Futurist Only A Scriptural Precedent

keras said:

Read 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 and see how the Lord will send fire from heaven, a CME sunstrike, killing His enemies and then He reveals His glory amongst His own. We see Him again on Mt Zion, Revelation 14:1
Isaiah 30:25-28, Malachi 4:1-3

Postveiw, you can mess with given sequence of Revelation and think those who say: the great Day of the wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb has come, are lying, but such thinking only leads to confusion and you are just further in the dark.

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You made a typo, I am not Postview.

That aside, Keras, I don't think you understood the point of my post. You had written that only believers will see Jesus in the sixth seal event. But the text of Revelation 6 says differently. Can't you see that in these verses?

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

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When you write things like..."are lying, but such thinking only leads to confusion and you are just further in the dark"

Keras, those type of statements don't make you right and others wrong. All it does is set a negative tone for discussion.

keras said:

Read 2 Thessalonians 1:6-10 and see how the Lord will send fire from heaven, a CME sunstrike, killing His enemies and then He reveals His glory amongst His own. We see Him again on Mt Zion, Revelation 14:1
Isaiah 30:25-28, Malachi 4:1-3

Postveiw, you can mess with given sequence of Revelation and think those who say: the great Day of the wrath of Almighty God and the Lamb has come, are lying, but such thinking only leads to confusion and you are just further in the dark.

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I do not think they are lying. I believe wrath is come is right there in the 6th seal just like it says. Remember I said the seals are an overview of most of the book of Revelation. I believe the 6th seal is the coming of the Lord. Do you believe they are confused when they say hide us from the face of Him? I believe the 6th seal is at the same time as the 7th trumpet and the vials. Seals , trumpets , and vials all end with the coming of the Lord and Armageddon. They don't all start at the same time but they all end at about the same time.There is much evidence to support this if one does not interpret it out of existence. The coming of the Lord is described at the 7th trumpet. Rev 11:15-19 wrath is come just like 6th seal. Rev 15:1 again the wrath described in the vials. The same wrath in all three. This book in not in complete chronological order. Overlapping events described more than once. If one is locked into the belief all is chronological there are many things that cannot be explained. I can make a case for it not being chronological just as others on the other side of this issue can. If you want to reasonably discuss some of those evidences for my position and yours we can do that. Just declaring I am wrong and you are right is pointless.

Douggg said:

I don't think you understood the point of my post. You had written that only believers will see Jesus in the sixth seal event. But the text of Revelation 6 says differently. Can't you see that in these verses?

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Jesus is not seen at the Sixth Seal. The text does say hide us from the face of God and the Lamb..... But in no way do we see them or their faces, this saying just means people want to avoid God seeing them.
The visible Return of Jesus comes years later.

Postvieww said:

I do not think they are lying. I believe wrath is come is right there in the 6th seal just like it says. Remember I said the seals are an overview of most of the book of Revelation. I believe the 6th seal is the coming of the Lord. Do you believe they are confused when they say hide us from the face of Him? I believe the 6th seal is at the same time as the 7th trumpet and the vials. Seals , trumpets , and vials all end with the coming of the Lord and Armageddon. They don't all start at the same time but they all end at about the same time.There is much evidence to support this if one does not interpret it out of existence. The coming of the Lord is described at the 7th trumpet. Rev 11:15-19 wrath is come just like 6th seal. Rev 15:1 again the wrath described in the vials. The same wrath in all three. This book in not in complete chronological order. Overlapping events described more than once. If one is locked into the belief all is chronological there are many things that cannot be explained. I can make a case for it not being chronological just as others on the other side of this issue can. If you want to reasonably discuss some of those evidences for my position and yours we can do that. Just declaring I am wrong and you are right is pointless.

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Sorry for sounding so positive in my beliefs, I must be more circumspect in future.

Who is it that says: hide us from the Face.....? Every person on earth, that's who. The list includes everyone, no exceptions. Are they all mistaken? I for one, will know the truth of what is happening.
Luke 21:35 confirms that the Day will come upon every living person on earth. Zephaniah 3:8

I reject your idea of the Sixth Seal being an overview and the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls happening simultaneously requires a lot of imagination. How can the Trumpets begin before all the Seven Seals are opened and the Scroll unrolled?
Placing all the wrath of the Lord at the Return of Jesus simply doesn't fit with the 3 descriptions of His Return. Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:29-31, Zechariah 14:3-21
Why would the Lord destroy the earth at His Return? No, the worldwide devastation will happen next and it will set the scene for the establishment of an OWG, but all true believers; all who stood strong in their faith during that terrible Day, will be gathered and will go to live in all of the holy Land. Great will be the Day! Psalms 50:1-6

keras said:

Jesus is not seen at the Sixth Seal. The text does say hide us from the face of God and the Lamb..... But in no way do we see them or their faces, this saying just means people want to avoid God seeing them.
The visible Return of Jesus comes years later.

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The cosmos parts, rolled away like a scroll, so what are they going to see that makes them want to hide in caves, and want the mountains to fall on them?

Matthew 24:
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

The only thing I can think of is that they see Jesus before the throne of God as the sign of the Son of man in heaven. OR maybe they will see a cross.

Either way, the events described in Matthew 24:29-30, eliminates your view that there are years between the removal of the cosmos and Jesus's return down to earth.

Douggg said:

The problem with that possibility is that it takes away the element of not knowing the day nor hour (figurative imo).

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I'm convinced this and similar passages are used incorrectly many times. In context the below passage is not talking about the day the Lord returns it is talking about the day heaven and earth will pass away.

Matt 24:34 Verily I say unto you, This generation shall not pass, till all these things be fulfilled.

35 Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.

36 But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. The passage below that is talking about the Lord's return only says we will not know the hour.

Matt 24:42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come. Again only the hour is mentioned below. Matt 24:44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh. The passage below is an evil servant who is not looking for the return of the Lord.; Matt 24:50 The lord of that servant shall come in a day when he looketh not for him, and in an hour that he is not aware of,


All I am saying here is we can know more about the timing of the return of Christ than many would lead us to believe. As you know my posttrib view does not include a Jesus can come any moment nothing has to happen scenerio. 2 Thess 2 refutes that , falling away first and the man of sin revealed. I understand you disagree holding to the pretrib view. Much more on this topic but I'm working from a cell phone not as efficient.

Douggg said:

The cosmos parts, rolled away like a scroll, so what are they going to see that makes them want to hide in caves, and want the mountains to fall on them?

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When it is understood what it is that the Lord will use on His Day of wrath and how He can direct a massive CME sunstrike to do exactly what He wants to achieve, then you will know all the graphic prophesies about that Day, can and will be literally fulfilled.
I suggest you research Coronal Mass Ejections: spaceweather.com and ecology.com/earths greatest threat - the sun.....
are very interesting sites.
The CME the Lord will instigate will:
1/ send out a flash 7 times brighter that normal sunshine. Isaiah 30:26, Ezekiel 21:10
2/ Then darken the sun, as the exploded mass approaches the earth. Amos 5:20, Zephaniah 1:15 [it will take 24 hours for the mass of superheated hydrogen plasma to reach earth]
3/ Make the moon glow bright red. Acts 1:20
4/ Cause earthquakes and volcanoes by the microwave effect. Amos 8:8-9, Jeremiah 4:24
5/ Push aside the magnetosphere and the atmosphere. Isaiah 34:4
5/ Make a great noise. Jeremiah 25:30-31, Isaiah 29:6
6/ Move the earth out of her place. Isaiah 13;13
7/ Strike the earth with fire and extreme heat. 2 Peter 3:7, Isaiah 66:15, Psalms 21:9
8/ Burn the entire Middle East region. Amos 1:1-14, Amos 2:1-5, Joel 1:19-20, Isaiah 10:18-19
9/ Kill millions. Psalms 37:20, Isaiah 63:1-6, Ezekiel 32:6, Jeremiah 25:33
10/ Leave the holy Land depopulated. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 4:7 & 26, Zephaniah 1:18
11/ Only a remnant will remain in Jerusalem. Isaiah 31:5, Isaiah 29:4 But most of the rest of the world will take shelter, as described, and will survive.
12/ Will last for just one Day. Isaiah 9:14, Zechariah 3:9
13/ How to survive it? All who call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

keras said:

When it is understood what it is that the Lord will use on His Day of wrath and how He can direct a massive CME sunstrike to do exactly what He wants to achieve, then you will know all the graphic prophesies about that Day, can and will be literally fulfilled.
I suggest you research Coronal Mass Ejections: spaceweather.com and ecology.com/earths greatest threat - the sun.....
are very interesting sites.
The CME the Lord will instigate will:
1/ send out a flash 7 times brighter that normal sunshine. Isaiah 30:26, Ezekiel 21:10
2/ Then darken the sun, as the exploded mass approaches the earth. Amos 5:20, Zephaniah 1:15 [it will take 24 hours for the mass of superheated hydrogen plasma to reach earth]
3/ Make the moon glow bright red. Acts 1:20
4/ Cause earthquakes and volcanoes by the microwave effect. Amos 8:8-9, Jeremiah 4:24
5/ Push aside the magnetosphere and the atmosphere. Isaiah 34:4
5/ Make a great noise. Jeremiah 25:30-31, Isaiah 29:6
6/ Move the earth out of her place. Isaiah 13;13
7/ Strike the earth with fire and extreme heat. 2 Peter 3:7, Isaiah 66:15, Psalms 21:9
8/ Burn the entire Middle East region. Amos 1:1-14, Amos 2:1-5, Joel 1:19-20, Isaiah 10:18-19
9/ Kill millions. Psalms 37:20, Isaiah 63:1-6, Ezekiel 32:6, Jeremiah 25:33
10/ Leave the holy Land depopulated. Ezekiel 30:1-5, Jeremiah 4:7 & 26, Zephaniah 1:18
11/ Only a remnant will remain in Jerusalem. Isaiah 31:5, Isaiah 29:4 But most of the rest of the world will take shelter, as described, and will survive.
12/ Will last for just one Day. Isaiah 9:14, Zechariah 3:9
13/ How to survive it? All who call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved. Joel 2:32, Acts 2:21

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Keras, God is not bound by science. In Revelation 16, one of the plagues is that the heat from the sun scorches men. It doesn't say how God makes that happens.

God created everything there is from nothing, so he is not obligated to use a CME.

There is a a timeframe for the end times involving 7 years. That's the first thing that a person has to build an end times scenario on. And then there are specifics that they will be saying peace and safety when sudden destruction falls on the them. And it will be as in the days of Noah, business as usual until the flood came.

So there is not going to be any global disaster prior to Gog/Magog taking place. And the plague involving the sun's heat is given in Revelation 16:8-9, the fourth seal.

Furthermore, the great tribulation, which if not limited all flesh would perish, doesn't begin until the Abomination of Desolation is placed in the temple.

keras said:

Sorry for sounding so positive in my beliefs, I must be more circumspect in future.

Who is it that says: hide us from the Face.....? Every person on earth, that's who. The list includes everyone, no exceptions. Are they all mistaken? I for one, will know the truth of what is happening.
Luke 21:35 confirms that the Day will come upon every living person on earth. Zephaniah 3:8

I reject your idea of the Sixth Seal being an overview and the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls happening simultaneously requires a lot of imagination. How can the Trumpets begin before all the Seven Seals are opened and the Scroll unrolled?
Placing all the wrath of the Lord at the Return of Jesus simply doesn't fit with the 3 descriptions of His Return. Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:29-31, Zechariah 14:3-21
Why would the Lord destroy the earth at His Return? No, the worldwide devastation will happen next and it will set the scene for the establishment of an OWG, but all true believers; all who stood strong in their faith during that terrible Day, will be gathered and will go to live in all of the holy Land. Great will be the Day! Psalms 50:1-6

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Rev 6:15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

I see no conflict here. When Christ returns we will be gathered unto Him. The above verses describe everyone else. You ask"How can the Trumpets begin before all the Seven Seals are opened and the Scroll unrolled?" You are beginning with the presumption everything is described in perfect chronological order. You and many others reject what I'm saying but a lot reject what you are saying as well. Look at it this way if the seals are an overview or the big picture. The trumpets happen within the seals but are just described in living color later in Revelation. I will try to give examples of why I believe this is so from the text. One example I already mentioned is the wrath is shown in the 6 th seal mentioned again at the 7th trumpet and is described in detail in the vials. There are allusions or direct references to the return of Christ in the 6th seal "the face of him" at the 7th trumpet the mystery is finished Christ takes the kingdoms dead are judged. I believe chapter 14 refers to His coming as well as chapter 19. Rev 14:14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs. What is Rev 14 if not another description of the coming of the Lord, the gathering and the battle of Armageddon ? These are just a few reasons I believe there are overlapping events in Revelation. I believe the 7th trumpet is the resurrection or rapture if you like that term. I been over this John's God given order with my friend and brother Lamad many times. I believe John wrote it down just as it was revealed to him not as everything would transpire in order. The vials are the wrath of God that is what the scripture says. They are the detailed description of the wrath mentioned in
chapter 6. Rev 16:12 And the sixth angel poured out his vial upon the great river Euphrates; and the water thereof was dried up, that the way of the kings of the east might be prepared.
13 And I saw three unclean spirits like frogs come out of the mouth of the dragon, and out of the mouth of the beast, and out of the mouth of the false prophet.

14 For they are the spirits of devils, working miracles, which go forth unto the kings of the earth and of the whole world, to gather them to the battle of that great day of God Almighty.

15 Behold, I come as a thief. Blessed is he that watcheth, and keepeth his garments, lest he walk naked, and they see his shame.

16 And he gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon. Here we have a mention of coming as a thief and Armageddon.

Rev 9:4 Saying to the sixth angel which had the trumpet, Loose the four angels which are bound in the great river Euphrates.
15 And the four angels were loosed, which were prepared for an hour, and a day, and a month, and a year, for to slay the third part of men.

16 And the number of the army of the horsemen were two hundred thousand thousand: and I heard the number of them. Here we have preparation for Armageddon. We've already agreed some of the seals are open, I believe there is evidence some of the trumpets have blown as well. Topic for Another time , working from a cell phone us not ideal but it's all I have right now .

Douggg said:

Keras, God is not bound by science. In Revelation 16, one of the plagues is that the heat from the sun scorches men. It doesn't say how God makes that happens.

God created everything there is from nothing, so he is not obligated to use a CME.

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I personally believe in the 4th trumpet/bowl, that's when the major sun action happens. (I believe the trumpets and bowls are are concurrent, not consecutive.) I think a large solar flare could cause both the intense heat (4th seal) and the darkness that affects 1/3 of the day and 1/3 of the night (4th trumpet). However, there's obviously cosmic disturbances in the sixth seal as well. I think God will probably use science but He doesn't have to.

Douggg said:

There is a a timeframe for the end times involving 7 years. That's the first thing that a person has to build an end times scenario on.

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I agree with you, Doug, based on Daniel 9. Keras believes in a much longer Tribulation, a theory I've never heard of before and I'm not sure where he gets.

Douggg said:

And then there are specifics that they will be saying peace and safety when sudden destruction falls on the them. And it will be as in the days of Noah, business as usual until the flood came.

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This parable (Matthew 24 and Luke 17) doesn't mean the world will be at peace, but that when Jesus comes, He will destroy the wicked (the taken = the destroyed). The wicked won't understand the times or know God, or else they would repent and serve Him. Matthew 24 and Revelation indicate that the Tribulation is a hard time for everyone... not business as usual. By the sixth seal, the men of earth know about the Father and the Lamb (probably through the testimony of the Christians they have been murdering):

Revelation 6:16-17
16 and said to the mountains and rocks, “Fall on us and hide us from the face of Him who sits on the throne and from the wrath of the Lamb! 17 For the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?”

Satan and the other demons know who God is and that doesn't result in their worshipping Him. It will be the same with the rebellious men on the earth. They maybe won't believe their rebellion will certainly result in their destruction and eternal torment, though. Perhaps they believe there's a way of escape. And since there are false returns of christ, maybe that trips them up and they believe they are safe.

Islamic eschatology lines up with Biblical eschatology if the beast of the sea/Antichrist = Mahdi and the beast of the earth/false prophet = Isa. Isa is Islam's Jesus... a Jesus who isn't divine, didn't die for sins, and didn't rise from the dead. Isa is supposed to help the Mahdi (be subservient, probably enforcing worship of the Mahdi and the mark, whatever that is) and correct the Christians for their "bad theology." Isa eventually fights the Antichrist and wins (truth: false prophet tries to fight the real Jesus and loses... being thrown alive into the Lake of Fire). I think it an Islamic Antichrist system completely makes sense, especially considering the times.

Douggg said:

So there is not going to be any global disaster prior to Gog/Magog taking place.

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Gog/Magog is not supposed to take place until after the thousand year reign of Jesus.

Revelation 20:7
Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

There isn't anything in Ezekiel 38 and 39 which conflict with a the timeline presented in Revelation 20 - I believe they are the same event.

Gog/Magog happens when Israel is at peace, and I don't believe there's any hope of that until Jesus returns (Isaiah 26:12, 15, 20-21; Isaiah 27:1, 12-13).

Douggg said:

And the plague involving the sun's heat is given in Revelation 16:8-9, the fourth seal.

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Yes.

Douggg said:

Furthermore, the great tribulation, which if not limited all flesh would perish, doesn't begin until the Abomination of Desolation is placed in the temple.

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The Abomination is roughly halfway through the seven year Tribulation... 3 and a half years in, or 42 months. So is the beast's main dominion: "And he was given a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies, and he was given authority to continue for forty-two months" (Revelation 13:5).

Daniel 9:27
...But in the middle of the week
He shall bring an end to sacrifice and offering.
And on the wing of abominations shall be one who makes desolate...

Daniel's weeks in this prophecy are understood to be periods of seven years. This timeline is supported by Messiah being cut off after 69 weeks (69 x 7 weeks). The time is about the Jewish people. We're in the times of the Gentiles now, where Jerusalem is still trampled by Gentiles. There are Jews coming to Christ today, but at a much smaller remnant than it will be at the end (compare Zechariah 13:8-9, Romans 11:25-27)... only about 1% of Jews claim Jesus as their Messiah, though the percentage has been growing... which may in itself indicate a sign of the times.

See also Hosea 5:14-6:3.

Luke17:37 said:

Gog/Magog is not supposed to take place until after the thousand year reign of Jesus.

Revelation 20:7
Now when the thousand years have expired, Satan will be released from his prison 8 and will go out to deceive the nations which are in the four corners of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle, whose number is as the sand of the sea. 9 They went up on the breadth of the earth and surrounded the camp of the saints and the beloved city. And fire came down from God out of heaven and devoured them.

There isn't anything in Ezekiel 38 and 39 which conflict with a the timeline presented in Revelation 20 - I believe they are the same event.

Gog/Magog happens when Israel is at peace, and I don't believe there's any hope of that until Jesus returns (Isaiah 26:12, 15, 20-21; Isaiah 27:1, 12-13).

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Luke 17:37,

The one argument for Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38/39 equating to Revelation 20, is the part about residing in unwalled villages. That's it.

The rest is all pre-seventh week and can't be Revelation 20. The 7 years following Ezekiel 39 God's judgment on Gog's army is the seventh week. Then in Ezekiel 39:17-20, at the end of the seventh week is the Armageddon feast. Which the Armageddon feast is 1000 years before Revelation 20 Gog/Magog.

Compare:

Ezekiel 39:
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

With....

Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

Douggg said:

Luke 17:37,

The one argument for Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38/39 equating to Revelation 20, is the part about residing in unwalled villages. That's it.

The rest is all pre-seventh week and can't be Revelation 20. The 7 years following Ezekiel 39 God's judgment on Gog's army is the seventh week. Then in Ezekiel 39:17-20, at the end of the seventh week is the Armageddon feast. Which the Armageddon feast is 1000 years before Revelation 20 Gog/Magog.

Compare:

Ezekiel 39:
17 And, thou son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; Speak unto every feathered fowl, and to every beast of the field, Assemble yourselves, and come; gather yourselves on every side to my sacrifice that I do sacrifice for you, even a great sacrifice upon the mountains of Israel, that ye may eat flesh, and drink blood.

18 Ye shall eat the flesh of the mighty, and drink the blood of the princes of the earth, of rams, of lambs, and of goats, of bullocks, all of them fatlings of Bashan.

19 And ye shall eat fat till ye be full, and drink blood till ye be drunken, of my sacrifice which I have sacrificed for you.

20 Thus ye shall be filled at my table with horses and chariots, with mighty men, and with all men of war, saith the Lord GOD.

With....

Revelation 19:
17 And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;

18 That ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.

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Just because the vultures eat the slain after Armageddon doesn't mean they can't eat the slain after Gog/Magog. Vultures are designed to feed on carcasses (at least, post-curse). There's no conflict between Ezekiel 38/39 and Revelation 20. There's no reason to believe in two Gog/Magogs. Ezekiel doesn't give exact timing, but Revelation makes it clear.

Keras said: " Placing all the wrath of the Lord at the Return of Jesus simply doesn't fit with the 3 descriptions of His Return. Revelation 19:11-21, Matthew 24:29-31, Zechariah 14:3-21
Why would the Lord destroythe earth at His Return? No,the worldwide devastation willhappen next and it will set thescene for the establishment ofan OWG, but all true believers;all who stood strong in theirfaith during that terrible Day,will be gathered and will go tolive in all of the holy Land.Great will be the Day! Psalms 50:1-6. "
Why not? Rev 19:15 And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations: and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
Wrath of God is in this verse.
Zechariah 14King James Version (KJV)
14 Behold, the day of the Lordcometh, and thy spoil shall be divided in the midst of thee.

2 For I will gather all nations against Jerusalem to battle; and the city shall be taken, and the houses rifled, and the women ravished; and half of the city shall go forth into captivity, and the residue of the people shall not be cut off from the city.

3 Then shall the Lord go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.

4 And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.

What about this passage sounds like s picnic for those opposed to Christ?

Matt 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

This passage simply does not describe the wrath against unbelievers. What implies there is none at the time of His coming? What about these passages says they are not the same event? Matt 24:29 describes the same event as the 6th seal. Rev 6:12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

17 For the great day of his wrath is come; and who shall be able to stand?

What in Rev 6 says the earth is "destroyed"? Chaos yes earth destroyed no. Rev 16:20 And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found. Same event as 6th seal, Rev 6:14. 7th vial wrath just like described in Rev 6. How many times can islands and mountains be moved? Once ,it is the same event. It all lines up and makes sense if you let it

Luke17:37 said:

Just because the vultures eat the slain after Armageddon doesn't mean they can't eat the slain after Gog/Magog. Vultures are designed to feed on carcasses (at least, post-curse). There's no conflict between Ezekiel 38/39 and Revelation 20. There's no reason to believe in two Gog/Magogs. Ezekiel doesn't give exact timing, but Revelation makes it clear.

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But there is no feast on the destroyed attackers of any kind in Revelation 20. No follow up of any kind.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
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Following Jesus's return in Matthew 24:31 and the beginning of the 1000 years...

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In Ezekiel 39:

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

The gathering of the elect at Jesus's Return is the same as in Ezekiel 39:27-28. Which puts Ezekiel 39: 17-20 as the Armageddon feast. Seven years before that is the feast on Gog's army in Ezekiel 39:4

Douggg said:

But there is no feast on the destroyed attackers of any kind in Revelation 20. No follow up of any kind.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.

10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.
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Following Jesus's return in Matthew 24:31 and the beginning of the 1000 years...

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

In Ezekiel 39:

27 When I have brought them again from the people, and gathered them out of their enemies' lands, and am sanctified in them in the sight of many nations;

28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

The gathering of the elect at Jesus's Return is the same as in Ezekiel 39:27-28. Which puts Ezekiel 39: 17-20 as the Armageddon feast. Seven years before that is the feast on Gog's army in Ezekiel 39:4

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There are no contradictions. Every passage doesn't have to say everything. There are four gospels with different details but only one crucifixion of Jesus and one resurrection on the third day.

Luke17:37 said:

There are no contradictions. Every passage doesn't have to say everything. There are four gospels with different details but only one crucifixion of Jesus and one resurrection on the third day.

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Revelation 20 doesn't say anything other than saying Gog and Magog. No contradictions? What you should be saying is there is no similarities other than the words Gog and Magog. And there are insurmountable reasons why Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38/39 is not the same.

There are not 7 years following Revelation 20. There is no feast on the dead bodies. There is no gathering of the elect. There is no the Lord setting his glory among the heathen. Jesus will have been here on earth at that time for 1000 years - and it is not until after the 1000 years that Israel knows him? Impossible.

Ezekiel 39:
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

Luke17:37 said:

There are no contradictions. Every passage doesn't have to say everything. There are four gospels with different details but only one crucifixion of Jesus and one resurrection on the third day.

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Amen, you are preaching my sermon.

Douggg said:

Revelation 20 doesn't say anything other than saying Gog and Magog. No contradictions? What you should be saying is there is no similarities other than the words Gog and Magog. And there are insurmountable reasons why Gog/Magog of Ezekiel 38/39 is not the same.

There are not 7 years following Revelation 20. There is no feast on the dead bodies. There is no gathering of the elect. There is no the Lord setting his glory among the heathen. Jesus will have been here on earth at that time for 1000 years - and it is not until after the 1000 years that Israel knows him? Impossible.

Ezekiel 39:
28 Then shall they know that I am the LORD their God, which caused them to be led into captivity among the heathen: but I have gathered them unto their own land, and have left none of them any more there.

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No; you have decided either that there's no literal millennial reign or that Gog/Magog has to be twice. You would not get that from reading it.

There's nothing stating that verse 28 isn't past tense. In fact, every verb is past tense. The formerly untested millennium people know Jesus more when they see Him destroy the peoples that come against them.

Ezekiel 38:8
8 After many days you will be visited. In the latter years you will come into the land of those brought back from the sword and gathered from many people on the mountains of Israel, which had long been desolate; they were brought out of the nations, and now all of them dwell safely.

This is consistent with the millennium - Jesus gathered them (Isaiah 27:12-13) and brought them peace (Isaiah 26:12, Isaiah 2). What compels you to think it's possible for Israel to live in peace, dwelling safely in their land without Jesus Himself doing it?

Ezekiel 38:10-12
10 ‘Thus says the Lord God: “On that day it shall come to pass that thoughts will arise in your mind, and you will make an evil plan: 11 You will say, ‘I will go up against a land of unwalled villages; I will go to a peaceful people, who dwell safely, all of them dwelling without walls, and having neither bars nor gates’—12 to take plunder and to take booty, to stretch out your hand against the waste places that are again inhabited, and against a people gathered from the nations, who have acquired livestock and goods, who dwell in the midst of the land.

Compare this with Isaiah 2:

The word that Isaiah the son of Amoz saw concerning Judah and Jerusalem.
2 Now it shall come to pass in the latter days
That the mountain of the Lord’s house
Shall be established on the top of the mountains,
And shall be exalted above the hills;
And all nations shall flow to it.
3 Many people shall come and say,
“Come, and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord,
To the house of the God of Jacob;
He will teach us His ways,
And we shall walk in His paths.”
For out of Zion shall go forth the law,
And the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
4 He shall judge between the nations,
And rebuke many people;
They shall beat their swords into plowshares,
And their spears into pruning hooks;
Nation shall not lift up sword against nation,
Neither shall they learn war anymore.

This is never going to happen before Jesus returns, and frankly, the Jewish people can't possibly be brought to Israel and gathered from the nations to live at peace without Jesus doing it. They are presently surrounded by lots of people/nations who have expressed the desire to annihilate them.

Perhaps part of this prophecy is a dual prophecy of Armageddon and the millennial Gog/Magog--I don't know. But the Gog/Magog after the millenium will show the formerly untested people (who didn't know war or Satan's interference) that God is strong to defend them when they trust in Him by faith. Probably most people living then won't have been alive to see Christ's glorious return and the ugliness of the pre-reign world before God heals everything (see Ezekiel 47-48).

Phew! Rather much to reply to here.
I do not believe in long Tribulation. The next event, the Sixth Seal will be great tribulation for the whole world, a devastation of the Middle East, Zephaniah 2:4-5, Ezekiel 30:1-5 and a disaster for the rest of the world. It will last only one Day.
The Great Tribulation of the 7 Trumpets and 7 Bowls, culminating with Armageddon and the Return, lasts 3.5 years.

The attack by a huge army from the North against the new nation that will live in all of the holy Land, will happen before the last 7 years. That nation will have no army or defenses because they will wholly trust in the Lord for their protection. He will destroy Gog/Magog in order to make Himself known, Ezekiel 38:23 and to display His glory, Ezekiel 39:21 These verses totally refute any notion that the G/M war is at the end of the Mill. That attack is just a type of the G/M attack. At the first one, the bodies are buried, at the last one they are instantly cremated.
Then, because Beulah, Isaiah 62:1-5, Matthew 21:43, is victorious over G/M, the leader of the One World Govt will come to them and negotiate a 7 year peace treaty with them.

Postview, You quoted Zechariah 14:1-4. Be aware this is talking about 2 different events. Verses 1-2 describe the conquest of Beulah by the Anti-Christ leader of the OWG, when he does the Abomination in the Temple. We know this happens 3.5 years before the Return of Jesus. Verse 3: THEN, the Lord will go out .....His feet will stand on the Mt of Olives..... Acts 1:11 Verses 1-2 must happen before verse 3.....
Combining the Seals, Trumpets and Bowls doesn't make any sense at all, they are all different events at different times, in the sequence as given.
Your rapture to heaven belief colors your thinking, but 'everyone' in the Sixth Seal event means just that. We will ALL be tested by fire. 1 Corinthians 3:13, 1 Peter 4:12

Luke17:37 said:

This is never going to happen before Jesus returns, and frankly, the Jewish people can't possibly be brought to Israel and gathered from the nations to live at peace without Jesus doing it. They are presently surrounded by lots of people/nations who have expressed the desire to annihilate them.

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But it will happen, because that is God's plan. Isaiah 14:26-27
You need to realize who are God's people. Galatians 4:29
The holy Land will be cleared and cleansed of every ungodly person at the Sixth Seal event. Jeremiah 12:14
A new nation will go to live there. Isaiah 62:1-5
They will select their own leaders: Jeremiah 30:21, Hosea 1:11
Only after all that is prophesied to happen takes place, will Jesus Return. Revelation 19:11