Preterist say I come quickly 70AD, Hmmmmmm!

Winken · Jul 17, 2015

With respect to the Brethren, some posters are mixing apples and oranges, trying to come up with a genuine recipe for pumpkin pie. Set the apples and oranges aside; it's like combing the pages of an encyclopedia or dictionary for Spiritual Truth. Spend your time Rightly Dividing the Word of Truth (2 Timothy 2:15-16, KJV). Separate demands for the Nation of Hebrews and their multiple errors, from Grace through Faith for the whole of humankind. "Not by might, not by power, but by my Spirit, saith the Lord."

Read Genesis 1:1-3, John 1:1-5, 1 John 1:1-5, Hebrews 1:1-3, then set aside time to follow Paul all the way through each of his letters, Romans through Philemon. Start with his calling in Acts 9ff. Paul ministers to, cries out to, Jew and non-Jew. Ask yourself along the way: To whom is Paul speaking, specifically? Where? When? What about? Those factors change! How does he identify those who need to understand Grace through Faith? Remember: If the plain sense makes sense seek no other sense. Go with it, yielding to the Holy Spirit for the precise interpretation and application.

Put a bag clip around Romans through Philemon. Notice its thinness, compared to the rest of the entire Bible. In that "thinness" we find the Whole Armor of God.

A New World · Jul 18, 2015

Straightshot said:
"Please provide Scripture references from any of the New Testament writers that tell of far distant events not directed to their stated audiences."

Here is just one .... there are many [2 Peter 3]

Peter doesn't contradict his earlier statement that the end was near. Since this passage doesn't support your opinion I'm interested in your other references. Please provide a few.

And the Bible is one book OT and NT .... not just the NT

You throw away the gut and foundation of the scriptures as if the OT was a relic with no significance today

What makes you think I throw anything away? I realize that the promises made to Old Covenant Israel in the Old Testament were fulfilled in Christ in the New Covenant. What was once concealed in the Old Testament was revealed throughout the New Testament. Though the futurist for some reason misses it, the New Testament writers all informed their audiences that the end of the Old Covenant age was about to be, it was near, shortly and soon.

And I have to tell you that the Author and Finisher is the Lord Himself

Amen!

Be careful what you do with your theology [Revelation 22:18-18]

We all need to be careful. John included time statements in the very passage to which you refer that futurists seem to dismiss or at least not take seriously:

Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.

7 "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book."

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done."

Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

I agree that we should not add to or take away from John's words.

Don't second guess Him .... He is watching you

Correction...He is watching US!

Berean777 · Jul 18, 2015

A New World said:
Peter doesn't contradict his earlier statement that the end was near. Since this passage doesn't support your opinion I'm interested in your other references. Please provide a few.

What makes you think I throw anything away? I realize that the promises made to Old Covenant Israel in the Old Testament were fulfilled in Christ in the New Covenant. What was once concealed in the Old Testament was revealed throughout the New Testament. Though the futurist for some reason misses it, the New Testament writers all informed their audiences that the end of the Old Covenant age was about to be, it was near, shortly and soon.

Amen!

We all need to be careful. John included time statements in the very passage to which you refer that futurists seem to dismiss or at least not take seriously:

Revelation 22:6 And he said to me, "These words are faithful and true"; and the Lord, the God of the spirits of the prophets, sent His angel to show to His bond-servants the things which must soon take place.

7 "And behold, I am coming quickly. Blessed is he who heeds the words of the prophecy of this book."

Revelation 22:10 And he said to me, "Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near."

Revelation 22:12 "Behold, I am coming quickly, and My reward is with Me, to render to every man according to what he has done."

Revelation 22:20 He who testifies to these things says, "Yes, I am coming quickly." Amen. Come, Lord Jesus.

I agree that we should not add to or take away from John's words.

Correction...He is watching US!

In Rev 22:3 it says those that shall serve him shall see his face. How do you see believers seeing the face of the Lord? What is meant by face here?

Straightshot · Jul 18, 2015

"Peter doesn't contradict his earlier statement that the end was near. Since this passage doesn't support your opinion I'm interested in your other references. Please provide a few."

You missed the entire point .... Peter speaks of a future time coming that did not apply to his "immediate audience"

This "immediate audience" dogma of the preterist is perverted and used to systematically destroy the fabric of the Lord's prophetic word

So, I will not engage your request for further references .... and I know that you are not really interested, you just want to create more fodder for your false teaching adventure which I consider to be a waste of time

precepts · Jul 18, 2015

Matthew Twentyfour said:
I agree. The prophecies are still future. Nothing significant happened in the first century. All the gibberish about 70 AD is merely a big can of worms with no merit. Nice job exposing the faulty teachings of preterism.

The only persons that mention 70ad as anything are those who calculate the 70wks prophecy to be 490yrs. And from my understanding of Preterism, all that Christ prophesied about in the NT to occur in that time did occur in that time, not specifically in 70ad, but specifically "shortly" in that time. So, if you correctly interpreted his parables, you would know that he did inherit and possess his heavenly kingdom as he said that he would in that time, not sitting in limbo for the rapture 2000 yrs now waiting to get to heaven.

precepts · Jul 18, 2015

Berean777 said:
What has Dan 7:17 to do with Rev.

It says the 4 beast in Dan 7 are 4 "kings" which means each beast kingdom had a king, a man in it that was a fallen angel. Each beast kingdom was found/started by one of these king/man fallen angel. This is what defines Revelation, because, though these nations existed historically, within them are these kings that are referred to as horns.

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Berean777 said:
I see many flaws in the comparisons of the ten kings and why would God be concerned about a 1st Roman Emperor.

You're not that naive. Rome is the 4th beast.

Berean777 said:
I like your effort this far but it has an error. Can you spot it?

I will give you a clue:

The symbol of the lamb is one which is likened to being Christ like. The second beast who gives life to the revived first beast that was and is not and yet is again, has been resurrected image wise by a Christian religious system comprising of the ten kings who have yet to recieve an earthly kingdom.

Quit the narrative. The 1st beast is not lamb like, having 7 heads and 10 horns and crowns. You're confusing the False Prophet in Dan 7, the 11th horn, to be Revelation's 1st beast; but he's not. He is Revelation's 2nd beast.

Revelation's Beast, the Antichrist, is the 8th horn/king in both Dan 7's 4th beast with the 10 horns and Revelation's beast with the 7 heads and 10 horns and crowns, verified by him being the 8th among the 7 fallen kings of Rome the 4th and 5th beast kingdoms in Daniel.

Berean777 said:
The mistake that you make is failure to recognize the ascension of Christ in Daniel fulfills the old testament kingdoms whilst the Revelation of John referenced to Christ's ascension fulfills the new covenant beast.

There is only one ascension. Daniel and Revelation are referencing the same beast, Rome.

Berean777 said:
The beast of Daniel is not the beast of John, however they both reference the same symbolism and the ascension of Christ when he was brought before the ancient of days and given a Kingdom that shall not be destroyed.

So, how in the world can't the beasts be the same when the results are the same, Christ ascending after the beasts' defeat?

And since there's only one lake of fire event, Dan 7:11 is Rev 19:20, the Beast being the 8th horn, and not the 11th in Dan 7:11.

Your problem is not understanding who the 11th horn in Dan 7 is. He is the 11th horn/king in both Dan 7 and in Rev, but he's also the False Prophet, the 2nd Beast in Revelation and the 5th beast kingdom of iron and clay feet in Daniel. It is he that's noted in Dan 7:11 as being given to the flames, though the Beast (the 8th horn) isn't mentioned as in Rev 19:20.

Berean777 said:
This kingdom happened when the heavenly court consisting of the 24 elderly kingly judges sat with Christ. The court was in session.
We have same symbols portraying different beasts. The numbers mean the same but the players are different in time.

It's the same event explained by two different persons. Dan 7:9-10 and 21 is Rev 4:2's setting of God's throne in heaven, the same event of the Beast and False Prophet attacking heaven and being thrown into lake of fire resulting in Christ possessing and inheriting his everlasting kingdom with the help of God on the throne coming to assist him.

A New World · Jul 19, 2015

Straightshot said:
"Peter doesn't contradict his earlier statement that the end was near. Since this passage doesn't support your opinion I'm interested in your other references. Please provide a few."

You missed the entire point .... Peter speaks of a future time coming that did not apply to his "immediate audience"

I will continue to rely on Scripture.

Peter identified his first century audience:
1 Peter 1:1 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, To those who reside as aliens, scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, who are chosen

There's no indication that he had anyone but them in mind when he wrote:
1 Peter 1:5 who are protected by the power of God through faith for a salvation ready to be revealed in the last time.

He told THEM to be of sound judgment BECAUSE the end was near:
1 Peter 4:7 The end of all things is near; therefore, be of sound judgment and sober spirit for the purpose of prayer.

Based on the clear context we know to whom his epistle was written and of the content of his message to them. He did not indicate that he was simply writing to whom it may concern at some later time and place.

This "immediate audience" dogma of the preterist is perverted and used to systematically destroy the fabric of the Lord's prophetic word

No, the principle of Audience Relevance is used to objectively interpret God's Word. The inspired apostles consistently identified their audiences. When we read their epistles we learn of the content of the messages given to both encourage and warn those living during the last days of Old Covenant Israel.

So, I will not engage your request for further references .... and I know that you are not really interested, you just want to create more fodder for your false teaching adventure which I consider to be a waste of time

I didn't expect you to give further references. Most of those who ignore the messages given to the original audiences quote 2 Pet. 3:8 and think that one verse refutes the multiple time statements throughout the New Testament. We can agree with Peter that God exists outside of time and space. To Him one day is as a thousand years, a thousand years as one day. We should also realize that God knew how to communicate to the original audiences through inspired apostles who were limited by time and space.

Try reading the New Testament as though you were there suffering persecution from unbelieving Old Covenant Israel. Try to imagine the comfort of knowing the end of the age would soon arrive as the harlot, Old Covenant Israel, was judged and the gospel vindicated.

God bless you

Matthew Twentyfour · Jul 19, 2015

precepts said:
And from my understanding of Preterism, all that Christ prophesied about in the NT to occur in that time did occur in that time, not specifically in 70ad, but specifically "shortly" in that time.

Don't worry about it. Everyone makes mistakes, no one's perfect.

Berean777 · Jul 19, 2015

precepts said:
It says the 4 beast in Dan 7 are 4 "kings" which means each beast kingdom had a king, a man in it that was a fallen angel. Each beast kingdom was found/started by one of these king/man fallen angel. This is what defines Revelation, because, though these nations existed historically, within them are these kings that are referred to as horns.

The beasts in Daniel are four having four kings, however in Revelation there is only one first beast who has six kings in succession.

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

But during John's time the first beast had five dead kings, not four dead kingdoms. The sixth was still alive. This is the Herodean dynasty, with across Agrippa II being the sixth who died between 92-100AD. This is the beast that the levitical authority used to crucify and persecute his church.

You're not that naive. Rome is the 4th beast.

Rome wanted nothing to do with Jesus and the Jewish religion.

Quit the narrative. The 1st beast is not lamb like, having 7 heads and 10 horns and crowns. You're confusing the False Prophet in Dan 7, the 11th horn, to be Revelation's 1st beast; but he's not. He is Revelation's 2nd beast.

I said the second beast is Christ like who later gives life to the revived first beast after he is destroyed in 70AD. After the revival of the first beast after he was then wasn't then is yet again.

Revelation's Beast, the Antichrist, is the 8th horn/king in both Dan 7's 4th beast with the 10 horns and Revelation's beast with the 7 heads and 10 horns and crowns, verified by him being the 8th among the 7 fallen kings of Rome the 4th and 5th beast kingdoms in Daniel.

Your confusing the beasts of Daniel with the beasts of John.

There is only one ascension. Daniel and Revelation are referencing the same beast, Rome.

Yes there only one ascension just like there is one zero on the timeline with BC on the left and AD on the right. Daniel's beasts are BC and John's first beast is AD.

So, how in the world can't the beasts be the same when the results are the same, Christ ascending after the beasts' defeat?

The BC beasts are successive one after another. AD beasts are working together. AD first beast dies then his image in what he stood for is revived by a second beast who is Christ like. The false prophet that worked with the first beast before the first beast was killed is not the same as the second beast who emerges later in the future after the first beast is revived by him. The first false prophet is the levitical religious system and the second beast is a Christian religious system, hence the lamb like symbolism being used to identify him.

And since there's only one lake of fire event, Dan 7:11 is Rev 19:20, the Beast being the 8th horn, and not the 11th in Dan 7:11.

No this is a wrong inference. There is no 8th king, the 7th is even the 8th. The number 8 represents resurrection. Since the first beast is revived after the mortal wound then the seventh king is also revived with his revival.

Your problem is not understanding who the 11th horn in Dan 7 is. He is the 11th horn/king in both Dan 7 and in Rev, but he's also the False Prophet, the 2nd Beast in Revelation and the 5th beast kingdom of iron and clay feet in Daniel. It is he that's noted in Dan 7:11 as being given to the flames, though the Beast (the 8th horn) isn't mentioned as in Rev 19:20.

Again different beasts BC and AD.

It's the same event explained by two different persons. Dan 7:9-10 and 21 is Rev 4:2's setting of God's throne in heaven, the same event of the Beast and False Prophet attacking heaven and being thrown into lake of fire resulting in Christ possessing and inheriting his everlasting kingdom with the help of God on the throne coming to assist him.

No Daniel writes concerning his people the old covenant Jews when Messiah comes to receive the eternal heavenly kingdom. John writes to the seven churches therefore AD. If you are going to use preterist audience relevant premise, why not use it here also.

precepts · Jul 19, 2015

Berean777 said:
The beasts in Daniel are four having four kings, however in Revelation there is only one first beast who has six kings in succession.

Daniel gives the history of the only beast kingdoms to rule over Shalem to the end of time, Babylon, Persia/Mede, Greece, and Rome - though not mentioned by name. This is what proves Revelation's beasts cannot be nations other than the ones Daniel listed. And by the time of Christ and John they were in the 4th and 5th beast kingdom that lasts until the end of time, historically proven to be Rome. It is the last beast kingdom, the 4th and 5th beast kingdoms in Daniel; thus the two beasts/kingdoms in Revelation.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

There are no more beast kingdoms after Rome. Revelation's 2 beast kingdoms is Rome, Daniel's 4th and 5th beast kingdoms, Rome.

Berean777 said:
But during John's time the first beast had five dead kings, not four dead kingdoms.

You are mixing up the fact these historical kingdoms had kings. They were in the days of the 4th beast kingdom of Rome. So, 5 of her kings were fallen - as stated in the verse, kings, not kingdoms.

Berean777 said:
The sixth was still alive. This is the Herodean dynasty, with across Agrippa II being the sixth who died between 92-100AD. This is the beast that the levitical authority used to crucify and persecute his church.

The fifth Roman king/horn was Nero whose death sparked the Roman yr of 4 emperors, the reason why one is to come and to continue a short space, the Beast is the 8th. They were kings, not kingdoms.

Rev 17:10 And there are seven kings: five are fallen, and one is, and the other is not yet come; and when he cometh, he must continue a short space.

Berean777 said:
Rome wanted nothing to do with Jesus and the Jewish religion.

Which has nothing to do with the fact Rome is the 4th and final beast kingdom, the kingdom that conquered Greece in the succession of the nations Daniel listed, the kingdom ruling during Christ and John's time.

Berean777 said:
I said the second beast is Christ like who later gives life to the revived first beast after he is destroyed in 70AD. After the revival of the first beast after he was then wasn't then is yet again.

My bad, but they are still kings: the 8th and 11th Roman kings/horns. Even though the kingdoms existed, as with Daniel's 4 beast being 4 kings, prophecy is pointing to ruling kings of the empires like Nebuchadnezzar, Cyrus and Darius, Alexander and his 4 generals, etc, continuing into Rome's kings.

Berean777 said:
Your confusing the beasts of Daniel with the beasts of John.

There are only 4 to 5 beast kingdoms.

Berean777 said:
Yes there only one ascension just like there is one zero on the timeline with BC on the left and AD on the right. Daniel's beasts are BC and John's first beast is AD.

How in the world is Daniel's beasts B.C. when the 4th beast follows Greece who where conquered by Rome in 24bc? Rome is the 4th and last beast kingdom that lasts until the end.

Berean777 said:
The BC beasts are successive one after another.

You're not that naive. Who is Dan 7's 4th beast and 5th beast kingdom of iron and clay feet?

Berean777 said:
AD beasts are working together. AD first beast dies then his image in what he stood for is revived by a second beast who is Christ like. The false prophet that worked with the first beast before the first beast was killed is not the same as the second beast who emerges later in the future after the first beast is revived by him.

Show me where in Revelation the False Prophet isn't the 2nd beast. The 11th horn/king in Dan 7:11 is not the Beast; he is the False Prophet. So, which part of Dan 7:11 being Rev 19:20 don't you comprehend?

Berean777 said:
The first false prophet is the levitical religious system and the second beast is a Christian religious system, hence the lamb like symbolism being used to identify him.

You are adding to scripture. Show me a shred of evidence in scripture that points to the false prophet being a levitical religious system. There's none! Scripture, from Daniel to Revelation, points to kings within the beast kingdoms as fallen angels. You have yet to acknowledge the fact. They are kings ruling during their respective beast kingdoms, and Rome is the final beast kingdom to rule after Greece. If there were more, Daniel would of listed them. His prophesy is for Israel's history from Babylon to the end of time. It is not the history from Babylon to Daniel, and then from John to the end of time, but from Babylon to the end of time. Rome is Revelation's two beasts and the 4th and 5th beast kingdoms in Daniel.

Berean777 said:
No this is a wrong inference. There is no 8th king, the 7th is even the 8th. The number 8 represents resurrection. Since the first beast is revived after the mortal wound then the seventh king is also revived with his revival.

Reading Comprehension is denominational Christianities biggest problem. "There," - in the city of Rome - 5 are fallen, 1 is, and 1 is to come and continue a short space, which is seven kings. How can the Beast be the 7th king when the Beast doesn't continue for a short space being the 8th? The verse says he is of the 7, meaning he follows them in sequence, proving they are the 10 kings/horns on Revelation's 1st beast and on Dan 7's 4th beast, because Dan 7:11's 11th horn is the False Prophet, the 2nd beast in Revelation, Revelation's 10th horn/king that receives power from the Beast because the Beast doesn't give power to himself among the 10 kings he gives power to during the hour. He gives power to the 11th horn, the 2nd beast in Revelation as the 10th king, 11 chronological kings minus the 8th.

Berean777 said:
Again different beasts BC and AD.

You're lacking understanding.

Berean777 said:
No Daniel writes concerning his people the old covenant Jews when Messiah comes to receive the eternal heavenly kingdom. John writes to the seven churches therefore AD. If you are going to use preterist audience relevant premise, why not use it here also.

There are only 4 to 5 beast kingdoms. Rome is the 4th and last beast kingdom that lasts until the end of time.

Dan 7:23 Thus he said, The fourth beast shall be the fourth kingdom upon earth, which shall be diverse from all kingdoms, and shall devour the whole earth, and shall tread it down, and break it in pieces.
Dan 7:24 And the ten horns out of this kingdom are ten kings that shall arise: and another shall rise after them; and he shall be diverse from the first, and he shall subdue three kings.
Dan 7:25 And he shall speak great words against the most High, and shall wear out the saints of the most High, and think to change times and laws: and they shall be given into his hand until a time and times and the dividing of time.
Dan 7:26 But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end.

Straightshot · Jul 19, 2015

My comments

Both Daniel and Revelation are 100% congruent with respect to the 7 human Middle Eastern kingdoms and king "positions" of each .... 5 have fallen [are historical], and 2 are yet to come

2 of the 5 fallen were the early post flood settlement of the land of magog [northwestern Mesopotamia] [Ezekiel 38] and the next Assyrian Empire [with capital at Nineveh] which ruled most of the Middle East for 1500 years [Genesis 10; 11]

Daniel's visions of 2, 7, 8, 11:1-35; then move forward to include the next 3: neo-Babylon; Persia, and the Seleucid/Ptolemaic

This 5th divided was the residue of Alexander's conquerings which he never ruled, one north of Israel and the other south .... the Seleucid and Egypt

The Seleucid of the north is the focus going forward ending with the king Antiochus IV [Daniel 11:21-35]

The vision breaks at this point and moves forward to the time of the end .... the 4th of the 4 kingdoms in Daniel 7:7 .... the little horn's kingdom of the northern Middle East

This northern little horn [king] will arise with small beginnings in the Syria/Iraq region at the time appointed [the 6th of the 7 Middle Eastern kingdoms in view] and he will then expand his holdings to include most of the Middle East including Egypt [the 7th and final] .... 10 other kings will rule with him [Daniel 2:40-43; 7:7-25; 8:9-25; 9:26-27 [the other prince]; 11:36-45; 12:7; Micah 5:5-6

The little horn is human, but will be infused [fully possessed and controlled] with Satan's first beast of Revelation's unfolding .... this beast is not human but a fallen angel like Satan [Revelation 9:11; 11:7; 13:1-4; 17:8-18]

Abaddon rules over the 7 human Middle Eastern kingdoms in view for Satan, past and future [Satan rules over all kingdoms of men up to this very day, but the prophets' visions are focused upon the Middle East and Israel .... it is Satan who gives his power and authority to Abaddon

He was sent to the abyss after the 5th ...... and he will be released to rule over the next 2 at the time of the end of this present age in the human little horn

Barraco · Jul 19, 2015

Straightshot said:
My comments

Both Daniel and Revelation are 100% congruent with respect to the 7 human Middle Eastern kingdoms and king "positions" of each .... 5 have fallen [are historical], and 2 are yet to come

2 of the 5 fallen were the early post flood settlement of the land of magog [northwestern Mesopotamia] [Ezekiel 38] and the next Assyrian Empire [with capital at Nineveh] which ruled most of the Middle East for 1500 years [Genesis 10; 11]

I belive you have misintepreted Revelatin 17. Before I explain why, I would like to hear your interpretation of Revelation 17:2.

We know that the woman is Rome, the city that ruled over the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:18) at the time the Apocalypse was written. We also know that the many waters she sits on are all the provinces she ruled, such as Britain, Gaul, and Asia Minor.

But what is the sexual immorality that she commits with the kings of the earth and how does it drive all the provinces to go mad with the wine of her adulteries? Certainly the kings of the earth did not carve a hole into a building in Rome and fornicate with it! So what does sexual immorality stand for in this chapter?

A New World · Jul 19, 2015

Berean777 said:
In Rev 22:3 it says those that shall serve him shall see his face. How do you see believers seeing the face of the Lord? What is meant by face here?

Revelation 22:3 There will no longer be any curse; and the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and His bond-servants will serve Him;

4 they will see His face, and His name will be on their foreheads.

I believe the curse in verse three is related to the Law. Those who were under the Law were under a curse and separated from the presence of God.

If you research the word translated "face," prosōpon, it can also mean "presence."

My understanding is that believers have been reconciled to God, live under the New Covenant in His presence, and are under His authority (His name will be on their foreheads).

Straightshot · Jul 19, 2015

"I belive you have misintepreted Revelatin 17. Before I explain why, I would like to hear your interpretation of Revelation 17:2."

I do not think that the "woman" is specifically ancient Rome as you do, but the entire intransigent unbelieving world in the Lord's view at the time of the end .... MBG

This adulterous condition is global today and the "great city" is the core of her offspring spread to many nations .... the "woman" is unfaithful to God and has abandoned His providence and direction

This behavior began long long ago when the post flood inhabitants began to build cities in the Tigris/Euphrates River valley ..... the "city" was the human attempt to develop self reliance apart from the Lord [Genesis 10; 11]

What goes around comes around, and the condition is global today ..... the Lord is going to judge her severely for her waywardness ..... then He is going to take back the earth and rule over it Himself

[Psalms 2; Jude 1:14-15; Revelation 6:12-17; 8:6-12; 14:8; 17:16-18]

Barraco · Jul 19, 2015

Straightshot said:
"I belive you have misintepreted Revelatin 17. Before I explain why, I would like to hear your interpretation of Revelation 17:2."

I do not think that the "woman" is specifically ancient Rome as you do, but the entire intransigent unbelieving world in the Lord's view at the time of the end .... MBG

This adulterous condition is global today and the "great city" is the core of her offspring spread to many nations .... the "woman" is unfaithful to God and has abandoned His providence and direction

This behavior began long long ago when the post flood inhabitants began to build cities in the Tigris/Euphrates River valley ..... the "city" was the human attempt to develop self reliance apart from the Lord [Genesis 10; 11]

What goes around comes around, and the condition is global today ..... the Lord is going to judge her severely for her waywardness ..... then He is going to take back the earth and rule over it Himself

[Psalms 2; Jude 1:14-15; Revelation 6:12-17; 8:6-12; 14:8; 17:16-18]

Interesting. Notice that the chapter does not talk about adultery. It talks about sexual immorality. If you let the chapter do the talking without the 2,000 years of theology we have come to accept as normative, you may see that the chapter is focused on something particular.

The city is Rome. There was no other city that ruled over the kings of the earth that fits within the context of the book of Revelation. Notice also that, as late as the Diocletian persecution from 303-c.313 CE, Asia Minor had always persecuted the saints more. Historians detailed also that, as earlier as Augustus' reign, the people of Asia Minor zealously sought to worship him as a god and savior. They built temples in the names of the emperors called neocorates. These extravagant temples elevated the status of these cities and brought them more funds from the city of Rome.

What was incorporated here was the cult of Roma. The Romans believed that the spirit of the goddess Roma lived in the city of Rome and that the emperor himself was the representative of Roma. So, when people in Asia Minor worshiped the emperors, they worshiped the goddess Roma as well as the city of Rome. In this way, the city of Rome committed sexual immorality with the kings of the earth and the people of Asia Minor went mad because of it.

Sexual Immorality was often the symbol used to describe idolatry in the Old Testament. Jeremiah 3 is a prime example. But if you look up sexual immorality or fornication, depending on the version you are using in YouVersion or similar program, you will see the symbolism being applied.

So sexual immorality in Revelation 17 is idolatry. The people of Asia Minor were worshiping the Roman emperors. When Christianity became popular in the provinces, people started forsaking the pagan feasts and worship. This made their cults of Roma irrelevant and robbed the city of extra funds from the capital. Like anytime when peoples' profits are jeapordized, the people began persecuting the Christians. Add this to the fact that Domitian had been betrayed and had become suspicious of everyone and you get catastrophic results. I think it is very possible that Domitian ordered tribunes to be held in his honor at the pagan feasts in each city of every Roman province to sniff out rebels and traitors. At these feasts, the proconsul and the Asiarch would send out the herald to command the worship of the emperor. A similar account can be found in the story The Martyrdom of Polycarp.

So the seven heads are not seven kingdoms. They are seven Roman Emperors that were worshiped as gods by the people of Asia Minor. These are as follows:

1. Augustus
2. Tiberius
3. Caligula
4. Claudius
5. Nero
6. Vespasian
7. Titus (whose reign only lasted two years)

Notice that I did not include Galba, Otho, and Vitellius like I would if I were interpreted the ten horns of Revelation 13's beast from the sea. These did not rule long enough for their temples to be built in Asia Minor and their cults to be established. That is where many people trip up.

Revelation 17:2 is a tricky verse, but it holds the key to interpreting everything in Revelation 17.

ron4shua · Jul 19, 2015

http://biblehub.com/isr/revelation/17.htm
1And one of the seven messengers who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying to me, “Come, I shall show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters,a

2with whom the sovereigns of the earth committed whoring, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her whoring.”

3And he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast covered with names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4And the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup filled with abominations and the filthiness of her whoring,a

5and upon her forehead a name written, a secret: BAḆEL THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE harlots AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the set-apart ones, and with the blood of the witnesses of יהושע. And having seen her, I marvelled – greatly marvelled!

7And the messenger said to me, “Why did you marvel? Let me explain to you the secret of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

8“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the pit of the deep and goes to destruction. And those dwelling on the earth, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, shall
marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9“Here is the mind having wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

10“And there are seven sovereigns: five have fallen, and one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he has to remain a little while.

11“And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes to destruction.

12“And the ten horns which you saw are ten sovereigns who have not yet received a reign, but receive authority as sovereigns with the beast for one hour.

13“They have one mind, and they shall give their power and authority to the beast.

14“They shall fight with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, for He is Master of masters and Sovereign of sovereigns. And those with Him are called, and chosen, and trustworthy.”

15And he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, and crowds, and nations, and tongues.

16“And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and lay her waste and naked, and eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

17“For Elohim did give it into their hearts to do His mind, to be of one mind, and to give their reign to the beast, until the words of Elohim shall be accomplished.

18“And the woman whom you saw is that great city having sovereignty over the sovereigns of the earth.”

http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines?word=%AFt0001117

<B-1,Verb,4203,inappropriate contenteuo>
"to commit fornication," is used (a) literally, Mark 10:19; 1 Cor. 6:18; 10:8; Rev. 2:14,20, see (a) and (b) above; (b) metaphorically, Rev. 17:2; 18:3,9.

metaphor definition. The comparison of one thing to another without the use of like or as: “A man is but a weak reed”; “The road was a ribbon of moonlight.” Metaphors are common in literature and expansive speech. (Compare simile.)
Metaphorically | Define Metaphorically at Dictionary.com
dictionary.reference.com/browse/metaphorically

Berean777 · Jul 19, 2015

Barraco said:
I belive you have misintepreted Revelatin 17. Before I explain why, I would like to hear your interpretation of Revelation 17:2.

We know that the woman is Rome, the city that ruled over the kings of the earth (Rev. 17:18) at the time the Apocalypse was written. We also know that the many waters she sits on are all the provinces she ruled, such as Britain, Gaul, and Asia Minor.

But what is the sexual immorality that she commits with the kings of the earth and how does it drive all the provinces to go mad with the wine of her adulteries? Certainly the kings of the earth did not carve a hole into a building in Rome and fornicate with it! So what does sexual immorality stand for in this chapter?

Old Jerusalem was not only a religious epicentre of the world, but she was also a trading capital of the world. It was basically the centre of the old world, just like Singapore is the trading centre connecting the northern and Southern Hemispheres. Jerusalem was a strategic shipping lane for merchant vessels of all manner to stop over and to deliver their goods from ships to roads.

So great Babylon of the ancient world during the time of John was symbolised by the river Euphrates, where the cradle of civilisation existed, hence the name Babylon. The religion coming from this women was directly from the Babylonian Talmud.

Sexual immorality is in the metaphor sense as she sells herself to the world, by having one foot in bed with the kingdoms of the world and the other foot in bed with the abrahamic religion. The fact that she is labelled a harlot, also implies that she was once God's spiritual wife before she started committing these whorish practices. She can only be labeled a harlot if she once had a legitimate husband and then started to double timed her husband with the relationships she had with the kings of the world. Because Rome never was married to God Rome can not be titled harlot, because a women in the Jewish tradition points to a bride/wife. Rome knew not the God of Abraham and so she was never spiritually married to him in the first place. So in that sense God was married to an entire nation called Israel.

In scripture we find God labelling her as an unfaithful wife:

http://bible.ucg.org/bible-commenta...ithless-wife;-An-everlasting-covenant-coming/

Ezekiel 16 shows God as a devoted, loving, generous, ideal husband married to an adulterous wife, reminiscent of other passages such as Jeremiah 3 and Hosea 1-3. Here the wife is Jerusalem, representative of the Jewish nation, the remnant of Israel.

In the book of Revelation God has to consider the women already his wife before she is labeled a harlot who falls out of favour from him, due to her fornications. There is no scriptural contextual purpose for Rome to ever be labeled such a title.

You are looking at events in Revelation 17 from a Historicist point of view and fail to realise that relationship of the title of harlot has to indicate that she was once legitimately the spiritual wife to God.

Jewish weddings go hand in hand with wine as the story of the wedding at Galilee highlights. Wine symbolises holy matrimony that is a union between husband and wine. You read in Joel of wine being dried up and wine running out at the wedding in Galilee, these are all symbols related to what God considers beneficial to him, notwithstanding the kings of the earth, God looks at relationships blessed with wine as the cherry on top so to speak and so there can't be used the symbol of wine for Rome, because there was never a holy matrimony between God and Rome. Rome was head deep into paganism and they had no wine of joy at all between them and the the God of Abraham.

Berean777 · Jul 19, 2015

ron4shua said:
http://biblehub.com/isr/revelation/17.htm
1And one of the seven messengers who had the seven bowls came and spoke with me, saying to me, “Come, I shall show you the judgment of the great harlot sitting on many waters,a

2with whom the sovereigns of the earth committed whoring, and the inhabitants of the earth were made drunk with the wine of her whoring.”

3And he carried me away in the Spirit into the wilderness. And I saw a woman sitting on a scarlet beast covered with names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.

4And the woman was dressed in purple and scarlet, and adorned with gold and precious stones and pearls, holding in her hand a golden cup filled with abominations and the filthiness of her whoring,a

5and upon her forehead a name written, a secret: BAḆEL THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF THE harlots AND OF THE ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.

6And I saw the woman, drunk with the blood of the set-apart ones, and with the blood of the witnesses of יהושע. And having seen her, I marvelled – greatly marvelled!

7And the messenger said to me, “Why did you marvel? Let me explain to you the secret of the woman and of the beast she rides, which has the seven heads and the ten horns.

8“The beast that you saw was, and is not, and is about to come up out of the pit of the deep and goes to destruction. And those dwelling on the earth, whose names are not written in the Book of Life from the foundation of the world, shall
marvel when they see the beast that was, and is not, and yet is.

9“Here is the mind having wisdom: The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.

10“And there are seven sovereigns: five have fallen, and one is, and the other has not yet come. And when he comes, he has to remain a little while.

11“And the beast that was, and is not, is himself also the eighth, and is of the seven, and goes to destruction.

12“And the ten horns which you saw are ten sovereigns who have not yet received a reign, but receive authority as sovereigns with the beast for one hour.

13“They have one mind, and they shall give their power and authority to the beast.

14“They shall fight with the Lamb, and the Lamb shall overcome them, for He is Master of masters and Sovereign of sovereigns. And those with Him are called, and chosen, and trustworthy.”

15And he said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the harlot sits, are peoples, and crowds, and nations, and tongues.

16“And the ten horns which you saw on the beast, these shall hate the harlot, and lay her waste and naked, and eat her flesh and burn her with fire.

17“For Elohim did give it into their hearts to do His mind, to be of one mind, and to give their reign to the beast, until the words of Elohim shall be accomplished.

18“And the woman whom you saw is that great city having sovereignty over the sovereigns of the earth.”

http://www.menfak.no/bibelprog/vines?word=%AFt0001117

<B-1,Verb,4203,inappropriate contenteuo>
"to commit fornication," is used (a) literally, Mark 10:19; 1 Cor. 6:18; 10:8; Rev. 2:14,20, see (a) and (b) above; (b) metaphorically, Rev. 17:2; 18:3,9.

metaphor definition. The comparison of one thing to another without the use of like or as: “A man is but a weak reed”; “The road was a ribbon of moonlight.” Metaphors are common in literature and expansive speech. (Compare simile.)
Metaphorically | Define Metaphorically at Dictionary.com
dictionary.reference.com/browse/metaphorically

Thank you that was very helpful.

Berean777 · Jul 19, 2015

Barraco said:
Interesting. Notice that the chapter does not talk about adultery. It talks about sexual immorality. If you let the chapter do the talking without the 2,000 years of theology we have come to accept as normative, you may see that the chapter is focused on something particular.

The city is Rome. There was no other city that ruled over the kings of the earth that fits within the context of the book of Revelation. Notice also that, as late as the Diocletian persecution from 303-c.313 CE, Asia Minor had always persecuted the saints more. Historians detailed also that, as earlier as Augustus' reign, the people of Asia Minor zealously sought to worship him as a god and savior. They built temples in the names of the emperors called neocorates. These extravagant temples elevated the status of these cities and brought them more funds from the city of Rome.

What was incorporated here was the cult of Roma. The Romans believed that the spirit of the goddess Roma lived in the city of Rome and that the emperor himself was the representative of Roma. So, when people in Asia Minor worshiped the emperors, they worshiped the goddess Roma as well as the city of Rome. In this way, the city of Rome committed sexual immorality with the kings of the earth and the people of Asia Minor went mad because of it.

Sexual Immorality was often the symbol used to describe idolatry in the Old Testament. Jeremiah 3 is a prime example. But if you look up sexual immorality or fornication, depending on the version you are using in YouVersion or similar program, you will see the symbolism being applied.

So sexual immorality in Revelation 17 is idolatry. The people of Asia Minor were worshiping the Roman emperors. When Christianity became popular in the provinces, people started forsaking the pagan feasts and worship. This made their cults of Roma irrelevant and robbed the city of extra funds from the capital. Like anytime when peoples' profits are jeapordized, the people began persecuting the Christians. Add this to the fact that Domitian had been betrayed and had become suspicious of everyone and you get catastrophic results. I think it is very possible that Domitian ordered tribunes to be held in his honor at the pagan feasts in each city of every Roman province to sniff out rebels and traitors. At these feasts, the proconsul and the Asiarch would send out the herald to command the worship of the emperor. A similar account can be found in the story The Martyrdom of Polycarp.

So the seven heads are not seven kingdoms. They are seven Roman Emperors that were worshiped as gods by the people of Asia Minor. These are as follows:

1. Augustus
2. Tiberius
3. Caligula
4. Claudius
5. Nero
6. Vespasian
7. Titus (whose reign only lasted two years)

Notice that I did not include Galba, Otho, and Vitellius like I would if I were interpreted the ten horns of Revelation 13's beast from the sea. These did not rule long enough for their temples to be built in Asia Minor and their cults to be established. That is where many people trip up.

Revelation 17:2 is a tricky verse, but it holds the key to interpreting everything in Revelation 17.

I am intrigued by your Historicist knowledge. As you stated Rome worshipped the god Roma, so they had no wine as far as God was concerned because they were never ever in marriage to him in the first place, however Jerusalem was.

As you pointed out Jeremiah 3 is an idolatrous practice alluded to as sexual immorality. As I had mentioned in my previous post that Jerusalem had one foot in bed with the Abrahamic religion and the other foot in bed with the Kings of the world. Jesus would say you cannot worship God and money, so Jerusalem was a political and religious epicentre of the Middle Eastern Region (symbolised by river Euphrates), this also applied idolatry to her practices within the context of sexual immorality because you can't pretend to serve God whilst loving the things of the world ie. money. Here again is my previous post:

<a href="http://www.christianforums.com/thre...kly-70ad-hmmmmmm.7895395/page-3#post-68324282">Preterist say I come quickly 70AD, Hmmmmmm!</a>

Straightshot · Jul 19, 2015

"Interesting. Notice that the chapter does not talk about adultery. It talks about sexual immorality"

Not even close ..... the "woman" is estranged from her Maker

Humanity is steeped in idolatry and against the Lord .... and this condition will bring His wrath [Revelation 17:16-18]

Your rendering makes no sense .... you would say that the beast and the 10 kings will burn sexual immorality with fire in one day, never to rise again [Revelation 18:21]

And your pick of 7 ancient Roman kings is bogus .... the 7 heads of the beast are His 7 middle Eastern kingdoms and related human king positions

Preterist say I come quickly 70AD, Hmmmmmm!

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