The Restoration of Israel, as Described in the Holy Scriptures

Rev20 said:

Don't forget that Jesus was cut-off (killed) in the midst of the seventieth week. So, according to "dispy" theory, Jesus has to be killed in the future (but not before many new "Antichrists" are named.)

I can not imagine a more convoluted mess than dispensational doctrine.


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Fa Real!!!!

iamlamad said in post 752:

I can prove a pretrib rapture, for it is TRUTH.

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Note that nothing in the Bible teaches or requires a pre-tribulation rapture of the church. Instead, the Bible shows that Jesus won't come and gather together (rapture) the church until immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31, Mark 13:24-27; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). That is why the marriage of the church doesn't happen until Revelation 19:7, in connection with Jesus' 2nd coming and the physical resurrection of the church at that time (Revelation 19:7 to 20:6; 1 Corinthians 15:21-23,51-53; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-16). Matthew 24:30-31 refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and gathering together (rapture) of the church as 2 Thessalonians 2:1, which refers to the same 2nd coming of Jesus and catching up together (rapture) of the church as 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17.

Jesus won't return and gather together (rapture) the church until sometime after there is a falling away (an apostasy) in the church, and the Antichrist sits in a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:1-4, Daniel 11:31,36, Revelation 11:1-2, Revelation 13:4-8), and the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of the 3rd Jewish temple (Matthew 24:15-31, Daniel 11:31). For when Jesus returns to gather together (and marry) the church, he will destroy the Antichrist (2 Thessalonians 2:1,8, Revelation 19:7,20). Before Jesus returns, the church will have to go through the future, literal 3.5 years of the Antichrist's worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-31).

At Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Thessalonians 4:15; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:30), the church will be physically resurrected and caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31), not to remove the church from the earth (Proverbs 10:30, John 17:15,20), but to take the church only as high as the clouds of the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

At that meeting, Jesus will judge everyone in the church (Psalms 50:3-5, cf. Mark 13:27) by their works (2 Corinthians 5:10, Romans 2:6-8, Luke 12:45-48, Matthew 25:19-30). And then Jesus will marry in the clouds the obedient part of the church (Revelation 19:7-8, Matthew 25:1-12), those in the church (of all times) who "overcame" to the end (Revelation 3:5, Revelation 2:26). They will then mount white horses and come back down from the sky (the 1st heaven) with Jesus (Revelation 19:14) as he defeats the Antichrist (the individual-man aspect of Revelation's "beast") and the world's armies (Revelation 19:15-21). Jesus will then make the marriage supper of Revelation 19:9 for the resurrected and married obedient part of the church in the earthly Jerusalem (Isaiah 25:6-9; 1 Corinthians 15:54). Jesus and the obedient part of the church will then reign on the earth for 1,000 years (Revelation 20:4-6, Revelation 5:10, Revelation 2:26-29).

iamlamad said in post 752:

Look again at 1 Thes. 5. Read how Paul mentions the day of the Lord, just three verses after the classic rapture verse.

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Note that the future day of the Lord (Christ) (1 Thessalonians 5:2; 2 Thessalonians 2:2) will begin at the Lord Jesus Christ's 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't occur until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, "immediately after" the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8), which is when the rapture (the gathering together) of the church will occur (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

iamlamad said in post 752:

Read how Paul tells us the "sudden destruction" God will make no appointment with His saints for, is the start of God's wrath.

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1 Thessalonians 5:3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them . . .

1 Thessalonians 5:3 could include reference to when, near the end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, at the 2 witnesses' death at the legal end of the Antichrist's 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 11:8,15, Revelation 13:5-18), the unsaved world will rejoice and make merry because it will then be free from the tormenting plagues from the 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:10,6). But little will the unsaved world realize that the plagues of the 7 vials of God's judgment and wrath will then be poured out upon it (Revelation 16). And then Jesus will return and bring the 2nd-coming judgment and wrath of God (Revelation 19:11 to 20:3).

The unsaved people of the world will have no idea that most of them are going to be killed at Jesus' 2nd coming until it happens (Matthew 24:37-39). For they could think that the 2nd coming had already occurred with the coming into power of the Antichrist's miracle-working False Prophet (Revelation 13:13-14, Revelation 19:20), who could claim to be Jesus returned. And just as the people of the world shortly before Noah's flood, even though they could see or hear about Noah building his huge ark, no doubt rejected the idea that YHWH God had the power to actually cause a global flood which would kill them, so the people of the world at the end of the future tribulation could reject the idea that YHWH has the power to actually defeat them.

For during the tribulation's 2nd half, the world will see the power of Lucifer (Satan, the dragon) and his fallen angels (Revelation 12:9), and the power Lucifer will give to the Antichrist to take over the entire earth (Revelation 13:4-8), and to utterly revile YHWH year after year without being destroyed (Revelation 13:5-6, Daniel 11:36), and to physically overcome and kill people in the church in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13). And the world will see the amazing miraculous powers which Lucifer will give to the Antichrist's False Prophet, by which he will be able to even call fire down from heaven in the sight of everyone (Revelation 13:13, cf. 2 Thessalonians 2:9).

And near the end of the future tribulation, the world will see the Antichrist's defeat of YHWH's amazingly-powerful 2 witnesses (Revelation 11:3-9), after which defeat the world will rejoice and make merry and send gifts to each other because the 2 witnesses had been sending plagues on the world (Revelation 11:10,6). And even though those plagues will be shortly followed by even more plagues from YHWH, poured out directly from heaven (Revelation 16, the tribulation's final stage), the people of the world won't lose their confidence that YHWH can still be defeated. For after almost all of the plagues from heaven are over, the world will see the amazing miraculous powers of some unclean spirits, convincing the world's armies to gather together for a battle against YHWH (Revelation 16:13-14, Revelation 19:19). And so the world could come to that battle at the very end of the tribulation with the same careless attitude as some people at the start of the American Civil War, who held picnics at the expected first battleground of Bull Run/Manassas to watch the battle and what they expected to be a quick and easy victory.

iamlamad said in post 752:

Read how Paul tells us the "sudden destruction" God will make no appointment with His saints for, is the start of God's wrath.

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Regarding "God will make no appointment", are you thinking of 1 Thessalonians 5:9? If so, 1 Thessalonians 5:9 refers only to that wrath which is opposed to salvation, which is indeed God's wrath (John 3:36). But note that even obedient saved people can suffer the wrath of Satan, which doesn't affect their salvation (Revelation 12:17, Revelation 2:10). For even if they are killed by Satan, this is no loss for them, but gain, for it brings their still-conscious souls into heaven to be with Jesus (Philippians 1:21,23; 2 Corinthians 5:8). Also, 1 Thessalonians 5:9a applies to anyone who obtains salvation (1 Thessalonians 5:9b), and no matter whether they live or die (1 Thessalonians 5:10).

Also, note that nothing requires that the entire future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 will be God's wrath, or that any part of the tribulation that will be his wrath will be directed against any of the saved people (1 Thessalonians 5:9) who will still be alive on the earth at that time (Matthew 24:9-13, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6). Most of the tribulation could be only Satan's wrath working through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on the earth, like when Satan was allowed to work through evil people and natural forces to bring disaster on righteous Job (Job 1:12-20), against whom God had no wrath.

The tribulation's first 5 seals (Revelation 6:1-11) won't be God's wrath or judgment, for after the first 4 seals, the martyrs of the 5th seal ask God when he is going to bring his judgment against the world (Revelation 6:10). And the killing of even more martyrs, which the 5th seal foretells will happen sometime after the 5th seal (Revelation 6:11), won't be God's wrath against those martyrs. So Jesus' unsealing of the seals (Revelation 6), the tribulation's first stage, doesn't mean that the events unsealed will be God's wrath, but that they will be permitted by God to happen at that time.

The tribulation's 6th seal (Revelation 6:12-14) will happen sometime before the day of the Lord (Joel 2:31, Revelation 6:12), as in only a few years before. The day of the Lord itself won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (1 Corinthians 1:7-8; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10), which won't happen until Revelation 19:7 to 20:6, immediately after the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8). Similarly, the day of the Lord's wrath (Psalms 110:5) won't begin until Jesus' 2nd coming (Revelation 19:19-21).

So the people quoted at the 6th seal (Revelation 6:17), during only the first stage of the tribulation, could be just as mistaken as Job was when Job said that what was happening to him was God's wrath against him (Job 19:11). Just as what was happening to Job was actually Satan's wrath against him, not God's wrath, so the 6th seal could actually be Satan's wrath, not God's wrath. And just as the writer of the book of Job didn't go out of his way to correct Job's mistaken statement in Job 19:11, and just as the apostles John and Matthew didn't go out of their way to correct the mistaken statements of the people they quoted in John 7:12b and Matthew 27:63a, so the apostle John could have not gone out of his way to correct the statement of the people he quoted in Revelation 6:17.

After the tribulation's 6th seal will occur its 7th seal (Revelation 8:1), out of which will come its 7 trumpets (Revelation 8:1-2). Note that nothing requires that any of the first 6 trumpets' events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will be God's wrath. The 5th trumpet's events will be the work of strange locust-like beings from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:2-10), led by a fallen angel from the bottomless pit (Revelation 9:11). And the 6th trumpet's events to the end of Revelation 9 will be the work of weird horse-like beings led by 4 fallen angels previously bound at the Euphrates (Revelation 9:14-19). So even though good angels of God will sound the first 6 trumpets, this could be announcing God's allowing the wrath of Satan to destroy 1/3 of different things (Revelation 8:7-12, Revelation 9:15,18), just as Satan will subsequently, mid-tribulation, be allowed by God to cause 1/3 of the angels (i.e. his fallen angels) to be cast down to the earth permanently (Revelation 12:4,9).

Revelation chapters 8 and 9 will happen before the Antichrist's (the individual-man aspect of the beast's) future, literal 3.5-year worldwide Luciferian/Satanic reign (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). And the events in Revelation chapters 8 and 9 could be used by Satan to help prepare the world to welcome that reign. For what he could do is first take great pleasure in causing the destruction in each event, but then claim that the destruction isn't from him, but from YHWH, and that YHWH is a cruel tyrant god who hates mankind and only wants to make it suffer, while he (Satan, as "Lucifer") only wants the best for mankind (cf. Mark 8:33b). In this way, he could deceive the world into turning away from YHWH and instead worshipping him (the dragon) and the Antichrist (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9). The Antichrist will utterly revile YHWH (Revelation 13:6, Daniel 11:36).

After the Antichrist's literal 3.5-year reign (Revelation 13:5-7) is declared legally over at the sounding of the tribulation's 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:15), the 7 plagues of the 7 vials of God's wrath will come out of the heavenly-temple opening of the 7th trumpet (Revelation 11:19, Revelation 15:5 to 16:1). The vials will then be poured out on the Antichrist's followers as God's judgment for their receiving the Antichrist's mark and worshipping his image (Revelation 16:2), and for their killing of people in the church (Revelation 16:6-7, Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

During the Antichrist's worldwide reign, people in the church will be hated and killed in every nation for refusing to renounce the name of Jesus Christ (Matthew 24:9-13). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the witness of Jesus Christ (Revelation 20:4), for refusing to accept the antichrist lies that Jesus himself isn't the Christ (1 John 2:22), and that Christ himself isn't in the flesh (2 John 1:7). They will be beheaded for refusing to renounce the sound doctrine of the Bible, the Word of God (Revelation 20:4; 2 Timothy 3:15 to 4:4), for refusing to depart from the Biblical faith and to give heed instead to seducing spirits and doctrines of devils (1 Timothy 4:1-2). They will be beheaded for refusing to worship the Antichrist's image (Revelation 20:4, Revelation 13:15). And all of this will be Satan's wrath against the church (Revelation 12:17), not God's wrath, for the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9).

Even when God's wrath comes in the 7 vials (Revelation 16), the tribulation's final stage, because the church isn't appointed to God's wrath (1 Thessalonians 5:9), none of the vials will be directed at any of those in the church who will still be alive on the earth at that time, still waiting for Jesus' coming as a thief (Revelation 16:15). Instead, they will go into protective chambers which they will have prepared for themselves on the earth (Isaiah 26:20), just as Noah and his family went into the protective ark which they had prepared for themselves on the earth (Genesis 7:11,13).

Jesus will return right after the 7th and last vial is completed (Revelation 16:17,19, Revelation 19:2-21, Matthew 24:29-30), and he will bring the 2nd-coming wrath of God on the unsaved world (Revelation 19:15-21). But before that 2nd-coming wrath begins, the church will be caught up together/gathered together (raptured) (1 Thessalonians 4:17; 2 Thessalonians 2:1, Matthew 24:31) into the sky to hold a meeting in the air with the returned Jesus (1 Thessalonians 4:17).

ebedmelech said in post 754:

The Church had fled Jerusalem just as Jesus warned in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13.

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Note that just as the highly detailed tribulation events of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 find no historical fulfillment, so the tribulation events of Matthew 24, Mark 13, and Luke 21 find no historical fulfillment. For example, Luke 21:24 refers to the same future treading down of Jerusalem by the Gentiles as Revelation 11:2b, during the Antichrist's future, literal 42-month worldwide reign (Revelation 13:5-18), the details of which time period are shown from 4 different angles in Revelation chapters 11 to 14 (Revelation 11:2b-3, Revelation 12:6,14, Revelation 13:5,7, Revelation 14:9-13). The myriad details of these chapters have never been fulfilled. Similarly, Jesus' 2nd coming and the church's gathering together (rapture) in Matthew 24:30-31 (2 Thessalonians 2:1-8; 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17) have never been fulfilled, but must occur "immediately after" the future tribulation of Matthew 24, Mark 13, Luke 21, and Revelation chapters 6 to 18 (Matthew 24:29-31; 2 Thessalonians 2:1-8, Revelation 19:2 to 20:6).

Also, the end of the 2nd temple building (also called Herod's temple building) in 70 AD didn't fulfill Matthew 24:2. For the stones of the 2nd temple's Wailing Wall (also called the Western Wall) still stand today one on top of the other, just as they did when Jesus spoke that prophecy. Matthew 24:2 included the Wailing Wall, for Matthew 24:2 wasn't referring only to the single, 2nd temple building which stood in the center of the Temple Mount and which contained the holy place and the most holy place, but was referring to "all these things", all the plural "buildings"/structures/oikodome (G3619) of the entire 2nd temple complex (Matthew 24:1). Indeed, Matthew 24:2 could even have been spoken just to the north and west of the Wailing Wall. For it was spoken just after Jesus had departed from the temple complex (Matthew 24:1), and one of the main temple complex exits (called Wilson's Arch and bridge by archaeologists) was just to the north of the Wailing Wall, and at the same level as the top of the Temple Mount (see the temple-complex map-insert in the December, 2008 issue of National Geographic magazine).

Also, in Matthew 24:2, the "here" can include not just the entire 2nd temple complex, but every structure throughout Jerusalem. For the similar statement in Luke 19:44 applied to the whole city (Luke 19:41-44). Matthew 24:2 and Luke 19:44 could be fulfilled at the very end of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, right before and at Jesus' 2nd coming (Zechariah 14:2-21, Revelation 19:7 to 20:6).

ebedmelech said in post 754:

The Church had fled Jerusalem just as Jesus warned in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13.

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Are you thinking of Matthew 24:16? If so, note that with regard to "Judaea" (Matthew 24:16), this doesn't have to mean 1st century AD Judaea. For there are many churches in Judaea (southern Israel) still today. They contain mostly Gentile believers, not just Jewish believers. The church began and has always been in Judaea: "Then had the churches rest throughout all Judaea" (Acts 9:31); "the churches of Judaea" (Galatians 1:22); "the churches... in Judaea" (1 Thessalonians 2:14). Matthew 24:16 refers to those in the church, both Gentiles and Jews, who will be living in Judaea at the future point in time when the abomination of desolation (possibly a standing, android image of the Antichrist) is set up in the holy place (the inner sanctum) of a 3rd Jewish temple in Jerusalem (Matthew 24:15, Daniel 11:31).

The Antichrist's persecution of the church could begin in Jerusalem and Judaea right after the abomination of desolation is set up, and the Antichrist himself sits in the temple (at least one time) and proclaims himself God (2 Thessalonians 2:4, Daniel 11:36). So to avoid this persecution (cf. Matthew 10:23a), those in the church living in Judaea should flee immediately after they see the abomination of desolation set up (Matthew 24:15-16), which event could occur at the midpoint of the future tribulation of Revelation chapters 6 to 18 and Matthew 24, and which event could mark the start of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year worldwide reign (Revelation 13:4-18). Eventually, the Antichrist's persecution of the church will reach every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13), so that the basic principle of Matthew 24:16, of fleeing (the Antichrist's persecution), would apply to believers around the world.

Just as the woman in Revelation 12:6 represents many different people in the church around the world, so the protected wilderness place she flees to represents many different, protected wilderness places around the world. When those in the church living in Judaea see the abomination of desolation set up, they should flee into places in the wilderness east of Judaea, the mountains (Matthew 24:16) of Jordan. And those in the church who will be living in places in the world other than Judaea should flee into other wilderness places, mountainous places (Ezekiel 7:16), in the regions of the world where they live.

And they should have prepared beforehand hideouts in these wilderness/mountain places, hideouts already fully stocked with all of the emergency supplies of food, water, warm clothing, etc., that they and their families and fellow Christians will need to survive (1 Timothy 5:8, Matthew 24:45-46, cf. Genesis 41:48,36, Genesis 45:7) until Jesus returns, possibly on the 1,335th day after the abomination of desolation is set up (Daniel 12:11-12, Revelation 16:15). For they shouldn't carry any supplies with them when they flee (Matthew 24:17-18). They should flee as unhindered and quickly as possible, knowing that when the abomination of desolation is set up, that could signal the beginning of the Antichrist's future, literal 3.5-year Luciferian (Satanic) worldwide reign of terror (Revelation 13:4-18, Revelation 12:9), when he will be given power to make war against all Biblical Christians that he can get his hands on, and to physically overcome them and kill them (by beheading) in every nation (Revelation 13:7-10, Revelation 14:12-13, Revelation 20:4-6, Matthew 24:9-13).

Rev20 said:

If Christ arrived at the beginning of the 70th week, and ministered for 1/2 week before he was killed (he was cut off out of the land of the living in the middle of the 70th week,) how do you come up with a full week remaining? Do you not do math?


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Your "IF" was off to begin with. Christ came after the 69 weeks. Daniel had a gap between the 69th and 70th. Christ did not fulfill the first half of the 70th week. If you study Revelation, the entire 70th week is there.

Take an apple today, slice it in half, and eat half. That is to represent the first half of the week that you believe Jesus fulfilled. Put the other half in the 'fridge for a night. The night is to represent 2000 years. Now, take out what is left and divide it in half. The division is to represent the stopping of the daily sacrifices that will divide the week. What you will end up with is TWO QUARTERS, not two halves.

For the ceasing of the daily sacrifices (the abomination) to divide the week, you must have an entire week.

If you study Revelation, you find the week clearly marked by the 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends the week. The trumpets will be in the first half, and the vials in the second half. It is all there, and it is all future.

There is simply no proof that Jesus ministered for 1260 days. That theory does not fit what is written anyway.

LAMAD

Stop telling us what Daniel "had." There is no gap in the text. There was a break mentioned at 7 weeks and it did not affect anything.

It is not reasonable to start with doctrines in the Rev. If they aren't crystal clear elsewhere, forget it.

ebedmelech said:

Perhaps you should go back and understand Ezekiel tells you EXACTLY what he's referring to. Ezekiel 1:1, 2:
Now it came about in the thirtieth year, on the fifth day of the fourth month, while I was by the river Chebar among the exiles, the heavens were opened and I saw visions of God.
2 (On the fifth of the month in the fifth year of King Jehoiachin’s exile,
3 the word of the Lord came expressly to Ezekiel the priest, son of Buzi, in the land of the Chaldeans by the river Chebar; and there the hand of the Lord came upon him.)
Do you see what you're doing Lamad? You're ignoring the time frame Ezekiel gives you for his prophecy! He's AMONG THE EXILES. So the "valley of dry bones" happened already because God did return Israel to the land. Jehoiachin was taken prisoner...that would put you at 2 Kings 24 and 2 Chronicles 36.

Haven't you read Esther, Ezra, and Nehemiah? Or do you just ignore those books?

No...dispensationalist CONTRIVE a separated 70th week.

You love the "preconcieved glasses" comment, not realizing you have yours on...and not only are they preconceived...BUT they are also from contriving the scriptures to support what you've been taught.

1 Thess 5 won't work because again you ignore "the day of the Lord" came upon the nation of Israel after...NOT the church. The Church had fled Jerusalem just as Jesus warned in Matthew 24, Luke 21, and Mark 13. However again, your teaching contrives the scriptures instead of allowing the scriptures to tell the story.

Do you even notice how Peter, Paul, James and Jude are all telling those Christians they wrote to to prepare for that day?

Do you even know what "the day of the Lord" is? I encourage you to search that phrase out.

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I suggest you really study to show yourself approved, not show how poorly you read:

Ezekiel 37
1 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again. 23 They shall not defile themselves anymore with their idols, nor with their detestable things, nor with any of their transgressions; but I will deliver them from all their dwelling places in which they have sinned, and will cleanse them. Then they shall be My people, and I will be their God. 24 “David My servant shall be king over them, and they shall all have one shepherd; they shall also walk in My judgments and observe My statutes, and do them.


I know it is a real struggle for you to consider three phases of time, but do please TRY?


Past: gone by in time and no longer existing.
Present: the period of time now occurring.
Future: the time or a period of time following the moment of speaking or writing; time regarded as still to come.
(Google)

If you read carefully, you will understand that David reigned from about 1010 to 970 BC.

The Babylonian captivity began around 597 BC. How strange then, That Daniel would write that David would be their king once again. You do understand (I hope) that this has never happened? You do understand that until 70 AD there was division between Judah and Israel? This prophecy is speaking of events STILL FUTURE TO US TODAY. Daniel goes right on into chapters 38 and 39, MORE events still future to us today.

You are right in one SMALL item; the pretrib rapture will be the TRIGGER for the Day of the Lord, so it is not for the Bride of Christ who will be snatched away before the Day comes. This is what Paul tells us:

1 Thes 5
8 But let us who are of the day be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love, and as a helmet the hope of salvation. 9 For God did not appoint us to wrath, but to obtain salvation through our Lord Jesus Christ, 10 who died for us, that whether we wake or sleep, we should live together with Him.

God did not and will not make an appointment with His wrath, for those who are caught up. It will be those LEFT BEHIND that face the "sudden destruction" at the beginning of God's wrath. God did not appoint us to wrath, but rather to be caught up in the rapture and so ever be with the Lord.

If you wish to call 70 AD a "day of the Lord," I guess you can. But there is still a "day of the Lord" written in both the Old and New testaments that has yet to be fulfilled. It is you that are sadly lacking here and should go and study it. For example, one statement written was that in the Day of the Lord, God would destroy the world and the sinners in the world. How silly to think that happened in 70 AD. Wait until the 6th seal hits, and the first worldwide earthquake hits, and you will see what that prophet had in mind. God will soon DESTROY this world and the sinners in the world.

In other words, CATACLYSMIC events are soon to come. After the soon to come 70th week of Daniel - or after the 7th vial of Revelation 16, the world population will probably number in the millions, not billions. After the sheep and goat judgment, there will be no sinners left alive. I am speaking of FUTURE events. I know this is a novel idea to you, but it is TRUTH.

I did not approach Revelation with ANY preconceptions. They are on your side of this discussion, not mine. I know you are stuck in history mode. I suggest you break those preconceptions and start over with future in mind. Soon Jesus will come FOR His bride, and you will be left behind wondering, because you have ZERO faith in His coming before the 70th week.

LAMAD

Rev20 said:

Don't forget that Jesus was cut-off (killed) in the midst of the seventieth week. So, according to "dispy" theory, Jesus has to be killed in the future (but not before many new "Antichrists" are named.)

I can not imagine a more convoluted mess than dispensational doctrine.


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This is simply because you lack understanding, both of the scriptures and of the dispensational doctrine. It is the TRUTH of scripture. If you wish to talk about a mess of doctrine, try making most of Revelation history.

LAMAD

Rev20 said:

It said "seventy weeks are decreed", Biblewriter: not 350 weeks, or whatever it is you are pushing.


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Certainly 70 week have been decreed. What you are missing is that GOD HIMSELF, using Daniel to write, put a GAP Between the 69th week and the 70th - just as if He knew way back then that Israel as a nation would reject their Messiah, and God would turn to the Gentiles and wait for a full number of Gentiles to come in, before the 70th week would take place. The church is as a parenthesis inserted between the 69th and 70th week. The 70th week is still FUTURE. I know that is a novel concept for you to grasp, but it is TRUTH.

LAMAD

Lamad,
don't you realize the "reign of David" becomes something new in the age of Messiah?

Back to the 70th week: have you evaluated Steve Wohlberg's treatment. He is a Messianic Jew. It is complete and ended about 34 or so. He left the "battle" verse of Dan 9:27 untouched, uncommented upon. Which is a way of 'solving' the 70 weeks without them having to reach the full generation away to the revolt. Which I thought was quite astute; people have no flexibility when they see 490 years planned out. But my point here is that his arguments why the 70 weeks end on time are unassailable.

I'll try to dig up the link to the youtube of it.

White Horse Media - Articles >> Tribulation Talks >> The 70th Week of Daniel Delusion

There is no known gap in the text.

There is only a reason for a gap because of 2P2P. Dispensationalism is powered by 2P2P. At least Ryrie was cognizant of that. He just didn't realize it does not survive Galatians, Ephesians, Romans, Hebrews. But I suppose those are just Christianity Lite! And that "real" Christian teaching is their view of Mt 23:39 and Rom 11:26 and almost nothing else.

btw, the idea that God "turned" to the Gentiles is totally false. Thousands of Jews were saved through the early decades. Most of course rejected it. But if there is any conclusion from rom 11:30+ it is that there is no ethnos periods any more. The Israel of 11:26 is not one of them; it is the new one.

We know this from the logical problem of taking one moment's future slice of Israel and calling that "all" (it most certainly is not all!). But now we also have been helped by BW telling us that it refers to a certain future moment sometime in the all-planned out future trib and that most Jews have been killed (a la Zech 14:2+) and so the # is seriously discounted. At which point, I for one am here to say if that if "all" is literalist-BW's "all," then the word "created" in Gen 1:1 is actually nuked.

I don't know how a totally discounted "all" is supposed to solve Gentile conceit anyway. It doesn't. That's what Paul was trying to do. The true way to carry his heart's cry forward is to stress faith alone for membership in God's people. That's what is lingering from 11:20. Ie, neither Jew nor Gentile have a basis for conceit when Paul is done! Only the other Israel, the Israel of God, the remnant, the elect, etc, that is all through Rom 9-11.

Finally, the word "saved" is not a restored millenial national state in v26. This is explained by the Isaiah quote. Saved is justification from the debt of one's sins in the new covenant. That is the mercy of God of v31+, and 12:1, which in turn creates a group that is offering "living sacrifices" in a new "temple" (Christ). Paul is quoting this passage as a done deal. Future to Isaiah but now a reality for Paul.

Inter,Romans 10:1 Brethren, my heart's desire and prayer to God for Israel is, that they might be saved.
2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.


Israel of today is in an unsaved condition. Prophecy still unfilled.



If Israel, as Paul spoke of Israel, were Christians then they would be saved, and it would not be Paul's wish that Israel be saved. You do agree that Christians are saved, right?

iamlamad said:

Your "IF" was off to begin with. Christ came after the 69 weeks. Daniel had a gap between the 69th and 70th.

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Only 70 weeks were decreed in Daniel 9:24. There was also an additional undetermined time decreed for the desolations in 9:26-27.

It is written that Christ came after the 69th week, which was the beginning of the 70th week. Those who don't do math are easily fooled by those teaching otherwise. So, if you have trouble with math, PAY ATTENTION!
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iamlamad said:

Christ did not fulfill the first half of the 70th week. If you study Revelation, the entire 70th week is there.

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It is written that Christ was cut off in the midst of the 70th week (9:26), and that he confirmed the covenant with the children of Israel for the full 70th week (9:27). How did he accomplish that? He sent his disciples for the last half-week of covenant confirmation:


One of the first acts of the disciples after Christ's ascension was covenant confirmation. This is Peter:


And, of course, one of the primary missions of Christ was covenant confirmation, according to Paul:


Therefore, the 70th week was completed when covenant confirmation was completed, as written by Daniel, which was about the time the first Gentile (Cornelius) was allowed into the kingdom in Acts 10.
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iamlamad said:

Take and apple today, slice it in half, and eat half. That is to represent the first half of the week that you believe Jesus fulfilled. Put the other half in the 'fridge for a night. The night is to represent 2000 years. Now, take out what is left and divide it in half. The division is to represent the stopping of the daily sacrifices that will divide the week. What you will end up with is TWO QUARTERS, not two halves.

For the ceasing of the daily sacrifices (the abomination) to divide the week, you must have an entire week.

If you study Revelation, you find the week clearly marked by the 7's: the 7th seal opens the week, the 7th trumpet marks the midpoint and the 7th vial ends the week. The trumpets will be in the first half, and the vials in the second half. It is all there, and it is all future.

There is simply no proof that Jesus ministered for 1260 days. That theory does not fit what is written anyway.

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We have heard all the dispensational mumbo-jumbo before; but in addition to that, you are adding new words to the book of the Revelation with your 7th-this and 7th-that fantasy. That is not recommended:

I just watched a series of videos that a Brit by the name of Duncan Heaster has posted about the Siege of Jerusalem and his thoughts on Ezekiel 38 & 39. He has really swayed be into thinking that Gog of Magog is just another name for the King of Assyria. I starting to think he is right.

Why would REv 20's G&M be about the king of Assyria?

Interplanner said:

Why would REv 20's G&M be about the king of Assyria?

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I believe he is referring to Gog, chief prince of the land of Magog, in Ezekiel, as opposed to "Gog and Magog," the four quarters of the earth in the Revelation.


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Belly Rumble said:

I just watched a series of videos that a Brit by the name of Duncan Heaster has posted about the Siege of Jerusalem and his thoughts on Ezekiel 38 & 39. He has really swayed be into thinking that Gog of Magog is just another name for the King of Assyria. I starting to think he is right.

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Gog in Ezekiel is not the same Gog found in the Revelation. John (well, Christ) grabbed the names from Ezekiel, but the prophecies are not close to being the same.

There is a lot of speculation about Gog, the chief prince of Magog, in Ezekiel. The only one that even remotely fits is Antiochus IV, in my opinion. Due to the parabolic nature of Ezekiel's prophecies, difficult passages are commonplace.

Adam Clarke approaches his commentary on Ezekiel 38 primarily with Antiochus in mind, for example:








And so on. . .
[Source: Adam Clarke, "Commentary and Critical Notes 04 - Old Testament Vol IV." G. Lane & C. B. Tippett, 1846, Ezek.38:2, pp.528-29]

Clarke parallels with an alternate interpretation by Augustin Calmet (1672-1757) who believed Gog was Cambyses, king of Persia.


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