Plato's Timaeus

anonymouswho

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I guess I don't know all there is to know about what defines all the 'isms...but it is interesting.

Certainly God is not outside anything, but is omnipresent. I believe it is easier to consider God looking down upon the earth, or looking in from the outside like we would look in on an aquarium...but in reality, it is almost the opposite. The world is rather a closed-circuit realm existing within the mind of God, in His imag-ination (so to speak).

Time, then, is simply a form of media: History, is His story. But He is timeless (without time), and so it is only the telling of the story that takes time. In fact, in God's timelessness, all the events of history occurr[ed] within the twinkling of an eye - His minds eye. Simultaneously, all that was became all that is...and - "It is finished." "It" being us and the new heaven and the new earth. God, on the other hand, did not change, but "expanded His tent pegs" to include...us. Isaiah 54:2

Hello Scott, sorry for such a long delay. I quoted a few verses to Tucker showing why I don't believe the Hebrew Scriptures describe a timeless, eternal god. This is my main concern. Like I asked him, if the Scriptures do not speak of an eternal god, what reason to I have to continue to think about him?

You say that God did not change, but extended his "tent leg". If God did not have this extended tent leg, and then at some "moment" He added this tent leg, how is this not considered a change? Physically, God has added something that before was not present.

Also, before the tent leg was extended, God infinitely in the past never desired the extension. Then at some "moment" in eternity, He must have decided to make the extension. How can a moment occur within eternity, and how can this decision not be understood as a change?

Thank you Scott.
 
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ScottA

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I don't believe the Hebrew Scriptures describe a timeless, eternal god. This is my main concern. Like I asked him, if the Scriptures do not speak of an eternal god, what reason to I have to continue to think about him?
Your perspective is one of time, but God's thoughts and ways are higher than that. And the scriptures do indeed speak of an eternal God in multiple places, who is "the same yesterday, today, and forever." How is it that you have missed that?
You say that God did not change, but extended his "tent leg". If God did not have this extended tent leg, and then at some "moment" He added this tent leg, how is this not considered a change? Physically, God has added something that before was not present.

Also, before the tent leg was extended, God infinitely in the past never desired the extension. Then at some "moment" in eternity, He must have decided to make the extension. How can a moment occur within eternity, and how can this decision not be understood as a change?
Not a tent "leg", but tent "pegs."

The expansion of His tent, or the "change"...is only a change from our perspective, a change in us. But we were always in Him. Moreover, God is "all in all"...so from His perspective, there is no change.

Example: If you created a computer game, a world where you battled your own internal issues with good and evil - then "finished" it, resolving the issue in your mind - then deleted the program...what would have actually changed? You would have been the same before, during, and after...and only the issues would have changed - but because you took the whole matter out of yourself and dealt with it externally - you would have remained the same.
 
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anonymouswho

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Your perspective is one of time, but God's thoughts and ways are higher than that. And the scriptures do indeed speak of an eternal God in multiple places, who is "the same yesterday, today, and forever." How is it that you have missed that?

Hey Scott. First, I agree that God's thoughts are higher than "our thoughts". However, I do not believe that God's thoughts are "so high they are outside the scope of reality and logic". His thoughts are higher than ours because our thoughts are filled with inconsistent, illogical nonsense. His thoughts are so true, there is nothing false about them.

Hebrews 13:8 says:

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever (to the ages)."

Perhaps you believe Yeshua is God, but Hebrews 1 and 2 make it pretty clear that he is a man. I see nothing about an eternal god here. I see a man that was the same in the past, is the same today, and will remain the same unto the ages. The verse does not say he was the same "infinitely in the past, today, and infinitely into the future". If Yeshua was this unmoving-mover, he could have never been born, walked around, and taught us anything through words. All of these things involve changing from one state into the next.

Not a tent "leg", but tent "pegs."

The expansion of His tent, or the "change"...is only a change from our perspective, a change in us. But we were always in Him. Moreover, God is "all in all"...so from His perspective, there is no change.

Example: If you created a computer game, a world where you battled your own internal issues with good and evil - then "finished" it, resolving the issue in your mind - then deleted the program...what would have actually changed? You would have been the same before, during, and after...and only the issues would have changed - but because you took the whole matter out of yourself and dealt with it externally - you would have remained the same.

I still don't understand. I apologize for saying "tent leg". I don't know why I said that. It rhymes, and after I wrote it once I just kept going with it.

If I create a computer game, I first had (past tense) to be in a state where I did not create the video game. Then I would have to move from that state into the state of creating. As I'm playing (verb- an action which involves movement) the game (I assume with a controller or keyboard) I would have to press buttons, which means my fingers would move from a state of rest to a state of movement. Once the issue is dealt with and deleted, I obviously had an issue that needed to be dealt with, and changed to a state where I no longer need to deal with it. Any movement whatsoever involves a change from one state to the next. Does that make sense?

Thank you.
 
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ScottA

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Hey Scott. First, I agree that God's thoughts are higher than "our thoughts". However, I do not believe that God's thoughts are "so high they are outside the scope of reality and logic".
You are being mindful of the things of men (Matthew 16:23), as if the "reality and logic" and the things of this world were more than evil. They are not.
Hebrews 13:8 says:

"Jesus Christ the same yesterday, and to day, and for ever (to the ages)."

Perhaps you believe Yeshua is God, but Hebrews 1 and 2 make it pretty clear that he is a man. I see nothing about an eternal god here. I see a man that was the same in the past, is the same today, and will remain the same unto the ages. The verse does not say he was the same "infinitely in the past, today, and infinitely into the future". If Yeshua was this unmoving-mover, he could have never been born, walked around, and taught us anything through words. All of these things involve changing from one state into the next.
You have picked just one passage. Of course there are many, but here is a better one:
Revelation 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.
If I create a computer game, I first had (past tense) to be in a state where I did not create the video game. Then I would have to move from that state into the state of creating. As I'm playing (verb- an action which involves movement) the game (I assume with a controller or keyboard) I would have to press buttons, which means my fingers would move from a state of rest to a state of movement. Once the issue is dealt with and deleted, I obviously had an issue that needed to be dealt with, and changed to a state where I no longer need to deal with it. Any movement whatsoever involves a change from one state to the next. Does that make sense?
Again, you are being mindful of the things of men and not the things of God - you assume a timeline with a before and after, where there is none. The analogy that I gave was only for you to imagine how such things might work - not to take it all in the context of men - not even, but rather in the context of God. This idea of "change" only exists within the minds of men: “For I am the Lord, I do not change;" Malachi 3:6
 
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anonymouswho

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You are being mindful of the things of men (Matthew 16:23), as if the "reality and logic" and the things of this world were more than evil. They are not.

I think it's a bit of a stretch to say Matthew 16:23 has Yeshua telling Peter that he is thinking too much about logic and reality.

You have picked just one passage. Of course there are many, but here is a better one:
Revelation 15:7
Then one of the four living creatures gave to the seven angels seven golden bowls full of the wrath of God who lives forever and ever.

"And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever [τοῦ (the) ζῶντος (living) εἰς (unto) τοὺς (the) αἰῶνας (ages) τῶν (of the) αἰώνων (ages)]" Revelation 15:7

I haven't found a single verse that says anything about an eternal god. What I'm looking for is a verse that says something like...

"You God, have no beginning"

Or...

"For God exists outside of time"

...something like that. I'm not concerned about whether God will continue to live forever. There is a "potential" to continue for an infinite amount of time, but the Christian god exists as an "actual" infinite. That's not only impossible and illogical, but I do not see any evidence that this is the God of the Scriptures (by Scriptures I mean the Hebrew Scriptures, but even in the other writings, I fail to see an eternal god).

Again, you are being mindful of the things of men and not the things of God - you assume a timeline with a before and after, where there is none. The analogy that I gave was only for you to imagine how such things might work - not to take it all in the context of men - not even, but rather in the context of God. This idea of "change" only exists within the minds of men: “For I am the Lord, I do not change;" Malachi 3:6

When I imagine your anology, I see change. Then when I see no change actually occurred, I see a contradiction. Then when I think about the God of Scripture, I see no evidence of such a being.

I agree that YHVH does not change. He has no need to. Once He went through the many series of changes to obtain all knowledge and wisdom, He no longer has a need to change because He has reached perfection.
 
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ScottA

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I think it's a bit of a stretch to say Matthew 16:23 has Yeshua telling Peter that he is thinking too much about logic and reality.
I was referring to your own use of the logic and reality [of this world], which Peter also used in that example.
"And one of the four beasts gave unto the seven angels seven golden vials full of the wrath of God, who liveth for ever and ever [τοῦ (the) ζῶντος (living) εἰς (unto) τοὺς (the) αἰῶνας (ages) τῶν (of the) αἰώνων (ages)]" Revelation 15:7

I haven't found a single verse that says anything about an eternal god. What I'm looking for is a verse that says something like...

"You God, have no beginning"

Or...

"For God exists outside of time"

...something like that. I'm not concerned about whether God will continue to live forever. There is a "potential" to continue for an infinite amount of time, but the Christian god exists as an "actual" infinite. That's not only impossible and illogical, but I do not see any evidence that this is the God of the Scriptures (by Scriptures I mean the Hebrew Scriptures, but even in the other writings, I fail to see an eternal god).
Your interpretation is pessimistic...and so you see those verses as against an eternal God instead of for Him. Which is the way of evil men. Nevertheless, those verses all tell of God as existing before and also after the whole of time..."...before the foundation of the world" John 17:24.
When I imagine your anology, I see change. Then when I see no change actually occurred, I see a contradiction. Then when I think about the God of Scripture, I see no evidence of such a being.

I agree that YHVH does not change. He has no need to. Once He went through the many series of changes to obtain all knowledge and wisdom, He no longer has a need to change because He has reached perfection.
You see through the lens of time, which is against God James 4:4.
 
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anonymouswho

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I was referring to your own use of the logic and reality [of this world], which Peter also used in that example.

I don't understand Peter's words as those of one using their own logic and reality concerning the world. I view his words as a declaration of fear. Yeshua told Peter that he was about to die, and this upset Peter. He didn't want to see his teacher, friend, and brother die. He wanted Yeshua to remain with them until old age, because Peter didn't understand that what Yeshua was about to do was going to enable all men to live much, much longer. And I think here lies the problem.

If aionios doesn't mean forever, then we could reason that God never said we will live forever. Which means our lives and everything may eventually come to an end. I want you to please consider a few things...

First, why does this matter? If I die tomorrow, and I go into a state of unconsciousness, I won't have the slightest clue that I'm dead or that I ever lived to begin with. I would be like the grass or a vapor that appears for a little while and quickly fades away. What am I going to do about it? Who can stop it? So why should I concern myself with such a thing? Instead, would it not be better to thank Him for the life He has given us, and carry on?

The second thing I want you to consider is that there is going to be a ressurection of the dead. I believe we will live again after death, and our memories and love will return to us. If God gives me say, another billion-gazillion years to live, I thank Him and enjoy my life. If God gives me another 20 years to live, I thank Him and enjoy my life.

The last thing is that the number infinity is impossible. It is impossible that I can live for "infinity" years. When can I say "I'm an infinity years old?" Next year, I surely won't be an infinity and one years old. Because this is impossible, it is impossible that anything real can exist as an "actual" infinity. I believe God is real. However, there is a "potential" for infinity, though that may not be the correct term either. What I mean is, we may all very well "live forever", but we cannot exist in a state of forever.

Aionios does not mean forever or eternal. When Yeshua says we will have aionios life and live unto the ages, this could "potentially" mean we live forever, but it is not necessarily so. If Yeshua says the wicked will recieve aionios chastisement, then it has the "potential" to be inflicted forever, but it is not necessary.

And for this reason, this matter is more important than our meaningless lives. For why should I hope to live forever if it necessarily follows that another will be chastised forever? I would rather die and never know anything again than spend my life wondering if another of God's children will suffer eternal torture and torment. Such an idea is "infinitely" pessimistic and "infinitely" evil.

Yeshua says:

"Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." Luke 17:33

Your interpretation is pessimistic...and so you see those verses as against an eternal God instead of for Him. Which is the way of evil men. Nevertheless, those verses all tell of God as existing before and also after the whole of time..."...before the foundation of the world" John 17:24.

I understand these verses as revealing to us a God that has existed before the ordered universe was formed. Not outside or before the bounds of time, but when the universe existed in a chaotic and constant state of movement. From this came YHVH our God- the first conscious being and Life. He separated matter and space, and said:

"Let there be light"

Thus giving order to this chaos so that we may live also. By saying "Let there be light (not "Let light be created from nothingness")", He set the past light-cone so that an effect can never precede it's cause. God is the Determiner, and He has a Reason (logos), and that reason is to make mankind in His image, after His likeness; and to have the knowledge, wisdom, and prudence to choose good.

You see through the lens of time, which is against God James 4:4.

When I hear Jacob (James) say "Adulterers!" I can't help but wonder if it's because the Hellenized Jews and Roman men that he was talking to were following Plato and Aristotle's "eternal god". They no longer knew the personal, living, only true God, who is one and the savior of all men. They knew an impersonal, immovable, illogical (or 'outside the bounds of logic' if you will) god-man, who is three and the savior of very, very, very few men.

I'm not trying to offend you Scott. I've always enjoyed reading your posts and I was very excited when I saw that you replied to my post. I could always tell that you are a man of reason. YHVH says:

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHVH: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:18

How can we reason with a God outside the bounds of reason? We cannot. But our God is the only true God, and His mercy endures unto the ages!
 
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ScottA

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I don't understand Peter's words as those of one using their own logic and reality concerning the world. I view his words as a declaration of fear. Yeshua told Peter that he was about to die, and this upset Peter. He didn't want to see his teacher, friend, and brother die. He wanted Yeshua to remain with them until old age, because Peter didn't understand that what Yeshua was about to do was going to enable all men to live much, much longer. And I think here lies the problem.

If aionios doesn't mean forever, then we could reason that God never said we will live forever. Which means our lives and everything may eventually come to an end. I want you to please consider a few things...

First, why does this matter? If I die tomorrow, and I go into a state of unconsciousness, I won't have the slightest clue that I'm dead or that I ever lived to begin with. I would be like the grass or a vapor that appears for a little while and quickly fades away. What am I going to do about it? Who can stop it? So why should I concern myself with such a thing? Instead, would it not be better to thank Him for the life He has given us, and carry on?
Again, you viewing all of this from the perspective of live in the world - our natural life and body. You are also mixing natural and spiritual truth, i.e., "grass" or "vapors", combined with our spiritual body. The two are completely different, and mixing the two has caused you to error in your understanding. But the whole point of those examples...is that they, by contrast, are here today and gone tomorrow...while the spirit is not. So, then, you are stumbling over the words too, and have not taken to heart what was said and also given in example.
The second thing I want you to consider is that there is going to be a ressurection of the dead. I believe we will live again after death, and our memories and love will return to us. If God gives me say, another billion-gazillion years to live, I thank Him and enjoy my life. If God gives me another 20 years to live, I thank Him and enjoy my life.
The days of the natural man are numbered, the days of the spiritual man are not. What you "believe", you believe because you do not "know."
The last thing is that the number infinity is impossible. It is impossible that I can live for "infinity" years. When can I say "I'm an infinity years old?" Next year, I surely won't be an infinity and one years old. Because this is impossible, it is impossible that anything real can exist as an "actual" infinity. I believe God is real. However, there is a "potential" for infinity, though that may not be the correct term either. What I mean is, we may all very well "live forever", but we cannot exist in a state of forever.

Aionios does not mean forever or eternal. When Yeshua says we will have aionios life and live unto the ages, this could "potentially" mean we live forever, but it is not necessarily so. If Yeshua says the wicked will recieve aionios chastisement, then it has the "potential" to be inflicted forever, but it is not necessary.

And for this reason, this matter is more important than our meaningless lives. For why should I hope to live forever if it necessarily follows that another will be chastised forever? I would rather die and never know anything again than spend my life wondering if another of God's children will suffer eternal torture and torment. Such an idea is "infinitely" pessimistic and "infinitely" evil.

Yeshua says:

"Whosoever shall seek to save his life shall lose it; and whosoever shall lose his life shall preserve it." Luke 17:33
You do not understand infinity. You speak of years and numbers, which are only a part of this world. Of course it doesn't work here - the world is passing away.
 
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ScottA

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I understand these verses as revealing to us a God that has existed before the ordered universe was formed. Not outside or before the bounds of time, but when the universe existed in a chaotic and constant state of movement. From this came YHVH our God- the first conscious being and Life. He separated matter and space, and said:

"Let there be light"

Thus giving order to this chaos so that we may live also. By saying "Let there be light (not "Let light be created from nothingness")", He set the past light-cone so that an effect can never precede it's cause. God is the Determiner, and He has a Reason (logos), and that reason is to make mankind in His image, after His likeness; and to have the knowledge, wisdom, and prudence to choose good.
No...He "created" "everything." Your interpretation is compete conjecture and nonsense.
When I hear Jacob (James) say "Adulterers!" I can't help but wonder if it's because the Hellenized Jews and Roman men that he was talking to were following Plato and Aristotle's "eternal god". They no longer knew the personal, living, only true God, who is one and the savior of all men. They knew an impersonal, immovable, illogical (or 'outside the bounds of logic' if you will) god-man, who is three and the savior of very, very, very few men.

I'm not trying to offend you Scott. I've always enjoyed reading your posts and I was very excited when I saw that you replied to my post. I could always tell that you are a man of reason. YHVH says:

"Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHVH: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:18

How can we reason with a God outside the bounds of reason? We cannot. But our God is the only true God, and His mercy endures unto the ages!
No offence taken, but I fear for you. You are relying on your own understanding, and it is all a mix of evil worldly nonsense together with your own feelings about what the scriptures mean, as apposed to having any real knowledge of the truth.

As for "reasoning together", that was an appeal to consider what God has done as being reasonable, rather than being contrary to what is perceived among men of the world. Men of God should have the ability to "go with God", to "renew their mind" according to the ways of God - not to reason among themselves, as it is apparent that you have done.
 
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tucker58

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Hello Tucker. Sorry for the delay. I've been at Biblical Hermeneutics on Stackexchange. You asked if we can know all of God's creation, and also what is outside of it. I have to humbly answer that I don't know what God will permit us to know. But then you said that you believe we can know "parts" of it. And this is where I'm confused. How is it that an infinite entity can have "parts"?

I have some concerns with excepting experiences as divine revelations of truth. I cannot outright deny the importance of experiences; otherwise, why would I, a gentile American living 2000 some years after a Jewish man lived, believe anything he says if I did not experience his words as truth? I believe experiences are very important, because I believe that cause (experiences) and effect (outcomes) have determined every step I'll ever make and every thought I'll ever think.

However, to believe my experiences are truth would leave no room for correction. No matter what anyone tells me or what the Scriptures say, I could assert that everything I've experienced is true and I therefore know all things. I don't believe the God that Yeshua revealed to us is eternal, because I do not believe there is a word in the Scriptures that mean eternal. The God that Yeshua revealed to us is the God of the Hebrew Scriptures, so whatever qualities they ascribe to Him is our description of the only true God. Here is what I believe the Scriptures teach about our God:

"For a thousand years in thy sight are but as yesterday when it is past, and as a watch in the night." Psalm 90:4

This verse says a thousand years is like a day to God. Augustine says:

"In the eminence of thy ever-present eternity, thou precedest all times past, and extendest beyond all future times, for they are still to come — and when they have come, they will be past. But "Thou art always the Selfsame and thy years shall have no end." Thy years neither go nor come; but ours both go and come in order that all separate moments may come to pass. All thy years stand together as one, since they are abiding. Nor do thy years past exclude the years to come because thy years do not pass away. All these years of ours shall be with thee, when all of them shall have ceased to be. Thy years are but a day, and thy day is not recurrent, but always today. Thy "today" yields not to tomorrow and does not follow yesterday. Thy "today" is eternity.

— St. Augustine, Confessions, Book XI, Chapter XIII

That's not what the Scriptures say. Augustine made all of this up in his own head.

"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient (עַתִּיק H6268: ancient, aged) of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire." Daniel 7:9

Daniel says God is the ancient of days, not the eternal of days.

"Thus saith YHVH the King of Israel, and his redeemer YHVH of hosts; I am the first, and I am the last; and beside me there is no God." Isaiah 44:6

YHVH says He is the first and the last. Not before the first, not outside of the first, but He is the first.

"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting (עוֹלָם olam H5769: antiquity, futurity, long time) to everlasting (עוֹלָם olam), thou art God." Psalm 90:2

Olam is equivalent to aionios in Greek, which means "age-enduring". So God is from past ages to future ages. This does not say He is timeless, just very old and still has many more years to go.

God speaks. In order to speak, one must be in a condition of not speaking, and then a change must occur where words are uttered. If God was timeless and unchanging, He could not speak. He specifically tells us this is something that sets Him apart from the false gods:

"They are upright as the palm tree, but speak not: they must needs be borne, because they cannot go. Be not afraid of them; for they cannot do evil, neither also is it in them to do good.

Forasmuch as there is none like unto thee, O Lord; thou art great, and thy name is great in might." Jeremiah 10:7

"Wherefore should the heathen say, Where is now their God?

But our God is in the heavens: he hath done whatsoever he hath pleased.

Their idols are silver and gold, the work of men's hands.

They have mouths, but they speak not: eyes have they, but they see not:

They have ears, but they hear not: noses have they, but they smell not:

They have hands, but they handle not: feet have they, but they walk not: neither speak they through their throat.

They that make them are like unto them; so is every one that trusteth in them." Psalm 115:2

So my question does not concern whether it is possible this eternal god exists. I simply want to know where in the Scriptures it speaks of him. If they do not, then what reason do I have to even continue to think about him?

Thank you tucker and God bless you my friend.

Anonymouswho, you present an interesting approach to things :) . Humm? "Why should you continue to think about God if scripture does not say that God is "eternal"?" Well anonymouswho, I can't think of any reason why you personally should think about God whether God is eternal or not. I met God through Lord Jesus when I was five years old, over sixty years ago, and He and Lord Jesus have been a part of my life from that time on. I have years of experience with Them on a one on one bases through thick and thin. Without that experience I would probably be inclined to look at things like you do. And based on that experience a thinking mind can never know God, only a quiet mind can know God. And only a quiet mind in the presence of Lord Jesus can know the Father of Lord Jesus.

Is the God of the Old Testament, the God of Moses, the same God as the Father of Lord Jesus"? I don't know, both are real. All I know, is that the presence of Lord Jesus changes everything. You can know God through Lord Jesus, but knowing God without the presence of Lord Jesus is something that is beyond my ability, I am just way not pure enough.

So anyway Anonymouswho, thinking about God without the presence of Lord Jesus is a waste of time. You are better off to go live your life as a loving and compassionate person and not worry about it.
 
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ClementofA

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"Before the mountains were brought forth, or ever thou hadst formed the earth and the world, even from everlasting (עוֹלָם olam H5769: antiquity, futurity, long time) to everlasting (עוֹלָם olam), thou art God." Psalm 90:2

Olam is equivalent to aionios in Greek, which means "age-enduring". So God is from past ages to future ages. This does not say He is timeless, just very old and still has many more years to go.

Excellent posts anon.

For now I just wanted to offer you this from Psalm 102:27:

JPS Tanakh 1917
But Thou art the selfsame, And Thy years shall have no end.
 
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ClementofA

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If aionios doesn't mean forever, then we could reason that God never said we will live forever. Which means our lives and everything may eventually come to an end. I want you to please consider a few things...

First, why does this matter? If I die tomorrow, and I go into a state of unconsciousness, I won't have the slightest clue that I'm dead or that I ever lived to begin with. I would be like the grass or a vapor that appears for a little while and quickly fades away. What am I going to do about it? Who can stop it? So why should I concern myself with such a thing? Instead, would it not be better to thank Him for the life He has given us, and carry on?

The second thing I want you to consider is that there is going to be a ressurection of the dead. I believe we will live again after death, and our memories and love will return to us. If God gives me say, another billion-gazillion years to live, I thank Him and enjoy my life. If God gives me another 20 years to live, I thank Him and enjoy my life.

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Aionios does not mean forever or eternal. When Yeshua says we will have aionios life and live unto the ages, this could "potentially" mean we live forever, but it is not necessarily so. If Yeshua says the wicked will recieve aionios chastisement, then it has the "potential" to be inflicted forever, but it is not necessary.

And for this reason, this matter is more important than our meaningless lives. For why should I hope to live forever if it necessarily follows that another will be chastised forever? I would rather die and never know anything again than spend my life wondering if another of God's children will suffer eternal torture and torment. Such an idea is "infinitely" pessimistic and "infinitely" evil.
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"Come now, and let us reason together, saith YHVH: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool." Isaiah 1:18

How can we reason with a God outside the bounds of reason? We cannot. But our God is the only true God, and His mercy endures unto the ages!

I like your way of thinking, anon.

Re aionion, transliterated eonian, i do not see our future endless life with God depending on this word. IMO other words of Scripture serve this purpose, such as the promise we will have "immortality".

As to who can stop death, well, no one, unless it is God. So why worry about the inevitable. What are you going to do, seek a vampire to turn you into an immortal? Instead, put your hand in the hand of the One Who made the waters.

"His mercy endures unto the ages." Truly it does, not just unto the end of this age. Until it is needed no more, for then God will be "All in all" (1 Cor.15:22-28).
 
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