Israel will be saved

God only promised to save a remnant of Jews, which is what happened in the 1st century and caused the destruction of Jerusalem in A.D. 70 for all the righteous blood spilt over centuries.

Jesus gave Israel 40 years to repent. Only a remnant believed in Christ and were saved.

With the destruction of Jerusalem A.D. 70, the Jews ceased to exist as God's chosen people, Christ ripped away circumcision, Christ removed the temple and its animal sacrifices in order to establish His everlasting covenant, Christ replaced the "ministration of death" with His "ministration of righteousness", Christ ripped away the distinction between Jew and Gentile making them equals in the body of Christ, Christ is the seed that blessed the world and brought all peoples no matter their ethnic background into the promises and inheritance of Abraham, etc. All Christians are children of Abraham, children of the promise, and inheritors of Abraham's blessings.

Thus, analogy of the Olive Tree, Jews (followers of circumcision after the flesh and the Mosaic Law/Talmud) whom were once the head are now the tail, Gentiles whom were once the tail are now the head (with spiritually circumcised Jews, Christian Jews).

All of Israel is saved, because Israel is not completely Jewish any more. Israel is now made-up of a Jewish remnant and all the Gentiles that have believed. Thus, ALL OF ISRAEL IS SAVED, but only whom God has elected to save!!!!!

Only God's elect belongs to this new Israel.

The All of Israel spoken of in Romans is the Olive Tree!

Who is in the Olive Tree? Only God's elect belongs on the Olive Tree, the rest were blinded and don't matter anymore. BECAUSE they ain't God's elect to begin with!

gospelfer said:

The logical failure of the preterist position is that it attempts to attack a story with principles. A story cannot be undone by principles. You can only deny the story (or try to ignore it). But all prophecy upholds this story of the Jews' national return. Furthermore, none of your principles (the universality of the new covenant) act as objections to this story coming true as a historical matter.

So what you say is true. All believers are children of Abraham, and all are in the new spiritual Israel. Nevertheless, the prophetic national story of the Jew will still come to pass. Paul states it quite clearly here -- and you fail to address Paul's story.

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The Remnant = God's Elect = All of whom God has chosen to save amongst the ethnical Jews.

Paul isn't speaking about a national salvation, but is speaking of electoral salvation!

In other words, God has saved all of His elect, not that God has saved every Jew imaginable under His blessed sun (no, many Jews have chosen to reject him).

That is why Paul brings up the fact about Elijah and the priests of Baal and the 7,000 elect remnant that didn't bow to Baal.

In other words, ethnic Jewry has never been wholly condemned, there will always be an elect remnant of Jewry preserved through all generations.

But the Jewry that rejects Christ, they are being trimmed off the Olive Tree while at that same moment Gentiles that accept Christ are being grafted onto that same Olive Tree. But if that Jewry that has rejected Christ, turns and changes their ways and accepts Christ, they will be regrafted to the Olive Tree.

gospelfer said:

Random, you simply ignore what Paul actually says.

11:25 -- Lest you be wise in your own sight, I do not want you to be unaware of this mystery, brothers: a partial hardening has come upon Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles has come in.

Yes, actual salvation is reserved to the remnant. But this remnant will be collected and returned to the land. That is prophecy's story. And that is what Paul says. You are simply denying the story presented.

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What does it say anywhere that they will be collected and returned to the land, you are adding to God's word!

The Land is now immaterial because circumcision and ethnics and the Law is now immaterial.

cf.

And the uncircumcised man child whose flesh of his foreskin is not circumcised, that soul shall be cut off from his people; he hath broken my covenant.

Gen. 17:14

How could there be any land promises anymore, if there are no more circumcision, no more Jewry, and no more Mosaic Law?

Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

Colossians 3:11

But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not stedfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away: How shall not the ministration of the spirit be rather glorious? For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth. For if that which is done away was glorious, much more that which remaineth is glorious.

Seeing then that we have such hope, we use great plainness of speech: And not as Moses, which put a vail over his face, that the children of Israel could not stedfastly look to the end of that which is abolished:

2 Corinthians 3:7-13

The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.

For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. The last enemy to be destroyed is death.

1 Corinthians 15:56, 25-26

bump, added more verses!

Paul means there is hardening to the end of time. He's trying to explain (again) the answer to 3:3, repeated in the beginning of 9. Why don't more--or all--of them believe with all their opportunities and background? Because it is never automatically linked to an ethnos, etc. There are just some from each ethnos , and it will always be so.

Interplanner said:

Paul means there is hardening to the end of time. He's trying to explain (again) the answer to 3:3, repeated in the beginning of 9. Why don't more--or all--of them believe with all their opportunities and background? Because it is never automatically linked to an ethnos, etc. There are just some from each ethnos , and it will always be so.

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Hey Inter, hope all is well with you.

As to your above, my own understanding is that, as with Romans 9-11, Romans 3 is actually relating the exact opposite of what you assert.

Romans 3:

3 What advantage then hath the Jew? or what profit is there of circumcision?

2 Much every way: chiefly, because that unto them were committed the oracles of God.

3 For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?

In others words, the Jew has the advantage in the face of what appears to some the end of their promise - he has the advantage in the face of that, that God has committed much unto him that the unbelief of some can not render inoperable. It will come to pass.

I realize you disagree.

In this, I continue to find interesting that God ensured a consistent witness as to His yet future dealings in the Apostle of the Gentiles.

The very people many of which adamantly refuse this truth.

Thus, as the Circumcision Apostles faded into the background, this Apostle of the Gentiles continues to this very day to point out their nation's aspect of God's faithfulness - as to His promise to Abraham concerning His multiplied seed.

This, no matter how many centuries go by, nor how many Gentiles fail to see and or acknowledge this truth.

Or as this Apostle of the Gentiles as inspired to relate:

"For what if some did not believe? shall their unbelief make the faith of God without effect?"

The best to you nonetheless, enjoy your Sunday.

In Romans chapter 9 the Apostle Paul uses the example of the remnant to show the difference between those Israelites who were of the Flesh only and those who were of the promise.

During the time of Elijah, 7,000 Israelites would not bow the knee to Baal and remained faithful to God's Plan.
However, the majority of the Israelites of the time did worship Baal and were destroyed.

Those who claim that all of the Israelites will come to salvation at the end of Romans chapter 11 are attempting to reverse what Paul said in the earlier chapters.
They are attempting to make Paul talk out of both sides of his mouth at the same time.

Romans 11


Rom 11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.
Christ is the firstfruit.

Co 15:23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


Rom 11:17 And if some of the branches be broken off, and thou, being a wild olive tree, wert graffed in among them, and with them partakest of the root and fatness of the olive tree;
Who are the branches broken off if they are not unbelieving Israelites.
They cannot be broken off of the Church, because they were never part of it.

Rom 11:18 Boast not against the branches. But if thou boast, thou bearest not the root, but the root thee.

Rom 11:19 Thou wilt say then, The branches were broken off, that I might be graffed in.

Rom 11:20 Well; because of unbelief they were broken off, and thou standest by faith. Be not highminded, but fear:
They were broken off because they did not believe in Christ.

Rom 11:21 For if God spared not the natural branches, take heed lest he also spare not thee.

Rom 11:22 Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

Rom 11:23 And they also, if they abide not still in unbelief, shall be graffed in: for God is able to graff them in again.
The only way they can be grafted back into the Olive Tree is through faith in Christ. They have been cut off from the root.
What happens to branches broken off of a tree?

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree? The wild branches of the believing Gentiles were grafted in among the cultivated branches of believing Israelites.

Rom 11:25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
Part of Israel has been blinded. However, the other part has not been blinded and has come to faith in Christ.
This blindness will continue until Christ returns.


Rom 11:26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
The Greek word "houto" means "in this manner", which refers back to how they may be grafted back into the Olive Tree in verse 23.

Rom 11:27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
This is the New Covenant, which replaced the Old Covenant.

Rom 11:28 As concerning the gospel, they are enemies for your sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sakes.
Those broken off have become enemies and will persecute the first Christians, including Paul.
The election are those Israelites who have accepted Christ as their Messiah.
Almost all of the first Christians were Jews.

When viewed in the context of the following verses, the scripture above cannot mean something different than the example of the Baal worshippers.

Rom 9:6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
(All of Jacob's descendants are not included in Israel of the Promise.)

Rom 9:8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.
(Being a descendant of Jacob does not make one a child of God.)

Gal 3:16 Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ. The promise is made to the One seed, not the many seeds.

Gal 3:26 For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:27 For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.

Gal 3:28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus.

Gal 3:29 And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

We are the seed of Abraham, if we are in-Christ..

Therefore we are part of the remant of believing Israelites.

There has never been any type of National Salvation. It has always been through the faith of individuals, instead of the whole nation.

At the Second Coming the ungodly will be destroyed, leaving only the faithful remnant, just as it occurred with those who would not bow down to Baal.

.

After the crucifixion up until the tribulation of Jerusalem the Christians were going everywhere proclaiming that Jesus was the true Messiah. The Jews' rebuttal to this claim was the following...

"If Jesus was the true Messiah then why was not all of Jerusalem saved?"

The Jews were looking for a Messiah that was a Military messiah that would forcefully deliver them from the control of the Romans. So the Jews' logic was that Jesus had not set them free from Roman domination and control - therefore He couldn't have been the true Messiah. Paul explains this as it was not physical "Salvation" that God was working toward but rather "Spiritual" salvation that was His goal. The New Covenant. The spiritual is eternal. The physical is temporal.

"What does it say anywhere that they will be collected and returned to the land, you are adding to God's word!"


Are you ignoring His word? [Isaiah 11]

If you have a Bible look in the OT section .... your Bible is one book and all that is written must be inquired for truth

You essentially contradict the prophet point by point

And the same with this one [Ezekiel 36]

The Lord does not make promises and retract .... and He explains in detail His continued and future intents for His nation of Israel .... and why

What say you?

its very simple Straightshot. You look through the NT for how it uses the OT. There are 2500 of them. None of them validate a future place in the land or a future need for Judaism (as far as I know Israel under the old covenant qualifies as Judaism).

The two texts usually called out for the future of the land are:
1, Lk 21 Jerusalem will be trampled (from AD 70) until the times of the Gentiles are fulfilled.
2, Rom 11 Israel is hardened in part until the full number of Gentiles comes in, and so all Israel will be saved

First note the parallel contingency, until. The assumption of many people who are not very familiar with the NT is that we had plan A and now have plan B, but B only runs until this point and then goes back to A. The problem with this view is that it wasn't even what Judaism itself thought. The 'times of the Gentiles' meant there was a mission to the nations coming when Messiah came, and that was the new age or epoch. Judaism thought it had already started this (Mt23:15), but Jesus dismissed that because it all hinged on the Law.

Even in normal grammar, 'until' does not guarantee a reversion to a plan A. Try this:
Parent to babysitter: no TV until we get back after this evening's meeting. That meant there was no TV watching in the parent's absence. When they got back they would decide, but there was no guarantee even then. It meant 'for the duration.'

But second is more important. The nature of until (which can mean for the duration) is explained in Rom 11. v26's "And so..." is explaining the previous. It is kai houtos and it means "in this manner". What is in this manner? The "saving" of Israel; it's the Israel Paul had been speaking of since 9:6 (although he does use both ethnos and the Christian people as definitions). But what is the saving? It is faith in the Gospel, as explained by the Isaiah verses. The Deliverer came, godlessness turned away through a very vital faith, and the new covenant came in which the debt of sin is taken away.

The paragraph before all this was saying that only people who have faith are God's olive tree; natural or wild or grafted branches don't guarantee anything. So here is what v25 is saying:

"As I (Paul) have been saying, there is no guarantee that all the ethnos of Israel automatically believes. That's humbling for a Gentile to realize, because at least Israel has a 'head start.' Israel's partial hardness (that we have been discussing since Rom 3:3) will continue on through Gentile age; some will believe, yes, but not the whole ethnos. Because God doesn't work in whole ethnos anymore. His "Israel" is both Jew and Gentile, if a person has faith in Christ's Gospel, and God doesn't need to do anything in a holy land or at a temple. All that is fulfilled in Christ. Justification from sins through Christ's Gospel is what it means--what Isaiah meant--to be saved.

"its very simple Straightshot. You look through the NT for how it uses the OT"


Negative .... your view is the convenient way of ignoring vast amounts of scripture because you want to create your own religion

You do not fool me with your ambition

The Lord's Word is one continuous message from Genesis to Revelation

.... even for Israel, past and future .... of which holds the lion's share of recorded truth .... the prophets, the apostles .... and the Lord Himself

In fact, just the opposite is true of your idea that "NT" trumps and interprets the "OT" according to your dictates

Your "Jesus" is not mine planner

Many do what you have done in the most perverted ways over the centuries and it is no wonder that non-Christians want nothing to do with the same