Futurist Only A Scriptural Precedent

keras said:

But it will happen, because that is God's plan. Isaiah 14:26-27
You need to realize who are God's people. Galatians 4:29
The holy Land will be cleared and cleansed of every ungodly person at the Sixth Seal event. Jeremiah 12:14
A new nation will go to live there. Isaiah 62:1-5
They will select their own leaders: Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11
Only after all that is prophesied to happen takes place, will Jesus Return. Revelation 19:11

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We disagree, Keras. Nothing in the sixth seal or anything else until Jesus return makes me see what you are saying.

keras said:

Phew! Rather much to reply to here.
I do not believe in long Tribulation. The next event, the Sixth Seal will be great tribulation for the whole world, a devastation of the Middle East, Zephaniah 2:4-5, Ezekiel 30:1-5 and a disaster for the rest of the world. It will last only one Day.
The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, culminating with Armageddon and the Return, lasts 3.5 years.

The attack by a huge army from the North against the new nation that will live in all of the holy Land, will happen before the last 7 years. That nation will have no army or defenses because they will wholly trust in the Lord for their protection. He will destroy Gog/Magog in order to make Himself known, Ezekiel 38:23 and to display His glory, Ezekiel 39:21 These verses totally refute any notion that the G/M war is at the end of the Mill. That attack is just a type of the G/M attack. At the first one, the bodies are buried, at the last one they are instantly cremated.
Then, because Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, Matthew 21:43, is victorious over G/M, the leader of the One World Govt will come to them and negotiate a 7 year peace treaty with them.

Postview, You quoted Zechariah 14:1-4. Be aware this is talking about 2 different events. Verses 1-2 describe the conquest of Beulah by the Anti-Christ leader of the OWG, when he does the Abomination in the Temple. We know this happens 3.5 years before the Return of Jesus. Verse 3: THEN, the Lord will go out .....His feet will stand on the Mt of Olives..... Acts 1:11 Verses 1-2 must happen before verse 3.....
Combining the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls doesn't make any sense at all, they are all different events at different times, in the sequence as given.
Your rapture to heaven belief colors your thinking, but 'everyone' in the Sixth Seal event means just that. We will ALL be tested by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:13, 1 Peter 4:12

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That's one theory. It is a theory, because it's not found written in a straightforward way.

My theory is the seals, trumpets and bowls last seven years (complete) and that the primary force of Antichrist's reign is the latter 3.5 years. I believe each seal is 1 year and the seventh seal (seventh year) is composed of the seven trumpets and seven bowls. I have a reason for my theory but I won't know if it's correct unless I live long enough to see.

I don't believe in a rapture to heaven. What gave you that idea? I believe in a gathering in the sky before Jesus' thousand year reign. So I believe the resurrected/ glorified saints will go down to earth and reign with Jesus... not go to heaven.

In my opinion, the first part of Zechariah 14 is about the return of Christ and the second part is about the thousand year reign. When I'm listing Scriptures about the thousand year reign, by context you should not include the pieces that obviously don't include that. I don't think I should need to open Zechariah 14 and break it apart quoting only the verses for the thousand year reign. It takes too long to quote exact verses all the time when I can just give you a chapter. You attribute the first few verses before Jesus' return, but I don't. I believe that verses 1 through 15 are discussing Jesus' return and 16 through the end are the thousand year reign.

Looks like you and I are on two different planets when it comes to the Tribulation. That we're both convinced of a Post-Tribulation Resurrection Gathering is about our only agreement. One stark difference is you probably think you can survive the Tribulation if you live in Israel and I don't believe it's possible for Christians going into it to survive unless they are one of 144,000 Jewish believers who are sealed in Revelation 7:1-8. I fully expect to be beheaded in the Tribulation if I live long enough. Do I like that? No. But this is my understanding from the way I read the Bible.

keras said:

But it will happen, because that is God's plan. Isaiah 14:26-27
You need to realize who are God's people. Galatians 4:29
The holy Land will be cleared and cleansed of every ungodly person at the Sixth Seal event. Jeremiah 12:14
A new nation will go to live there. Isaiah 62:1-5
They will select their own leaders: Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11
Only after all that is prophesied to happen takes place, will Jesus Return. Revelation 19:11

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Your interpretation. Not mine.

Biblewriter said:

Now that the suffering is over, and the rest of the Holy Scriptures have been given to us, we realize that these prophecies spoke of the same Messiah, but at different times.

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Not at different times, but "manifest in the flesh, [and] justified in Spirit" 1 Timothy 3:16

Biblewriter said:

These scriptures cannot be describing the same event.

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The events are the same, but they are perceived differently in the flesh, than they are in the Spirit.

Luke17:37 said:

No; you have decided either that there's no literal millennial reign or that Gog/Magog has to be twice. You would not get that from reading it.

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I am not sure of what you are saying, but from the text of Revelation 20, there will be the millenial rule of Jesus here on this earth.

Luke17:37 said:

There's nothing stating that verse 28 isn't past tense. In fact, every verb is past tense. The formerly untested millennium people know Jesus more when they see Him destroy the peoples that come against them.

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I think it could be said that those people are unsaved. But I don't see anyway that they won't know who Jesus is, anymore less than Satan knew that God is God when Satan first rebelled and the third of the angels with him.

Ezekiel 38:8

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8 After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you will come into the land of those brought back from the sword and gathered from many people on the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate; they were brought out of the nations, and now all of them dwell safely.

This is consistent with the millennium - Jesus gathered them (Isaiah 27:12-13) and brought them peace (Isaiah 26:12, Isaiah 2). What compels you to think it's possible for Israel to live in peace, dwelling safely in their land without Jesus Himself doing it?

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Living in peace, dwelling safety in their land - in comparison to what the Jews suffered in the nations leading up to the return, and subsequent Arab/Israeli wars. Ezekiel 38:8 is the pre-Gog/Magog condition like it is now where a substantial number of Jews have returned and Israel become a nation again. Ezekiel 39:28 is the post Gog/Magog, and post Armageddon, and the Matthew 24:31 condition. Hard to communicate clearly to someone else, so I listed the sequence at the end of this post.

28. Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Then the millenium period begins.

This is never going to happen before Jesus returns, and frankly, the Jewish people can't possibly be brought to Israel and gathered from the nations to live at peace without Jesus doing it. They are presently surrounded by lots of people/nations who have expressed the desire to annihilate them.

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You are quote Isaiah 2. I agree that Isaiah 2 has to be after Jesus has returned. But Isaiah 2 is not Ezekiel 38:8.

Isaiah 2 would be in Ezekiel 39: 21-29, following the Armageddon feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

The sequence is...

1. Ezekiel 38- Ezekiel 39:16 - Gog/Magog
2. Then 7 years of Daniel 9:27
3. Then Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20
4. Then the 1000 year reign of Jesus Ezekiel 39:21-29
5. Then Satan's last great deception of the nations, drawing the Gog and Magog nations with him.
6. Destroyed by fire to consume them, and Satan and his rebellious angels held in captivity cast into the lake of fire.
7. Then resurrection of the dead, and the destruction of this present earth and heaven, with death and hell cast into the lake of fire.
8. Followed immediately by the great white throne judgment

Luke17:37 said:

In my opinion, the first part of Zechariah 14 is about the return of Christ and the second part is about the thousand year reign. When I'm listing Scriptures about the thousand year reign, by context you should not include the pieces that obviously don't include that. I don't think I should need to open Zechariah 14 and break it apart quoting only the verses for the thousand year reign. It takes too long to quote exact verses all the time when I can just give you a chapter. You attribute the first few verses before Jesus' return, but I don't. I believe that verses 1 through 15 are discussing Jesus' return and 16 through the end are the thousand year reign.

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Really? So when Jesus Returns, the houses will be ransacked and the women raped. I don't think so.
Zechariah 14:1-2 relates to Daniel 9:26 and Daniel 11:31, when the Anti-Christ comes in force to Beulah. The next 3.5 years is the Great Tribulation, but those who remain faithful to their God, Daniel 11:32 will be taken to a place of safety, on earth. Revelation 12:6

Douggg said:

1. Ezekiel 38- Ezekiel 39:16 - Gog/Magog
2. Then 7 years of Daniel 9:27
3. Then Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20
4. Then the 1000 year reign of Jesus Ezekiel 39:21-29
5. Then Satan's last great deception of the nations, drawing the Gog and Magog nations with him.
6. Destroyed by fire to consume them, and Satan and his rebellious angels held in captivity cast into the lake of fire.
7. Then resurrection of the dead, and the destruction of this present earth and heaven, with death and hell cast into the lake of fire.
8. Followed immediately by the resurrection of the dead and the great white throne judgment

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I agree with this sequence. Except Satan is only chained up not cast into the LoF until the end of the Mill.
But you have missed out what it is the commences the last events of this Church era.
It will be a reset of civilization, similar in magnitude to what happened in Noah's day. This time the Lord will use fire, and most people will survive, except in the Middle East, where all except a small Jewish remnant will die. Isaiah 22:14
This terrible Day of the Lord's wrath will be triggered by Iran attempting to fire nuke missiles at Israel. Jeremiah 49:35

Douggg said:

I am not sure of what you are saying, but from the text of Revelation 20, there will be the millenial rule of Jesus here on this earth.

I think it could be said that those people are unsaved. But I don't see anyway that they won't know who Jesus is, anymore less than Satan knew that God is God when Satan first rebelled and the third of the angels with him.


Living in peace, dwelling safety in their land - in comparison to what the Jews suffered in the nations leading up to the return, and subsequent Arab/Israeli wars. Ezekiel 38:8 is the pre-Gog/Magog condition like it is now
Where a substantial number of Jews have returned and Israel become a nation again. Ezekiel 39:28 is the post Gog/Magog and the Matthew 24:31 condition.

28. Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Then the millenium period begins.

You are quote Isaiah 2. I agree that Isaiah 2 has to be after Jesus has returned. But Isaiah 2 is not Ezekiel 38:8.

Isaiah 2 would be in Ezekiel 39: 21-29, following the Armageddon feast in Ezekiel 39:17-20.

The sequence is...

1. Ezekiel 38- Ezekiel 39:16 - Gog/Magog
2. Then 7 years of Daniel 9:27
3. Then Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20
4. Then the 1000 year reign of Jesus Ezekiel 39:21-29
5. Then Satan's last great deception of the nations, drawing the Gog and Magog nations with him.
6. Destroyed by fire to consume them, and Satan and his rebellious angels held in captivity cast into the lake of fire.
7. Then resurrection of the dead, and the destruction of this present earth and heaven, with death and hell cast into the lake of fire.
8. Followed immediately by the great white throne judgment

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I guess we'll see, won't we?

keras said:

I agree with this sequence. Except Satan is only chained up not cast into the LoF until the end of the Mill.

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Yes, I just didn't note it in the sequence. But here it is...

1. Ezekiel 38- Ezekiel 39:16 - Gog/Magog
2. Then 7 years of Daniel 9:27
3. Then Armageddon, Ezekiel 39:17-20
4. Then the 1000 year reign of Jesus Ezekiel 39:21-29 (Satan bound in chains in the bottomless pit).
5. Then released, Satan's last great deception of the nations, drawing the Gog and Magog nations with him.
6. Destroyed by fire to consume them, and Satan and his rebellious angels held in captivity cast into the lake of fire.
7. Then resurrection of the dead, and the destruction of this present earth and heaven, with death and hell cast into the lake of fire.
8. Followed immediately by the great white throne judgment

I think the above is a pretty good framework for an overall view.

keras said:

Phew! Rather much to reply to here.
I do not believe in long Tribulation. The next event, the Sixth Seal will be great tribulation for the whole world, a devastation of the Middle East, Zephaniah 2:4-5, Ezekiel 30:1-5 and a disaster for the rest of the world. It will last only one Day.
The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, culminating with Armageddon and the Return, lasts 3.5 years.

The attack by a huge army from the North against the new nation that will live in all of the holy Land, will happen before the last 7 years. That nation will have no army or defenses because they will wholly trust in the Lord for their protection. He will destroy Gog/Magog in order to make Himself known, Ezekiel 38:23 and to display His glory, Ezekiel 39:21 These verses totally refute any notion that the G/M war is at the end of the Mill. That attack is just a type of the G/M attack. At the first one, the bodies are buried, at the last one they are instantly cremated.
Then, because Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, Matthew 21:43, is victorious over G/M, the leader of the One World Govt will come to them and negotiate a 7 year peace treaty with them.

Postview, You quoted Zechariah 14:1-4. Be aware this is talking about 2 different events. Verses 1-2 describe the conquest of Beulah by the Anti-Christ leader of the OWG, when he does the Abomination in the Temple. We know this happens 3.5 years before the Return of Jesus. Verse 3: THEN, the Lord will go out .....His feet will stand on the Mt of Olives..... Acts 1:11 Verses 1-2 must happen before verse 3.....
Combining the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls doesn't make any sense at all, they are all different events at different times, in the sequence as given.
Your rapture to heaven belief colors your thinking, but 'everyone' in the Sixth Seal event means just that. We will ALL be tested by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:13, 1 Peter 4:12

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Keras said: Your rapture to heaven belief colors your thinking, You have never heard me say anything about a rapture to heaven. but 'everyone' in the Sixth Seal event means just that. We will ALL be tested by fire.
Rev 6:16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb: So you believe the redeemed blood bought church will be hiding in caves saying the things of verse 16. My brother, that makes no sense.

Postvieww said:

So you believe the redeemed blood bought church will be hiding in caves saying the things of verse 16. My brother, that makes no sense.

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No, what we Christians must do as fire comes down from the sky, as earthquakes shake the ground, as terrible storms blast away buildings, as massive tsunamis strike, is clearly told to us: Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts of the Apostles 2:21

Douggg said:

I think the above is a pretty good framework for an overall view.

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So you think the G/M attack is the next prophesied event? What about Psalms 83:1-18 and where do you place Micah 4:11-12, Jeremiah 49:34-37?

keras said:

No, what we Christians must do as fire comes down from the sky, as earthquakes shake the ground, as terrible storms blast away buildings, as massive tsunamis strike, is clearly told to us: Call upon the Name of the Lord and you will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts of the Apostles 2:21

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Do you believe you can survive the Tribulation?

Luke17:37 said:

Do you believe you can survive the Tribulation?

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Yes. Isaiah 51:4-8
I and my family will be living in the holy Land by then. Zechariah 8:8-10, Psalms 68:7-10, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
I will not be one of the 'many' who agree with a 7year peace treaty with the Anti-Christ. Daniel 9:27
I will not violate the Covenant. Daniel 11:32
I will go into exile when the AC breaks the treaty at the mid-point. Zechariah 14:1-2
That exile is described in Revelation 12:6 & 13-16
After 1260 days, the G.T. will be over and Jesus will Return. Revelation 19:11-21
Then He will gather all His people to Him. Matthew 24:31
We will then live reasonably normal lives, but I do expect to reach 100. Isaiah 65:20
At the end of the 1000 years, I will be judged on the record of my deeds. Revelation 20:13
If my name is found in the Book of Life, I will receive eternal life. Malachi 3:16-17

keras said:

Yes. Isaiah 51:4-8
I and my family will be living in the holy Land by then. Zechariah 8:8-10, Psalms 68:7-10, 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10
I will not be one of the 'many' who agree with a 7year peace treaty with the Anti-Christ. Daniel 9:27
I will not violate the Covenant. Daniel 11:32
I will go into exile when the AC breaks the treaty at the mid-point. Zechariah 14:1-2
That exile is described in Revelation 12:6 & 13-16
After 1260 days, the G.T. will be over and Jesus will Return. Revelation 19:11-21
Then He will gather all His people to Him. Matthew 24:31
We will then live reasonably normal lives, but I do expect to reach 100. Isaiah 65:20
At the end of the 1000 years, I will be judged on the record of my deeds. Revelation 20:13
If my name is found in the Book of Life, I will receive eternal life. Malachi 3:16-17

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Okay, that's what I thought.

For you sake, sir, if you are wrong and I am right, please stick with Jesus. Be willing to be beheaded if it comes down to that. It would be tragic if you lived nearly a hundred years and fell away near the very end because you weren't prepared to endure that kind of suffering.

Luke17:37 said:

For you sake, sir, if you are wrong and I am right, please stick with Jesus. Be willing to be beheaded if it comes down to that. It would be tragic if you lived nearly a hundred years and fell away near the very end because you weren't prepared to endure that kind of suffering.

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Where did I say I stopped sticking with Jesus?
Where are you going to be during the G.T.?
Please provide scriptures proving I am wrong and your scenario.

keras said:

Where did I say I stopped sticking with Jesus?
Where are you going to be during the G.T.?
Please provide scriptures proving I am wrong and your scenario.

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You didn't say that. I'm just saying, if in the future life shows that you're wrong about the peace (Beulah after sixth seal, and your theory that you can actually survive the Tribulation in Israel), please don't be mad at God... please be willing to give up your life if it's demanded of you, in order to save your life eternally.

Luke 9:23-26
23 Then He said to them all, “If anyone desires to come after Me, let him deny himself, and take up his cross daily, and follow Me. 24 For whoever desires to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake will save it. 25 For what profit is it to a man if he gains the whole world, and is himself destroyed or lost? 26 For whoever is ashamed of Me and My words, of him the Son of Man will be ashamed when He comes in His own glory, and in His Father’s, and of the holy angels.

Luke 17:33
33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it.

I see no peace until Jesus returns. In the Tribulation, the only provision I see to survive as a Christian entering the Tribulation is to be one of the 144,000 Jewish believers in Jesus who God seals to protect them from the plagues. By the fifth trumpet, everyone receives the plagues (in this case, the sting like the scorpion that lasts five months) except those who are sealed (the 144,000). I don't expect Christians to get this, so I think we'll all be dead by that point. I'm not Jewish as far as I know (I would only be a tiny bit if I am... and that's not known at all), so I have no confidence of being one of the 144,000. As I said, I expect to be beheaded in the Tribulation, unless God takes me some other way first.

You and I know there's no point in us continuing to discuss verses back and forth. I don't see any evidence for peace to Israel in the sixth seal. I think the sixth seal is just exactly what it says and nothing more.

The Bible doesn't say the trumpets and bowls overlap (first trumpet and bowl go simultaneously, second trumpet and bowl simultaneously... seventh trumpet and bowl simultaneously), but it makes the most sense to me in light of all the Scriptures, including Matthew 13 that deals with the wicked before the righteous (not Jesus return and the resurrection and gathering at the seventh trumpet followed by seven bowls of wrath on the wicked). I think Joshua 6 (the first battle fought in the land of Israel according to the Divine Commander's battle plans) may reflect the battle plans of Jesus at the end. Six days once around Jericho and on the seventh day, seven times around. So my theory is that the seals are each a year, and the seventh seal, which is composed of the seven trumpets (the opened scroll, essentially) is the last year. And I don't see a problem with the trumpets and bowls being two views of the same time. I can see a potential relationship between them. The trumpets, in my opinion, are the universal view and the bowls are the view of the beast's kingdom--especially those who have taken his mark.

Good day, Keras. I wish you the best.

keras said:

So you think the G/M attack is the next prophesied event? What about Psalms 83:1-18 and where do you place Micah 4:11-12, Jeremiah 49:34-37?

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I think that the next big event could be either (1) the Psalms 83 war or (2) the EU going to its final form of a ten leader federal government with the little horn over them.

Whether the Psalms 83 nations are part of Gog/Magog or precede it - is questionable in my point of view. We'll have to see on that one.

Nonetheless, what has to happen before Gog/Magog in the end times scenario imo is that the EU has to have that final form of government and the little horn in place. The formation of a ten leader form of government for the EU is pretty much going to validate my point of view for the rest of the end times scenario - it's that big.

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I am fairly certain that Gog/Magog, for whatever year it takes place, will be a late summer, early fall event - because 7 years following, that being the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 would put Jesus's Return in line with the fall feasts. Which the logic is since at his first advent, the major events coincided with the spring feasts... therefore the Second Coming will be in accordance with the fall feasts.

Also the for 7 years confirmation (of the Mt. Sinai covenant) event to be done by the Antichrist, in accordance with Moses' law in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, is a fall feast day of tabernacles event in that text. So the 7 years would start in the fall and end in the fall.

Douggg said:

I think that the next big event could be either (1) the Psalms 83 war or (2) the EU going to its final form of a ten leader federal government with the little horn over them.

Whether the Psalms 83 nations are part of Gog/Magog or precede it - is questionable in my point of view. We'll have to see on that one.

Nonetheless, what has to happen before Gog/Magog in the end times scenario imo is that the EU has to have that final form of government and the little horn in place. The formation of a ten leader form of government for the EU is pretty much going to validate my point of view for the rest of the end times scenario - it's that big.

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I am fairly certain that Gog/Magog, for whatever year it takes place, will be a late summer, early fall event - because 7 years following, that being the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 would put Jesus's Return in line with the fall feasts. Which the logic is since at his first advent, the major events coincided with the spring feasts... therefore the Second Coming will be in accordance with the fall feasts.

Also the for 7 years confirmation (of the Mt. Sinai covenant) event to be done by the Antichrist, in accordance with Moses' law in Deuteronomy 31:9-13, is a fall feast day of tabernacles event in that text. So the 7 years would start in the fall and end in the fall.

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Douggg said: I am fairly certain that Gog/Magog, for whatever year it takes place, will be a late summer, early fall event - because 7 years following, that being the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 would put Jesus's Return in line with the fall feasts. Which the logic is since at his first advent, the major events coincided with the spring feasts... therefore the Second Coming will be in accordance with the fall feasts.
I do not disagree with your statements I underlined, but would that mean you do not believe Jesus can come at any moment?

Postvieww said:

Douggg said: I am fairly certain that Gog/Magog, for whatever year it takes place, will be a late summer, early fall event - because 7 years following, that being the 7 years of Daniel 9:27 would put Jesus's Return in line with the fall feasts. Which the logic is since at his first advent, the major events coincided with the spring feasts... therefore the Second Coming will be in accordance with the fall feasts.
I do not disagree with your statements I underlined, but would that mean you do not believe Jesus can come at any moment?

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I view the Second Coming as Jesus's return to this earth in Revelation 19. Jesus's coming for the 1thessalonians 4:15-18 resurrection and rapture, as not the same - which that event redemption of the body can happen at anytime between now and when it actually does.