Genesis 1: Exposition and Doctrine of Creation

yeshuasavedme said:

Mark Kennedy said:


If God created the sun and moon and stars before day 4, as you said, then where did He put them before day 2, because as of day 1 there was no stretched out heavens between the divided in two waters.

So if the heavens were not stretched out from this created globe of water, out of which all created things and all powers come, until day 2 of creation week when the heavens were stretched out from this earth between the divided in two waters of creation, and the heavens were named at that time, and exist in at least three stories -as the Word does say, with Paradise being in Eden in the third heaven, as Paul also declares- then where was the sun you say was created before the heavens were stretched out?
Let us "really, and truly" do Genesis 1!

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All of Creation week took place in God's mind. This doesn't make it any less
real, just different from our normal sin-soaked existence.

SkyWriting said:

All of Creation week took place in God's mind. This doesn't make it any less
real, just different from our normal sin-soaked existence.

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Replying to such non biblical ideas out of your own mind, spoken without any foundation than "you" say so -is pointless.

yeshuasavedme said:

Replying to such non biblical ideas out of your own mind, spoken without any foundation than "you" say so -is pointless.

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That describes your response to my idea.







Scripture provides the foundation, not me.

A few things are different.

Everything is eternal. Men live forever.
Adam is formed fully grown. Eve is pulled from Adams rib
and is fully grown, there is no rain, there is a tree of life
and one of good and evil, Serpents talk, Adam can talk
thanks to years of experiences injected into his mind
when formed, and other things.

These all indicate that the Garden Gate with the two
guards standing by it keeping man out.......

will not be discovered by you anytime soon.

We could go over the same details for Creation week like:

A couple days of dark and light before any stars were formed.
A number of things providing a foundation for the idea that
Creation was not a "Natural" event.

When Jesus heals a blind man.....where does He pluck those eyes from?
Some other person?

SkyWriting said:

All of Creation week took place in God's mind. This doesn't make it any less
real, just different from our normal sin-soaked existence.

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Yikes. Sky, where do you get this stuff? Seems you're so intent on aligning yourself with modern naturalistic theories, you'll go to any length to force fit Scripture within it.

SkyWriting said:

All of Creation week took place in God's mind. This doesn't make it any less
real, just different from our normal sin-soaked existence.

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What chapter and verse says that, exactly?

Patrick Bateman said:

What chapter and verse says that, exactly?

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Adam was eternal, serpents chatted, there was a tree of life, it never rained, and the
entrance to this garden has a couple of babies with swords guarding it.
If you can show that it was destroyed or where it still exists, you'd have a valid point.

Calminian said:

Yikes. Sky, where do you get this stuff? Seems you're so intent on aligning yourself with modern naturalistic theories, you'll go to any length to force fit Scripture within it.

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Scripture doesn't fit well with the world I call reality around me.

Created in 6 days.
Some of those light and dark cycles were before the sun was created.
Adam was walking and talking his first week.
There are quite a few aspects of creation week that do not
fit into naturalistic molds. Plus we can't find that elusive
garden guarded by God's helpers. I've come to the conclusion
that the early creation existence, where people live eternal lives,
is not this planet. It that place around here....or have you some
other location in mind?

SkyWriting said:

Scripture doesn't fit well with the world I call reality around me.

Created in 6 days.
Some of those light and dark cycles were before the sun was created.
Adam was walking and talking his first week.
There are quite a few aspects of creation week that do not
fit into naturalistic molds. Plus we can't find that elusive
garden guarded by God's helpers. I've come to the conclusion
that the early creation existence, where people live eternal lives,
is not this planet. It that place around here....or have you some
other location in mind?

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Hi Sky,

I think that what you are missing in your faith is a real understanding of the power and glory of God.

First, 'day' is not a light and dark cycle. 'Day' is a rotation of a planetary body upon its axis. You can look it up in any information on planetary bodies that there is absolutely no weight given for the sun or moon on the horizon to determine the passing of a day upon that body. As to light being in the realm of our existence, the Scriptures say that God is light. The Revelation even tells us that on the new earth there will be no need of the sun as God will be the light. So, it's entirely possible that when God said, "Let there be light." He was merely telling us that He came into this realm. It's a difficult concept to grasp, of course, but it would be sort of like someone who is glowing, opening a door and walking into a previously unlighted room. Suddenly there is light in the whole room and its source is the person who walked in.

Why do you feel that God, who created a fully formed man, did not also give him knowledge of certain things. Do you know that birds have an innate and inborn nature to fly south? It is not something that they are taught. Scientists have taken bird eggs and separated them from their parents. These eggs contain a bird embryo whose brain began with the introduction of sperm into the egg from the parents nesting. The brain of these birds has never had any contact with other birds or its parents other than the fact that it 'began' from the work of the parents nesting. Yet, this bird, when it matures will orient itself south when it is time for migration. It will do this even if it is a lone singular bird that has never had any interaction with other birds its entire existence. Even if the confined space that it is in, say a box or whole room without any windows or other outside source that would give the bird any indication of direction, is turned around, the bird will soon orient itself to the south again.

It would seem that this is not something the bird is taught, but is a knowledge that God gave unto certain birds. They are born and as their brains grow that knowledge and desire to migrate and the direction they should go is already there in their brain. So, if God wanted to be able to communicate with Adam, would He not have had to give Adam some abilities to communicate? Are we to believe that God created Adam and then said to Himself, "Oh great, now I've got to teach him to talk."

As to 'finding' the garden of Eden. It's right here on the earth. What we can't find are the angelic cherubim. Because we can't find the angelic cherubim, then we can't know we are in the garden when we are there. The Scriptures are fairly clear that the garden was in the area of the headwaters of the four rivers called the Tigris, Pishon, Euphrates and Gihon. We still have the two rivers Tigris and Euphrates and so the garden would have been somewhere above where these rivers start. We don't know the size of the garden and it may have been quite a large area. However, the only indication that mortal man would have, to know that he is in the garden, would be the angelic cherubim and we don't have the eyes to see angels unless God chooses to unblind our eyes to see them. One other consideration is that since the days of the garden, there has also been the flood. It is completely possible that the flood washed away any indication of the garden and that the cherubim have since been removed from their place as there is now no need to protect the 'tree of life'. The creating of the flood, whereby all the springs of the deep opened, may have even changed some of the geographical landmarks that we would have had to find Eden, but please believe that the dirt that was once Eden is still here upon the earth. We just have no way of knowing exactly where it is.

Just things to consider, but for God, there is always a way that He can make things happen that sound most impossible and improbable to us, but are nonetheless, true. He is, as the Scriptures also declare, the God who can do all things. With God all things are possible. So, my encouragement, be in prayer and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit and Scriptures that you might merely gain some understanding of just exactly what the power and glory of God is. He is not like a man. He is not like us. He literally set the foundations of the earth and the universe in place. He merely spoke and things became and they became to exist perfect. Adam knew how to communicate because that is a part of the perfectness in how he was created.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

miamited said:

....The Scriptures are fairly clear that the garden was in the area of the headwaters of the four rivers called the Tigris, Pishon, Euphrates and Gihon. We still have the two rivers Tigris and Euphrates and so the garden would have been somewhere above where these rivers start. We don't know the size of the garden and it may have been quite a large area. However, the only indication that mortal man would have, to know that he is in the garden, would be the angelic cherubim and we don't have the eyes to see angels unless God chooses to unblind our eyes to see them. One other consideration is that since the days of the garden, there has also been the flood. It is completely possible that the flood washed away any indication of the garden and that the cherubim have since been removed from their place as there is now no need to protect the 'tree of life'. The creating of the flood, whereby all the springs of the deep opened, may have even changed some of the geographical landmarks that we would have had to find Eden, but please believe that the dirt that was once Eden is still here upon the earth. We just have no way of knowing exactly where it is.....

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I'm not sure what you're saying . I would just say that the antediluvian Tigris and Euphrates are gone, and in no way resemble the two rivers today that were named after them. In fact we rarely see rivers splitting today. Most converge. this article may be helpful: Where was Eden located?

SkyWriting said:

Scripture doesn't fit well with the world I call reality around me....

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I realize this, and believe you're missing a blessing. The only way you'll see the world God wanted you to see, is to take off the evolutionary glasses, and put on biblical glasses.

Calminian said:

I'm not sure what you're saying . I would just say that the antediluvian Tigris and Euphrates are gone, and in no way resemble the two rivers today that were named after them. In fact we rarely see rivers splitting today. Most converge. this article may be helpful: Where was Eden located?

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Hi Cal,

That's pretty much exactly what I was saying. The dirt that made up Eden is still here, but we won't be able to recognize it as being Eden because of the changes of time and the changes wrought upon the earth by the flood. The only way we could even possibly know where Eden was would be to find two cherubim standing guard over a plot of land and we can't see angels under normal circumstances.

As far as water splitting into rivers, if water starts at top of a great mountain it may split into several tributaries as it travels down the mountain. We're not talking about rivers splitting here, but the headwater, or highest place that the water starts from, becoming different rivers as it travels down. In my area of the foothills of South Carolina we have mountains and when a drop of rain falls on the top of a mountain it begins a journey down as a small rivulet of water between rocks. At some place a rock in the middle of that small rivulet may turn some water down one path on down the mountain and another other waters of that same rivulet go another path. At this point they are, at most small creeks. As more water joins in these creeks become more swollen and eventually join with water from other mountain rivulets to make a small stream and then several of them join together to make a river. All starting from where that single rain drop came down on the top of the mountain.

According to the Scriptures, the headwaters, or beginning place of the water of the rivers lying further down stream, split into four streams that became rivers. These headwaters may well have been an underground fissure. An underground spring that came up at some point upon the dry ground and as that spring became larger and more water was pumped up out of the earth, the water divided into what ultimately became four different rivers.

God bless you.
In Christ, Ted

miamited said:

Why do you feel that God, who created a fully formed man, did not also give him knowledge of certain things.

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He did, but I needed instruction because my world is different than Creation week.

miamited said:

Do you know that birds have an innate and inborn nature to fly south? It is not something that they are taught. Scientists have taken bird eggs and separated them from their parents. These eggs contain a bird embryo whose brain began with the introduction of sperm into the egg from the parents nesting. The brain of these birds has never had any contact with other birds or its parents other than the fact that it 'began' from the work of the parents nesting. Yet, this bird, when it matures will orient itself south when it is time for migration. It will do this even if it is a lone singular bird that has never had any interaction with other birds its entire existence. Even if the confined space that it is in, say a box or whole room without any windows or other outside source that would give the bird any indication of direction, is turned around, the bird will soon orient itself to the south again.

It would seem that this is not something the bird is taught, but is a knowledge that God gave unto certain birds. They are born and as their brains grow that knowledge and desire to migrate and the direction they should go is already there in their brain. So, if God wanted to be able to communicate with Adam, would He not have had to give Adam some abilities to communicate? Are we to believe that God created Adam and then said to Himself, "Oh great, now I've got to teach him to talk."

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But it did work that way with me because I live in reality. Not the same experience as Creation Week.

miamited said:

As to 'finding' the garden of Eden. It's right here on the earth. What we can't find are the angelic cherubim. Because we can't find the angelic cherubim, then we can't know we are in the garden when we are there. The Scriptures are fairly clear that the garden was in the area of the headwaters of the four rivers called the Tigris, Pishon, Euphrates and Gihon. We still have the two rivers Tigris and Euphrates and so the garden would have been somewhere above where these rivers start. We don't know the size of the garden and it may have been quite a large area. However, the only indication that mortal man would have, to know that he is in the garden, would be the angelic cherubim and we don't have the eyes to see angels unless God chooses to unblind our eyes to see them. One other consideration is that since the days of the garden, there has also been the flood. It is completely possible that the flood washed away any indication of the garden and that the cherubim have since been removed from their place as there is now no need to protect the 'tree of life'. The creating of the flood, whereby all the springs of the deep opened, may have even changed some of the geographical landmarks that we would have had to find Eden, but please believe that the dirt that was once Eden is still here upon the earth. We just have no way of knowing exactly where it is.

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Because it is not a place we can touch or even be allowed to visit:

22 And the Lord God said, “The man has now become like one of us, knowing good and evil. He must not be allowed to reach out his hand and take also from the tree of life and eat, and live forever.”
23 So the Lord God banished him from the Garden of Eden to work the ground from which he had been taken.
24 After he drove the man out, he placed on the east side of the Garden of Eden cherubim and a flaming sword flashing back and forth to guard the way to the tree of life.

miamited said:

Just things to consider, but for God, there is always a way that He can make things happen that sound most impossible and improbable to us, but are nonetheless, true. He is, as the Scriptures also declare, the God who can do all things. With God all things are possible. So, my encouragement, be in prayer and seek the guidance of the Holy Spirit and Scriptures that you might merely gain some understanding of just exactly what the power and glory of God is. He is not like a man. He is not like us. He literally set the foundations of the earth and the universe in place. He merely spoke and things became and they became to exist perfect. Adam knew how to communicate because that is a part of the perfectness in how he was created.

Click to expand...

But no human has that ability today. God does not walk with us in the Garden.
Note that God did not leave the garden where He walked. Adam was banished from the garden.

"There", the place where Adam and God walked side by side and food was available without tilling the soil....."there" is not here. We have been banished from the Garden. The Garden was the original Heaven before we spoiled it permanently.

Now, the entire mess needs to be thrown into the lake of fire and destroyed along with those who do not accept God, the Creator.

Calminian said:

I realize this, and believe you're missing a blessing. The only way you'll see the world God wanted you to see, is to take off the evolutionary glasses, and put on biblical glasses.

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The scriptures are inerrant in every translation.

mark kennedy said:

Lastly, there are idols which have immigrated into men's minds from the various dogmas of philosophies, and also from wrong laws of demonstration. These I call Idols of the Theater; because in my judgment all the received systems are but so many stage-plays. (Francis Bacon, "The Idols of the Mind")​

There are some misconceptions about the Genesis 1 account of creation:

The Age of the Earth is Irrelevant:

First of all, the passage never tells us when the creation of the heavens and the earth occurred. Genesis 1:1 simple says God created the 'heavens and the earth' in the beginning. That means that the age of the earth and the universe is irrelevant to the doctrine of creation.

Genesis is an Historical Narrative:

No where in Genesis is there the slightest indication that it can be interpreted figuratively. The name of the book is derived from the genealogies:

Geneology: In Hebrew the term for genealogy or pedigree is "the book of the generations;" and because the oldest histories were usually drawn up on a genealogical basis, the expression often extended to the whole history, as is the case with the Gospel of St. Matthew, where "the book of the generation of Jesus Christ" includes the whole history contained in that Gospel. (Smith's Bible Dictionary)

So Genesis 5:1, "the book of the generations of Adam," wherein his descendants are traced down to Noah; Genesis 6:9, "the generations of Noah," the history of Noah and his sons; Genesis 10:1, "the generations of the sons of Noah," Shem, Ham, and Japhet, the oldest and most precious existing ethnological record; Genesis 11:10-26 "the generations of Shem," Genesis 11:27 "the generations of Terah," Abram's father; Genesis 25:12 "the generations of Ishmael," Genesis 25:19 "the generations of Isaac"; Genesis 36:1, "the generations of Esau"; Genesis 37:2, "the generations of Jacob"; Genesis 35:22-26, "the sons of Jacob," etc., repeated Exodus 1:1-5; also Exodus 46:8, a genealogical census of Israel when Jacob came down to Egypt; repeated in Exodus 6:16, etc., probably transcribed from a document, for the first part concerning Reuben and Simeon is quoted though Levi is the only tribe in question. (Fausset's Bible Dictionary)​

Creation from Nothing:

Genesis 1 uses a special word to describe God's creation of the 'heavens and the earth' (Gen 1:1), life (Gen 1:21) and man (Used 3 times in Gen 1:27). That word is 'bara' (bara' Strong's H1254 בָּרָא ) the Hebrew Qal form means: To shape, fashion, create (always with God as subject).

The Hebrew word 'baw-raw' (H1254 בּרא bârâ') is used in the absolute sense and it means creation ex nihilo which means out of nothing, always in reference to God and mostly found in Genesis and Isaiah:

Created, Used 33 times: Gen:1:1, Gen:1:21, Gen:1:27 (3), Gen:2:3-4 (2), Gen:5:1-2 (3), Gen:6:7, Deu:4:32, Psa:89:12, Psa:102:18, Psa:104:30, Psa:148:5, Isa:40:26, Isa:41:20, Isa:42:5, Isa:43:1, Isa:45:7-8 (2), Isa:45:12, Isa:45:18 (2), Isa:48:7, Isa:54:16 (2), Jer:31:22, Eze:21:30, Eze:28:13, Eze:28:15, Mal:2:10 (Strong's)​

Day Means Day

yôm (yome Strong's H3117 יום ) - From an unused root meaning to be hot; a day (as the warm hours), whether literally (from sunrise to sunset, or from one sunset to the next), or figuratively (a space of time defined by an associated term), (often used adverbially)

Brown-Driver-Briggs' Hebrew Definitions יום: From an unused root meaning to be hot. Day (as opposed to night), or day (24 hour period) as defined by evening and morning in Genesis 1​

1. And the evening and the morning were the first day. (Gen. 1:5)
2. And the evening and the morning were the second day. (Gen. 1:8)
3. And the evening and the morning were the third day. (Gen. 1:13)
4. And the evening and the morning were the fourth day. (Gen. 1:19)
5. And the evening and the morning were the fifth day. (Gen. 1:23)
6. And the evening and the morning were the sixth day. (Gen. 1:31)
7. And on the seventh day God ended his work which he had made (Gen. 2:2)

Conclusively and definitively proving that evening plus morning equals one day, seven days equals one week, thus Creation Week.

The Sun was Created in Genesis 1:1

Creationists commonly believe the sun was created on day 4, that simply doesn't stand up to a sound exposition of the text. The word used isn't 'bara' which would indicate the sun was created from nothing. Instead the passage says God 'made' (Strong's H6213 `asah עָשָׂה ) the sun and the moon to be lights in the heavens.

Basically it's saying God made `asah (H6213), the sun to rule the day and the moon to rule the night. That doesn't mean he brought them into existence but the idea is that he made them visible enough that they could 'rule' the day and night. The stars underwent no actual changes but were set, 'nathan' ( נָתַן nä·than' Strong's H1443) in the heavens, probably based on the same clearing of clouds or whatever atmospheric changes were required.

If God were bringing the sun, moon and stars into existence the word used would have been 'bara', (H1254). Everything in the Genesis 1 account is written from the face of the earth, that's the perspective the narration describes creation from.

All Christians are Creationists:

Nearly half of the Nicene Creed discusses the creation:

We believe in one God,
the Father, the Almighty,
maker of heaven and earth,
of all that is, seen and unseen.

We believe in one Lord, Jesus Christ,
the only Son of God,
eternally begotten of the Father,
God from God, light from light,
true God from true God,
begotten, not made,
of one Being with the Father;
through him all things were made.
For us and for our salvation
he came down from heaven, (Nicene Creed)​

Does anyone seriously think that we should take creation figuratively because if we are then why wouldn't we take the Incarnation figuratively since they are inextricably linked? That doesn't even scratch the surface, there is original sin, the New Testament witness and the many absurdities of Darwinian logic. The purpose of this post is to open up the Genesis account of creation, to show how it's essential Christian doctrine, and clear up a few misconceptions.

The thread is intended for Creationists and my hope is that we will get a chance to study Genesis 1 together. I've been at this for years and I'm convinced that the secular world has focused on the doctrine of Creation because so much of redemptive history and the Gospel is inextricably linked to it. Just as God created the heavens and the earth the promise of the Gospel is that you can be a new creation (John 3:3, 16).

I have my differences with the Roman Catholic Church but I think this quote from Pope Benedict XVI is profoundly insightful:

"To omit the creation would be to misunderstand the very history of God with men, to diminish it, to lose sight of its true order of greatness..."The sweep of history established by God reaches back to the origins, back to creation...If man were merely a random product of evolution in some place on the margins of the universe, then his life would make no sense or might even be a chance of nature," he said. "But no, Reason is there at the beginning: creative, divine Reason. Faith in God and in the events of salvation history must necessarily begin with a belief in God's role as Creator, says Benedict XVI" (VATICAN CITY, APRIL 23, 2011, Zenit.org)​

Grace and peace,
Mark

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Nice !

Thanks for sharing that.

in Christ,

Bob

Creation-ists
Virgin birth-ists
Bodily-resurrection-ists
Literal-second-Coming-ists
literal-Lake-of-Fire-ists

Can all rejoice in consistency. All those Bible historic accounts - CAN be trusted!

And so also those predictions about future events.

in Christ,

Bob