once saved always saved?

I do not think it is as easy to be lost as some suggest. Getting saved required an act of God. It would seem that getting lost again once one was saved would also require an act of God. IOWs you do not have the power within yourself to "decide" whether you are lost or saved. That is His business not yours. Either way up or down would require a miracle on His part to change you from one to the other.
The fact that the Corinthian fornicator was still considered saved in the midst of his fornication says a lot. As does the 1st John 5 passage about "Sin unto death" and "sin not unto death."
It is kind of a lost argument to say believers cannot ever be lost.... I am just saying it is not a matter of sinning or backsliding or such. It is a matter of God having to deal with you.
Peace

Didaskalos said:

I do not think it is as easy to be lost as some suggest. Getting saved required an act of God. It would seem that getting lost again once one was saved would also require an act of God. IOWs you do not have the power within yourself to "decide" whether you are lost or saved. That is His business not yours. Either way up or down would require a miracle on His part to change you from one to the other.
The fact that the Corinthian fornicator was still considered saved in the midst of his fornication says a lot. As does the 1st John 5 passage about "Sin unto death" and "sin not unto death."
It is kind of a lost argument to say believers cannot ever be lost.... I am just saying it is not a matter of sinning or backsliding or such. It is a matter of God having to deal with you.
Peace

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Trusting the ml to be saved along with Jesus while simultaneously committing mortal sins as against venial sins, cud lead a person to lose salvation.

Well if you look at it from a logical perspective, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ,what could drive us from the love of Christ?

Didaskalos said:

I do not think it is as easy to be lost as some suggest. Getting saved required an act of God. It would seem that getting lost again once one was saved would also require an act of God. IOWs you do not have the power within yourself to "decide" whether you are lost or saved. That is His business not yours. Either way up or down would require a miracle on His part to change you from one to the other.

The fact that the Corinthian fornicator was still considered saved in the midst of his fornication says a lot. As does the 1st John 5 passage about "Sin unto death" and "sin not unto death." It is kind of a lost argument to say believers cannot ever be lost.... I am just saying it is not a matter of sinning or backsliding or such. It is a matter of God having to deal with you.
Peace

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Hi Dids... I do agree, and to add that with His plan by getting saved did require an act of God... (by the giving of His Son)... is the provisional beginning of His plan for mankind. The getting saved part was by our acceptance of the provision of Jesus Christ as the sacrificial lamb who paid the penalty (in full) in our place by the finished works of the cross, and is made readily available to "whosoever" believes... will receive this free gift from God.

If by meaning "within our fleshly selves" is absolutely correct, but now... Christ is abiding and residing (living) in us (Galatians 2:20), and with our new created and forever redeemed spirit (the real you), we also have the mind of Christ (1 Corinthians 2:16) that we can put on and can say with confidence... by grace through faith, I am saved...

I believe that ALL of the dealing that God made for us was already done at the cross. It is finished! Those of us who realize that our salvation IS a gift from God take comfort in His promise that He will never take His gifts back again. What a blessing to know how faithful our God is. And by His GRACE... even if we are faithless - He remains faithful.

By His Grace...

No disrespect to my Brothers in Christ in my statement.

I am baffled by how so many can read the same Word and have such a incredible misunderstanding among their Denominations.

It does not matter what Bible someone will come along with a theological perspective of their own accord.
The kicker is I believe the King James is on a 5 the grade comprehension level,and other translations cannot be much above that.
God's Word is plain truth,all you need do is believe it,to recieve it to the fullness of what God intended it for in your life.

I guess my post is a bit like Solomon in Ecclesiastes.

Ecclesiastes: 1. 12. I the Preacher was king over Israel in Jerusalem. 13. And I gave my heart to seek and search out by wisdom concerning all things that are done under heaven: this sore travail hath God given to the sons of man to be exercised therewith. 14. I have seen all the works that are done under the sun; and, behold, all is vanity and vexation of spirit.

How else could we mess up God's simple plan of salvation, but by vanity and vexation of spirit?

If the Word doesn't have it,don't put it there, if you don't like it don't take it out.

It doesn't matter if you can lose your salvation, who but a lunatic would try.
If your out of your mind you never lost salvation when you lost your mind,salvation is Spiritual not temporal.

Yet Churches split over wondering who just back slides to Hell.

The only answer as if we truly need one is ,there would be a soulish type of mental salvation with no indwelling of Christ.

And a Spiritual salvation where your spirit is joined with Christ.
The first example would be a pseudo Christian that would find turning back easy.

There are many pseudo People in the world, they are members of clubs that do good deeds.
They have great hospitals for kids and old folks homes,and believe in a God.

This type denies the only way to eternal life is through Christ Jesus, they think a last miniute ritual will save them in the end.

John: 3. 5. Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7. Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit. 9. Nicodemus answered and said unto him, How can these things be? 10. Jesus answered and said unto him, Art thou a master of Israel, and knowest not these things? 11. Verily, verily, I say unto thee, We speak that we do know, and testify that we have seen; and ye receive not our witness. 12. If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you of heavenly things?

now faith said:

Well if you look at it from a logical perspective, with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit ,what could drive us from the love of Christ?

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It was trust in knowledge of good & evil (called the moral law) that drove adam from the love of Christ.

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Could you please give a short textual summary of the viewpoints as youtube is not accessible in the country i am in?

Si, can you access Photobucket?

Been trying to upload the video to PB but evidently the site is whacked out for now, so I should ask if you can even view it before I keep trying.

As Dimpled shows, the video is quit good, beats the heck out of listening to me struggle with trying to make the point anyway.

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Please understand that this is the word-of-faith forum. This video that you have presented is sponsored by the Chinese CULT group called the The Eastern Lightening, also called The Church of The Almighty God and hides under several names over the years such as... "Finding The Shepherd", "The Congregation", "Oriental Lightning", "Seven Spirit Sect", among others.

This CULT was exposed just last year after posting on our WOF forum and had infiltrated in several other areas of the CF forum. It has started once again by this current poster. Various videos of this CULT is already NOW spreading in several areas of the forum by this same poster. Immediately after being exposed last year, every post of theirs on our CF forum (including Word-of-Faith), by the three CULT posters at that time were removed. I don't know if they removed themselves or the mods did it. So were my several posts exposing them were removed also. The main one pushing this CULT last year used the username of "Tree Trees."

Please "hear" every word in this video and you will find several cultic problem areas.

A WOF Forum Watchman...

First of all, it's unfortunate (even though the video is an acted out movie) that Lu's church had the appearance of the true church of Jesus Christ. It didn't take long however to see the snake (Dr. Cheng) behind the pulpit. It's interesting that he uses the term "once saved always saved" but yet has no problem "checking" out the young girls out in the congregation. And not to mention stealing offering money and getting one of the young girls pregnant. So, it shows that Dr. Cheng is an abuser of God's grace so therefore not walking in grace at all. So, was he saved at all? His ungodly lifestyle doesn't reveal that.

Now, I will begin to quote some of the errors along with the "estimated" time frames on the video.

1. Around time frame (23:54) The teacher says... "Jehovah and Jesus are one God?"


2. Around time frame (26:29) She continues... "Jesus came in the flesh and "returned" to China to the Eastern Lightening?"


3. Around time frame (33:02) The teacher continues... "Here, getting saved only means we are forgiven of our sins and are not condemned after we believe in Jesus. But we still have corrupt disposition and often commit sins and resist God. Then doesn't mean that we who often commit sins and resist God "always got saved?" "It doesn't mean that we have broken away from sin because we haven't broken away from sins. We still live in the falling life of committing sins in the day and confessing them at night and still can't break free from the bondage and restrictions of sins. The teacher continues... As Paul said,

(Romans 7:18b) "For to will is present with me for how to perform which is good, I find not. (verse 19) For the good that I would I do not. But the evil which I would not, that I do." (The teacher continues)... Although Apostle Paul was forgiven of his sins due to the Lord's salvation, the biggest misery in his heart was that he often committed sins and resisted God in spite of himself because of being unable to break free from the bondage and restrictions of sins. So Paul said helplessly, (verse 24) "O wretched man that I am! Who shall deliver me from the body of this death. (The teacher continues) "Sisters, isn't Paul's misery the misery of the brothers and sisters believing in the Lord today? Isn't the salvation that Paul eagerly wished to receive what we believers in the Lord (also) eagerly wish to receive today?"

The teacher continues... "Sister, especially believers in the end time have a deep experience of it. Man's heart is taken by various poisons and philosophies of Satan and man is filled with arrogance, selfishness, craftiness, greed, evil, and so on. So, we can still go with the world trend and associate with Satan, seeking after position, fame and gain, and money and enjoy the pleasure of sin. Even if one is familiar with the Bible, he can is no way break free from the bondage of sin. So, in the Age of the Grace, all believers in the Lord who have been redeemed by the Lord Jesus haven't truly broken away from Satan's influence of darkness and their heart hasn't been completely gained by God. Even if they have some changes in their outward behaviors and sometimes they can do some good things, their inner sinful nature still rules and controls them within, so that what they live out is still the corrupt satanic disposition and they haven't broken away from the bondage of sin.

Harry I thank you for taking the time to explain this cult movie,quite frankly I was wanting one to jump up and say WANNA FIGHT?
The voice overs reminded me of a computer generated scheme.

I went to sleep before she met the Chinese Jehovah Wittness ladies.

We have a lightning group here as well, white lightning folks who live in the mountains.

How does this garbage get pasted and stay there on our fourm anyway?
I have had enough stupidity this week,on television to last forever,let alone have to for bare a Chinese propaganda anti Christ film.

Rant over and out

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I'm not your friend or your sheep,but I can give you the Word before you leave for good.

Galatians: 1. 3. Grace be to you and peace from God the Father, and from our Lord Jesus Christ, 4. Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father: 5. To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen. 6. I marvel that ye are so soon removed from him that called you into the grace of Christ unto another gospel: 7. Which is not another; but there be some that trouble you, and would pervert the gospel of Christ. 8. But though we, or an angel from heaven, preach any other gospel unto you than that which we have preached unto you, let him be accursed. 9. As we said before, so say I now again, If any man preach any other gospel unto you than that ye have received, let him be accursed. 10. For do I now persuade men, or God? or do I seek to please men? for if I yet pleased men, I should not be the servant of Christ.

Now Go and repent and seek Christ with fear and trembling.

now faith said:

Harry I thank you for taking the time to explain this cult movie, quite frankly I was wanting one to jump up and say WANNA FIGHT?

How does this garbage get pasted and stay there on our forum anyway?

I have had enough stupidity this week, on television to last forever, let alone have to for bare a Chinese propaganda anti Christ film.

Rant over and out

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Good question John. Same thing as a year ago when they had (3) of their very professionally skilled trained posters that infiltrated the entire CF forum. All kinds of forum responders in many areas of the CF forum have welcomed them much to my surprise. Even a couple of "mods" were somewhat engulfed in this end-time deception back then. I even went to some of those other areas and warned them what they were dealing with. I also had several posts exposing this cult group (mostly in WOF) only to have them removed. After further research, I did find "one" post in another area that wasn't removed. I definitely copied that one and stored it in another area of my PC so it can't be deleted. I will do the same with my responses here.

It's amazing just how far and how long they "can" infiltrate our entire CF forum before someone speaks up. I have seen other cults even in my area in Ohio that are very deceptive but this Eastern Lightening cult group of "The Church of the Almighty God has an even higher level of deception. That's probably why I do watch every post in Word/Faith very carefully so too be aware of their presence.

In my "area" of northwest Ohio... we've had a major world wide cult just 26 miles south of me headquartered in the small village in New Knoxville, Ohio. Whoever reads this have probably heard about them called, "The Way International Worldwide" founded by Paul Wierwille that had over 100,000 members. If you look on the map below and see the City of Van Wert just 14 miles west of my town of Delphos... (my wife was from there), The cult leader (Wierwille) actually started his cult views (there) in Van Wert at a local Church of Christ. Pretty close to home, huh? Since the death of Paul Wierwille (founder) this group has reduced in numbers and "living low" for now. I do not know of their impact to the world today.



You can also notice on the map that their headquarters (New Knoxville) is south of Delphos just below St. Marys, Ohio. We are very fortunate to have a WOF friendly "friend" that visits us on our forum that you know by, "Bob Carabbio" who use to live in or around the Celina and St. Marys, Ohio area only a few miles from the Way International. He could probably tell us some stories of some of the stuff that went on depending when he lived there at the time.

To me, when something like this is exposed, you would think that CF forum would save some of the posts or threads started by these end-time deceivers so one can refer back to their earlier invasions and encounter this nonsense before they engraft themselves or get embedded in our entire forum, let alone... Word-of-Faith?

John, they have several videos even now infiltrating the forum in other areas by this same professionally trained author that leads me to go through all of them and expose their cultic areas. May take me a year, but I'm led to do it. I will do this as a library project on my own for future reference, if and when needed for further exposure.

For anyone that has an interest, I will end this with one of their main web homepage for "whosoever" wants to take the time to review. They may be exposed and leave for a while but they are not going away with their deception.

http://www.holyspiritspeaks.org/

Check out this area of GOSPEL QUESTIONS & ANSWERS. Click on "more" will take you to 100 questions explaining their deceptive beliefs.

Thanks John...

I said allot but got to deep..

This question never came from God. Heb 6 should be a easy answer. I am clueless as to why some think if you know God you NEVER want to leave. Your freedom does not get voided at the door (Christ). 2 Pet 2 these angels knew what they were giving up, they tasted they seen GOD in all His glory and still walked away sent to hell and in chains waiting for judgement. So what I or you personally think the word of GOD is really saying is not His word. Its like those that and GOD FORBID will take the mark. They know they are saying no to God and yes to the fallen one. They KNOW. This is why there is no forgiveness for them once its done. No one will be taking the mark unknowingly.

That being said I dont know of any sin that can break through bypass the BLOOD of a GOD (other then one). We all fall we all miss it we all at times get stuck in some sin lol this does not = not saved or never was. We all have this FLESH. We all have sin if we say we dont we deceive our sefls and the truth is not in us. We seem to think a lie a thought here and there is ok.. your still saved but oh if you miss it and have fallen.. they were never saved from the start. "from the start" something man made up this is not written. What I mean is ..we see them fall and some stay there and we then think ..oh they were never saved. Now to question their salvation is one but to simply say they were never saved. Yes we look for fruits but you know of many BRANCHES that LOOK dead yet are still part of the vine. The only one that KNOW is the one that reads the heart.

How can we know when all we see is a moment in time and then pass some judgement based on this one moment in time. God sees ALL of it. Any way. I can see both sides and can see the lawless one the fallen one putting that thought in a believer's mind for God did not. So if one wonders or fear pops up remember " grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." This is one of those verses man adds to "its not written that seal can not be broken" blood of Jesus.. who thinks this?

haha.. ask the Father, Son, Sweet sweet Holy Spirit "can I leave any time I want"..go for it. Anyway.. dont believe anything I say..you search you seek you ask.. He will show you in His word. I personally believe its far easier to be saved than to be lost. I ...blood of Jesus LONG to get rid of this flesh.. Praise GOD by the blood of Christ we are in right standing with the Father aka righteousness.

Thanks Harry,you know lima is a special place for me as well I had 12 cousins to visit when I was a kid there.
Aunt and Uncle had a big farm and a big family.
All of the cults are rude and pushy they invaded our Store front and had to brig in the high command to deal with me ,they tried to speak to my Wife alone,I walked up and they walked out.
I did not use violence or foul language to chase them away I used God's Word.
They were J.W. and they have tactics to decieve people.
I will help in any way I can Bro. God Bless.

I think its time to move forward.

Blade said:

I said allot but got to deep..

This question never came from God. Heb 6 should be a easy answer. I am clueless as to why some think if you know God you NEVER want to leave. Your freedom does not get voided at the door (Christ). 2 Pet 2 these angels knew what they were giving up, they tasted they seen GOD in all His glory and still walked away sent to hell and in chains waiting for judgement. So what I or you personally think the word of GOD is really saying is not His word. Its like those that and GOD FORBID will take the mark. They know they are saying no to God and yes to the fallen one. They KNOW. This is why there is no forgiveness for them once its done. No one will be taking the mark unknowingly.

That being said I dont know of any sin that can break through bypass the BLOOD of a GOD (other then one). We all fall we all miss it we all at times get stuck in some sin lol this does not = not saved or never was. We all have this FLESH. We all have sin if we say we dont we deceive our sefls and the truth is not in us. We seem to think a lie a thought here and there is ok.. your still saved but oh if you miss it and have fallen.. they were never saved from the start. "from the start" something man made up this is not written. What I mean is ..we see them fall and some stay there and we then think ..oh they were never saved. Now to question their salvation is one but to simply say they were never saved. Yes we look for fruits but you know of many BRANCHES that LOOK dead yet are still part of the vine. The only one that KNOW is the one that reads the heart.

How can we know when all we see is a moment in time and then pass some judgement based on this one moment in time. God sees ALL of it. Any way. I can see both sides and can see the lawless one the fallen one putting that thought in a believer's mind for God did not. So if one wonders or fear pops up remember " grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption." This is one of those verses man adds to "its not written that seal can not be broken" blood of Jesus.. who thinks this?

haha.. ask the Father, Son, Sweet sweet Holy Spirit "can I leave any time I want"..go for it. Anyway.. dont believe anything I say..you search you seek you ask.. He will show you in His word. I personally believe its far easier to be saved than to be lost. I ...blood of Jesus LONG to get rid of this flesh.. Praise GOD by the blood of Christ we are in right standing with the Father aka righteousness.

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What is the definition of "fall"?

Adam & eve fell not becz of violating the moral law -ml, but they fell becz they forsook the grace given by God only for the sake of the Person of His Son Jesus and instead chose the moral law by eating the forb fruit in eden.

Without being clear on what a fall is we cannot know how to rise.

Si_monfaith said:

What is the definition of "fall"?

Adam & eve fell not becz of violating the moral law -ml, but they fell becz they forsook the grace given by God only for the sake of the Person of His Son Jesus and instead chose the moral law by eating the forb fruit in eden.

Without being clear on what a fall is we cannot know how to rise.

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It was not a moral law that caused sin to enter this world,moral law is a result of the sin.

It was a commandment from God straight up,and Eve then Adam chose to disobey.

Sin brings death,the first death in this world was God covering their sin when he rent the skins of animals and covered their sin.

Cain disobeyed God in that he did not bring a blood sacrifice to God, and Able was killed and his blood was poured on the ground.

Hebrews: 12. 24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The moral law did not exist until God gave it to Moses.

now faith said:

It was not a moral law that caused sin to enter this world,moral law is a result of the sin.

It was a commandment from God straight up,and Eve then Adam chose to disobey.

Sin brings death,the first death in this world was God covering their sin when he rent the skins of animals and covered their sin.

Cain disobeyed God in that he did not bring a blood sacrifice to God, and Able was killed and his blood was poured on the ground.

Hebrews: 12. 24. And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The moral law did not exist until God gave it to Moses.

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Sin means missing the mark or violating the moral law.

Without law there is no transgression or violation (rom 4:15).

How could sin precede ml?

Moses law is just a written form of the knowledge of good & evil -kge which got downloaded into every human's heart due to eve's choice.

Moral law was also seen in hamurabi's code which precedes moses law.

Si_monfaith said:

Sin means missing the mark or violating the moral law.

Without law there is no transgression or violation (rom 4:15).

How could sin precede ml?

Moses law is just a written form of the knowledge of good & evil -kge which got downloaded into every human's heart due to eve's choice.

Moral law was also seen in hamurabi's code which precedes moses law.

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Romans: 8. 2. For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus hath made me free from the law of sin and death. 3. For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh: 4. That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. 5. For they that are after the flesh do mind the things of the flesh; but they that are after the Spirit the things of the Spirit. 6. For to be carnally minded is death; but to be spiritually minded is life and peace. 7. Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be. 8. So then they that are in the flesh cannot please God. 9. But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his. 10. And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness. 11. But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. 12. Therefore, brethren, we are debtors, not to the flesh, to live after the flesh. 13. For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. 14. For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.

As far as Harammabi's code I do not see it being used as biblical Canon, since it was a man made code from a king who practiced idolatry.

Nevertheless we have a better covenant in Christ Jesus ,and are free from the law of sin and death.

The Law of Moses was never downloaded into anyone but Isreal ,how be it there were Gentiles who were among the Children of Isreal who to dwell with them had to live by their Law.

Romans: 4. 14. For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect: 15. Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression. 16. Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all, 17. (As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.

The context of no law meaning no transgression simply means that by Faith through Grace brings us into the promise of Abraham through salvation.

We could not abide in the law to earn salvation,

It was by faith Abraham recieved the promise, not the law.

Hebrews: 11. 8. By faith Abraham, when he was called to go out into a place which he should after receive for an inheritance, obeyed; and he went out, not knowing whither he went. 9. By faith he sojourned in the land of promise, as in a strange country, dwelling in tabernacles with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise: 10. For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God. 11. Through faith also Sara herself received strength to conceive seed, and was delivered of a child when she was past age, because she judged him faithful who had promised. 12. Therefore sprang there even of one, and him as good as dead, so many as the stars of the sky in multitude, and as the sand which is by the sea shore innumerable. 13. These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth. 14. For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country. 15. And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned. 16. But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city. 17. By faith Abraham, when he was tried, offered up Isaac: and he that had received the promises offered up his only begotten son, 18. Of whom it was said, That in Isaac shall thy seed be called: 19. Accounting that God was able to raise him up, even from the dead; from whence also he received him in a figure.