Can The State Of Israel Be Destroyed!

Berean777 · Jul 8, 2015

If we are to chronologically follow the script that Jesus rehearsed according to post #318, we need to follow this sequence of events that revolve around the sign of Jonah, that was given to the old levitical administration. Jesus declared before them the following: "I will destroy this temple and in three days I will raise it up again", so watch me!

<a href="http://www.christianforums.com/thre...el-be-destroyed.7892598/page-16#post-68263339">Can The State Of Israel Be Destroyed!</a>

Preterists use the wrong formulae to make everything revolve around 70AD rather than the sign of Jonah signalling the triumphant entry of Jesus into Jerusalem where daughter Zion cries out Hosanna, blessed is he who comes in the name of the Lord.

God bless

BABerean2 · Jul 9, 2015

A New World said:
The destruction of Jerusalem and not one stone left upon another in that generation fulfilled the promise of her house being left to her desolate. The judgment of the harlot brought an end of the Old Covenant age. It was at that time that her kingdom would be given to another. The New Covenant was consummated and the spiritual kingdom was realized.

Why did God tear the veil in the temple on the day of the Cross?

Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

.

Straightshot · Jul 9, 2015

"The destruction of Jerusalem and not one stone left upon another in that generation fulfilled the promise of her house being left to her desolate."

And there still not one stone today .... and there will not be during the coming tribulation period

The Lord was not speaking about 70 AD, but looking much further to the time of the end of this present age

.... and this "generation" is still ongoing as we speak .... Israel and the nations of the Gentiles since just after the Noahic flood to this very day to include those who will experience the Lord's coming judgment of the tribulation period

The preterist has the wrong "time of the end" .... it was not in 70 AD, and refuses to look further

These are the scoffers of the last days [2 Peter 3]

Berean777 · Jul 9, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Why did God tear the veil in the temple on the day of the Cross?

Luke 23:45 And the sun was darkened, and the veil of the temple was rent in the midst.

.

Because it was over! In with the new and out with the old.

com7fy8 · Jul 9, 2015

Ranting said:
The Bible >say NO!> your thoughts.

A number of times in history, Israel has turned against God and He has put the Jews out of their place. But they have not been utterly destroyed. Now it appears that Israel is refusing to obey our Messiah Jesus; so they could be put out, but not utterly destroyed, unless God simply decides not to have this happen.

The Bible seems to say that Israel will return to the LORD, which I understand means to openly obey Jesus our Messiah. But, "of course", God could have them return to their land, first. But there is some number of Jews not now living on the land of Israel. There are all the Jews not on the present geographical location known as the State of Israel; so they have not returned. Also, I understand that some of the promised land is within borders of other sovereign countries. So, they have not yet returned to all of this promised land, have they?

Possibly, the Bible means, by returning, that they return to the part where they are. God knows.

Also, there are Jewish people who have trusted in Jesus, and these are busy with reaching people for Christ in various parts of the world. I "doubt" God is going to have them stop missionary work, in order to return them to an area of land so that all Jews will have returned there.

So, there is more to this, than I know.

Berean777 · Jul 9, 2015

Israel is Christ and those called to Christ are Israel and it encompasses the whole world.

Genesis 22:17
I will surely bless you and make your descendants as numerous as the stars in the sky and as the sand on the seashore. Your descendants will take possession of the cities of their enemies,

Christianity has grown my friend in leaps and bounds and only these final years we see many falling away from the faith. This is the perfect time for Jews to come on board as the 11th hour workmen so that the Lord will also render onto them a denarius so to speak.

Straightshot · Jul 9, 2015

"Israel is Christ and those called to Christ are Israel"

Israel is not Jesus Christ .... Israel is His nation

And His true ecclesia of both Jew and Gentile are not Israel

The Jews are the saved of the nation of Israel .... the balance of the saved are of the nations of the Gentiles

The Lord's saving for eternity is on thing .... He relationship to His nation of Israel is another

parousia70 · Jul 9, 2015

com7fy8 said:
A number of times in history, Israel has turned against God and He has put the Jews out of their place. But they have not been utterly destroyed. Now it appears that Israel is refusing to obey our Messiah Jesus; so they could be put out, but not utterly destroyed, unless God simply decides not to have this happen.

Deuteronomy 4 and Deuteronomy 28 Seem to disagree with you:

Deut 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that you will utterly perish from the land which you cross over the Jordan to possess; you will not prolong your days in it, but will be utterly destroyed.

Deut 28
15 “But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

20 “The Lord will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me.

24 The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.

27 The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed.

29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.

45 “Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lordyour God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you.

48 therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you.

61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed.

63 And it shall be, that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.

A New World · Jul 9, 2015

parousia70 said:
Deuteronomy 4 and Deuteronomy 28 Seem to disagree with you:

Deut 4:26
I call heaven and earth to witness against you this day, that you will utterly perish from the land which you cross over the Jordan to possess; you will not prolong your days in it, but will be utterly destroyed.

Deut 28
15 “But it shall come to pass, if you do not obey the voice of the Lord your God, to observe carefully all His commandments and His statutes which I command you today, that all these curses will come upon you and overtake you:

20 “The Lord will send on you cursing, confusion, and rebuke in all that you set your hand to do, until you are destroyed and until you perish quickly, because of the wickedness of your doings in which you have forsaken Me.

24 The Lord will change the rain of your land to powder and dust; from the heaven it shall come down on you until you are destroyed.

27 The Lord will strike you with the boils of Egypt, with tumors, with the scab, and with the itch, from which you cannot be healed.

29 And you shall grope at noonday, as a blind man gropes in darkness; you shall not prosper in your ways; you shall be only oppressed and plundered continually, and no one shall save you.

45 “Moreover all these curses shall come upon you and pursue and overtake you, until you are destroyed, because you did not obey the voice of the Lordyour God, to keep His commandments and His statutes which He commanded you.

48 therefore you shall serve your enemies, whom the Lord will send against you, in hunger, in thirst, in nakedness, and in need of everything; and He will put a yoke of iron on your neck until He has destroyed you.

49 The Lord will bring a nation against you from afar, from the end of the earth, as swift as the eagle flies, a nation whose language you will not understand, 50 a nation of fierce countenance, which does not respect the elderly nor show favor to the young. 51 And they shall eat the increase of your livestock and the produce of your land, until you are destroyed; they shall not leave you grain or new wine or oil, or the increase of your cattle or the offspring of your flocks, until they have destroyed you.

61 Also every sickness and every plague, which is not written in this Book of the Law, will the Lord bring upon you until you are destroyed.

63 And it shall be, that just as the Lord rejoiced over you to do you good and multiply you, so the Lord will rejoice over you to destroy you and bring you to nothing; and you shall be plucked from off the land which you go to possess.

This obviously did not take place at the time of cross but at the end of the Old Covenant age.

ebedmelech · Jul 9, 2015

A New World said:
You continue to ignore the fact that there were Jews UNDER THE LAW OF MOSES at the time Paul wrote. I realize that Paul and all of those coming to Christ by faith were free from the curse of the Law. But, there were those remaining under the Law of Moses who faced imminent judgment that was promised for those under the Law. Since they remained under the Law of Moses they remained under the Old Covenant. Though you may not accept it or maybe you're avoiding the clear logic of it for some reason, this means the Old Covenant could not have passed away at the cross!

Read Leviticus 26 again. Moses warned Israel of the curses they faced for disobedience to the Law.

New World, I'm not ignoring anything. Israel looked at the Law the wrong way, that's how they put themselves UNDER the law. The Law (Ten Commandments) defines sin. However the Ceremonial Law (Feast days along with offerings sacrifices for sin), all pointed to Christ because as Hebrews 9:22 says:
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

When Israel sinned they were to offer sacrifices for sin, as God prescribed. One needed to have faith in God that those offerings cleansed them. The problem was when the Law began to be used as a measure for righteousness! We see this in the Gospels as the Pharisees, Scribes, and Sadducees all thought they were righteous by the Law and argued with Jesus time and time again that they were righteous because they obeyed the Law. This is why I think you have it wrong...Paul says what the Law was for...TO DEFINE SIN.

A New World said:
The book of Revelation is about the ultimate fulfillment of the judgment of God on the final generation of Old Covenant Israel.

Revelation 15:1 Then I saw another sign in heaven, great and marvelous: seven angels having the seven last plagues, for in them the wrath of God is complete.

That's correct...I agree. However it does not mean at all that God was honoring the Old Covenant still. That's where we come to a head. God did not send Christ to sacrifice Himself on the cross after fulfilling the Law perfectly to continue the Old Covenant.

A New World said:
I agree. I have no idea where you got the idea that I think anyone was saved under the Law. Only those who believed God were counted righteous in His sight.

Perhaps you should spell out what you mean then when you say "the Jews were under Law". Help me with that.

A New World said:
I completely agree! What's your point?

My point is many of Israel were saved under the Old Covenant because they did not see themselves as "under the Law"...they looked to God in faith as David recorded in many Psalms.

Take a look at Leviticus and see how many times the Lord said he/she will be FORGIVEN...then explain how that works if you're UNDER Law.

A New World said:
They did not put themselves under the Law. The Jews were born under the Law. The nation of Israel was under the Mosaic Law from the time it was given at Mt. Sinai until it was judged in AD 70 for sins committed under the Law. At no point during that span of time was anyone justified by the Law.

See my response above...and explain or show how God put them under the Law because God provided them with a sacrificial system for forgiveness. To be UNDER LAW is to think you can be righteous by it...you can't...and that (AGAIN), is what Paul says their error was! Romans 9:
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.

That is putting yourself UNDER the Law.

BABerean2 · Jul 10, 2015

A New World said:
This obviously did not take place at the time of cross but at the end of the Old Covenant age.

Based on your viewpoint, the Old Covenant would be reinstituted if the Jews in the modern nation of Israel rebuilt a temple and renewed animal sacrifices.

.

A New World · Jul 10, 2015

ebedmelech said:
New World, I'm not ignoring anything. Israel looked at the Law the wrong way, that's how they put themselves UNDER the law. The Law (Ten Commandments) defines sin. However the Ceremonial Law (Feast days along with offerings sacrifices for sin), all pointed to Christ because as Hebrews 9:22 says:
22 And according to the Law, one may almost say, all things are cleansed with blood, and without shedding of blood there is no forgiveness.

All of national Israel was under the Old Covenant Law since her inception at Mt. Sinai.

When Israel sinned they were to offer sacrifices for sin, as God prescribed. One needed to have faith in God that those offerings cleansed them. The problem was when the Law began to be used as a measure for righteousness! We see this in the Gospels as the Pharisees, Scribes, and Sadducees all thought they were righteous by the Law and argued with Jesus time and time again that they were righteous because they obeyed the Law. This is why I think you have it wrong...Paul says what the Law was for...TO DEFINE SIN.

The conditions you describe were common throughout the Old Covenant age. None of this indicates the Old Covenant passed away at the cross.

However it does not mean at all that God was honoring the Old Covenant still. That's where we come to a head. God did not send Christ to sacrifice Himself on the cross after fulfilling the Law perfectly to continue the Old Covenant.

The fact that Israel remained under the Law throughout the New Testament era is evidence the Old Covenant remained. As I've pointed out repeatedly Paul portrays the Old Covenant Law continuing. Old Covenant Israel was defined by the Mosaic Law.

Though you can't or won't acknowledge it, Galatians 4:21-31 clearly associated the Law from Mt. Sinai, the Old Covenant, and Jerusalem as present at the time Paul wrote. He said the children of the flesh, which he defined as those of the Old Covenant, were at that time persecuting those of the spirit, the children of the New Covenant.

Here's another example of the Old Covenant continuing:

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Covenant, because the veil is taken away in Christ.

15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.

16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Those under the Old Covenant were blinded even in Paul's day. The gospel was being preached to them during the last days of Old Covenant Israel to heal their blindness and bring them into the light.

Perhaps you should spell out what you mean then when you say "the Jews were under Law". Help me with that.

The entire nation of Israel was under the Mosaic Law from Mt. Sinai until the final judgment in AD 70.

My point is many of Israel were saved under the Old Covenant because they did not see themselves as "under the Law"...they looked to God in faith as David recorded in many Psalms.

Even those of faith were part of Old Covenant Israel. They were aware of the fact that they were under the Law. The Mosaic Law was synonymous with the Old Covenant. Why would you think they did not see themselves as under the Law? Of course they did!

Take a look at Leviticus and see how many times the Lord said he/she will be FORGIVEN...then explain how that works if you're UNDER Law.

Their forgiveness was by faith but would not be realized until Christ. Their salvation would come at the end of the age.

explain or show how God put them under the Law because God provided them with a sacrificial system for forgiveness. To be UNDER LAW is to think you can be righteous by it...you can't...and that (AGAIN), is what Paul says their error was! Romans 9:
31 but Israel, pursuing a law of righteousness, did not arrive at that law.
32 Why? Because they did not pursue it by faith, but as though it were by works.

That is putting yourself UNDER the Law.

We definitely see this differently. I see all of Israel under the Law of Moses. They were obligated to perform it perfectly. The sacrificial system allowed atonement for their sins. Though they were all under the Law those who believed God and placed their hope in the coming Messiah were counted righteous in God's sight.

To be UNDER LAW is to think you can be righteous by it...you can't...and that (AGAIN), is what Paul says their error was!

Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Paul said Jesus was born under the Law.
Are you saying Jesus thought He could be righteous by the Law?

Paul said Jesus came to redeem those who were under the Law.
Yet you're saying those He came to redeem were not under the Law.

Scripture disagrees with your portrayal of those under the Law. Those under the Law of Moses, national Israel, remained under the Old Covenant unless they came to faith in Christ before the end of the age. The Old Covenant age remained until it was judged and cast out in AD 70.

A New World · Jul 10, 2015

BABerean2 said:
Based on your viewpoint, the Old Covenant would be reinstituted if the Jews in the modern nation of Israel rebuilt a temple and renewed animal sacrifices.

.

What?

You have completely misunderstood my viewpoint to make this kind of statement. Let me summarize it for you.

The Old Covenant age ended when the harlot was destroyed in AD 70. Her kingdom was given to another, New Covenant Israel, the church.

The church is founded on the remnant, the firstfruits, taken out of Old Covenant Israel prior to her destruction. The New Covenant age continues forever.

Does that sound like I think Old Covenant Israel could be reinstituted?

parousia70 · Jul 10, 2015

Straightshot said:
The Lord's saving for eternity is on thing .... He relationship to His nation of Israel is another

Are you saying one is eternal, one is not?

Straightshot · Jul 10, 2015

"Are you saying one is eternal, one is not?]

Both are eternal

That's enough for now P .... maybe later

No time for your trick questions

By By

ebedmelech · Jul 12, 2015

A New World said:
All of national Israel was under the Old Covenant Law since her inception at Mt. Sinai.

The conditions you describe were common throughout the Old Covenant age. None of this indicates the Old Covenant passed away at the cross.

Here again, you're thinking because Israel continued with the Old Covenant, it means it was still being honored by God. It was not. Which brings it right back to Jesus instituting the New Covenant where he told 11 Jews to do in remembrance of Him!

Then we have Peter at Pentecost telling all those Jews there for the Old Covenant practice...it's Jesus. How do you miss that?

A New World said:
The fact that Israel remained under the Law throughout the New Testament era is evidence the Old Covenant remained. As I've pointed out repeatedly Paul portrays the Old Covenant Law continuing. Old Covenant Israel was defined by the Mosaic Law.

Though you can't or won't acknowledge it, Galatians 4:21-31 clearly associated the Law from Mt. Sinai, the Old Covenant, and Jerusalem as present at the time Paul wrote. He said the children of the flesh, which he defined as those of the Old Covenant, were at that time persecuting those of the spirit, the children of the New Covenant.

I acknowledge it properly as for what Paul is saying. Why is "present Jerusalem" in bondage?...because they still practice an ABOLISHED covenant. Paul tells us it was ABOLISHED at the cross...Ephesians 2:14-18, Colossians 2:14-19

A New World said:
Here's another example of the Old Covenant continuing:

2 Corinthians 3:14 But their minds were blinded. For until this day the same veil remains unlifted in the reading of the Old Covenant, because the veil is taken away in Christ.

15 But even to this day, when Moses is read, a veil lies on their heart.

16 Nevertheless when one turns to the Lord, the veil is taken away.

Those under the Old Covenant were blinded even in Paul's day. The gospel was being preached to them during the last days of Old Covenant Israel to heal their blindness and bring them into the light.

There's a difference here. You think the Old Covenant is continuing...but what you actually have is a stubborn Israel continuing the Old Covenant, when a New Covenant exist...that's why they're blind...and that's the point of the passage.

A New World said:
The entire nation of Israel was under the Mosaic Law from Mt. Sinai until the final judgment in AD 70.

No. As much as you want to think that it is simply error to do so. Christ ended OC practice...that's why Christ IS THE END OF THE LAW to everyone who believes.

A New World said:
Even those of faith were part of Old Covenant Israel. They were aware of the fact that they were under the Law. The Mosaic Law was synonymous with the Old Covenant. Why would you think they did not see themselves as under the Law? Of course they did!

Show "those of faith" keeping the OC please...

A New World said:
Their forgiveness was by faith but would not be realized until Christ. Their salvation would come at the end of the age.

Once again...David...Psalm 32 1, 2:
How blessed is he whose transgression is forgiven, Whose sin is covered!
2 How blessed is the man to whom the Lord does not impute iniquity,
And in whose spirit there is no deceit!
That's someone's theology New World...above...do you read David waiting on Christ at the cross? HE KNOWS his sin is forgiven RIGHT THERE!

A New World said:
We definitely see this differently. I see all of Israel under the Law of Moses. They were obligated to perform it perfectly. The sacrificial system allowed atonement for their sins. Though they were all under the Law those who believed God and placed their hope in the coming Messiah were counted righteous in God's sight.

If that's the case...why did they sacrifice for sin?

A New World said:
Galatians 4:4 But when the fullness of the time had come, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the law,

5 to redeem those who were under the law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Paul said Jesus was born under the Law.
Are you saying Jesus thought He could be righteous by the Law?

Paul said Jesus came to redeem those who were under the Law.
Yet you're saying those He came to redeem were not under the Law.

Scripture disagrees with your portrayal of those under the Law. Those under the Law of Moses, national Israel, remained under the Old Covenant unless they came to faith in Christ before the end of the age. The Old Covenant age remained until it was judged and cast out in AD 70.

You've got this really contorted...but I'm going to leave this passage for you to work through...Romans 10:1-13.

LastSeven · Jul 12, 2015

Ranting said:
OK > I say NO !> your Thoughts Ji

lol

Ranting · Jul 12, 2015

The New Covenant was consummated and the spiritual kingdom was realized. There is no spiritual Israel in the Bible. That is all man made religion.

LastSeven · Jul 12, 2015

The Bible does not use the term "spiritual Israel" but we use it to help distinguish the Israel of God from that nation in the middle east which calls itself Israel, during the course of debate. That does not make it a man made religion, only man made terminology.

The true Israel has always been defined by faith, even in the desert. The name bestowed upon that nation in the middle east serves only to confuse, as it bears no resemblance to the people chosen by God, except that the early Israelites occupied the same land.

Ranting · Jul 12, 2015

The true Israel has always been defined by faith, even in the desert NO!

Can The State Of Israel Be Destroyed!

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