels positive
Being polite.

Evil:
Feels negative
Threats
Bribing
Mocking
Swearing
Violence
Not asking for permission
Lying

(Found info from Google).

Linet Kihonge said:

There have been lots of back and forth on Spirits, glorified bodies, the asleep (sleepers), the NDE (the most heinous comment was NDE effects were hallucinations) and therefore, I want to know what the hell are GHOSTS. If people die and their spirits remain in the Spiritual realms and if in deed it is true that it's ONLY Spirits can See Each other. Then what types of Spirits are Ghosts because they are neither glorified bodies nor are they (genuinely) people's souls.


So let's call a Spade a Spade!

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There are no such things as ghosts. Many claim they are the part of man that continues on after death. However, the Bible teaches no such thing. The Bible is clear on what a man is an what he is made of. Man is a flesh body with the breath of God breathed into him. When he dies the breath of God returns to God and the man returns to the dust. That is what the Bible teaches.

The idea that man is a spirit that lives on after the body dies is a concept from Greek philosophy. It was popular among the Greeks at the time of the NT. It was popularized by Plato.

Linet Kihonge said:

I need to read more of such! Man has no business on earth after he's 6ft underground!

Thank YOU!

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You're welcome! If you are interested in this subject I can give you few links to some in depth teaching on the subject.

http://www.answersinrevelation.org/Hell.html

and

http://www.oasischristianchurch.org/bbi_04.html

If there 'were' ghosts, why doesn't 'everyone' encounter them? In other words, if there are 'spirits' that are not satisfied with death and linger on, why doesn't everyone come in contact with them? Certainly there must be millions upon millions upon millions of those that are not content with 'dying'.

So what would make one individual capable of lingering on different from all others unsatisfied with 'death'? In other words, wouldn't 'all' who are dissatisfied be equal in their ability to 'linger on'? And if there are 'billions' of ghosts, wouldn't we 'all' be capable of their influence or appearance?

And isn't it strange that we have no 'mass ghost sightings'. You know, groups of dozens or so that 'all' see the same ghosts at the same time? Instead, it always seems to be one or two people that 'tell their stories' of seeing ghosts. Kind of like 'alien' encounters.

And why would 'ghosts' be a 'secret'? No mention of them in the Bible. No actual evidence whatsoever except the 'stories' of those that tell them. You know, kind of like Bigfoot.

It would seem that one 'must believe' in ghosts in order to ever encounter them. And then the rest of the people that believe in ghosts believe in them because of the 'stories' of those that tell them. Seems to be a kind of 'self delusion' from my perspective. They are 'real' because people tell 'stories' about them.

You know, a few hundred years ago and continuing back throughout history, man's understanding was very limited. So it makes perfect sense that those that couldn't explain things that they experienced were considered to be 'mystical' or 'magical'. You know, like ferries and trolls and such. And isn't it obvious that 'one story' can often generate the masses considering even the most absurd? Look at all those that believe in aliens with no other evidence than the 'stories of others'. Look at all who believe in Bigfoot with absolutely no proven evidence. Just stories of those that claim to have seen Bigfoot.
Yet there is absolutely 'no' physical evidence. No hair, no dung, no bones. Not even in the fossil evidence. And wouldn't it have to be: BigFOOTS. For it seems that Bigfoot has been sighted in just about every state in America. And if there are 'many', why hasn't ONE been captured or produced a single shred of evidence of their existence? Other than 'stories'.

And I'm not saying that every 'story' is without some basis in fact. Oftentimes people see things that 'look' like something different than what they really are. So all that tell such stories are not of a necessity trying to 'make up' a story or lie about what they have seen. But isn't it possible that 'mistaken identity' could be responsible for many of the 'stories'? You know, like someone seeing a 'bear' through some bushes and trees and 'thinking' it's something different than what it really was?

And why would such things as aliens and Bigfoot be 'so elusive'? In this day and age with all the technology we have, we can determine when much smaller animals become extinct. When men place hundreds of motions cameras in the entire area where animals once existed, leave them there and collect evidence for a decade with no sightings, spend thousands of hours personally trekking through the area with no evidence produced, it become apparent that the animal being sought no longer exists in the area. And this is the case with Bigfoot. No one that has been LOOKING for Bigfoot has ever found 'any' evidence. Yet the stories live on and those that 'believe' the stories continue the believe them.

Ghosts? So far as the evidence is concerned, they are just stories.

Blessings,

MEC

"The Bible does talk about Ghosts, and the spirit of the dead returning to the earth.

In the Old Testament book of 1 Samuel chapter 28:7-25 we see Saul King of Israel visit a medium when God does not answer him when war approaches. The prophet Samuel has died and King Saul asks the medium to bring up Samuel from the dead. The Ghost of Samuel talks to the King and tells him his fate is sealed just as he told him while he was alive. Verses 11-15 talk about the appearance of the Ghost of Samuel:


Then the woman said, “Whom shall I bring up for you?” And he said, “Bring up Samuel for me.” When the woman saw Samuel, she cried out with a loud voice. And the woman spoke to Saul, saying, “Why have you deceived me? For you are Saul!” And the king said to her, “Do not be afraid. What did you see?” And the woman said to Saul, “I saw a spirit ascending out of the earth.” So he said to her, “What is his form?” And she said, “An old man is coming up, and he is covered with a mantle.” And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground and bowed down. Now Samuel said to Saul, “Why have you disturbed me by bringing me up?”


The Bible clearly states that this is the Ghost of the prophet Samuel. Nowhere in the text does it state that he is otherwise. The spirit is the disembodied essence of the man, and he is recognizable. "

"Almost everyone has heard the story of Jesus walking on water, and if you ever went to Sunday School as a kid I am sure you additionally heard about Peter attempting to do the same and failing. This tale of trust and faith has been used for millennia to teach and encourage Christians. But just before the text talks about Peter’s attempt to come to Jesus on the water the text tells us something unusual:

Now in the fourth watch of the night Jesus went to them, walking on the sea. And when the disciples saw Him walking on the sea, they were troubled, saying, “It is a ghost!” And they cried out for fear.But immediately Jesus spoke to them, saying, “Be of good cheer! It is I; do not be afraid.” Matthew 14:25-27

The disciples thought Jesus was a ghost. And they were afraid. Now if ghostly apparitions are all demonic presences as some Christians report, why were the disciples afraid? Just a few chapters earlier Jesus had demonstrated how to exorcise evil spirits and then commissioned the disciples to go all over the land and do so.(Matthew 8:28-34, Matthew 10:1-4) Although not implicit in the text it would seem that they should have had some personal experience in exorcism by themselves. So why were they afraid? Because they believed in Ghosts-the disembodied spirits of the dead who still roam the earth. And not only that, Jesus did not rebuke them for thinking he was a Ghost, instead He just calmed them down and let them know it was Him. If the concept of a disembodied spirit is so unbiblical why did Jesus let his disciples believe such things exist without correction?"
http://theparanormalpastor.blogspot.com/2008/08/bible-and-paranormal-part-1-ghosts.html

Job 4:12 - 16...unclear who or what this spirit was, but it does NOT say it was an angel, and you can tell easily from the context this does not mean 'breath" as the Hebrew word Ruwach is occasionally translated...you can tell something ghostly actually appears

"Now a thing was secretly brought to me, and mine ear received a little thereof.
In thoughts from the visions of the night, when deep sleep falleth on men,
Fear came upon me, and trembling, which made all my bones to shake.
Then a spirit passed before my face; the hair of my flesh stood up:
It stood still, but I could not discern the form thereof: an image was before mine eyes, there was silence, and I heard a voice..."