Preterist say I come quickly 70AD, Hmmmmmm!

parousia70 · Jul 19, 2015

Barraco said:
We know that the woman is Rome, the city that ruled over the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:18) at the time the Apocalypse was written........The city is Rome. There was no other city that ruled over the kings of the earth that fits within the context of the book of Revelation.

Rather, that Woman/City was Jerusalem.
Earthly Jerusalem, by Divine right and calling, was the preeminent city among all nations. The Hebrew/Biblical understanding of Jerusalem is that she is the "Chief of the nations" (Jeremiah 31:7; Ez 5:5), the Queen city of the earth (Lam 1:1/Rev 18:7). She, by Divine right and covenant, was appointed as the head of all nations (Deut 26:19; Deut 15:6; Deut 28:1,10-13), and the gentile kings recognized God's dwelling was at Jerusalem with the Hebrews (1 Ki 10:24; Luke 11:31; Ezra 1:2; Dan 2:47, 3:28-29, 4:1-3, 4:17, 4:34-37; Ezra 1; Ezra 4-7; Ezra 7:15,23).

The Governor of all nations (Ps. 22:28) lived in Jerusalem in his House (Ez 7:15,23), and all the kingdom, power and might over earth was His (1 Chron 29:11-12). Indeed, all kings receive their power to rule from that Divine King (Rom 13:1-2,6; John 19:11; 1 Pet 2:13-14,17; Ez 1:2; Dan 1:1-2; Dan 2:20-21; Dan 2:37-38; Dan 2:47, Dan 3:28-29; Dan 4:1-3,17,34-37.).

Yet, Jerusalem was also famous for becoming The Harlot City -- an unfaithful spouse to her King (Isa 1:21; Jer 3:6-10; Ez 16:37-39). She had become "drunk with the blood of the saints" (Rev 17:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16) as Christ had prophesied she would (Mt 23:33-37; Lk 11:50-51).

Sadly, the "great city," Jerusalem (Rev 11:8), had fallen, and had become the habitation of demons and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird (Rev 18:2). The Queen City Jerusalem (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1), which had been great among the nations (Lam 1:1), had become a widow (Rev 18:7/Lam1:1). And She, having become an unfaithful Harlot to God, was thus "burned with fire" (Rev 18:8/17:16) as her covenant law demanded for her (Lev 21:9). The blood of all the apostles and prophets who she famously killed (Matt 23:33-36; Matt 21:34-39; Lk 13:33; Acts 7:52; 1 Thess 2:15-16; Lk 11:47; Neh 9:26; 1 Ki 19:14) was avenged upon her (Matt 23:33-37; Rev 16:6; Rev 18:20,24; 1 Thess 2:15-16).

Berean777 · Jul 19, 2015

A New World said:
Revelation 22:3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;

4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.

I believe the curse in verse three is related to the Law. Those who were under the Law were under a curse and separated from the presence of God.

If you research the word translated "face," prosōpon, it can also mean "presence."

My understanding is that believers have been reconciled to God, live under the New Covenant in His presence, and are under His authority (His name will be on their foreheads).

The author points to a future Garden of Eden symbolism, where the believers would be in the same position as Adam and Eve were in the Garden of Eden. The author tries to point out that after all the conflicts arising from accusations from the devil, the breach is completely fixed and the scene reverts to the Garden of Eden, with all manner of fruits. It is like a movie that starts from the Garden and ends with the Garden being restored to its original meaning to the inhabitants. This can never imply a spiritual delusional garden without realising its fruits, rather it must be experientially real tangible garden that is on par with the original garden, now even better dressed and not requiring the light from the natural sun.

You can not have a restored garden in a person's mind while they are living in desolated dungeon like the world we live in. A person would have to be out of their rockers to even think that this place is the garden that the author is alluding. It would be right up there with the cult of Scientology where they see life and disease in general not real but only a state of mind.

Sorry if this world was the garden then the curses continue to fall upon humanity and be witnessed by humanity.

Ranting · Jul 19, 2015

Pret> thinking is just kick it to the curb and let it run into the sewer.

Berean777 · Jul 19, 2015

A New World said:
Revelation 22:3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;

4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.

I believe the curse in verse three is related to the Law. Those who were under the Law were under a curse and separated from the presence of God.

If you research the word translated "face," prosōpon, it can also mean "presence."

My understanding is that believers have been reconciled to God, live under the New Covenant in His presence, and are under His authority (His name will be on their foreheads).

If you read the verse in proper with the true meaning of the word in context to the Garden of Eden, you will discern that it is not talking about the curse of the mosaic law, but the originating curse that was instrumented upon Adam and Eve and the rest of the human family when the serpent beguiled Eve and made her eat of the forbidden fruit of the garden.

Let us look at the morphological analysis of the word in context to the garden:

Part of Speech: Noun (name of place that originated the sin, ie. Garden of Eden)
Case: Nominative. (Though shalt not eat from the forbidden tree)
Number: Singular. (Arising from one event alluding to the originating curse)
Gender: Neuter. (It is not gender based but is applied to all)

Looking at the word in the Greek:

2596 (intensive) and 331; an imprecation:--curse.
Arising from the Greek word Katanathema which is derivation of the word anathema.

God decreed an anathema upon Adam and all his human family.

Scripture points to death arising from the anathema upon One man Adam who brought the curse in singular upon his whole human family. It came from the normative case where he ate from the forbidden tree and this single curse alone condemned all of humanity because of the actions of one man. The mosaic law throughout the old covenant and new covenant is not singular but a plural, that is curses. The curses of the law are many as the commandments and ordinances that are required to be obeyed are many.

The word curses in Rev 22:3 is a singular curse pointing directly at the originating sin, where God said:

Genesis 3:17
And unto Adam he said, Because thou hast hearkened unto the voice of thy wife, and hast eaten of the tree, of which I commanded thee, saying, Thou shalt not eat of it: cursed is the ground for thy sake; in sorrow shalt thou eat of it all the days of thy life;

The same word cursed in Hebrew is used to point to an anathema arising from a singular event related to the noun and the normative which is exclusive of gender because it is a curse up all the human family.

Aw-rar is to execrate which means to express great loathing, therefore the same as the Greek word Katanathema which means anathema.

Berean777 · Jul 19, 2015

precepts said:
Daniel gives the history of the only beast kingdoms to rule over Shalem to the end of time, Babylon, Persia/Mede, Greece, and Rome - though not mentioned by name. This is what proves Revelation's beasts cannot be nations other than the ones Daniel listed. And by the time of Christ and John they were in the 4th and 5th beast kingdom that lasts until the end of time, historically proven to be Rome. It is the last beast kingdom, the 4th and 5th beast kingdoms in Daniel; thus the two beasts/kingdoms in Revelation.

There are no more beast kingdoms after Rome. Revelation's 2 beast kingdoms is Rome, Daniel's 4th and 5th beast kingdoms, Rome.

You are mixing up the fact these historical kingdoms had kings. They were in the days of the 4th beast kingdom of Rome. So, 5 of her kings were fallen - as stated in the verse, kings, not kingdoms.

The fifth Roman king/horn was Nero whose death sparked the Roman yr of 4 emperors, the reason why one is to come and to continue a short space, the Beast is the 8th. They were kings, not kingdoms.

Which has nothing to do with the fact Rome is the 4th and final beast kingdom, the kingdom that conquered Greece in the succession of the nations Daniel listed, the kingdom ruling during Christ and John's time.

My bad, but they are still kings: the 8th and 11th Roman kings/horns. Even though the kingdoms existed, as with Daniel's 4 beast being 4 kings, prophecy is pointing to ruling kings of the empires like Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus and Darius, Alexander and his 4 generals, etc, continuing into Rome's kings.

There are only 4 to 5 beast kingdoms.

How in the world is Daniel's beasts B.C. when the 4th beast follows Greece who where conquered by Rome in 24bc? Rome is the 4th and last beast kingdom that lasts until the end.

You're not that naive. Who is Dan 7's 4th beast and 5th beast kingdom of iron and clay feet?

Show me where in Revelation the False Prophet isn't the 2nd beast. The 11th horn/king in Dan 7:11 is not the Beast; he is the False Prophet. So, which part of Dan 7:11 being Rev 19:20 don't you comprehend?

You are adding to scripture. Show me a shred of evidence in scripture that points to the false prophet being a levitical religious system. There's none! Scripture, from Daniel to Revelation, points to kings within the beast kingdoms as fallen angels. You have yet to acknowledge the fact. They are kings ruling during their respective beast kingdoms, and Rome is the final beast kingdom to rule after Greece. If there were more, Daniel would of listed them. His prophesy is for Israel's history from Babylon to the end of time. It is not the history from Babylon to Daniel, and then from John to the end of time, but from Babylon to the end of time. Rome is Revelation's two beasts and the 4th and 5th beast kingdoms in Daniel.

Reading Comprehension is denominational Christianities biggest problem. "There," - in the city of Rome - 5 are fallen, 1 is, and 1 is to come and continue a short space, which is seven kings. How can the Beast be the 7th king when the Beast doesn't continue for a short space being the 8th? The verse says he is of the 7, meaning he follows them in sequence, proving they are the 10 kings/horns on Revelation's 1st beast and on Dan 7's 4th beast, because Dan 7:11's 11th horn is the False Prophet, the 2nd beast in Revelation, Revelation's 10th horn/king that receives power from the Beast because the Beast doesn't give power to himself among the 10 kings he gives power to during the hour. He gives power to the 11th horn, the 2nd beast in Revelation as the 10th king, 11 chronological kings minus the 8th.

You're lacking understanding.

There are only 4 to 5 beast kingdoms. Rome is the 4th and last beast kingdom that lasts until the end of time.

The same symbolism is used but pertaining to different beasts; BC and AD. Great Babylon is known by the author yet mystery Babylon is unknown. The ten Kings of mystery Babylon have had no Kingdom as such but receive power with the beast for a short time. Those ten kingdoms you mentioned if the BC era, where three were plucked out had kingdoms before and even after Rome was dissolved, whereby the seven continued to be kingdoms. However the ten Kings of the mystery revived first beast had no Kingdom and their Kingdom does not continue after the beast is annihilated in the lake of fire for the second time.

The second beast is Christ like meaning it has a religious aspect to it and he is the one that gives life to the revived first beast. This is outside of the scope of John in relation to past or present events. John said that he marvelled and wonder after the revived first beast, because he found it to be a strange animal that he had not historically learnt about or come across and it required an angel to spell it out for him.

Barraco · Jul 19, 2015

I think the assertions to say that Babylon is Jeruslem is not in keeping with Scripture. Rather it is out of context. Context is key, brothers and sisters!

You can't take a passage out of context, especially when interpreting. Babylon certainly is not Jerusalem!

Also, Revelation 17 never says that the woman was a bride to God. The passages used were fornications, whoring, sexual immorality. It is talking about idolatry and nothing else. Babylon never belonged to God.

If you go outside of context, you can make anything work. Within context, Babylon was Rome at the time of writing. Yes, it does matter. Historical and literary context are necessary keys in interpreting Scripture.

Berean777 · Jul 19, 2015

Barraco said:
I think the assertions to say that Babylon is Jeruslem is not in keeping with Scripture. Rather it is out of context. Context is key, brothers and sisters!

You can't take a passage out of context, especially when interpreting. Babylon certainly is not Jerusalem!

Also, Revelation 17 never says that the woman was a bride to God. The passages used were fornications, whoring, sexual immorality. It is talking about idolatry and nothing else. Babylon never belonged to God.

If you go outside of context, you can make anything work. Within context, Babylon was Rome at the time of writing. Yes, it does matter. Historical and literary context are necessary keys in interpreting Scripture.

Scripture points to a women as being a bride of someone. A women in the context of the Hebrew writer always portrays her as belonging to a husband. Rome can't be classified as a wife because she had no husband that directed Rome. You see an illegitimate wife must follow her head, that is her beastly husband as her superior or the legitimate wife must follow God as her husband, within the context of true worship. Scripture is not a historical narrative devoid of the question of worship. Anthropology plays a strong part of symbols used in the bible.

Therefore worship must be the context of a faithful wife to that of a disobedient whorish wife who serves other masters as her head, ie. Earthly Kings.

Rome doesn't fit within the context of worship to the God of Abraham and doesn't fit the context of having a superior husband (other beastly nations) above her that she takes orders from as a wife/women.

Barraco · Jul 19, 2015

Berean777 said:
Scripture points to a women as being a bride of someone.

A women in the context of the Hebrew writer always portrays her as belonging to a husband. Rome can't be classified as a wife because she had no husband that directed Rome. You see an illegitimate wife must follow her head, that is her beastly husband as her superior or the legitimate wife must follow God as her husband, within the context of true worship. Scripture is not a historical narrative devoid of the question of worship. Anthropology plays a strong part of symbols used in the bible.

Therefore worship must be the context of a faithful wife to that of a disobedient whorish wife who serves other masters as her head, ie. Earthly Kings.

Rome doesn't fit within the context of worship to the God of Abraham and doesn't fit the context of having a superior husband (other beastly nations) above her that she takes orders from as a wife/women.

I think you are taking a little bit of liberty with your own interpretations here. Does Scripture say that all women are brides? What about Rahab the prostitute? The woman is said to commit fornication, or whoredom, with many kings. The context of the chapter is that such sexual immorality was used to symbolize idolatry toward the kings of the earth.

Historical Context: The Apocalypse was written to believers in Asia Minor. Jerusalem at this time had no significant role in the messages written to them.

Literary Context: Revelation 17 comes after a lengthy description of people worshiping a beast (Revelation 13). The people of the earth went mad because of the cult of Roma, persecuting Christians for not worshiping Caesar, making Rome drunk with the blood of the saints that was shed in Asia Minor.

Also, I'm not a historicist. I don't believe the book of Revelation to be a true prophetic work. I do, however, believe that Jesus will return once the gospel has been preached to all nations (Matthew 24:14). That would place me as a partial preterist (eschatology does not consist solely of the book of Revelation).

Straightshot · Jul 19, 2015

"I don't believe the book of Revelation to be a true prophetic work."

So do you refute the Lord Himself? .... if so, it is easy for me to see why you have a faulty view of the Lord and His prophets [2 Peter 1:16-21]

Revelation
1:1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him, to shew unto his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel unto his servant John:

1:2 Who bare record of the word of God, and of the testimony of Jesus Christ, and of all things that he saw.

1:3 Blessed is he that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time is at hand.

22:18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

22:19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

precepts · Jul 19, 2015

Berean777 said:
The same symbolism is used but pertaining to different beasts; BC and AD.

Dan 7:11is BC?

Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

And is this not Rev 19:20?

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

So, how is Dan 7's 4th beast BC if it's eleventh horn is the horn that's given to the flame (lake of fire) in Dan 7:11?

Berean777 said:
Great Babylon is known by the author yet mystery Babylon is unknown.

Mystery Babylon isn't referring to anything other than Rome. The beast kingdoms reigned in chronological order. You're making excuses, mixing apples with oranges.

Berean777 said:
The ten Kings of mystery Babylon have had no Kingdom as such but receive power with the beast for a short time.

But in Dan 7 it mentions thrones being cast down when the "Ancient of days arrives and sets up his throne. Are these not the thrones referenced in Revelation since the 11th horn is given to the flame in Dan 7:11?

Dan 7:9 I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire.
Dan 7:10 A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened.
Dan 7:11 I beheld then because of the voice of the great words which the horn spake: I beheld even till the beast was slain, and his body destroyed, and given to the burning flame.

Where else in scripture are *books opened" when someone is given to the flame?

In the very next chapter of Revelation:

Rev 19:20 And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
+++++++++++++
Rev 20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

Berean777 said:
Those ten kingdoms you mentioned if the BC era, where three were plucked out had kingdoms before and even after Rome was dissolved, whereby the seven continued to be kingdoms.

You are continuing to add to scripture. The 7 fallen are not kingdoms; the verse specifically states they are kings, "there" in the city built on 7 of 10 hills. The 10 horns in Dan 7's 4th beast are also specifically identified as kings too. There being only 4 beast kingdoms in Daniel, it is not Babylon, Persia/Mede, Greece, Rome, and then the 10 horns. Rome is the 4th beast with the ten horns; the ten horns are definitely defined as kings. In fact, the 11th horn is said to have eyes like a man, similar to Revelation's account of a certain 8th horn having a number of a man.

Dan 7:17 These great beasts, which are four, are four kings, which shall arise out of the earth.

These 4 kings/beast are fallen angels.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Exactly what I have been telling you. The 4th beast lasts until the end, for "a time and times and the dividing of time," and that the 10 horns are kings, not kingdoms. Dan 7 is Revelation's account of Christ possessing the heaven kingdom, and there are no other beast after Rome. Revelations two beasts is Rome. The "False Prophet," the Dan 7's 11th horn, is Revelation's 2nd beast. He's also numbered the 10th of the 10 kings in Revelation, that gets power one hour with the Beast, because the Beast doesn't give himself power as one of the ten. The 2nd beast in Revelation (Dan 7's 11th horn) becomes the 10th king since he is Rome's 11th king, minus the Beast, the 8th king.

Berean777 said:
However the ten Kings of the mystery revived first beast had no Kingdom and their Kingdom does not continue after the beast is annihilated in the lake of fire for the second time.

It's a parable! How many kings do you know of that reign as kings for only one hour together? None. They attacked heaven by the power of the Beast and Satan. The wars occurred in heaven, starting with when Satan and his angels were cast out in Genesis.

Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
Isa 14:13 For thou hast said in thine heart, I will ascend into heaven, I will exalt my throne above the stars of God: I will sit also upon the mount of the congregation, in the sides of the north:
Isa 14:14 I will ascend above the heights of the clouds; I will be like the most High.
Isa 14:15 Yet thou shalt be brought down to hell, to the sides of the pit.

This prophecy was dedicated to the "King of Babylon":

Isa 14:4 That thou shalt take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Isa 14:9 Hell from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming: it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from their thrones all the kings of the nations.

When and where is Satan cast down into a "pit" when the "King of Babylon" is punished with the raised up kings of the earth?

Rev 19:11 And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
Rev 19:12 His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
Rev 19:13 And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
Rev 19:14 And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
++++++++++++++++++++++++++
Rev 19:19 And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.

I added the 4 previous verses for context. This is the 2nd heavenly war for the heavenly kingdom.

Berean777 said:
The second beast is Christ like meaning it has a religious aspect to it and he is the one that gives life to the revived first beast.

You need to pay more attention to what the word says. He is the false prophet, yes. But he doesn't give life to the Beast. He gives life to the statue/image of the Beast. He makes an image of the Beast, the scriptural 8th Roman emperor Vespasian.

Berean777 said:
This is outside of the scope of John in relation to past or present events. John said that he marvelled and wonder after the revived first beast, because he found it to be a strange animal that he had not historically learnt about or come across and it required an angel to spell it out for him.

John said that?

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

A word to the wise:

Luk 12:1 In the mean time, when there were gathered together an innumerable multitude of people, insomuch that they trode one upon another, he began to say unto his disciples first of all, Beware ye of the leaven of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy.

BEWARE!

Berean777 · Jul 19, 2015

Barraco said:
I think you are taking a little bit of liberty with your own interpretations here. Does Scripture say that all women are brides? What about Rahab the prostitute? The woman is said to commit fornication, or whoredom, with many kings. The context of the chapter is that such sexual immorality was used to symbolize idolatry toward the kings of the earth.

Historical Context: The Apocalypse was written to believers in Asia Minor. Jerusalem at this time had no significant role in the messages written to them.

Literary Context: Revelation 17 comes after a lengthy description of people worshiping a beast (Revelation 13). The people of the earth went mad because of the cult of Roma, persecuting Christians for not worshiping Caesar, making Rome drunk with the blood of the saints that was shed in Asia Minor.

Also, I'm not a historicist. I don't believe the book of Revelation to be a true prophetic work. I do, however, believe that Jesus will return once the gospel has been preached to all nations (Matthew 24:14). That would place me as a partial preterist (eschatology does not consist solely of the book of Revelation).

I must recount that it was you in post 52 and 55, that brought up Rev 17:3 and now on the following breathe your discounting it as being a true prophetic work.

So which one is it a prophet book that is reason to why you posted or it is not, in which I should totally not consider your arguments because it is self defeating to even speak of Rev 17:3 if you don't believe it to be a true prophetic work.

I am at odds to why I am being presented with a complete flip flop. Should I no longer entertain your comments when you are referencing Revelation? I don't know, this is very strange.

In short at least I can clear up your confusion in regards to my previous post to answer your statement:

Does Scripture say that all women are brides? What about Rahab the prostitute?

Yes to the first question. And to the second question regarding Rehab; her story goes from that of prostituing herself with many Kings to then finally giving herself to the one true God of Abraham depicted by her final actions of being loyal to him whilst denying the Kings that she once committed whoredoms with.

In a way Rehab was rehabilitated from her sins to follow the instructions of the God of Abraham when it counted most, that's all. So yes scripture says that all women must have a head to direct them, such as a husband.

A New World · Jul 19, 2015

Barraco said:
Interesting. Notice that the chapter does not talk about adultery. It talks about sexual immorality. If you let the chapter do the talking without the 2,000 years of theology we have come to accept as normative, you may see that the chapter is focused on something particular.

The city is Rome. There was no other city that ruled over the kings of the earth that fits within the context of the book of Revelation. Notice also that, as late as the Diocletian persecution from 303-c.313 CE, Asia Minor had always persecuted the saints more. Historians detailed also that, as earlier as Augustus' reign, the people of Asia Minor zealously sought to worship him as a god and savior. They built temples in the names of the emperors called neocorates. These extravagant temples elevated the status of these cities and brought them more funds from the city of Rome.

What was incorporated here was the cult of Roma. The Romans believed that the spirit of the goddess Roma lived in the city of Rome and that the emperor himself was the representative of Roma. So, when people in Asia Minor worshiped the emperors, they worshiped the goddess Roma as well as the city of Rome. In this way, the city of Rome committed sexual immorality with the kings of the earth and the people of Asia Minor went mad because of it.

Sexual Immorality was often the symbol used to describe idolatry in the Old Testament. Jeremiah 3 is a prime example. But if you look up sexual immorality or fornication, depending on the version you are using in YouVersion or similar program, you will see the symbolism being applied.

So sexual immorality in Revelation 17 is idolatry. The people of Asia Minor were worshiping the Roman emperors. When Christianity became popular in the provinces, people started forsaking the pagan feasts and worship. This made their cults of Roma irrelevant and robbed the city of extra funds from the capital. Like anytime when peoples' profits are jeapordized, the people began persecuting the Christians. Add this to the fact that Domitian had been betrayed and had become suspicious of everyone and you get catastrophic results. I think it is very possible that Domitian ordered tribunes to be held in his honor at the pagan feasts in each city of every Roman province to sniff out rebels and traitors. At these feasts, the proconsul and the Asiarch would send out the herald to command the worship of the emperor. A similar account can be found in the story The Martyrdom of Polycarp.

So the seven heads are not seven kingdoms. They are seven Roman Emperors that were worshiped as gods by the people of Asia Minor. These are as follows:

1. Augustus
2. Tiberius
3. Caligula
4. Claudius
5. Nero
6. Vespasian
7. Titus (whose reign only lasted two years)

Notice that I did not include Galba, Otho, and Vitellius like I would if I were interpreted the ten horns of Revelation 13's beast from the sea. These did not rule long enough for their temples to be built in Asia Minor and their cults to be established. That is where many people trip up.

Revelation 17:2 is a tricky verse, but it holds the key to interpreting everything in Revelation 17.

Both mystery Babylon and first century Jerusalem would be judged for killing the prophets:

Jesus said:
"Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city" (Mt. 23:34)

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Mt. 23:37)

"Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem (Luke 13:33)

Revelation says mystery Babylon was judged for killing the prophets:

"And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird." (Rev. 18:2)

"Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!" (Revelation 18:20)

"And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth." (Revelation 18:24)

Jesus said prophets were sent to Jerusalem. He called her "The one who kills the prophets." He also said, "It cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem."

In mystery Babylon was found the blood of the prophets. The prophets rejoiced over mystery Babylon's destruction because God had avenged them on her. There is no question mystery Babylon was first century Jerusalem.

If God sent prophets to Jerusalem, and she killed the prophets, and a prophet could not perish outside Jerusalem, and if the blood of the prophets was found in mystery Babylon, and the prophets rejoiced over her destruction, then mystery Babylon was first century Jerusalem.

Berean777 · Jul 19, 2015

A New World said:
Both mystery Babylon and first century Jerusalem would be judged for killing the prophets:

Jesus said:
"Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city" (Mt. 23:34)

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Mt. 23:37)

"Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem (Luke 13:33)

Revelation says mystery Babylon was judged for killing the prophets:

"And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird." (Rev. 18:2)

"Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!" (Revelation 18:20)

"And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth." (Revelation 18:24)

Jesus said prophets were sent to Jerusalem. He called her "The one who kills the prophets." He also said, "It cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem."

In mystery Babylon was found the blood of the prophets. The prophets rejoiced over mystery Babylon's destruction because God had avenged them on her. There is no question mystery Babylon was first century Jerusalem.

If God sent prophets to Jerusalem, and she killed the prophets, and a prophet could not perish outside Jerusalem, and if the blood of the prophets was found in mystery Babylon, and the prophets rejoiced over her destruction, then mystery Babylon was first century Jerusalem.

You do understand that Jerusalem means Jeru-Salem, Salem means peace, therefore the city of peace. You know that the church is spiritual Jerusalem, because their king is the prince of peace Christ Jesus.

Therefore mystery Babylon highlights that the second Christ like beast has instrumented murder of Christians in the same way great Babylon of Old Testament times killed its own prophets. So the New Testament prophets have been killed within mystery Babylon's walls also. How many Christians throughout the centuries have been killed by the religious institution going by the name of Christ.

In the same way the levitical religious institution killed its own prophets within its own walls ie. Institution, the Christian church institution has done likewise to its own prophets/witnesses who are also within the walls of that institution spiritual Jerusalem.

Killing of prophets and saints of Christ do not have to be bound by a geographical location on earth as a physical city and its walls thereof. Killing of prophets and saints of Christ can be done within the walls of spiritual Jerusalem that is the church.

So prophets were killed within the literal city Jerusalem in the Old Testament and prophets/witnesses of Jesus have been also killed within the spiritual city Jerusalem of the New Testament. The old was a physical city the latter is a spiritual city.

Are you saying that no Christian witness/prophet has been killed as a result of the church institution?

Barraco · Jul 19, 2015

A New World said:
Both mystery Babylon and first century Jerusalem would be judged for killing the prophets:

Jesus said:
"Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: some of them you will kill and crucify, and some of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city" (Mt. 23:34)

"O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, but you were not willing!" (Mt. 23:37)

"Nevertheless I must journey today, tomorrow, and the day following; for it cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem (Luke 13:33)

Revelation says mystery Babylon was judged for killing the prophets:

"And he cried out with a mighty voice, saying, "Fallen, fallen is Babylon the great! She has become a dwelling place of demons and a prison of every unclean spirit, and a prison of every unclean and hateful bird." (Rev. 18:2)

"Rejoice over her, O heaven, and you holy apostles and prophets, for God has avenged you on her!" (Revelation 18:20)

"And in her was found the blood of prophets and saints, and of all who were slain on the earth." (Revelation 18:24)

Jesus said prophets were sent to Jerusalem. He called her "The one who kills the prophets." He also said, "It cannot be that a prophet should perish outside of Jerusalem."

In mystery Babylon was found the blood of the prophets. The prophets rejoiced over mystery Babylon's destruction because God had avenged them on her. There is no question mystery Babylon was first century Jerusalem.

If God sent prophets to Jerusalem, and she killed the prophets, and a prophet could not perish outside Jerusalem, and if the blood of the prophets was found in mystery Babylon, and the prophets rejoiced over her destruction, then mystery Babylon was first century Jerusalem.

Not necessarily. Revelation 10 marks the beginning of a new prophecy, one aimed at the Gentiles. Revelation 11 shows this transition. Revelation 12 even shows it when it transitions from the woman (Israel, Genesis 37:9-11) to her offspring (Gentiles, Galatians 3:15-29). From Revelation 13 on, the context is largely about Gentiles. This was even reflected earlier in Revelation 7 when an Israelite remnant was sealed and a Gentile majority was coming out of tribulation (Romans 11 discusses this quite well).

Romans 2:5-9, 1 Peter 4:17, and Matthew 24:14; 25:31-46 all agree that judgment comes first to the house of Israel then to the rest of Gentiles once the gospel has been preached to all nations. If we follow this model in the book of Revelation, we see that Jerusalem gets destroyed during the sixth trumpet and Babylon (Rome) gets destroyed during the seventh plague. Therefore, it is entirely possibly (I say probable) that the judgment of Babylon is modeled after the judgment of Jerusalem. That is why, I believe, so many eschatologists are misinterpreting Babylon as Jerusalem. To the Jew first, and then the Gentile.

Barraco · Jul 19, 2015

Berean777 said:
I must recount that it was you in post 52 and 55, that brought up Rev 17:3 and now on the following breathe your discounting it as being a true prophetic work.

You mean Revelation 17:2? Yes, I am discounting. As a forgery. The author wanted it to appear as a prophetic work. So he predated it during the reign of Domitian to look like it was written during the reign of Vespasian so that his readers would believe it was authentic. It was not authentic, because Revelation 17 and 19 show the beast (the 8th head) warring against Jesus and being captured alive by Him at the battlefield. History shows that Domitian was assassinated by his freedman in his bedroom. Revelation 17 shows the Apocalypse to be a forgery.

So which one is it a prophet book that is reason to why you posted or it is not, in which I should totally not consider your arguments because it is self defeating to even speak of Rev 17:3 if you don't believe it to be a true prophetic work.

It is not self-defeating. I am interpreting the passage the way the author likely meant it to be interpreted and how the biblical audience likely originally understood it. If it is not a true prophecy, I actually feel obligated to point that out. I do not wish to undermine the value of the book. The reason it was written and the author's agenda in writing it are both totally legit.

I am at odds to why I am being presented with a complete flip flop. Should I no longer entertain your comments when you are referencing Revelation? I don't know, this is very strange.

I follow one simple rule: I try my best to interpret Scripture the way the original audience would have. Through their eyes. In their culture. With their historical backdrop. Many of the interpreters in this forum do not do that. Perhaps they hold a mystical value to the book that they think points beyond the years of the original audience. In doing so, they over look the original audience either partially or completely. In reality, their context is the key to interpreting the Apocalypse, and finding whether its words are true or forged.

In short at least I can clear up your confusion in regards to my previous post to answer your statement:

Yes to the first question. And to the second question regarding Rehab; her story goes from that of prostituing herself with many Kings to then finally giving herself to the one true God of Abraham depicted by her final actions of being loyal to him whilst denying the Kings that she once committed whoredoms with.

In a way Rehab was rehabilitated from her sins to follow the instructions of the God of Abraham when it counted most, that's all. So yes scripture says that all women must have a head to direct them, such as a husband.

I don't think that you've proven that Babylon was at a stage where she had one 'head,' though. All you are stating is that women get married at some point. That does not suggest that Babylon was married to God. That is something you are inserting into the text because it fits your eschatological understanding. The text never suggets it though. I suppose quoting Revelation 18:7 will clear this up though:

"As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so giver her a like measure of torment and mourning, since in her heart she says, 'I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see' (Rev. 18:7 NASB)."

She is a queen and not a widow. That means that she was never married, because a queen could only attain power if the king died (making her a widow) or her father had no legitimate sons to place on the throne (making her a queen). As you can seen, her father was never God and her husband was never Christ. We can rest assured that Babylon is the Mother of Prostitutes and the abominations of the earth, not a sexually promiscuous wife that joined a brothel. Babylon is most obviously Rome (Revelation 17:18).

Berean777 · Jul 19, 2015

precepts said:
Dan 7:11is BC?

Is this not Rev 19:20?

So, how is Dan 7's 4th beast BC if it's eleventh horn is the horn that's given to the flame (lake of fire) in Dan 7:11?

Mystery Babylon isn't referring to anything other than Rome. The beast kingdoms reigned in chronological order. You're making excuses, mixing apples with oranges.

But in Dan 7 it mentions thrones being cast down when the "Ancient of days arrives and sets up his throne. Are these not the thrones referenced in Revelation since the 11th horn is given to the flame in Dan 7:11?

Where else in scripture are *books opened" when someone is given to the flame?

In the very next chapter of Revelation:

You are continuing to add to scripture. The 7 fallen are not kingdoms; the verse specifically states they are kings, "there" in the city built on 7 of 10 hills. The 10 horns in Dan 7's 4th beast are also specifically identified as kings too. There being only 4 beast kingdoms in Daniel, it is not Babylon, Persia/Mede, Greece, Rome, and then the 10 horns. Rome is the 4th beast with the ten horns; the ten horns are definitely defined as kings. In fact, the 11th horn is said to have eyes like a man, similar to Revelation's account of a certain 8th horn having a number of a man.

These 4 kings/beast are fallen angels.

Exactly what I have been telling you. The 4th beast lasts until the end, for "a time and times and the dividing of time," and that the 10 horns are kings, not kingdoms. Dan 7 is Revelation's account of Christ possessing the heaven kingdom, and there are no other beast after Rome. Revelations two beasts is Rome. The "False Prophet," the Dan 7's 11th horn, is Revelation's 2nd beast. He's also numbered the 10th of the 10 kings in Revelation, that gets power one hour with the Beast, because the Beast doesn't give himself power as one of the ten. The 2nd beast in Revelation (Dan 7's 11th horn) becomes the 10th king since he is Rome's 11th king, minus the Beast, the 8th king.

It's a parable! How many kings do you know of that reign as kings for only one hour together? None. They attacked heaven by the power of the Beast and Satan. The wars occurred in heaven, starting with when Satan and his angels were cast out in Genesis.

This prophecy was dedicated to the "King of Babylon":

When and where is Satan cast down into a "pit" when the "King of Babylon" is punished with the raised up kings of the earth?

I added the 4 previous verses for context. This is the 2nd heavenly war for the heavenly kingdom.

You need to pay more attention to what the word says. He is the false prophet, yes. But he doesn't give life to the Beast. He gives life to the statue/image of the Beast. He makes an image of the Beast, the scriptural 8th Roman emperor Vespasian.

John said that?

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

A word to the wise:
BEWARE!

You have put a lot of focus on Daniel 7 and so I wanted to elaborate on my position whilst referencing Daniel 7 versus below and comparing them to Rev 19:20.

Daniel 7:12-14
As concerning the rest of the beasts, they had their dominion taken away: yet their lives were prolonged for a season and time. I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed.

This is the BC finale of the first beast when he receives the mortal wound in 70AD. Notice the rest of the beasts who took part in the Roman insurrection lost their Kingdom (Liberty) yet their lives was prolonged and continued. Daniel presents the crossroad of the event around when Christ goes to the Father to receive the everlasting Kingdom on his glorification after the cross.

Revelation 19:21
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Daniel speaks of kingdoms BC not directly related to the Jews, yet John focuses on the Jews whose remnant were slain. That is those that remained in Jerusalem in 70AD. The city was excavated to the ground, even the soil.

After this the devil is imprisoned after the first beast and the false religious prophet is destroyed along with his temple of worship. Daniel addressed his prophesy to his people, the Jews and not Rome. John focussed on the Jews of that time.

Mystery Babylon comes about at the time of the revival of the first beast by the second Christ like beast, at the time where satan is realised for the final time to make war with Christ and his seed.

The first beast comes up from the sea of people located where the cradle of civilisation is in the Middle East, symbolised by the river Euphrates. The revived first beast and women comes from a wilderness area outside of the middle Eastern Region where she now encompasses the globe which is symbolised by North, East, South and West. John is quite familiar with the original first beast and religious false prophet, yet is at a total loss in regards to the identity of the revived first beast and the second Christ like prophet beast and requires an angel to describe to him, the details. At the Gog and Magog battle satan is killed.

John had access to the Old Testament prophesies and as a Jew he could reference Daniel as you have and would have acknowledged and understood who Daniel was alluding to. Yet with this mysterious first and second beast political-religious alliance called mystery Babylon he is at a complete loss.

Now the six consecutive Kings of the first beast in revelation of John are at the conclusion of the first beast and false prophet his side kick. The seventh king is part of the new alliance when the image of the first beast is revived by a Christian second beast false prophet who positions this seventh long as the head and this sevent king has the symbol of the eighth king which implies he is raised as part of the revival of the first beast who was and was not (70AD) and yet is again at a later time beyond John's time frame predicament.

Berean777 · Jul 19, 2015

precepts said:
John said that?

Rev 17:6 And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus: and when I saw her, I wondered with great admiration.

Yes he did, and he would witness a mysterious women never before seen or known to him also killing the followers of Jesus. He wondered with great admiration because he was dumb found by this awesome spectacle that he could not compare to in his days or by his knowledge of prophesies.

Revelation 17:7
And the angel said unto me, Wherefore didst thou marvel? I will tell thee the mystery of the woman, and of the beast that carrieth her, which hath the seven heads and ten horns.

John is taken to a wilderness that is far outside of the craddle of civilisation that he knew as symbolised by the river Euphrates and he sees a beast that was and was not and yet is again. I don't recall Rome being a Kingdom and then dissolving completely and coming back again around the timeline of messiah, this is the whole point the timeline when messiah came must fit the beast that was before and after messiah and was not post messiah and will be at a future date that John can't compare to because this first and second beast are a complete mystery to him.

Berean777 · Jul 19, 2015

Barraco said:
I suppose quoting Revelation 18:7 will clear this up though:

"As she glorified herself and lived in luxury, so giver her a like measure of torment and mourning, since in her heart she says, 'I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see' (Rev. 18:7 NASB)."

She is a queen and not a widow. That means that she was never married, because a queen could only attain power if the king died (making her a widow) or her father had no legitimate sons to place on the throne (making her a queen). As you can seen, her father was never God and her husband was never Christ. We can rest assured that Babylon is the Mother of Prostitutes and the abominations of the earth, not a sexually promiscuous wife that joined a brothel. Babylon is most obviously Rome (Revelation 17:18).

I cannot believe that you have pointed this one out. Do you know what you have done?

If I provided you this verse you would have discounted it without a thought, now that you have internalised it to mean something, my task is to show you the error in your interpretation.

'I sit as a queen, I am no widow, and mourning I shall never see'

Why would she even think that she is a widow in the first place, unless God himself has charged her for being a widow, why?

Because God has abandoned her and made her desolate. Just like Jesus said to the levitical religious administration that your house is left onto you desolate.

Here she is denying the charge that God has labeled her a husbandless widow without a legitimate husband, by saying look here I am no widow for I am a queen. God is bringing the charge against her of being a widow contrary to what she thinks in her delusional mind.

Since the women was once a legitimate bride of God to then fall out of favour with him, your comparative study of Daniel to try and fit it in with great Babylon of John's Revelation has completely broken down. The identity of the harlot is an unresolvable contradiction in your eschatological interpretations.

I don't quote this verse, after all you quoted it. :comeon:

A New World · Jul 19, 2015

Berean777 said:
Are you saying that no Christian witness/prophet has been killed as a result of the church institution?

The focus of Revelation was the judgment of the harlot mystery Babylon/Old Covenant Jerusalem and the end of that covenant age. She was declared guilty of killing the prophets and had filled up the measure of her fathers sins.

In the pursuit of truth I think it's wise to say what Scripture says and not speculate by adding our own imaginations.

AlasBabylon · Jul 19, 2015

.

I've only skimmed the conversation here... but wanted to point out
that God divorced the Northern Kingdom of Israel for adultery...
and sent her away to live with her pagan lovers. So here is an
example of a sinful woman who is not a widow, but divorced.

Here is the interesting part... when God incarnate died...
she became a widow. Now God/Christ can lawfully remarry her.

.

Preterist say I come quickly 70AD, Hmmmmmm!

Livin' in yesterday's tomorrow

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Well-Known Member

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Senior Member

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Senior Member

Member

Newbie

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Member

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Senior Member

Senior Member

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Servant of Christ Jesus. Stellar Son.

Member

Mystic

Similar threads