The Books of Daniel & The Revelation of Jesus Christ, and Eze., Jer., Isa., &c

Rev20 · Nov 10, 2014

Astonishing Doctrine said:
Brother, Paul quoted two OT passages from the Prophet Isaiah, dealing with Prophecy about the Gospel, starting with Genesis 3:15, when he said, "It is written" - vs 15, see Isaiah 52:7, and "For Esaias, saith", in vs 16 - Isaiah 53:1. It would be like Hebrews 8:8-12, 10:16, citing Jeremiah 31:31-34, etc. It is OT Prophecy dealing with the Gospel and Covenant.

Paul possessed the powers of the Holy Spirit, so his interpretations are accurate. How do you know you are interpreting correctly? You have not demonstrated such powers, nor can you.
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Astonishing Doctrine said:
"The Two Witnesses [The Law and the Prophets, see also Zechariah 4]

The two olive trees in Zechariah 4 are Zerubbabel and Joshua, the two anointed by the Lord for the rebuilding of the Temple during the restoration at the end of the Babylonian Captivity. Zechariah was a prophet of the restoration:

"In the eighth month, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the Lord unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying," -- Zec 1:1

"Then the prophets, Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah the son of Iddo, prophesied unto the Jews that were in Judah and Jerusalem in the name of the God of Israel, even unto them." -- Ezra 5:1

The two witnesses of the Revelation were 1st century prophets, otherwise unknown, who were killed in Jerusalem during the siege.

Until you understand that, I don't seen any reason for me to ponder the rest.
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Astonishing Doctrine said:
Additionally, your citation of Revelation 12:17, is incorrect.

My citation of Revelation 12:17 is absolutely correct; but your misunderstanding is noted. It appears you were so eager to prove me wrong, you failed to notice that I intentionally added the past tense to denote first century Christians who were the actual victims of Satan and his children, such as those who were victims of these fellows:

"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." -- Rev 2:9-10

A.D., will you please refrain from spewing out so much disorganized scripture at one time? Most of us have lives.
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Astonishing Doctrine said:
I would remind you:

Revelation 22:18 KJV - For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:

Revelation 22:19 KJV - And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and [from] the things which are written in this book.

Your pretentious nature is noted; but I'll take my chances with my interpretation, rather than the flood of incoherence that is spewing out of your "mouth."

For the record, the only thing astonishing about your doctrine, to date, is the sheer quantity.

Astonishing Doctrine · Nov 10, 2014

Rev20 said:
Paul possessed the powers of the Holy Spirit, so his interpretations are accurate. How do you know you are interpreting correctly? You have not demonstrated such powers, nor can you.

Brother, I know by Faith in God's Word, since I have the gift of the person of the Holy Spirit, promised of/by Jesus. And He interprets, speaking to me from the Word, which is of Jesus, from the Father, and I listen to Him, and since He is the one which Inspired the Scripture, I think I may trust Him with His own Words:

John 14:17 KJV - [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 15:26 KJV - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

John 16:13 KJV - Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, [that] shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

1 John 4:6 KJV - We are of God: he that knoweth God heareth us; he that is not of God heareth not us. Hereby know we the spirit of truth, and the spirit of error.

Rev20 said:
The two olive trees in Zechariah 4 are Zerubbabel and Joshua, the two anointed by the Lord for the rebuilding of the Temple during the restoration at the end of the Babylonian Captivity. Zechariah was a prophet of the restoration:
"In the eighth month, in the second year of Darius, came the word of the Lord unto Zechariah, the son of Berechiah, the son of Iddo the prophet, saying," -- Zec 1:1
"Then the prophets, Haggai the prophet, and Zechariah the son of Iddo, prophesied unto the Jews that were in Judah and Jerusalem in the name of the God of Israel, even unto them." -- Ezra 5:1

Actually, God tells us what the Two Witnesses are in Zechariah 4, as I had earlier stated:

Zechariah 4:6 KJV - Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Again we see the Law/The Word of God, and the Spirit of Prophecy, being the Testimony. Notice that in vs 6, that the Two, are "unto Zerubbabel", not that he was one of them. Please reconsider what was given beforehand, thank you Brother - http://www.christianforums.com/t7850346-2/#post66607100

Rev20 said:
The two witnesses of the Revelation were 1st century prophets, otherwise unknown, who were killed in Jerusalem during the siege.

Until you understand that, I don't seen any reason for me to ponder the rest.

Brother, that is impossible to be so, due to the very Symbols used in Revelation 11, the time prophecies given therein, which synchronize with Daniel's, and the very Structure of the Text of Revelation, which I will further detail a bit latter. It will be much clearer than my previous brief summary. The details of Revelation 11, will come later, since I am not desirous to jump ahead of the texts and building from the foundation, as so many are apt to do, because they have drunk at the cup and table of Jezebel. This too shall be made plain, in that which is to come. Please be longsuffering with me brother, as is proper, being one of the fruits of the Holy Spirit, even patience -

Therefore, as it is written, "... have patience with me, and I will pay thee all."

Rev20 said:
My citation of Revelation 12:17 is absolutely correct; but your misunderstanding is noted. It appears you were so eager to prove me wrong, you failed to notice that I intentionally added the past tense to denote first century Christians who were the actual victims of Satan and his children, such as those who were victims of these fellows:
"I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan. Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life." -- Rev 2:9-10
A.D., will you please refrain from spewing out so much disorganized scripture at one time? Most of us have lives.

Revelation 2:9-10, is written for the Church of Smyrna, "And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna ...", and is the 2nd Church Period, and has nothing to do chronologically with Revelation 12:17, since it is also in a chronological sequence and symbolic sequence, that cannot be broken, from its connection with Daniel 7-12. Please review what was already given in brief on the Structure of Daniel and Revelation, previously - http://www.christianforums.com/t7850346/#post66601433

Please take notice, where the Branch of the 7 Churches parallel in sequence. I will break it down further at a later period, so that none need err from the Scripture. I would at this time recommend some hefty material, but I do not think you would like the length of it, as you have already made clear an aversion to length. Therefore, I ask, kindly, to please have patience for the time when it shall be made known in smaller bites.

Thank you for your admission to what I had gone to some extent to prove:

"I intentionally added the past tense..." - Rev20.

The scriptures which I had cited, in response to such addition, remain standing.

Rev20 said:
Your pretentious nature is noted; but I'll take my chances with my interpretation, rather than the flood of incoherence that is spewing out of your "mouth."

For the record, the only thing astonishing about your doctrine, to date, is the sheer quantity.

You are of course free to, as you say, "my interpretation", but I would remind you of Peter's words:

2 Peter 1:20 KJV - Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

I will remain with that which the Holy Spirit Himself speaketh concerning His inspired words. Thank you for your time, and listening, but I must now cease from responding to any further distractions from the OP from you, Rev20 and Interplanner, and must now steadfastly set my face to more important concerns, though I have taken valuable time to consider your concerns, and though it be your choice to refuse what is given, that is yours to do, but let others, have their time to listen and test for themselves, and therefore, I ask in charity, please Brother, let us not clutter this very important and timely <--- thread.

"...for the time is at hand."

Interplanner · Nov 10, 2014

What's more important than finding out whether your operating in the constructs of 2P2P or not? (It's the cornerstone of Dispensationalism which derives from British Adventism).

Interplanner · Nov 10, 2014

Actually, AD, I don't see where you've interacted with it. Did you mean invisible interacting?

Astonishing Doctrine · Nov 10, 2014

David Montaigne said:
If I gave my frank opinion on the posts above I'd probably be banned, so I'm going to tone it down and just say: Amazing Doctrine - thank you for your insightful posts. Don't let someone like Interplanner bother you.

... make the most of [the] time "here" and learn from those like A[stonishing] Doctrine [see Matthew 7:28, 22:33; Mark 1:22, 11:18; Luke 4:32; Acts 13;12] who are sharing and explaining what could be confusing topics for those who have eyes to see and ears to hear.

It is ok Brother, it is nothing I am not already used to, coming from many varied sources for quite some time now, and nothing to hurt the name of the one we bear over by replying in like manner. If others desire to continue as they have been, let them be, for their words and ours shall easily be contrasted and seen for what Spirit they are of, if we continually follow the Scriptural counsels, especially as it is written in the Book of James/Iakob, which I pray you will find useful, when speaking of "no guile", in Revelation.

Peace of the Lord Jesus Christ, be unto you, brother.

As it is written, that Jesus hath said:

John 14:27 KJV - Peace I leave with you, my peace I give unto you: not as the world giveth, give I unto you. Let not your heart be troubled, neither let it be afraid.

Astonishing Doctrine · Nov 10, 2014

Let us begin by asking a few basic questions of the text of Daniel - http://www.christianforums.com/t7850346-2/#post66602925 :

Why was Nebuchadnezzar [II] king of Babylon besieging Jerusalem?

Who allowed this to happen and why?

How did Jehoiakim come to reign upon the Throne of the Southern Kingdom of Judah?

Were there any prophecies in the OT which had already been given and already foretold these events?

However, in order to answer those questions and others, we need to go back into the past and see what brought these events on, so that we might truly consider Daniel 1:1 rightly, and consider the timeframe and their events:

Daniel 1:1 KJV - In the third year of the reign of Jehoiakim king of Judah came Nebuchadnezzar king of Babylon unto Jerusalem, and besieged it.

Let us look at the Past events leading up to this moment.

God had long ago, before this moment in Daniel 1, warned the people Israel [Leviticus 26:14-39; Deuteronomy 28:14-68], and in many times after [Joshua, Isaiah, Jeremiah, etc], that if they would go astray, cease from their love towards God, and go after other gods [which are no gods, but are dumb idols and devils; Galatians 4:8] and not obey the voice of the Lord, to keep His Commandments, that they would receive judgment upon themselves [Isaiah 5:13; Hosea 4:6-10].

God had even foretold such judgments [even in the days of Isaiah and Hezekiah; Isaiah 38:1-5, 39:1-7; 2 Chronicles 32:31-33], even because of the sins of the Kings [2 Kings 23:34-37] and also of the sins of King Manasseh [2 Kings 24:1-7], and now the Babylonian judgment had come from God.

The LORD God had said through Moses at the time of Israel's [the peoples] gathering unto Him at Mt. Sinai:

Exodus 19:3-8, etc

Moses goes up as Mediator to speak upon the behalf of Israel to God:

God then speaks unto Moses and declares unto Moses what Moses shall say unto them, he [Moses] being the Mediator, the go between for the making of a Covenant:

Exodus 19:3 KJV - "And Moses went up unto God, ..."

God gives evidence of His power to be able to perform His side of the covenant He is about to make with Israel:

Exodus 19:3 KJV - "... and the LORD called unto him out of the mountain, saying, Thus shalt thou say to the house of Jacob, and tell the children of Israel;"

God then speaks what Israel is to do in their side of the covenant agreement:

Exodus 19:4 KJV - "Ye have seen what I did unto the Egyptians, and [how] I bare you on eagles' wings, and brought you unto myself."

Exodus 19:5 KJV - "Now therefore, if ye will obey my voice indeed, and keep my covenant, then ye shall be a peculiar treasure unto me above all people: for all the earth [is] mine:"

What words? The words given in Exodus 19:4-6.

Exodus 19:6 KJV - "And ye shall be unto me a kingdom of priests, and an holy nation. These [are] the words which thou shalt speak unto the children of Israel."

God said [paraphrase], If they obey the voice of the LORD, then He will fulfill His promises to them and make them a "peculiar [purchased] people" unto Himself.

Moses, as Mediator between God and Israel, then takes those words unto the Leaders , the Elders, of Israel, the ones with the power of the covenant making:

Then the people all answer together, in their half of the covenant agreement,

Exodus 19:7 KJV - "And Moses came and called for the elders of the people, and laid before their faces all these words which the LORD commanded him."

Therefore, God said, "If...then..."

The peoples Israel said, "All that the LORD hath spoken [past tense] we will do."

Notice, that they said that they would keep their half of their covenant agreement with God, and without any assistance from God. They said, "We will do." But did they? Obviously not, and not even for very long... golden calf incident.

However, Moses, again as Mediator, takes the "promise" of the people Israel, to fulfill their side of the covenant agreement, back unto God.

Exodus 19:8 KJV - "And all the people answered together, and said, All that the LORD hath spoken we will do. ..."

Exodus 19:8 KJV - "... And Moses returned the words of the people unto the LORD. "

Then, later on, after the [old] covenant, not being the Ten Commandments themselves, but rather the agreement of both parties to the terms, was made between the LORD God and Israel [the peoples], having not been made previously with their fathers, it was later ratified with blood in Exodus 24. Then after all this, the LORD God gave Moses further instructions in righteousness for the peoples - Leviticus 25:1-55 & Leviticus 26:1-46, of which we shall now look at.

Astonishing Doctrine · Nov 11, 2014

Douggg said:
"Astoninshing" doctrine - the SDA view of bible prophecy? Why don't you just get right to the pope and/or the office of pope is the Antichrist?

For one, the priority of the first sentence is incorrect, as this is not SDA view, but rather the Scriptural position, even the Rock, upon which the Seventh-day Adventists subscribe and stand.

As for the latter part, the focus of Prophecy is not Anti-Christ, but rather Jesus Christ, as shown already - http://www.christianforums.com/t7850346/#post66590745 :
2 Peter 1:19 KJV - We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

Malachi 4:2 KJV - But unto you that fear my name shall the Sun of righteousness arise with healing in his wings; and ye shall go forth, and grow up as calves of the stall.

Luke 1:78 KJV - Through the tender mercy of our God; whereby the dayspring from on high hath visited us,

John 8:12 KJV - Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

Revelation 22:16 KJV - I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

2 Corinthians 4:6 KJV - For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Revelation 21:23 KJV - And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

Thus, once we have the clear view of Jesus Christ through the Light of Prophecy, shining amidst the darkness of this world, Anti-Christ, is/are seen for the counterfeit in clearness. For when we know the True Gem, glittering in all His Royal splendor, Majesty, Power, Grace and Love, how can anything or anyone compare, for all else, even the closest attempt to counterfeit will be seen as absolute chicanery, mere glass, mingled with foul smoke and darkened mirrors.

Do not fret, we shall come to the counterfeit, yet, but first it is much more profitable to consider the real prize of Scripture - the Saviour.

Notice:
John 3:14 KJV - And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:

John 12:32 KJV - And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto me.

Isaiah 45:22 KJV - Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.

John 3:30 KJV - "He must increase ...",

We ought to know the rest...

Douggg · Nov 11, 2014

Astonishing Facts wrote:

Thus, once we have the clear view of Jesus Christ through the Light of Prophecy, shining amidst the darkness of this world, Anti-Christ~~, is/are seen for the counterfeit in clearness.~~

Jesus - the Christ. the Christ means the King of Israel, son of David.

Mark 15:32 Let Christ the King of Israel descend now from the cross, that we may see and believe. And they that were crucified with him reviled him.

The pope cannot be the Antichrist because he is not a Jew and his religion is not Judaism to become the Antichrist - illicit King of Israel, instead of the rightful King of Israel, Jesus.

That puts the SDA end times view in error - start over.

Rev20 · Nov 11, 2014

Astonishing Doctrine said:
Brother, I know by Faith in God's Word, since I have the gift of the person of the Holy Spirit, promised of/by Jesus. And He interprets, speaking to me from the Word, which is of Jesus, from the Father, and I listen to Him, and since He is the one which Inspired the Scripture, I think I may trust Him with His own Words:John 14:17 KJV - [Even] the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

John 14:17 was addressed to his disciples, who, along with the Apostle Paul, received the powers of the Holy Spirit and the oracles of God. No one has possessed those powers since the first century.
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Astonishing Doctrine said:
John 15:26 KJV - But when the Comforter is come, whom I will send unto you from the Father, [even] the Spirit of truth, which proceedeth from the Father, he shall testify of me:

On the day of Pentecost, the Comforter was initially received only by the twelve disciples--the men from Galilee, which included the newly appointed Matthias (Acts 1:26, 2:1, 7.) They, in turn, baptized others, who baptized others, and so forth, until about 3000 were converted and added to the Church in the first day.
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Astonishing Doctrine said:
Actually, God tells us who the Two Witnesses are in Zechariah 4, as I had earlier stated:

Zechariah 4:6 KJV - Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of the LORD unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my spirit, saith the LORD of hosts.

Again we see the Law/The Word of God, and the Spirit of Prophecy, being the Testimony. Notice that in vs 6, that the Two, are "unto Zerubbabel", not that he was one of them. Please reconsider what was given beforehand, thank you Brother - http://www.christianforums.com/t7850346-2/#post66607100
Brother, that is impossible to be so, due to the very Symbols used in Revelation 11, the time prophecies given therein, which synchronize with Daniel's, and the very Structure of the Text of Revelation, which I will further detail a bit latter.

Sorry, Brother, but the words of Zechariah 3 and 4 are referring to the two leaders of the Israelites that oversaw the rebuilding of the temple after their return from Babylon (Ezra 3.) They were Zerubbabel the governor, of the house of David (Zech 4); and Joshua the high priest, of the house of Zadok (Zech 3, 6.)
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Astonishing Doctrine said:
Revelation 2:9-10, is written for the Church of Smyrna, "And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna ...", and is the 2nd Church Period, and has nothing to do chronologically with Revelation 12:17, since it is also in a chronological sequence and symbolic sequence, that cannot be broken, from its connection with Daniel 7-12. Please review what was already given in brief on the Structure of Daniel and Revelation, previously - http://www.christianforums.com/t7850346/#post66601433

The Seven Churches in Asia were simply seven churches in Asia. They had absolutely nothing to do with so-called "Church Periods," which were invented in the imaginations of mere men, rather than derived from the inspired words of God. Read carefully:

"John to the seven churches which are in Asia: Grace be unto you, and peace, from him which is, and which was, and which is to come; and from the seven Spirits which are before his throne;" -- Rev 1:4

"What thou seest, write in a book, and send it unto the seven churches which are in Asia . . ." -- Rev 1:11

"The seven stars are the angels of the seven churches: and the seven candlesticks which thou sawest are the seven churches." -- Rev 1:20

I caution you to refrain from adding words to the Revelation of Jesus Christ (Rev 22:18-19.)
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Astonishing Doctrine said:
Thank you for your admission to what I had gone to some extent to prove:"I intentionally added the past tense..." - Rev20.
The scriptures which I had cited, in response to such addition, remain standing.

Under your strange method of interpreting scripture, that passage will never be fulfilled, for it will forever remain "future" tense. LOL!
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Astonishing Doctrine said:
You are of course free to, as you say, "my interpretation", but I would remind you of Peter's words:2 Peter 1:20 KJV - Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

Until you understand the meaning of that passage, it is recommended you refrain from passing yourself off as some sort of "prophecy expert." All Peter is saying is prophecy comes from God, rather from the understanding (and imaginations) of men. John made no bones about it:

"The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave unto him . . . " -- Rev 1:1

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Astonishing Doctrine said:
I will remain with that which the Holy Spirit Himself speaketh concerning His inspired words. Thank you for your time, and listening, but I must now cease from responding to any further distractions from the OP from you, Rev20 and Interplanner, and must now steadfastly set my face to more important concerns, though I have taken valuable time to consider your concerns, and though it be your choice to refuse what is given, that is yours to do, but let others, have their time to listen and test for themselves, and therefore, I ask in charity, please Brother, let us not clutter this very important and timely <--- thread. "...for the time is at hand."

The only one cluttering this thread is you. A clearer focus on succinctness based on academics, rather than theatrics, may prove more fruitful.

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The Books of Daniel & The Revelation of Jesus Christ, and Eze., Jer., Isa., &c

Rev20

Partial Preterist

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Astonishing Doctrine

They shall come with weeping ...

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Interplanner

Newbie

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Interplanner

Newbie

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Astonishing Doctrine

They shall come with weeping ...

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Astonishing Doctrine

They shall come with weeping ...

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Astonishing Doctrine

They shall come with weeping ...

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Douggg

anytime rapture, non-dispensationalist, futurist

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Rev20

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