The lie of eternal security refuted once and for all.

iron2iron said:

Because the light came into the world and because men's hearts were evil they refuse to come to the light.

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I have always said there is no such thing as an atheist, because Jesus said behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man hear my voice and open the door I will come in. Jesus has knocked at the heart's door of every man that has ever lived, but most act like they don't hear, lest their deeds should be reproved. No one will come to God unless they want to come.

-57 said:

I was under the impression by approved you meant "saved".

I know my theology isn't 100% correct.

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No ones is 57, nice to see someone admit it.

iron2iron said:

The ten leapers were all healed

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What were they healed from...a case of the frogitus? LOL>...Sorry I am only poking fun..I knew you meant lepers and not leapers But I did get a chuckle out of that..


Back to the topic at hand.

If God persuades you...why would you not repent and believe? (obey)

iron2iron said:

Because the light came into the world and because men's hearts were evil they refuse to come to the light.

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That doesn't seem to make sense as a reply to my question. People are DEAD in their sin and trespases. Unless God causes us to be "born again" AKA regenerated, our hearts will remain evil.

iron2iron said:

I have always said there is no such thing as an atheist, because Jesus said behold I stand at the door and knock, if any man hear my voice and open the door I will come in. Jesus has knocked at the heart's door of every man that has ever lived, but most act like they don't hear, lest their deeds should be reproved. No one will come to God unless they want to come.

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Why would one person want to come to God and the other not come?
Is it their IQ?
Where they were born?
How persuading the preacher was?

after getting a lot of different answers to how we were once saved, I will highlight one of the points i'm trying to make.
How is it that there can be such a unified people about always being saved when know one can identify how one is saved.
Doing nothing from birth just isn't an answer. And those who identify that it is our faith that saves us, can't agree on what faith means. So I would submit that we should openly talk about the "once saved "beginning statement of the osas.understanding. If this cant be achieved, then talking about being always saved is a mutt point.

faither said:

after getting a lot of different answers to how we were once saved, I will highlight one of the points i'm trying to make.
How is it that there can be such a unified people about always being saved when know one can identify how one is saved.
Doing nothing from birth just isn't an answer. And those who identify that it is our faith that saves us, can't agree on what faith means. So I would submit that we should openly talk about the "once saved "beginning statement of the osas.understanding. If this cant be achieved, then talking about being always saved is a mutt point.

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When did this thread become your thread??

faither said:

Hey jerry, thanks for the reply. If I were to reply to your post it would probably derail this thread. This is a specific discussion about what we do or not do to be saved, fulfilling the "once saved Part of the osas equation. those are relevant questions, that probably deserve their own thread. If you start a thread i'll be sure to reply.

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Thanks for the response Faither...but I think the concept is very relevant to the discussion, both as part of the OS and AS portion.
You are OS because you go from belief to truth.
"I am the way, and THE TRUTH, and the life" (John 14:6)
Once you know the truth you cannot go back to belief, it is impossible. So once you know the truth, you always know the truth. That basically defines AS in a nutshell.
John also wrote later in 1 John 5:13 "so that you may KNOW that you have eternal life"

When Christ says "You will KNOW them by their fruits" we will KNOW them because we KNOW the truth. Anything short is a guessing game or knowledge of men and not of God.

In Matthew 9 why does Jesus say He healed the paralytic? It was not so that we can believe that He was given authority, but Jesus says in verse 6 "so that you may KNOW that the Son of Man has authority on earth"

Jesus again in Matthew 13:11 "To you it has been granted to KNOW the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven" It does not say that it has been granted so that we can believe. We have been shown the truth and that means we KNOW not we believe.

Luke 1:77 "To give to His people the knowledge of salvation By the forgiveness of their sins"

Paul uses the term knowledge often in reference to "Knowledge of God" or similar types of phrases.

So again I see my questions as very relevant to the idea of OSAS or eternal security. I would say that those that claim to have been saved, and then go out and commit sin and are still obedient to sin, only believed in God, never saw the truth, only wanted to believe they did based on their own knowledge and not that of Christ.

brotherjerry said:

So again I see my questions as very relevant to the idea of OSAS or eternal security. I would say that those that claim to have been saved, and then go out and commit sin and are still obedient to sin, only believed in God, never saw the truth, only wanted to believe they did based on their own knowledge and not that of Christ.

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Are you saying that if you are saved...you won't sin? If you find yourself sinning, you're not really saved?

Marvin Knox said:

We are justified before God and translated out of the kingdom of darkness and into the kingdom of light by faith in the finished work of Jesus Christ on our behalf.

The cultivation of our assurance of having been placed in that position (seated with Christ in the heavens) is an ongoing work of both the Holy Spirit and us as we yield to Him, study His word and continue to grow in our walk with Him (be "sanctified" or "renew our mind").

The faith exercised at the moment of salvation is never "sufficient". If that moment of faith was the only exercise of faith in our life here on earth we would find ourselves in a situation where most everything we did in our life following conversion was just so much wood, hay, and stubble when we stand before Him on that day.

Ruling with Him from Heaven is a constant, ongoing fight of faith. We have been translated into His kingdom - but only the strong among us make much use of that position.

To do that - we must study the Word to understand what our standing is at this present time. Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.

What you don't "know" won't help you much.

It is here, in this undermining of faith in His Word, where the people who teach against eternal security here in the forum will have much to answer for when they stand before the Judgment Seat of Christ.


"Let not many of you become teachers, my brethren, knowing that as such we will incur a stricter judgment." James 3:1

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Marvin I totally agree that once saved always saved, but Jesus told the Rich Young Ruler what he must do to get to Heaven, and He said go, sell, and give and you will have treasure in Heaven. Jesus told him "one" thing you lack. It was only one thing he needed to do, but he refused. He said that he had observed all Ten Commandments, but that wasn't his problem. God knows our hearts and Jesus looked at his heart and said, one thing you lack, do this and you will have treasure in Heaven. This statement also agrees with you that you can't lose your salvation, how could you have treasure in Heaven if your not going to Heaven? But, it was only one thing, and that one thing he did not want to do. That's usually what it is with most of us, "one thing".

This is the most respectful form I have ever seen you guys and gals are awesome, keep it up. God Bless, I'm going to work

I said this:
"We're saved by grace through faith in Christ. Biblical hope is confidence that we ARE saved. Not will be saved.

Acts 16:31 tells us how to be saved."

faither said:

Hi Fg2, would you share your understanding of Acts 16:31." Saved by Grace through Faith".

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Actually, that phrase is from Eph 2:8. It means that our salvation is by God's grace, which means it is totally undeserved or earned. And that salvation is through the action of our believing in Christ.

Acts 16:31 is Paul's answer to the jailer's question: "what MUST I DO to be saved?" The answer: believe and you will be saved.

We have nothing to do with the free Grace gifted to us, what about Faith? Is Faith something we must do to be saved in your understanding?

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Believe is what we must do to be saved, as Paul's answer plainly says.

Faith is a noun, which is "body of what we believe". Believe is the verb, which is placing our trust in Christ to save us.

Faith is a gift. God has gifted us with His very Word. But the action of believing God's Word is not a gift from God. No where in Scripture is our act of believing described as a gift. The gift is always a noun: salvation, faith, eternal life, justification.

-57 said:

I might add, we can't even believe unless we are given by God the faith to believe.

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What this actually means is that the gift that God gives is the "body of what to believe". The act of believing is never described as a gift from God.

If there is no "body of what to believe in", which is a noun, then there can't be an act to believe.

iow, there needs to be a "body of what to believe in" (noun) before there can be an action to believe (verb) in that noun.

Too many people mistakenly use 'faith' as a verb, as if God gifts the action of believing. He doesn't. He gifts His very Word, which is the "body of what we need to believe".

Rick Otto said:

Right. Ephesians 1:4 or thereabouts, describes God electing whom to save before creation.
Creation is planned beginning to end. God is not trying to deal with an accident.

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No, Eph 1:4 is not about who God elects, or chooses, to save. The "us" in v.4 is defined in 1:19. So, one can replace the "us" in v.4 with "those who believe" from v.19 and the verse not only makes sense, but is actually what God has elected in that verse.

iron2iron said: ↑
I think the problem is that we do not understand what faith is.

-57 said:

...or it has several nuisances.

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If one keeps in mind that the word 'faith' is a noun, and not a verb, it becomes easier to understand what it refers to.

It is the information that we must believe. That's what faith is. To have "faith" is to possess what we believe.

Faith is not the act of believing. A noun does not act as a verb.

iron2iron said:

Does any one understand what faith is, because it is not trusting or believing (mental consent).

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Correct. Those are verbs, and faith is a noun. So again, faith is the body of knowledge that God wants humans to believe or trust in.

-57 said:

What must we do? I would say in reality...nothing.

No one seeks God. It is God who calls us, draws (drags) us, gives us.
We don't accept Jesus...we receive Jesus.

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Well, the Bible disagrees. Paul's answer to the jailer was to "believe and you WILL BE SAVED". Believing is an action. And that is what we must do to be saved.

But Calvinists disagree. They think that "faith is a gift" is an action that God causes in us. Nope. No evidence at all from Scripture.

iron2iron said:

People use this word (faith) to describe everything other that what it is. People say my faith is Buddhist, or Muslim, or Christian. And the evangelical church does the same thing, like my faith is Baptist, or Catholic. This one word has lost it's original meaning.

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You just nailed it. "Faith" is a noun, the body of knowledge that is believed.

Marvin Knox said:

"Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. For by it the men of old gained approval." Hebrews 11:1-2

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Great answer, Marvin! Both assurance and conviction are nouns, not verbs. Faith is a noun.

I hope everyone agrees that neither assurance and conviction are verbs. These are things that we HAVE (noun). Not DO (verb).

Steeno7 said:

When did this thread become your thread??

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I really don't even know who started it. I came in a few days ago and started a convo with brian about osas.
He kind of left me hanging a little bit, but others joined in. I don't have a gift for translating my thoughts to others so they can understand me. I put that on me, always unintentionally rub people the wrong way. accept my apology, i'll step aside and find another topic to talk about.
jay