Pesach...something to think about

ArmyMatt · Apr 6, 2015

the mission near Ft Campbell's matushka was raised Jewish, so she always reads the Agape Vespers in Hebrew, and at State College I think one year we used Yiddish. it's there if you want to use it.

All4Christ · Apr 6, 2015

ArmyMatt said:
the mission near Ft Campbell's matushka was raised Jewish, so she always reads the Agape Vespers in Hebrew, and at State College I think one year we used Yiddish. it's there if you want to use it.

I've mentioned it to our choir director before, and it wasn't much enthusiasm about having a version of it. Perhaps if I find a version written already, we could include it. It's just curious that it isn't one of the ones typically used when all the languages for Christ is Risen is handed out, etc. Perhaps they would add it to the list if I give the translation to them.

That's good to hear about a mission that has that. I'd love to go sometime to hear it.

ArmyMatt · Apr 6, 2015

maybe you could do it for Agape Vespers?

All4Christ · Apr 6, 2015

ArmyMatt said:
maybe you could do it for Agape Vespers?

I'll check with Father on that...it would be great to have that included at the Agape Vespers. Also, I just did a search for a Hebrew version of the music for Christ is Risen and found this - http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...r-pashi-na-ivrite-ison-bezukladnikov-va_0.pdf

I could make an easier transliteration based on the Hebrew to replace the (Slavic?) letters they use on the music. Perhaps we can include this version of the music as well, since there is something already written. I'll send this to our choir director. Thanks, Matt!

ArmyMatt · Apr 6, 2015

no probs!

rusmeister · Apr 6, 2015

All4Christ said:
I have always wondered why we have so many languages when we sing Christ is Risen (everything from African languages, to the Aleut, to the Celtic language, and a myriad of ones I can't even place the language), yet we never have anything related to Hebrew or Aramaic, despite the relationship to it with Jesus, etc. I always wished that when we read 1 John - or have all the languages for Christ is Risen, that we would at least include Hebrew. I don't know of any Orthodox Churches that do that though. I have family members that live in Israel and are Jewish, so it does have some significance to me with that connection.

It's almost as if - in the efforts to differentiate the Orthodox Christian Church from Judaism, that we completely avoid anything related to that, despite our connection to Slavic, Greek, Serbian, etc. Even the church in Jerusalem uses Arabic mostly (I think) rather than Hebrew.

Any thoughts or insight?

I have no objection to Hebrew in principle, A4C. Only to an insistent use of it to English speakers. If I начинаю speak по-русски, Russophiles may enjoy deciphering what I say, but people who aren't familiar with or particularly interested in Russian are going to feel досаду.

If you go to Rome, do as the Romans do. Speak Latin in 300 AD, and Italian in 2000. In Russia, you should do your best to honor the locals by speaking their language. In Israel, I think Hebrew highly appropriate, as well as on a forum for Hebrew speakers.

As to your question, it is fairly obvious to me that Orthodoxy has been preserved in the languages of cultures where it predominated. Thus, Russian and Greek enjoy special recognition - but I wouldn't go around in my posts tossing out even Russian terms without translating them and explaining their context. I wouldn't write as if everybody knew the terms. Anyway, I think I've said all there is to say. 'Nuff said.

All4Christ · Apr 6, 2015

rusmeister said:
I have no objection to Hebrew in principle, A4C. Only to an insistent use of it to English speakers. If I начинаю speak по-русски, Russophiles may enjoy deciphering what I say, but people who aren't familiar with or particularly interested in Russian are going to feel досаду. If you go to Rome, do as the Romans do. Speak Latin in 300 AD, and Italian in 2000. In Russia, you should do your best to honor the locals by speaking their language. In Israel, I think Hebrew highly appropriate, as well as on a forum for Hebrew speakers. As to your question, it is fairly obvious to me that Orthodoxy has been preserved in the languages of cultures where it predominated. Thus, Russian and Greek enjoy special recognition - but I wouldn't go around in my posts tossing out even Russian terms without translating them and explaining their context. I wouldn't write as if everybody knew the terms. Anyway, I think I've said all there is to say. 'Nuff said.

I wasn't really saying that in contradiction towards what you were saying

It just reminded me about the things I mentioned in the post. I would agree that the languages of the major jurisdictions of Orthodoxy have a special place...though not necessarily the languages of all areas of strong Orthodox influence. Most strongly Orthodox regions use either Slavonic, Greek or Arabic as the main language...even if they aren't from that region. I've always struggled some with this, which is why I chose a parish that has the service in English (with the exception of some verses in Slavonic or Greek, like you mentioned your church does).

That said, I agree that some words just don't have appropriate English translations, in which case we use the established verbiage from the church, in most cases the Greek. English is a very limited language, imho. Some phrases just don't have an equivalent.

In the case of Pascha, I would say that the English 'Easter' translation doesn't cover the full meaning as well as Pascha, considering we are talking about the Paschal lamb, the "passing over" of death by Christ's death and resurrection, etc. etc. Many (if not most) languages preserve the term Pascha in their language's transliteration...Pascua, Paska, etc.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Apr 6, 2015

All4Christ said:
I have always wondered why we have so many languages when we sing Christ is Risen (everything from African languages, to the Aleut, to the Celtic language, and a myriad of ones I can't even place the language), yet we never have anything related to Hebrew or Aramaic, despite the relationship to it with Jesus, etc. I always wished that when we read 1 John - or have all the languages for Christ is Risen, that we would at least include Hebrew. I don't know of any Orthodox Churches that do that though. I have family members that live in Israel and are Jewish, so it does have some significance to me with that connection.

It's almost as if - in the efforts to differentiate the Orthodox Christian Church from Judaism, that we completely avoid anything related to that, despite our connection to Slavic, Greek, Serbian, etc. Even the church in Jerusalem uses Arabic mostly (I think) rather than Hebrew.

Any thoughts or insight?

Laura, you may want to contact Av Aleksandr. He celebrates in Hebrew.

Hebrew Liturgies Resound in Jerusalem

https://www.facebook.com/av.aleksandr?ref=pymk

All4Christ · Apr 6, 2015

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Laura, you may want to contact Av Aleksandr. He celebrates in Hebrew. Hebrew Liturgies Resound in Jerusalem https://www.facebook.com/av.aleksandr?ref=pymk

Thank you for the links! It's beautiful. I'd love to visit his parish when I visit my family someday!

prodromos · Apr 6, 2015

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Understand Prodromos, but it still has a pagan
origin

terms like "homoousion"are pagan in origin and we have no problem using them.

and has nothing to do with the words Passover or Pascha.

Not the words, no, but the events of Christ's crucifixion, burial and resurrection, certainly.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Apr 6, 2015

prodromos said:
terms like "homoousion"are pagan in origin and we have no problem using them.

Not the words, no, but the events of Christ's crucifixion, burial and resurrection, certainly.

Homoousion is just a Greek word meaning same essence. Nothing overtly pagan. Theotokos is the same. Easter on the other hand DOES have a pagan origin. It is a pagan name/term the west uses now for Christ's resurrection.

Homoousios - OrthodoxWiki

prodromos · Apr 6, 2015

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Homoousion is just a Greek word meaning same essence. Nothing overtly pagan. Theotokos is the same. Easter on the other hand DOES have a pagan origin. It is a pagan name/term the west uses now for Christ's resurrection.

What is overtly pagan about an Old Teutonic German word meaning "resurrection"?

Homoousios - OrthodoxWiki

Thanks for the link, but I have delved a lot deeper than wikipedia in my own research on the subject.

Yeshua HaDerekh · Apr 7, 2015

prodromos said:
What is overtly pagan about an Old Teutonic German word meaning "resurrection"?

Thanks for the link, but I have delved a lot deeper than wikipedia in my own research on the subject.

Because that word's origin was from pagan sun worship and spring goddess. Ishtar, Ostare, etc...It means bright or dawn. I just put up the wiki link so others here who may not know the meaning could read about it.

Deuteronomy 30-32
Take heed to thyself that thou be not snared by following them, after that they be destroyed from before thee; and that thou enquire not after their gods, saying, how did these nations serve their gods? even so will I do likewise.

Thou shalt not do so unto the LORD thy God: for every abomination to the LORD, which he hateth, have they done unto their gods; for even their sons and their daughters they have burnt in the fire to their gods.

What thing soever I command you, observe to do it: thou shalt not add thereto, nor diminish from it.

Gxg (G²) · Apr 7, 2015

Yeshua HaDerekh said:
Yeshua celebrated the annual appointed feasts, the apostles did likewise, ALL being Jews. There is no evidence that early Jewish believers did not either. A Jew does not "become" a Christian. Yeshua was the promised JEWISH Messiah. Implying belief in their own promised Messiah somehow converted them to a new religion is ridiculous.

Regarding the term "Easter"...it is in no way any kind of translation of either the term Passover, Pesach, Pesakh or Pascha. That may be the way it is being used but it is not originally the definition of that word. The origin was the pagan goddess of spring Oestre.

It IS Pascha not Easter!

The day that Chametz is put away is historically the 14th, the preparation day. The seder is held on the night of the 14th which is actually the beginning of the 15th, Passover. Both Pascha and Pentecost are JEWISH words. Pentecost or Shavuot, was held 50 days after the counting of the omer began.

Historically, it was on the 14th the lambs were killed. Yeshua likely held His seder the night before if He was to die on the day the lambs were killed. Either way, John, Polycarp and the east held Passover as a memorial of the death of Yeshua as He commanded them. It says, In the first month, on the 14th day of the month at twilight is the Lords Passover. Then on the 15th day of the same month there is the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

True...

GregConstantine · Apr 7, 2015

"Because that word's origin was from pagan sun worship and spring goddess"

So are the days of the week in English and the Romance languages (with the exception of Portuguese), so what?

ArmyMatt · Apr 7, 2015

GregConstantine said:
"Because that word's origin was from pagan sun worship and spring goddess"

So are the days of the week in English and the Romance languages (with the exception of Portuguese), so what?

our months as well.

can't say January (god Janus), February (maybe the god Februus), March (the god Mars), May (possibly the goddess Maiesta), June (the goddess Juno), July (the deified Julius Caesar), or August (deified Caesar Augustus) because they all are named after pagan gods.

can't even call holy saint Emperors Tsars either because that is pagan in origin.

GregConstantine · Apr 7, 2015

Pascha is pascha, regardless of whether or not we call it Pascha, Easter, or gooblydywock.

GregConstantine · Apr 7, 2015

"Av Aleksandr"

Who is that? Do you mean Fr Alexsandr?

All4Christ · Apr 7, 2015

GregConstantine said:
"Av Aleksandr" Who is that? Do you mean Fr Alexsandr?

Hebrew אָב= Father...similar to Abba, etc.

GregConstantine · Apr 7, 2015

I know all4Christ, I'm making a specific point by asking him that. See the other responses in this tread.

Pesach...something to think about

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