transubstantiation unsubstantiated substantially :P

Albion

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Bob, your treatment of the subject has wandered off the topic and also is confused about a number of these concepts.

For one thing, "Transubstantiation" is NOT about memorial vs sacrifice. It's about the bread and wine becoming Christ's body and blood in a literal as well as spiritual sense. That's independent of any idea of the Mass being a sacrifice.

What's more, the subject is not properly condensed into two alternatives: memorial vs transubstantiation or sacrifice. There are others, depending upon denomination.

And if we consider the issue of sacrifice, the Mass is controversial not just for being thought a sacrifice but on account of the church having claimed that it is THE sacrifice of the Cross. Other denominations accept that it is a sacrifice but not of Christ.

Finally, "memorial" isn't opposed to any of them, since if a person believes in Transubstantiation, or any other version of Real Presence, he automatically believes that it also is a memorial.
 
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bbbbbbb

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Bob, your treatment of the subject has wandered off the topic and also is confused about a number of these concepts.

For one thing, "Transubstantiation" is NOT about memorial vs sacrifice. It's about the bread and wine becoming Christ's body and blood in a literal as well as spiritual sense. That's independent of any idea of the Mass being a sacrifice.

What's more, the subject is not properly condensed into two alternatives: memorial vs transubstantiation or sacrifice. There are others, depending upon denomination.

And if we consider the issue of sacrifice, the Mass is controversial not just for being thought a sacrifice but on account of the church having claimed that it is THE sacrifice of the Cross. Other denominations accept that it is a sacrifice but not of Christ.

Finally, "memorial" isn't opposed to any of them, since if a person believes in Transubstantiation, or any other version of Real Presence, he automatically believes that it also is a memorial.

Quite true. I have yet to meet a Christian - Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Baptist, Zwinglian - who does not view communion as a commemoration, at the very least. To be sure, many see other aspects as well, but all see it as some Christ commanded His followers to do in memory of Him.
 
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Wgw

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The "Black Rubric", so-called because of the color of the ink, was slipped into the 1552 BCP without permission. It was corrected in the 1662 edition. It didn't have anything to do with Nestorianism in any case. ;)

It was excised from the BCP only to be reintroduced in the present BCP:
http://www.eskimo.com/~lhowell/bcp1662/communion/index.html

That more than anything is why I regard it as a great tragedy the refined and elegant 1928 Deposited Book was not adopted. The C of E could have had one of the most elegant liturgical systems in the world, alas.
 
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Wgw

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the focus of the Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 8:1 chapter as noted in that quote is that Christ is NOT still engaged in "sacrifice".

This is irrefutable.

Coming up with crypto-name-calling as a substitute for Bible detail - simply does not work.

Crypto-nominalism aside, the Orthodox agree with Hebrews, which is why our theology defines participation in the one historic Eucharist (anamnesis).
 
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BobRyan

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the focus of the Hebrews 10 and Hebrews 8:1 chapter as noted in that quote is that Christ is NOT still engaged in "sacrifice".

This is irrefutable.

Coming up with crypto-name-calling as a substitute for Bible detail - simply does not work.

Should have quote Hebrews - since by not quoting it - some apparently feel it is ambiguous.

Heb 10
4 For it is impossible for the blood of bulls and goats to take away sins. 5 Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says,
“Sacrifice and offering You have not desired,
But a body You have prepared for Me;
6 In whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have taken no pleasure.
7 “Then I said, ‘Behold, I have come
(In the scroll of the book it is written of Me)
To do Your will, O God.’”
8 After saying above, “Sacrifices and offerings and whole burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin You have not desired, nor have You taken pleasure in them” (which are offered according to the Law), 9 then He said, “Behold, I have come to do Your will.” He takes away the first in order to establish the second. 10 By this will we have been sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
11 Every priest stands daily ministering and offering time after time the same sacrifices, which can never take away sins; 12 but He, having offered one sacrifice for sins for all time, sat down at the right hand of God,

Notice -- offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

hint: all of those earthly priests -- Jewish. All of them still making sacrifices and offering them.
Christ by contrast - is seated - no longer making a sacrifice of any kind.


Heb 8
Now the main point in what has been said is this: we have such a high priest, who has taken His seat at the right hand of the throne of the Majesty in the heavens, 2 a minister in the sanctuary and in the true tabernacle, which the Lord pitched, not man. 3 For every high priest is appointed to offer both gifts and sacrifices; so it is necessary that this high priest also have something to offer. 4 Now if He were on earth, He would not be a priest at all

this is a pretty big deal to those Jewish Christians that "had" been used to having earthly priests - until .... the event described in Hebrews
 
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BobRyan

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In philosophy, anamnesis (/ˌænæmˈniːsɪs/; Ancient Greek: ἀνάμνησις) is a concept in Plato's epistemological and psychological theory that he develops in his dialogues Meno and Phaedo, and alludes to in his Phaedrus.

It is the idea that humans possess knowledge from past incarnations and that learning consists of rediscovering that knowledge within us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamnesis_(philosophy)

===========================================

By contrast - "Sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and tradition".

Pick one.
 
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Wgw

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In philosophy, anamnesis (/ˌænæmˈniːsɪs/; Ancient Greek: ἀνάμνησις) is a concept in Plato's epistemological and psychological theory that he develops in his dialogues Meno and Phaedo, and alludes to in his Phaedrus.

It is the idea that humans possess knowledge from past incarnations and that learning consists of rediscovering that knowledge within us.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamnesis_(philosophy)

===========================================

By contrast - "Sola scriptura testing of all doctrine and tradition".

Pick one.

Which is not what it means in Eucharistic theology:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anamnesis_(Christianity)

It is inherently a distortion to suggest the technical meaning of a word in one context applies to the different technical meaning of a word in another context. St. Epiphanius of Salamis and numerous other Patristic figures were sharply critical of Plato and Greek philosophy even as they used the word anamnesis in a liturgical and theological capacity.

See also http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/anamnesis
 
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Wgw

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I did not bring that word up here -- you did.

I prefer the facts of the actual Bible -
44 minutes ago #106

Which is good, since Anamnesis comes from the original Koine Greek New Testament:

http://biblehub.com/greek/364.htm

The problem is simply anamnesis when translated into English tends to lack the full sense of recapitulation conveyed forcefully by the Greek original.
 
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Which is good, since Anamnesis comes from the original Koine Greek New Testament:

http://biblehub.com/greek/364.htm

The problem is simply anamnesis when translated into English tends to lack the full sense of recapitulation conveyed forcefully by the Greek original.
By your def. what then of Hebrews 10:3?

Hebrews 10:3 KJV - But in those [sacrifices there is] a remembrance again[G364] [made] of sins every year.​

or of the so-called LXX [simply meaning to bring to mind, remember]:

Leviticus 24:7 KJV - And thou shalt put pure frankincense upon [each] row, that it may be on the bread for a memorial, [even] an offering made by fire unto the LORD.

Leviticus 24:7 [so-called LXX]:

http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/search.php?mode=fetch&text=LXX&range=Lv24:7&lemma=ἀνάμνησις&i=on

Psalm 38:1 KJV - [[A Psalm of David, to bring to remembrance.]] O LORD, rebuke me not in thy wrath: neither chasten me in thy hot displeasure.

Psalms 37:1 [so-called LXX]:
http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/search.php?mode=fetch&text=LXX&range=Ps37:1&lemma=ἀνάμνησις&i=on

Psalm 70:1 KJV - [[To the chief Musician, [A Psalm] of David, to bring to remembrance.]] [Make haste], O God, to deliver me; make haste to help me, O LORD.

Psalms 69:1 [so-called LXX]:
http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/search.php?mode=fetch&text=LXX&range=Ps69:1&lemma=ἀνάμνησις&i=on

Numbers 10:10 KJV - Also in the day of your gladness, and in your solemn days, and in the beginnings of your months, ye shall blow with the trumpets over your burnt offerings, and over the sacrifices of your peace offerings; that they may be to you for a memorial before your God: I [am] the LORD your God.

Numbers 10:10 [so-called LXX]:
http://lexicon.katabiblon.com/search.php?mode=fetch&text=LXX&range=Nm10:10&lemma=ἀνάμνησις&i=on

Luke 22:19 KJV - And he took bread, and gave thanks, and brake [it], and gave unto them, saying, This is my body which is given for you: this do in remembrance[G364] of me.

1 Corinthians 11:24 KJV - And when he had given thanks, he brake [it], and said, Take, eat: this is my body, which is broken for you: this do in remembrance[G364] of me.

1 Corinthians 11:25 KJV - After the same manner also [he took] the cup, when he had supped, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood: this do ye, as oft as ye drink [it], in remembrance[G364] of me.

It comes from the word ἀναμιμνῄσκω
- https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G363&t=KJV

Mark 11:21 KJV - And Peter calling to remembrance[G363] saith unto him, Master, behold, the fig tree which thou cursedst is withered away.

Mark 14:72 KJV - And the second time the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crew. And Peter called to mind[G363] the word that Jesus said unto him, Before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow twice, thou shalt deny me thrice. And when he thought thereon, he wept.

1 Corinthians 4:17 KJV - For this cause have I sent unto you Timotheus, who is my beloved son, and faithful in the Lord, who shall bring[G363] you into remembrance[G363] of my ways which be in Christ, as I teach every where in every church.

2 Corinthians 7:15 KJV - And his inward affection is more abundant toward you, whilst he remembereth[G363] the obedience of you all, how with fear and trembling ye received him.

2 Timothy 1:6 KJV - Wherefore I put[G363] thee in remembrance[G363] that thou stir up the gift of God, which is in thee by the putting on of my hands.

Hebrews 10:32 KJV - But call to remembrance[G363] the former days, in which, after ye were illuminated, ye endured a great fight of afflictions;

Which is rooted in μιμνῄσκομαι -
https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3403&t=KJV

Hebrews 2:6 KJV - But one in a certain place testified, saying, What is man, that thou art mindful[G3403] of him? or the son of man, that thou visitest him?

Hebrews 13:3 KJV - Remember[G3403] them that are in bonds, as bound with them; [and] them which suffer adversity, as being yourselves also in the body.

Simply a prolonged form of μνάομαι
- https://www.blueletterbible.org/lang/Lexicon/lexicon.cfm?strongs=G3415&t=KJV

Matthew 5:23 KJV - Therefore if thou bring thy gift to the altar, and there rememberest[G3415] that thy brother hath ought against thee;

Matthew 26:75 KJV - And Peter remembered[G3415] the word of Jesus, which said unto him, Before the [bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse][bless and do not curse] crow, thou shalt deny me thrice. And he went out, and wept bitterly.

Matthew 27:63 KJV - Saying, Sir, we remember[G3415] that that deceiver said, while he was yet alive, After three days I will rise again.

Luke 1:54 KJV - He hath holpen his servant Israel, in remembrance[G3415] of [his] mercy;

Luke 1:72 KJV - To perform the mercy [promised] to our fathers, and to remember[G3415] his holy covenant;

Luke 16:25 KJV - But Abraham said, Son, remember[G3415] that thou in thy lifetime receivedst thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.

Luke 23:42 KJV - And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember[G3415] me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

Luke 24:6 KJV - He is not here, but is risen: remember[G3415] how he spake unto you when he was yet in Galilee,

Luke 24:8 KJV - And they remembered[G3415] his words,
John 2:17 KJV - And his disciples remembered[G3415] that it was written, The zeal of thine house hath eaten me up.

John 2:22 KJV - When therefore he was risen from the dead, his disciples remembered[G3415] that he had said this unto them; and they believed the scripture, and the word which Jesus had said.

John 12:16 KJV - These things understood not his disciples at the first: but when Jesus was glorified, then remembered they[G3415] that these things were written of him, and [that] they had done these things unto him.

Acts 10:31 KJV - And said, Cornelius, thy prayer is heard, and thine alms are had in remembrance[G3415] in the sight of God.

Acts 11:16 KJV - Then remembered I[G3415] the word of the Lord, how that he said, John indeed baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost.

1 Corinthians 11:2 KJV - Now I praise you, brethren, that ye remember[G3415] me in all things, and keep the ordinances, as I delivered [them] to you.

2 Timothy 1:4 KJV - Greatly desiring to see thee, being mindful[G3415] of thy tears, that I may be filled with joy;

Hebrews 8:12 KJV - For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their iniquities will I remember[G3415] no more.

Hebrews 10:17 KJV - And their sins and iniquities will I remember[G3415] no more.

2 Peter 3:2 KJV - That ye may be mindful[G3415] of the words which were spoken before by the holy prophets, and of the commandment of us the apostles of the Lord and Saviour:

Jude 1:17 KJV - But, beloved, remember[G3415] ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Revelation 16:19 KJV - And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance[G3415] before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.

1 Peter 3:18 KJV - For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:

Does He suffer over and over again? He is the Passover each time in "transubstantiation"? If you say 'yes', then that means you're really celebrating the 6th Day, Friday, each time? since it was in that Day Jesus died as Sacrifice?:

1 Corinthians 5:7 KJV - Purge out therefore the old leaven, that ye may be a new lump, as ye are unleavened. For even Christ our passover is sacrificed for us:

Revelation 1:18 KJV - I [am] he that liveth, and was dead; and, behold, I am alive for evermore, Amen; and have the keys of hell and of death.

Romans 6:9 KJV - Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him.

Is Jesus also Resurrected over and over again? The firstfruits each time? That would destroy the types and the anti-type.

Well?
 
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Wgw

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As I said before, there is only one Eucharist, in which we participate during the Divine Liturgy.

The disparate uses of the word "remebrance" and "memorial" cited above, translated from dofferent Greek and Hebrew original words, simply prove my point that the KJV is somewhat sloppy when it comes to word choice, although it is much better than for example the Dynamic Equivalence translations like the NIV. Not as good as the Douay-Rheims alas.
 
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... The disparate uses of the word "remebrance" and "memorial" cited above, translated from two different Greek and Hebrew original words ...
You do realize that the so-called LXX was cited with the exact same word?

You do also realize that scripture [KJB] throughout, uses two and three [witnesses] differing words which mean the same thing? ie. "created", "made", "formed".

Isaiah 43:7 KJB - [Even] every one that is called by my name: for I have created him for my glory, I have formed him; yea, I have made him.​

The KJB has a built in alphabet, numbers, dictionary, thesaurus and math tables, etc.

Another:

1 Samuel 9:9 KJV - (Beforetime in Israel, when a man went to enquire of God, thus he spake, Come, and let us go to the seer: for [he that is] now [called] a Prophet was beforetime called a Seer.)​

Another:

Job 41:18 KJV - By his neesings a light doth shine, and his eyes [are] like the eyelids of the morning.
Job 41:19 KJV - Out of his mouth go burning lamps, [and] sparks of fire leap out.
Job 41:20 KJV - Out of his nostrils goeth smoke, as [out] of a seething pot or caldron.
Job 41:21 KJV - His breath kindleth coals, and a flame goeth out of his mouth.
Another:

Judges 9:2 KJV - Speak, I pray you, in the ears of all the men of Shechem, Whether [is] better for you, either that all the sons of Jerubbaal, [which are] threescore and ten persons, reign over you, or that one reign over you? remember also that I [am] your bone and your flesh.

Judges 9:4 KJV - And they gave him threescore and ten [pieces] of silver out of the house of Baalberith, wherewith Abimelech hired vain and light persons, which followed him.

Judges 9:5 KJV - And he went unto his father's house at Ophrah, and slew his brethren the sons of Jerubbaal, [being] threescore and ten persons, upon one stone: notwithstanding yet Jotham the youngest son of Jerubbaal was left; for he hid himself.

Judges 9:56 KJV - Thus God rendered the wickedness of Abimelech, which he did unto his father, in slaying his seventy brethren:
etc.
 
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Standing Up

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For one thing, "Transubstantiation" is NOT about memorial vs sacrifice. It's about the bread and wine becoming Christ's body and blood in a literal as well as spiritual sense. That's independent of any idea of the Mass being a sacrifice.
Not really. They wouldn't have a sacrifice, unless they thought it was flesh/blood literally. This is the slippery slope into "real presence" talk.

There's memorial. And then there's the belief that their priest is making a real sacrifice whether (re) or (same).
 
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Albion

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Not really.
Yes, it is. There's a certain logic to believing it to be a sacrifice if you believe in Transubstantiation, but it's not necessary, no more than it is in churches which believe in some other version of Real Presence but firmly reject the idea that the priest is sacrificing him (Christ).

There's memorial. And then there's the belief that their priest is making a real sacrifice whether (re) or (same).

...and then there are those who are in the middle--which shows that the idea of sacrificing Christ and the belief in either Transubstantiation or Consubstantiation or some other version of Real Presence are not necessarily connected.
 
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Crypto-nominalism aside, the Orthodox agree with Hebrews, which is why our theology defines participation in the one historic Eucharist (anamnesis).
After untold years of quoting Hebrews, those folks who prefer their priest/sacrifice system finally figured out a deflection. It's a sacrifice, not a different sacrifice, though it is (sans blood), but it's a participation in the original.
 
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Albion

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After untold years of quoting Hebrews, those folks who prefer their priest/sacrifice system finally figured out a deflection. It's a sacrifice, not a different sacrifice, though it is (sans blood), but it's a participation in the original.
That is what is said these days in RC circles, yes.
 
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After untold years of quoting Hebrews, those folks who prefer their priest/sacrifice system finally figured out a deflection. It's a sacrifice, not a different sacrifice, though it is (sans blood), but it's a participation in the original.
I don't see the point in promoting a recurring and personal "participation" in the one act by Jesus that brought atonement for all our sin. Do the repeated sacraments somehow complete Jesus' sacrifice? In the same vain, do we all need to repeatedly "participate" in the original sin that brought the need for our Savior's death? Maybe that is what Mardi Gras is.

As Hebrews says, Jesus death is his perfection, completing the promise that atoned for all sin. Participation in Jesus' death does not save us, if so how are the Old Testament saved? Hebrews clearly says it is faith in Jesus' death that saves.

What I think is so missing in all these Lord's Supper discussions is that above all else, Jesus instituted it as the New Covenant. Think back to what the Old Covenant is. The Lord's Supper was instituted on Passover and replaces it along with many other traditions. The Passover was instituted by God to remember/be mindful of his grace. It was not the source of their salvation and certainly not a participation in some future act of Jesus death for salvation. Please note that while Passover was a memorial, it was more than a symbolic remembrance. It was a holy sacrament just as sacrifices were.

Exodus 12:14 “This day[Passover] shall be for you a memorial day, and you shall keep it as a feast to the Lord; throughout your generations, as a statute forever, you shall keep it as a feast.
Leviticus 23:2 These are the appointed feasts of the Lord that you shall proclaim as
holy convocations; they are my appointed feasts.
 
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