Why have children? (Hope this is in the correct category)

1213

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...Nobody deserves being put on a playing field (or so to speak) where there is even an astronomically small chance of going to hell, where suffering is infinite and eternal. ...

Actually Bible doesn’t tell that people suffer eternally in hell. That is interpretation that is maybe too optimistic in some people’s point of view.

Bible tells that the fire burns forever, but hell is second death where body and soul can be destroyed. It does not necessary mean that anyone lives and suffers there eternally.

Death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. If anyone was not found written in the book of life, he was cast into the lake of fire.
Revelation 20:12-15

And fear not them which kill the body, but are not able to kill the soul: but rather fear him which is able to destroy both soul and body in hell. Are not two sparrows sold for a farthing? and one of them shall not fall on the ground without your Father. But the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear ye not therefore, ye are of more value than many sparrows.
Matt. 10:28-31

I believe God is good. Therefore, whatever he does, it is not bad for anyone, even if we don’t yet understand how.

God gives life also for evil. Maybe we should also love all and give them a chance, even if they lose eternal life. In my opinion this life is valuable gift, even if it does not last forever. If people use the gift badly, it is sad, but doesn’t make this gift any less valuable.

And actually it is probably not reasonable to entirely reject opportunity, if there is not even 10 % chance for good things to happen. Without participation, there is 0 % chance and certain loss.
 
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timewerx

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Actually Bible doesn’t tell that people suffer eternally in hell. That is interpretation that is maybe too optimistic in some people’s point of view.

Bible tells that the fire burns forever, but hell is second death where body and soul can be destroyed. It does not necessary mean that anyone lives and suffers there eternally.

I have no solid beliefs on the matter but I'm leaning towards this. But the concept of death here might be different from what we think it would.

But that's not my concern. Even if Univeralism is true and everyone gets saved, I'll still withhold having my own babies until the environment becomes conducive enough that is if the population had dipped to below 100 million mark.

Just trying to make the Earth a nicer, easier to place to live in.

One more important reason I got is because I have quite an overprotective instinct. I get too paranoid that someone might get hurt and if it comes to that point, I sometimes overreact. The generally negative state of our world is not helping to alleviate my fears.
 
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1213

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...Even if Univeralism is true and everyone gets saved,...

In Biblical point of view all will not be saved. Sorry if you understood that I tried to say so. Eternal life is according to the Bible for righteous and not all are righteous. But it does not mean then that some will live and suffer eternally.

...I'll still withhold having my own babies until the environment becomes conducive enough that is if the population had dipped to below 100 million mark...

That will not help, if people don’t have love. And if people would have love, we could live well, even if the population would be much greater.

I hope you can get over your fears, because fear leads to evil things.

Fear is the path to the dark side. Fear leads to anger. Anger leads to hate. Hate leads to suffering.
Yoda

There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear has punishment. He who fears is not made perfect in love.
1 John 4:18

"Therefore I tell you, don't be anxious for your life, what you will eat, nor yet for your body, what you will wear. Life is more than food, and the body is more than clothing. Consider the ravens: they don't sow, they don't reap, they have no warehouse or barn, and God feeds them. How much more valuable are you than birds! Which of you by being anxious can add a cubit to his height? If then you aren't able to do even the least things, why are you anxious about the rest? Consider the lilies, how they grow. They don't toil, neither do they spin; yet I tell you, even Solomon in all his glory was not arrayed like one of these. But if this is how God clothes the grass in the field, which today exists, and tomorrow is cast into the oven, how much more will he clothe you, O you of little faith? Don't seek what you will eat or what you will drink; neither be anxious. For the nations of the world seek after all of these things, but your Father knows that you need these things. But seek God's Kingdom, and all these things will be added to you.
Luke 12:22-31

The amount of fear in this world at the moment is huge and unfortunately it probably leads to massive suffering.
 
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Qraz

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I agree when you say that the interpretation saying hell doesn't exist is too optimistic for some peoples point of view.
Mainly because I feel it exists.


Here is a source citing verses confirming that hell exists, that those not saved by Christ end up there, and verses describing it.

https://bible.org/article/what-bible-says-about-hell



Of course anything can be interpreted differently if you twist it a bit, but I've always been one to read and interpret things at face value. I don't make assumptions that God handles things a certain way because of his loving nature. As far as I'm concerned, judgement after death is something that has multiple outcomes, and one outcome being negative is confirmed.

For the record, it would be comforting knowing hell didn't exist, but it's probably my largest motivation to stay in the faith at this given time.
 
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timewerx

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That will not help, if people don’t have love. And if people would have love, we could live well, even if the population would be much greater.

That's partly true. I've experienced for long periods of time sharing a small bedroom with three other people, sharing a single bathroom with 18 other people, taking turns to take a bath, brush your teeth, or even wash your clothes.

It was rough, never been in such situation before, it's almost like getting into prison. I suffered from sleep deprivation due to all the people's noise like taking calls 3 am in the morning, listening loudly to video or music. The bathroom stinks. If I try to lay some ground rules in the most peaceful manner, it ends up in a heated argument.

As if coming very tried from work after hours of emotional abuse as a secretary, you come home and you still can't relax.

It's a taste of what overpopulation is. I'm a citizen of a poor nation, richer nations exploit us, shove us together like sardines. The powers in this world treats us like animals, without the same rights as they are and it's painful.

One day, even the richer nations will experience it too if we don't do anything about our population. YOu will not like it, your descendants definitely won't.


Anyway, it would have been MUCH NICER if people in these very tight conditions actually showed respect to one another, followed established house rules instead of causing the misery of others.

Even if we do reach such stage, our much loving overpopulated world will still have to come to terms with our finite resources and not creating too much environmental stresses to other creatures because they deserve love too!

Eventually, a loving world will reach the same conclusion as I did, regulate births to control population to achieve more sustainable levels that is less competitive (less stressful) for everyone, including for other living creatures.

True love strives for sound knowledge so that we don't unintention hurt each other or to simply find an easier and nicer way to live.
 
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AceHero

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Proper density has its place, but our planet just cannot handle 7 billion people, or even far fewer than that. We might actually need to reduce the global population by half or more in order for humans to live somewhat comfortable lives in the future (though not necessarily on par with the average high-consuming middle class American).

So I'll do my part.
If all people in the world keep to just 1 child per couple, we could reduce the population to just 1 billion in the next 100 years. And to just 100 million, 200 years from now. In reality, it could actually take place a lot sooner, even possibly dip to just 100 million population in just 100 years since not everyone have child of their own and other factors like many other factors which increase mortality.

"One or none," as one of my professors once said.
 
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timewerx

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"One or none," as one of my professors once said.

You got a brilliant professor! ;) (I don't mean I'm brilliant too! haha)

It's a simple but brilliant solution but problem is implementation. The biggest change required to make this happen is how we make money - economy. The reducing population will most certainly reduce revenue (a lot!!).

I'm telling you, owners of big business will be the first and last to resist this birth control project (to reduce global human population).

They especially need the huge numbers of low-wage workers for them - who are also buying stuff...

Do you think cheap robots are good substitutes?? NO, because robots never buy anything! And that is bad for the big business owners... Can't we just make self-maintaining, self-regulating robots to serve us for free? NO, because it will rob the big businesses of their power. Their power through money.

Sorry for giving you an unorthodox lesson in economy and money and how really bad it is and forcing humanity to collectively behave like a cancer or a virus upon this planet. If you love money, you hate God, that's how Jesus put it.
 
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1213

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... I suffered from sleep deprivation due to all the people's noise like taking calls 3 am in the morning, listening loudly to video or music. The bathroom stinks. If I try to lay some ground rules in the most peaceful manner, it ends up in a heated argument...

That shows well what it means when people don’t have love and care about others.

...richer nations exploit us,...

That is wery sad in many ways. And probably that will backfire for them.

One day, even the richer nations will experience it too if we don't do anything about our population. ...

They will probably get “punishment” before that happens.

... easier and nicer way to live.

And it is easier, because then people don’t have to care as much and I think that is evil reason.
 
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timewerx

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That is wery sad in many ways. And probably that will backfire for them.

I believe in reincarnation.

One day I'll be born rich and then born poor, by God's grace, I will remember and have the courage to do what is right.

I can't be so hard on the rich and strong for I might succumb to the same temptations they had, have I been in their situation.

The rich should stop exploiting the poor, for one day, you'll be born in their situation and you'll wish, you had been a lot nicer to the poor so being poor won't be so bad.

This Universe is hell you know. There is no escape until you have become like Christ.
 
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Simon Peter

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Read this
Http://spiritsword.org/devotional/119.html


It addresses this question.






Usually I include TLDR's for articles I post online, but I would ask that if you respond to this post, that you read everything first.

Hello, I would like to introduce a topic that has been bothering me for several years. Before I begin, I would like to give a little disclaimer that what I'm about to say is pretty depressing matter, at least for me anyway.

A bit about me before I start rambling on about something you may or may not agree with. For starters, I am a full blown pessimist. Everyone knows that one guy where the skies are always gray, the glass is always half empty, and the grass is always greener on the other side. Unfortunately, that's always been me as far as I can remember. Next, I have to mention I am a christian, but unfortunately, a glaring side effect of being negative about everything is massive skepticism. For example, I'm the guy who can't decide whether to be encouraged or discouraged by the fact that people in the bible who saw Jesus perform miracles with their own eyes still can't see the truth, and consequently turn away. Is it encouraging in that the people in the bible are more like us than we thought, or discouraging in that if they couldn't see it, how could I possibly see it? Anyway, that's a topic for another time. What I'm trying to say is that what I'm dealing with may only be from my point of view, and you may not relate -- and that's completely ok.

Alright, now for the question I've asked countless times over the years. Why would I ever want to have children? Now you may see this as a silly question. I however take this to a whole new level of serious. When you decide to have kids, you are bringing in another human being into the world. With that being said, that person is going to have a soul, and assuming they live up to the age of understanding, they will be judged by God when they die. Nobody is perfect. You hear about people who are brought up in a christian home, loved immensely and receive the best support possible in their walk of faith who STILL manage to turn away and die unsaved. This remains a sad result of the free will we have been given. Now my question is this. If there is the SLIGHTEST chance, even a 1/1,000,000th of a chance that your child will die before they are saved in their lifetime, why would you risk it? Nobody deserves being put on a playing field (or so to speak) where there is even an astronomically small chance of going to hell, where suffering is infinite and eternal. I often sit and think about this topic, and many-a-times I've come to the conclusion that if I were a miscarriage it would have been a whole lot easier than having to live every day worried about whether you'll be saved the moment of your death. I often wish I was never born, never given the slightest chance of not finding the faith and suffering eternally. I never want to have to ultimate accountability, the ultimate responsibility, the ultimate weight on my chest knowing that my own kid, brought into the world by me is at a chance of not finding the light for them-self, and ending up in Hell. Have you ever read about how terrible hell is? It's just not worth the chance that they could slip up within their lifetime. Nobody deserves hell. Nobody. I've always heard that if we could all be dangled over hell for a second, everyone would believe. By now you've probably noticed how I focus so intently on worse case scenarios and negativity. But you can't deny that when you bring a child into the world, your putting them at a very real risk of not being saved. Some people are motivated into action with faith with their eye on the prize of heaven. I'm motivated into faith so I don't go to hell.

I would like to mention a few arguments that I've heard in response to this. Some people have mentioned that God can urge you to have children. I believe that this is %100 true. But being my skeptic self, assuming we all are given free will, still puts that child into a risk of hell. In short, if they end up in hell, who's decision was it really if God knows what decisions we're going to make before we make them? Had you just not given birth to someone initially, there wouldn't be a risk. Another argument I've heard is that the bible says in Genesis 1:28: “Be fruitful and multiply and fill the earth and subdue it and have dominion over the fish of the sea and over the birds of the heavens and over every living thing that moves on the earth.” I understand that we've been commanded to multiply in a sense, but my original point still stands.

For the record, I have asked my Pastor and two elders about this issue. Their responses were the following:

My Pastor told me to look at God the way the Hebrews did, taking god for each individual part of what he is and accepting it as more of a bundle, instead of the way the Greeks think, by trying to mix everything together and observing as a whole, looking at contradicting features and denying it altogether. Unfortunately, looking at it differently didn't remove the problem for me.
One Elder told me that everything has risk, and pretty much dismissed my point.
The other Elder I asked told me he would try to find me an answer, and I heard back from him a few days later, when he told me straight up "I don't have a good answer for that."

Sometimes I wish I would have never been created and given free will. I would have been much happier, after all obliviousness is bliss. If I could do anything, ANYTHING to insure that I would have blind faith till the day I die, I would do it in a heartbeat. But because that's not how it works, I think daily how much easier miscarriages or young children who die in freak accidents have it, with straight road to heaven (at least I hope). Here I am, stuck in a constant loop where I can't kill myself otherwise it wouldn't insure heaven, and constantly worried about whether or not I'll be in the faith the moment I pass. I could go on forever complaining about the misery of everyday life but for once I'm trying my hardest to see the bright side.

Thanks for reading, feel free to reply however you would like. I would consider myself a friendly guy, but If you could please keep the topic off me, I would appreciate it. By the way, just because my Pastor and two Elders didn't have an answer for me, I'm by no means saying you guys can't answer my question. I'm willing to take any wisdom or advice I can get regarding scripture around this topic.
 
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sunnypseudo

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I believe in reincarnation.

One day I'll be born rich and then born poor, by God's grace, I will remember and have the courage to do what is right.

OK um.. you claim to believe in Christ? God the Christian God, right? Do you follow or read the Bible at all? I've read several of your responses and each one disturbs me more than the last. If you are what you claim to be there is no support for reincarnation and everyone will be held accountable at the great white throne judgment.

Second, you have been, summed up calling the human race parasites on this earth. You do know we were given dominion, right? Not only dominion but Jesus himself said that if birds don't fret for where to sleep or what to eat, and we are greater, then why should we be afraid of not being provided for? Granted you have to walk in faith and follow what he wants. Now going back to over population and the wicked things like human trafficking, those things have been in existence long before now. Long, long, long before. Well before anyone could say we had over population issues. Slavery in general has been wide across many cultures for many years.

Also look at the beginning of Genesis, no death of any living creature was intended. Not animal nor human. But procreation was of course was intended. What would contain and sustain this life but this earth? God creates great minds to make great headway in conservation, rehibilitation, growth, and finding resources from virtually nothing. Progress is not a bad thing. Unfortunately since the fall of man from God in the garden of Eden, the wickedness and greed of man knows no bounds. Any discovery or development that can be positive greed can turn for wickedness and no one has had the scruples to stand up against it yet, because we are weak and feeble creatures.

When it comes to areas of the world with dense population and a tyrannical government, they wouldn't letc those people move on or out anyways because the whole point of tyranny is more people to keep absolute power over. This too ia nothing new. Look at the Israelites in Egypt during the time of Moses.

Here we have a horrible period of slavery, where a government is killing babies of male gender, but yet one woman moves in faith and follows God, fully, and the man that God will use to deliver the nation of Israel is saved.

Now there is some food for thought. I know our world is in decline, but it's supposed to be. It sucks, and we are supposed to fight against the evils of this world and be a light in the darkness, but our fight is not against flesh and blood but against principalities and powers. In other words, it's a spiritual fight, not a fight the way you have been describing. I think it is noble to want to repair the earth, to be the good steward that we all should be, but careful the direction you choose to do that.
 
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timewerx

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OK um.. you claim to believe in Christ? God the Christian God, right? Do you follow or read the Bible at all? I've read several of your responses and each one disturbs me more than the last. If you are what you claim to be there is no support for reincarnation and everyone will be held accountable at the great white throne judgment.

You're talking about Universal Salvation. Reincarnation is a different matter. It does have an ending. The extinction of the human race for example, might end it. Even our Universe has an ending.

Thus, at some point, everyone will be judged.



Not only dominion but Jesus himself said that if birds don't fret for where to sleep or what to eat, and we are greater, then why should we be afraid of not being provided for?

But Jesus also said, "if anyone wishes to come after me, he must deny himself...."

Self-denial or the the more scientific terminology "austerity" is a recent finding by reputable scientists as a key to sustainable living. In other words, to sustain LIFE. In John 6, Jesus also said, that His words are full of spirit and LIFE. Coincidence? Or Jesus was simply telling us the right course of action that is accurate even in the scientific context?? Should we actually believe that resources can come out of thin air in huge quantities per day......or that we should use our heads and plan ahead. I think the latter is what Jesus would have expected from us.

Also when Jesus said that we will have life in abundance, it doesn't mean well the stuff of the worldly in abundance too. That's we'll have better cars, better houses than what worldly people got. No, that's not what Jesus meant for it obviously contradicts the notion of self-denial. Look how stupid someone will look to claim they are denying themselves and yet own three expensive cars and a large, expensive house and lots of kids.
 
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