give up pork

Der Alter said:

If you want anyone to read your brother's article I suggest you convert it to text and post it again. I am not going to download anything from someone I don't know.

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I download stuff all the time from them that I don't know. They got a new fangled invention called Avast antivirus that didn't even flinch when I down loaded the OP's PDF. It's an excellent work of 27 pages that probably wouldn't fit too well on these pages but has found a place on Dave's hard drive, thank you.

I'm still trying to figure this all out but until I do I became a pork abstainer in 2012 and since that time a devout Sabbath keeper as well. I haven't figured out the credit hours of koine Greek yet but I also think that if the Lord told a group of people in 1437BC that He didn't like them getting tattoos then He must have had a good reason for it and as for me and my house we will follow the Lord.

This goes beyond a salvific issue. I'm sure they'll be lots of ex pork eating, body pierced and tattooed people in Heaven. But at this point in time I'd rather err on the side of caution. At this point in time all of the old school Leviticus commands to Israel might just be giving insight into how the Lord wants us to behave or how He wished we would WANT to behave. Because with this stuff it's never too late for the individual, like quitting smoking your blood pressure goes down to normal in two days. Even if we've been smoking as were in the days of Elvis or in the days of Lot.


Does this mean that there will be different levels when we stand in our allotted place at the end of the days?

An already clicked by me snip (safe) link.
http://www.christianforums.com/atta...s-still-a-sin-in-the-new-covenant-pdf.164308/

Living in Uncleanness is still a Sin in the New Covenant

Remember:

High Percentage (76% and up) = good to the human body.

Low Percentage (75% or less) = destructive and/or poisonous to the human body.

BEASTS (clean):

-Calf 82%
-Deer 98%
-Goat 90%
-Ox 91%
-Sheep 94%

BEASTS (unclean):

-Black bear 59%
-Camel 41%
-Cat 62%
-Dog 62%
-Fox 58%
-Grizzly bear 55%
-Groundhog 53%
-Hamster 46%
-Horse 39%
-Opossum 53%
-Rabbit 49%
-Rat 55%
-Rhino 60%
-Squirrel 43%
-Pig 54%

BIRDS (clean):

-Goose 85%
-Chicken 83%
-Duck 98%
-Pigeon 93%
-Quail 89%
-Swan 87%
-Turkey 85%

BIRDS (unclean):

-Crow 46%
-Owl 62%
-Red-tail hawk 36%
-Sparrow hawk 63 %

FISH (clean):

-Black bass 80%
-Black drum 105%
-Bluefish 80%
-Carp 90%
-Chub 91%
-Cod 98%
-Croaker 90%
-Halibut 82%
-Herring 100%
-Pike 98%
-Salmon 81%
-Smelt 90%
-Sea bass 103%
-Bluefin tuna 88%

FISH (unclean):

-Catfish 48%
-Eel 40%
-Porcupine fish 60%
-Puffer 51%
-Sand skate 59%
-Dogfish shark 62%
-Stingray 46%
-Toad fish 49 %

Macht’s study proved there is a clear scientific distinction between the toxicity of the meats listed as clean and unclean in Scripture.



But are people more worried about the virus that goes into their computer than the corrupt food that they put into their bodies? Like I'm the one that should be talking, my favorite dinner is a full family size bag of Doritos. My mouth is watering just thinking about them, I gotta go get me a bag.

http://www.christianforums.com/atta...s-still-a-sin-in-the-new-covenant-pdf.164308/


DORITOS® Nacho Cheese Flavored Tortilla Chips





PS I gotta figure out what that Black Drum is, how could it be 105%. Never heard of it in my neck of the woods. It probably tastes like a black drum too or else it would be in all the stores and restaurants.

And the Lord will guide you continually
and satisfy your desire in scorched places
and make your bones strong;
and you shall be like a well watered garden,
like a spring of water,
whose waters do not fail.

And you won't get any older.
And you won't ever die.

Soyeong said:

I can grant the Greek definitions in those posts, but that doesn't contradict my post.

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My posts refutes your unsupported claim about "a man-made ritual purity law." Mar 7:19 καθαρίζων [cleans/cleanses/purifies] πάντα [all] τὰ βρώματα. ["food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonial) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law: - meat, victuals."]

Dave Watchman said:

High Percentage (76% and up) = good to the human body.

Low Percentage (75% or less) = destructive and/or poisonous to the human body.

BEASTS (clean):
-Calf 82%
-Deer 98%
-Goat 90%
-Ox 91%
-Sheep 94%

BEASTS (unclean):

-Black bear 59%
-Camel 41%
-Cat 62%
-Dog 62%
-Fox 58%
-Grizzly bear 55%
-Groundhog 53%
-Hamster 46%
-Horse 39%
-Opossum 53%
-Rabbit 49%
-Rat 55%
-Rhino 60%
-Squirrel 43%
-Pig 54%

BIRDS (clean):

-Goose 85%
-Chicken 83%
-Duck 98%
-Pigeon 93%
-Quail 89%
-Swan 87%
-Turkey 85%

BIRDS (unclean):

-Crow 46%
-Owl 62%
-Red-tail hawk 36%
-Sparrow hawk 63 %

FISH (clean):

-Black bass 80%
-Black drum 105%
-Bluefish 80%
-Carp 90%
-Chub 91%
-Cod 98%
-Croaker 90%
-Halibut 82%
-Herring 100%
-Pike 98%
-Salmon 81%
-Smelt 90%
-Sea bass 103%
-Bluefin tuna 88%

FISH (unclean):

-Catfish 48%
-Eel 40%
-Porcupine fish 60%
-Puffer 51%
-Sand skate 59%
-Dogfish shark 62%
-Stingray 46%
-Toad fish 49 %

Macht’s study proved there is a clear scientific distinction between the toxicity of the meats listed as clean and unclean in Scripture.

Click to expand...

Wow! This is an awesome list!

Where'd this info come from?

From this link? http://www.apologeticspress.org/apcontent.aspx?category=13&article=2024

Dave Watchman said:

...It's an excellent work of 27 pages that probably wouldn't fit too well on these pages but has found a place on Dave's hard drive, thank you.

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That some anonymous writing agrees with one's assumptions/presuppositions does not make it "an excellent work." What makes a work excellent is being peer reviewed by authorities in the field.

I'm still trying to figure this all out but until I do I became a pork abstainer in 2012 and since that time a devout Sabbath keeper as well.

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One's personal convictions and choices are not authoritative, compelling others to do the same.

I haven't figured out the credit hours of koine Greek yet but I also think that if the Lord told a group of people in 1437BC that He didn't like them getting tattoos then He must have had a good reason for it and as for me and my house we will follow the Lord.

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This is typical for controversial theologies. Quoting a verse out-of-context to support one's assumptions/presuppositions. When one claims to have the correct interpretation of words and phrases in the Bible, one should have considerable knowledge of the original languages.

But at this point in time I'd rather err on the side of caution. At this point in time all of the old school Leviticus commands to Israel might just be giving insight into how the Lord wants us to behave or how He wished we would WANT to behave. Because with this stuff it's never too late for the individual, like quitting smoking your blood pressure goes down to normal in two days.

Click to expand...

Please show me where the disciples instructed all the gentile Christians in Corinth, Rome, Ephesus, Philippi, Galatia, etc. "all of the old school Leviticus commands?" I cannot find that in any NT book.

Therefore whoever relaxes one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever does them and teaches them will be called great in the kingdom of heaven"

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Living in Uncleanness is still a Sin in the New Covenant
Remember:
High Percentage (76% and up) = good to the human body.
Low Percentage (75% or less) = destructive and/or poisonous to the human body.

Click to expand...

...
Macht’s study proved there is a clear scientific distinction between the toxicity of the meats listed as clean and unclean in Scripture.

Click to expand...

Who is Macht? What are his qualifications? Was this "study" peer reviewed by any scholarly authorities in the field?

Der Alter said:

Please show me where the disciples instructed all the gentile Christians in Corinth, Rome, Ephesus, Philippi, Galatia, etc. "all of the old school Leviticus commands?" I cannot find that in any NT book.

Click to expand...

Here's what Jesus and the Apostles say.

Most Christians throw these verses out.

The very verses that explain the other "grace" verses about DON'T try to be saved by keeping the law.

Paul teaches against trying to be saved by keeping the law, but he never says to do away with the law for holy living.

PAUL SAYS USE THE LAW PROPERLY - NOT FOR SALVATION, BUT FOR HOLY LIVING
"Therefore the law is holy, and the commandment holy and just and good." - Romans 7:12

"But we know that the law is good if one uses it lawfully." - 1 Timothy 1:8

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." - Romans 3:31


JESUS COMMANDS IT
"Whoever therefore breaks one of the least of these commandments, and teaches men so, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever does and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." - Matthew 5:19

"If you love Me, keep My commandments." - John 14:15, John 14:10


JESUS WARNS AGAINST LAWLESSNESS
"And then I will declare to them, ‘I never knew you; depart from Me, you who practice lawlessness!’" - Matthew 7:23

"The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness." - Matthew 13:41

"Even so you also outwardly appear righteous to men, but inside you are full of hypocrisy and lawlessness." - Matthew 23:28

"Jesus found the man at the Temple [area] and said to him, “See, you are well now. ·Stop sinning.” " - John 5:14

"Jesus said, “I also don’t ·judge you guilty [condemn you]. ·You may go now, but don’t sin anymore." " - John 8:11


PAUL WARNS AGAINST LAWLESSNESS
"For just as you presented your members as slaves of uncleanness, and of lawlessness leading to more lawlessness, so now present your members as slaves of righteousness for holiness." - Romans 6:19

"What fellowship has righteousness with lawlessness?" - 2 Corinthians 6:14

"The law is not made for a righteous person, but for the lawless and insubordinate, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers." - 1 Timothy 1:9

"You have loved righteousness and hated lawlessness, therefore God has anointed you." - Hebrews 1:9, Psalms 45:7

"Come back to your right way of thinking [Come to your senses; or Sober up as you should] and stop sinning. Some of you ·do not know [or are ignorant about] God—I say this to shame you." - 1 Corinthians 15:34


PAUL SAID HE KEPT THE LAW BLAMELESSLY
"If anyone else thinks he may have confidence in the flesh, I more so: concerning the righteousness which is in the law, blameless." - Philippians 3:4, Philippians 3:6


JOHN SAID WE SHOULD WALK LIKE JESUS DID
"He who says he abides in Him ought himself also to walk just as He walked." - 1 John 2:6


MOSES, DAVID, PAUL, AND JOHN SAY THERE IS FORGIVENESS FOR SINS
"Blessed are those whose lawless deeds are forgiven, And whose sins are covered." - Romans 4:7, Psalms 32:1

"So the priest shall make atonement for him concerning his sin, and it shall be forgiven him." - Leviticus 4:26, Leviticus 4:35, Leviticus 5:10

"Who gave Himself for us, that He might redeem us from every lawless deed and purify for Himself His own special people, zealous for good works." - Titus 2:14

"For I will be merciful to their unrighteousness, and their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more." - Hebrews 8:12, Hebrews 10:17

"Whoever commits sin also commits lawlessness, and sin is lawlessness." - 1 John 3:4

"If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." - 1 John 1:9


JESUS PROMOTES LAW AND GRACE TOGETHER
"Then Jesus said to them, “So every ·teacher of the law [scribe] who has ·been taught about [become a disciple of] the kingdom of heaven is like the ·owner [head] of a house. He brings out both new things and old things ·he has saved [from his treasure/storeroom; knowledge of the Old Testament provides insight into Jesus’ “new” message of the kingdom of God].” " - Matthew 13:52

"And He replied to him, You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind (intellect). 38 This is the great (most important, principal) and first commandment. 39 And a second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as [you do] yourself. 40 All the law and the ·writings of the prophets [prophets] ·depend [are based; hang] on these two commands." - Matthew 22:37-40


THE APOSTLES PROMOTE LAW AND GRACE TOGETHER
"So also faith, if it does not have works (deeds and actions of obedience to back it up), by itself is destitute of power (inoperative, dead)." - James 2:17

"For as the human body apart from the spirit is lifeless, so faith apart from [its] works of obedience is also dead." - James 2:26

"Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law." - Romans 3:31


THE BIBLE PROMOTES LAW AND GRACE TOGETHER
John 17:17, Psalms 119:160, John 1:14, John 1:17, Colossians 1:6, 2 John 1:3, Genesis 24:27, 2 Samuel 15:20, Proverbs 3:3, Proverbs 16:6, Micah 7:20


GRACE UNDER THE LAW
Psalms 32:2, Psalms 51:10, Psalms 109:26, 1 Chronicles 16:34, Ezra 9:9, Nehemiah 9:31-32, Nehemiah 13:22, Psalms 5:7, Psalms 23:6, Psalms 33:18, Psalms 33:22, Psalms 36:5, Psalms 52:8, Psalms 59:17, Psalms 86:15, Psalms 98:3, Psalms 100:5, Psalms 105:8, Psalms 136, Proverbs 28:13, Isaiah 14:1, Isaiah 54:8-10, Isaiah 55:7, Jeremiah 31:20, Ezekiel 39:25, Daniel 9:9, Hosea 1:7-8, Micah 7:18-20, Zechariah 1:16, Zechariah 10:6, Leviticus 4:26, Leviticus 4:35, Leviticus 5:10

Truthfrees said:

Here's what Jesus and the Apostles say.

Most Christians throw these verses out.

The very verses that explain the other "grace" verses about DON'T try to be saved by keeping the law.

Paul teaches against trying to be saved by keeping the law, but he never says to do away with the law for holy living....

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You quoted my post and did not address anything I said. Please show me where Peter, Paul, John, etc. taught gentile Christians in Galatia, Corinth, Thessalonica, Ephesus, etc. everything you quoted in your post?

Der Alter said:

Please show me where the disciples instructed all the gentile Christians in Corinth, Rome, Ephesus, Philippi, Galatia, etc. "all of the old school Leviticus commands?" I cannot find that in any NT book.

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Jesus and the Apostles quoted the old school laws so often that the NT is pretty much an abridged version of the OT.

Check out this chart to see 300 scriptures that prove Torah is what Jesus and the Apostles taught: http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

The OT is the only "scripture" Jesus and the Apostles had.

Paul said to live by OT: 2 Timothy 3:16-17 - "All Scripture is ·inspired by God [breathed out by God; God-breathed] and is useful for teaching, for ·showing people what is wrong in their lives [refuting error; rebuking], for correcting faults, and for ·teaching how to live right [training in righteousness].17 ·Using the Scriptures, [....so that] ·the person who serves God [God’s person] will be ·capable [competent], ·having all that is needed [fully equipped] to do every good work."

Before I became MJ, as a Torahless Christian, I'd been programmed to think Torah was oppressive and impossible to do.

It's man's laws that are oppressive and impossible to do.

MAN'S LAWS KILL
1. "Jesus answered, “·How terrible for [ Woe to] you, you experts on the law! You ·make strict rules that are very hard for people to obey [burden people with burdens hard to carry], but you yourselves don’t even ·try to follow those rules [or lift a finger to ease the burden]." - Luke 11:46

2. "By your own ·rules [tradition], which you ·teach people [have handed down], you are ·rejecting [nullifying; canceling] what God said. And you do many things like that." - Mark 7:13

GOD'S LAWS GIVE LIFE
3. "Jesus answered, “It is written in the Scriptures, ‘A person lives not on bread alone, but by ·everything God says [every word that comes out of God’s mouth;Deut. 8:3].’ " - Matthew 4:4

4. "Then you will know the truth, and the truth will ·make [set] you free." - John 8:32

Der Alter said:

My posts refutes your unsupported claim about "a man-made ritual purity law." Mar 7:19 καθαρίζων [cleans/cleanses/purifies] πάντα [all] τὰ βρώματα. ["food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonial) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law: - meat, victuals."]

Click to expand...

Throughout the Bible, washing is always in regard to becoming ritually clean and never in regard to making a non-kosher animal into a kosher one. In other words, you couldn't wash a pig to make it kosher, whenever someone or something was being cleansed it was about ritual purity. The fact that the Jesus' discussion is from beginning to end about becoming unclean by eating kosher food with unwashed hands (Matthew 15:2, Matthew 15:20) shows that it is about a man-made ritual purity law, so cleansing is in its proper context. So even if I were to grant that they were referring to everything that could be eaten, it would only be saying that they were ritually cleansed.

However, Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 define what could be eaten as food, so when you have Jewish rabbis talking about food, they aren't speaking in Greek and they aren't referring to everything that could be eaten. Do you have anything that you grant could be eaten, but which you wouldn't consider eating unless maybe you were starving to death? For instance, a vulture could be eaten, but it's not what comes to mind when most people think about the category of food. In the same way, Jews might acknowledge that unclean animals could be eaten, but it was not what was coming to anyone's mind, especially because that wasn't even the topic. So even though the word that they used when translated into Greek could include all animals, I see good reasons to think that weren't talking about food in the broadest sense of the word, and no good reason to think that they were.

Just a few verses earlier, Jesus had called the Pharisees hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God to follow their own traditions. If Jesus had turned around and set aside the commands of God, then he would have been an even bigger hypocrite. Teaching others not to follow God's commands would have been in violation of Deuteronomy 13:4-5, so if he had done so, then he would have been a false teacher and disqualified himself as the Messiah. He would have given his critics for once a legitimate reason to stone him and they wouldn't have needed to find false witnesses at his trial, but no one brought it up or even seemed to have noticed. Setting aside the commands of God would have been a major doctrinal issue, not something relegated to a parenthetical side comment on a different topic. Consistently throughout the Bible man's laws are overruled while God's law is upheld.

Truthfrees said:

Jesus and the Apostles quoted the old school laws so often that the NT is pretty much an abridged version of the OT.

Check out this chart to see 300 scriptures that prove Torah is what Jesus and the Apostles taught: http://www.kalvesmaki.com/LXX/NTChart.htm

The OT is the only "scripture" Jesus and the Apostles had.

Paul said to live by OT: 2 Timothy 3:16-17 - "All Scripture is ·inspired by God [breathed out by God; God-breathed] and is useful for teaching, for ·showing people what is wrong in their lives [refuting error; rebuking], for correcting faults, and for ·teaching how to live right [training in righteousness].17 ·Using the Scriptures, [....so that] ·the person who serves God [God’s person] will be ·capable [competent], ·having all that is needed [fully equipped] to do every good work."

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In other words you cannot show me where any of the NT writers specifically taught the gentile Christians to "give up pork" and the other dietary laws, to observe all the OT feasts and festivals, holy days, etc.

Der Alter said:

In other words you cannot show me where any of the NT writers specifically taught the gentile Christians to "give up pork" and the other dietary laws, to observe all the OT feasts and festivals, holy days, etc.

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1 Peter 1:13-16 Therefore, preparing your minds for action,[a] and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Leviticus 11:45-46 For I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. You shall not defile yourselves with any swarming thing that crawls on the ground. 45 For I am the Lord who brought you up out of the land of Egypt to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.”

In 1 Peter, it says to have a holy conduct and then quotes from Leviticus 11, where it talks about dietary laws. Dietary laws are part of what the Bible instructs for how to have a holy conduct, so while it doesn't directly say "give up pork", I think the inference is pretty clear. When you you join a new religion, it should be a no-brainer that one of your first steps is to learn the rules in order to obey your God, so the issue isn't so much about whether ex-Gentiles were ever told to obey the God they serve, but that they were never told not to obey Him. They were instructed to have a righteous conduct (1 John 3:10) and God's law is His instructions for how to have a righteous conduct. Furthermore, Paul continued to be Torah observant and encouraged the Colossians not let anyone keep them from obeying God's commands:

Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

Truth Only said:

Some people just want to remain blind, let them alone, they be blind leaders of the blind & if the blind leads the blind, both shall fall into the ditch, I am done with this post, if anyone wants the real truth on this matter, go to my blog. Shalom!

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If someone has a general disrespect for God's instructions to mankind, then there really isn't a point in arguing over just one.

Soyeong said:

Throughout the Bible, washing is always in regard to becoming ritually clean and never in regard to making a non-kosher animal into a kosher one. In other words, you couldn't wash a pig to make it kosher, whenever someone or something was being cleansed it was about ritual purity. The fact that the Jesus' discussion is from beginning to end about becoming unclean by eating kosher food with unwashed hands (Matthew 15:2, Matthew 15:20) shows that it is about a man-made ritual purity law, so cleansing is in its proper context. So even if I were to grant that they were referring to everything that could be eaten, it would only be saying that they were ritually cleansed.

Click to expand...

Repeating what you said before does not refute what I said and does not make it any more correct. If Mark had intended to say something different than what he said, he would have used different words. The word is katharizo and means to clean, cleanse, or purify. If Mark was talking about man made purity laws, i.e. eating with unwashed hands, as Jesus said, that did not make a person unclean so there would not have been any need to "katharizo, clean, cleanse,purify something that was not unclean in the first place.

However, Leviticus 11 and Deuteronomy 14 define what could be eaten as food, so when you have Jewish rabbis talking about food, they aren't speaking in Greek and they aren't referring to everything that could be eaten. Do you have anything that you grant could be eaten, but which you wouldn't consider eating unless maybe you were starving to death? For instance, a vulture could be eaten, but it's not what comes to mind when most people think about the category of food. In the same way, Jews might acknowledge that unclean animals could be eaten, but it was not what was coming to anyone's mind, especially because that wasn't even the topic. So even though the word that they used when translated into Greek could include all animals, I see good reasons to think that weren't talking about food in the broadest sense of the word, and no good reason to think that they were.

Click to expand...

I showed you the exact meaning of the word translated "meat" in Mark 7:19, βρῶμα, bro'-mah, From the base of G977; food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonial) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law: - meat, victuals. This says nothing about unwashed hands. I am quite sure that Mark understood what Jesus was saying. There was in fact no unclean food involved only the violation of a man made rule, the washing of hands. That being so there was nothing to clean, cleanse or purify because nothing was unclean in the first place

Just a few verses earlier, Jesus had called the Pharisees hypocrites for setting aside the commands of God to follow their own traditions. If Jesus had turned around and set aside the commands of God, then he would have been an even bigger hypocrite. Teaching others not to follow God's commands would have been in violation of Deuteronomy 13:4-5, so if he had done so, then he would have been a false teacher and disqualified himself as the Messiah. He would have given his critics for once a legitimate reason to stone him and they wouldn't have needed to find false witnesses at his trial, but no one brought it up or even seemed to have noticed. Setting aside the commands of God would have been a major doctrinal issue, not something relegated to a parenthetical side comment on a different topic. Consistently throughout the Bible man's laws are overruled while God's law is upheld.

Click to expand...

None of this actually addresses anything I said.

Soyeong said:

1 Peter 1:13-16 Therefore, preparing your minds for action,[a] and being sober-minded, set your hope fully on the grace that will be brought to you at the revelation of Jesus Christ. 14 As obedient children, do not be conformed to the passions of your former ignorance, 15 but as he who called you is holy, you also be holy in all your conduct, 16 since it is written, “You shall be holy, for I am holy.”

Leviticus 11:45-46 For I am the Lord your God. Consecrate yourselves therefore, and be holy, for I am holy. You shall not defile yourselves with any swarming thing that crawls on the ground. 45 For I am the Lord who brought you up out of the land of Egypt to be your God. You shall therefore be holy, for I am holy.”

Click to expand...

To whom was Peter talking in his first letter? "The strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia," The word translated "stranger" means "an alien alongside, that is, a resident foreigner:" In the NT it refers primarily "Christians as having their citizenship in heaven." How would they know the law without the OT or the disciples specifically teaching them? I have yet to see that NT scripture which compels Gentile Christians to observe the dietary laws, dress code, observe all the holy days, feasts, festivals, etc. Since neither Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, James and Jude gave such commandments to gentile Christians anywhere in the NT why does a group whose beginnings are less than 200 years old compel gentile Christians to do so today? Paul seemed to have a problem with Peter over that same issue.

Something about the way gentile Christians were living was different than the Jews.

In 1 Peter, it says to have a holy conduct and then quotes from Leviticus 11, where it talks about dietary laws. Dietary laws are part of what the Bible instructs for how to have a holy conduct, so while it doesn't directly say "give up pork", I think the inference is pretty clear. When you you join a new religion, it should be a no-brainer that one of your first steps is to learn the rules in order to obey your God, so the issue isn't so much about whether ex-Gentiles were ever told to obey the God they serve, but that they were never told not to obey Him. They were instructed to have a righteous conduct (1 John 3:10) and God's law is His instructions for how to have a righteous conduct. Furthermore, Paul continued to be Torah observant and encouraged the Colossians not let anyone keep them from obeying God's commands:

Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

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Your argument will be valid only when you show me that the gentile Christians in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, Thessalonica, Pergamos, Thyatira, Smyrna, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea, etc., either had the Torah in their possession or the NT writers taught the entire Torah to them. The gentile Christians throughout the area referred to in the NT did not have the Torah to begin with, they did not have a complete Bible, as we do, with a NT and the Torah in the front. There is no evidence that the entire Torah was ever taught to the gentile Christians, those Christians could not obey something they had no knowledge of and were never taught.

Der Alter said:

Repeating what you said before does not refute what I said and does not make it any more correct. If Mark had intended to say something different than what he said, he would have used different words. The word is katharizo and means to clean, cleanse, or purify. If Mark was talking about man made purity laws, i.e. eating with unwashed hands, as Jesus said, that did not make a person unclean so there would not have been any need to "katharizo, clean, cleanse,purify something that was not unclean in the first place.

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I have not contested that katharizo means to clean, cleanse, or purify or suggest that mark intended to say something else. What I have said is the word is used in the context of ritual cleansing. There is both the issue with touching kosher food with unwashed hands causing the food to become ritually unclean and eating such food thereby causing the person to become ritually unclean. Jesus disagreed that eating food with unwashed hands made someone ritually unclean and verse 19 further clarified that not even the kosher food was made ritually unclean.

I showed you the exact meaning of the word translated "meat" in Mark 7:19,

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βρῶμα, bro'-mah, From the base of G977; food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonial) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law: - meat, victuals. This says nothing about unwashed hands. I am quite sure that Mark understood what Jesus was saying. There was in fact no unclean food involved only the violation of a man made rule, the washing of hands. That being so there was nothing to clean, cleanse or purify because nothing was unclean in the first place

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Again, I have not suggested that Mark didn't understand what Jesus was saying. I have suggested that the nuances of words don't always translate perfectly. I have also pointed out that while "food" can have a broad definition, it is very often not used in that sense. Many people recognize that cats, dogs, and horses qualify as food that can be eaten, but they don't generally include those animals when they talk about food. The man-made rule said that eating food with unwashed hands made the food ritually unclean, which is why they did ritual washing before eating it, and why eating such food would make them ritually unclean.

None of this actually addresses anything I said.

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It was providing further arguments that your interpretation of Mark 7:19 doesn't fit the context.

Der Alter said:

To whom was Peter talking in his first letter? "The strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia," The word translated "stranger" means "an alien alongside, that is, a resident foreigner:" In the NT it refers primarily "Christians as having their citizenship in heaven." How would they know the law without the OT or the disciples specifically teaching them? I have yet to see that NT scripture which compels Gentile Christians to observe the dietary laws, dress code, observe all the holy days, feasts, festivals, etc. Since neither Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Peter, Paul, James and Jude gave such commandments to gentile Christians anywhere in the NT why does a group whose beginnings are less than 200 years old compel gentile Christians to do so today? Paul seemed to have a problem with Peter over that same issue.

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1 John 3:4-10 Everyone who makes a practice of sinning also practices lawlessness; sin is lawlessness. 5 You know that he appeared in order to take away sins, and in him there is no sin. 6 No one who abides in him keeps on sinning; no one who keeps on sinning has either seen him or known him. 7 Little children, let no one deceive you. Whoever practices righteousness is righteous, as he is righteous. 8 Whoever makes a practice of sinning is of the devil, for the devil has been sinning from the beginning. The reason the Son of God appeared was to destroy the works of the devil. 9 No one born of God makes a practice of sinning, for God's seed abides in him, and he cannot keep on sinning because he has been born of God. 10 By this it is evident who are the children of God, and who are the children of the devil: whoever does not practice righteousness is not of God, nor is the one who does not love his brother.

Colossians 2:16 Therefore let no one pass judgment on you in questions of food and drink, or with regard to a festival or a new moon or a Sabbath.

The law is what gives us knowledge of sin (Romans 3:20), without the law we wouldn't even know what sin was (Romans 7:7), and sin is defined as lawlessness (1 John 3:10). See Truthfrees' post 166 for more verses warning against lawlessness. The law is God's instructions for how to have a righteous conduct and how to avoid a sinful conduct, so whenever the NT is talking about practicing righteousness (1 John 3:10) or training in righteousness (2 Timothy 3:16), or avoiding sin, it's talking about obedience to the law. For the first around 10 years or so after Christ's ascension up until Peter's vision in Acts 10, all Christians were law observant and when Gentiles were included, they were also expected to obey the God they served. Stephen was falsely accused of teaching against the law (Acts 6:13), Paul was falsely accused of teaching against the law (Acts 21:28), and if James was wanting Paul to show that he lived in observance of the law (Acts 21:24), then who in the early church was teaching against the law? Ex-Gentiles still had a lot to learn about about how to keep the law, so the plan was to start them off with the minimum of what they needed to obey in order to have table fellowship with other Jews with the understanding that they would continue to learn about how to keep the law by hearing Moses preached in the synagogues every Sabbath (Acts 15:21).

Something about the way gentile Christians were living was different than the Jews.

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The circumcision group was saying that ex-Gentiles needed to get circumcised to become Jews and keep the law according to their traditions in order to be saved. Peter had been telling ex-Gentiles that they were saved by faith, but by moving to sit with them, his actions were saying to them that they needed to conform to the demands of the circumcision group in order to be saved. He was telling them they weren't actually saved, which is why Paul started going into being saved by faith in verse 15. Living like a Jew refers to all the traditions Jews had for how to keep the law, specifically the one that Peter mention in Acts 10:28 that forbade Jews from visiting or associating with Gentiles.

Your argument will be valid only when you show me that the gentile Christians in Rome, Corinth, Galatia, Ephesus, Philippi, Colossae, Thessalonica, Pergamos, Thyatira, Smyrna, Sardis, Philadelphia, Laodicea, etc., either had the Torah in their possession or the NT writers taught the entire Torah to them. The gentile Christians throughout the area referred to in the NT did not have the Torah to begin with, they did not have a complete Bible, as we do, with a NT and the Torah in the front. There is no evidence that the entire Torah was ever taught to the gentile Christians, those Christians could not obey something they had no knowledge of and were never taught.

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One would think that if ex-Gentiles were being encouraged to have a righteous and holy conduct and to avoid having a sinful conduct that it is implied that they had already received some instruction about what that means or that they could ask. Why else do you think 1 Peter quotes from Leviticus 11?

Soyeong said:

I have not contested that katharizo means to clean, cleanse, or purify or suggest that mark intended to say something else. What I have said is the word is used in the context of ritual cleansing. There is both the issue with touching kosher food with unwashed hands causing the food to become ritually unclean and eating such food thereby causing the person to become ritually unclean. Jesus disagreed that eating food with unwashed hands made someone ritually unclean and verse 19 further clarified that not even the kosher food was made ritually unclean.

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Jesus was not concerned with man made "ritual uncleaness or cleansing." He frequently condemned such man made teachings. Nothing in Torah states that a man was made unclean or defiled by eating with unwashed hands. This idea was only in the minds of the Jewish leaders. Since there was no Torah based uncleaness for eating with unwashed hands, there was nothing to be καθαρίζω kath-ar-id'-zo, to cleanse (literally or figuratively): - (make) clean (-se), purify.
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Again, I have not suggested that Mark didn't understand what Jesus was saying. I have suggested that the nuances of words don't always translate perfectly. I have also pointed out that while "food" can have a broad definition, it is very often not used in that sense.

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In the context of communicating an important Biblical truth I seriously doubt that Mark was using the word βρῶμα, bro'-mah, food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonial) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law: - meat, victuals. in an off hand, figurative or metaphorical way. There were other words he could have used for food that don't have the definitive meaning bromah has. τροφή/trophe, βρῶσις/brosis, διατροφή/diatrophe,

I wonder if there are at least seven who can render a reason in this thread ... reflecting on a proverb ..

Hmmm I am reminded of how calling down fire from heaven when Elijah did it was part of the prophetic deal, but when the apostles wanted to do it, it was insinuated that it was of an evil spirit that their thought came from. Later in the NT writings it was said that the antichrist would call down fire from heaven in plain sight of men .

so it wouldn't be the first time that something that was okay in the age of proclaiming the law and the prophets .. is now demonic in the age of the kingdom of God.

Der Alter said:

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Jesus was not concerned with man made "ritual uncleaness or cleansing." He frequently condemned such man made teachings. Nothing in Torah states that a man was made unclean or defiled by eating with unwashed hands. This idea was only in the minds of the Jewish leaders. Since there was no Torah based uncleaness for eating with unwashed hands, there was nothing to be καθαρίζω kath-ar-id'-zo, to cleanse (literally or figuratively): - (make) clean (-se), purify.

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I've been telling all along that the topic is a man-made ritual purity law. Indeed, he condemned many man-made teachings, and Mark 7:1-23 is another instance of that. They were teaching that eating with unwashed hands made someone ritually unclean, and in verse 15 Jesus overruled that. Mark was making it clear that all the Pharisaic laws that made food ritually unclean were also overruled.

In the context of communicating an important Biblical truth I seriously doubt that Mark was using the word

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βρῶμα, bro'-mah, food (literally or figuratively), especially (ceremonial) articles allowed or forbidden by the Jewish law: - meat, victuals. in an off hand, figurative or metaphorical way. There were other words he could have used for food that don't have the definitive meaning bromah has. τροφή/trophe, βρῶσις/brosis, διατροφή

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/diatrophe,

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We have smaller categories or other terms that we use for food, but we still use the word while not using it in it's broadest sense. If a wife told her husband to pick up some food, she is not expecting him to bring home cats or dogs to eat. But again, even if they were using it in the broadest sense of the word, they are only being ritually cleansed. There were regular cycles of ritual purity, which involved cleansing, but unclean animals don't. By making verse 19 about dietary laws when the whole discussion is about a purity law, you are ripping it out of context.

Furthermore, you ignored the fact that your interpretation turns Jesus into a giant hypocrite and disqualifies him from being the Messiah. The way that the Israelites were told to identify a false teacher was if they taught against obeying God's commands, so they would have immediately rightfully disregarded what he said and had reason to stone him.