Our ancient faith, quotes on doctrine from the Early Church Fathers.

MoreCoffee said:

I enjoy reading the things that the early Church saints wrote, especially the saints who are called church fathers. They had an earthy wisdom and were also willing to admit mystery when mystery is present in our ancient faith.

I'd like this thread to stick, as far as possible, to the writings of the early church saints who are recognised in the Catholic Church and in the Orthodox Church - both churches acknowledging them as holy men and women who taught truth as it was known in their day.

I'll start with a passage from sacred scripture and a comment from one of the fathers...................................

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I would like to ask a question.
Were there any ECFs that are not considered saints by the EOC and RCC.




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Standing Up said:

Just because you might find Genesis a parable or Jonah the same doesn't make you an unbeliever.

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Nor does it being error mean the gates of hell are prevailing.
You're right,... we have some delicate sensibilities about this, it seems.

LittleLambofJesus said:

I would like to ask a question.
Were there any ECFs that are not considered saints by the EOC and RCC.
.

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Think about it,... if they failed cannonization, they wouldn't get the CF title.

My first thought for a possible candidate would be Firmilian.

"
In a letter to Pope Sixtus II (257–58), Dionysius mentions that in the controversy over rebaptism of the lapsed Pope Stephen had refused communication with Helenus of Tarsus, Firmilian, and all Cilicia and Cappadocia, and the neighbouring lands (Eusebius, VII, v, 3-4), a subject touched on in the sole surviving letter of Firmilian, a response to Cyprian. When the baptismal controversy arose, Cyprian wished to gain support from the Eastern churches against Pope Stephen for his own decision to rebaptize all heretics who returned to the Church. At the end of the summer of 256, he sent the deacon Rogatian to Firmilian with a letter, together with the documents on the subject—letters of the pope, of his own, and of his council at Carthage in the spring, and the treatise De Ecclesia Catholica Unitate. Firmilian's existing reply was received at Carthage about the middle of November. It is a long letter, even more bitter and violent than the letter on this head of Cyprian to Pompeius. It has come down to us in a translation made, no doubt, under Cyprian's direction, and apparently very literal, as it abounds in Greek expressions (Cyprian, Epistle lxxv).
In the letter, Cyprian's arguments against Pope Stephen are reiterated and reinforced. Firmilian says: "We have received your writings as our own, and have committed them to memory by repeated reading" (c. iv). Firmilian's reasoning against the validity of heretical baptism is mainly that of Cyprian, that those who are outside the Church and have not the Holy Spirit cannot admit others to the Church or give what they do not possess: " "Very many of us meeting together in Iconium very carefully examined the matter, and we decided that every baptism was altogether to be rejected which is arranged for without the Church." Firmilian is fond of dilemmas: for instance, either the heretics do not give the Holy Ghost, in which case rebaptism is necessary, or else they do give it, in which case Stephen should not forbid the laying on of hands. Firmilian enables us to gather much of the drift of Stephen's letter to Cyprian. It is "ridiculous" that Stephen demanded nothing but the use of the Trinitarian formula. He had appealed to tradition from St. Peter and St. Paul: this is an insult to the Apostles, cries Firmilian, for they execrated heretics. Besides (this is from Cyprian, Ep. lxxiv, 2), "no one could be so silly as to believe this", for the heretics are all later than the Apostles! And Rome has not preserved the Apostolic traditions unchanged, for it differs from Jerusalem as to the observances at Easter and as to other mysteries. "I am justly indignant with Stephen's obvious and manifest silliness, that he so boasts of his position, and claims that he is the successor of St. Peter on whom were laid the foundations of the Church; yet he brings in many other rocks, and erects new buildings of many Churches when he defends with his authority the baptism conferred by heretics; for those who are baptized are without doubt numbered in the Church, and he who approves their baptism affirms that there is among them a Church of the baptized.… Stephen, who declares that he has the Chair of Peter by succession, is excited by no zeal against heretics" (c. xvii). "You have cut yourself off—do not mistake—since he is the true schismatic who makes himself an apostate from the communion of ecclesiastical unity. For in thinking that all can be excommunicated by you, you have cut off yourself alone from the communion of all" (c. xxiv).

LittleLambofJesus said:

I would like to ask a question.
Were there any ECFs that are not considered saints by the EOC and RCC.

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Actually that's an interesting question. I don't know the answer. I suspect it depends on what you consider to be a criteria for an "ECF" ... it's not exactly a conferred title afaik.

And my thoughts (no offense Rick, I was considering it before I read your response) is that most likely there ARE ECFs that were not canonized.

But I'm only very slightly acquainted with what makes one an ECF, and only know about the canonization of saints in the recent history of the Church, not the distant past, though it may be the same.

The high number of those who were martyred early on might complicate the question.

But my guess would be that there probably are ECFs that are not canonized. I'd be curious to know for sure though, so I'm not presuming to answer.

Rick Otto said:

Nor does it being error mean the gates of hell are prevailing.
You're right,... we have some delicate sensibilities about this, it seems.

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And these "delicate sensibilities"? Take on an air of verbal inquisitions for many.

Kylissa said:

Actually that's an interesting question. I don't know the answer. I suspect it depends on what you consider to be a criteria for an "ECF" ... it's not exactly a conferred title afaik.

And my thoughts (no offense Rick, I was considering it before I read your response) is that most likely there ARE ECFs that were not canonized.

But I'm only very slightly acquainted with what makes one an ECF, and only know about the canonization of saints in the recent history of the Church, not the distant past, though it may be the same.

The high number of those who were martyred early on might complicate the question.

But my guess would be that there probably are ECFs that are not canonized. I'd be curious to know for sure though, so I'm not presuming to answer.

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So then you hate me.

Rick Otto said:

So then you hate me.

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Wellll. I don't blame her. Anybody that would preach to chickens.....

Rick Otto said:

So then you hate me.

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LOL

I admit you got me before I saw the faces.

Then again ... preaching to chickens ...

I have chickens you know, but alas, I do not preach to them. I fear my chickens are heathens. But my daughter did have a pet gerbil who used to navigate his maze of tubes to stand by the front door and listen carefully every night while I read the Bible to her when she was little. Does that count?

Kylissa said:

LOL

I admit you got me before I saw the faces.

Then again ... preaching to chickens ...

I have chickens you know, but alas, I do not preach to them. I fear my chickens are heathens. But my daughter did have a pet gerbil who used to navigate his maze of tubes to stand by the front door and listen carefully every night while I read the Bible to her when she was little. Does that count?

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Rick Otto has dibs on the ONLY ECF in the Barnyard Ecumenical Church.

You ought to hear the Heavenly Hens' rendition of Amazing Grace while he gathers the cackle fruit.

AboundingGrace said:

Rick Otto has dibs on the ONLY ECF in the Barnyard Ecumenical Church.

You ought to hear the Heavenly Hens' rendition of Amazing Grace while he gathers the cackle fruit.

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Maybe my girls need preaching then. What I hear gathering eggs sounds more like they are cussing me out. Complete with stink-eye!

Rick Otto said:

Nor does it being error mean the gates of hell are prevailing.
You're right,... we have some delicate sensibilities about this, it seems.

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Yeah, let's hope that one has been put astern.

Folks seem to think if their denomination (RC, EO, OO, P, A) got something wrong, then the gates of hell prevailed somehow.

Kylissa said:

LOL

I admit you got me before I saw the faces.

Then again ... preaching to chickens ...

I have chickens you know, but alas, I do not preach to them. I fear my chickens are heathens. But my daughter did have a pet gerbil who used to navigate his maze of tubes to stand by the front door and listen carefully every night while I read the Bible to her when she was little. Does that count?

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When the gerbil was little?

LittleLambofJesus said:

I would like to ask a question.
Were there any ECFs that are not considered saints by the EOC and RCC.




.

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Origen and Tertullian come quickly to mind. Even though Tertullian penned first references/understanding to Trinity, his exploding of the ever-virgin myth just didn't sit right with some. That, and his calling out of Rome for usurping what was given to Peter alone.

Standing Up said:

When the gerbil was little?

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LOL

The gerbil remained so (thankfully!). But of course I was speaking of when my daughter was small.

Standing Up said:

Yeah, let's hope that one has been put astern.

Folks seem to think if their denomination (RC, EO, OO, P, A) got something wrong, then the gates of hell prevailed somehow.

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I think this is an oversimplification.

The concern (within the EO at least afaik) has more to do with whether the COUNCILS were correctly guided.

And if they weren't ... how do we know Scripture is Scripture? How do we know God is Trinity? How can we affirm the Nicene Creed?

Those larger questions are the issue. Not whether one crosses oneself from right to left or from left to right, or I suppose at all.

I just got the book I ordered of the ECF and must go to the post to pick it up!! I'll be an expert in no time whatsoever!!!

~Cassia~ said:

I just got the book I ordered of the ECF and must go to the post to pick it up!! I'll be an expert in no time whatsoever!!!

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That's cool! Which one did you decide upon?