OSASers choose to reject Jesus’ warnings about losing salvation!

OzSpen said:

Hillsage,

Let's wait for a response. While we wait for a view on how people went to Paradise in the OT, which is another way of asking, 'How did people become believers in the OT era to receive eternal life?'

Here's a question for you: In which era was Nicodemus living (John 3:1-15)? What was Jesus' requirement of Nicodemus regarding eternal life? Was it any different for any other person in the OT era?

Just thinking'

Oz

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16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

Context: Abraham's Bosom -

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. 19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. Luke 16:16-19


JLB

JLB777 said:

16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

Context: Abraham's Bosom -

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. 19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. Luke 16:16-19

JLB

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JLB,

And what is the point you are making?

Oz

OzSpen said:

JLB,

And what is the point you are making?

Oz

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Here's a question for you: In which era was Nicodemus living (John 3:1-15)? What was Jesus' requirement of Nicodemus regarding eternal life? Was it any different for any other person in the OT era?

Just thinking'

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What was Jesus' requirement of Nicodemus regarding eternal life?


Answer: The same as Abraham: Relationship with God. ie; Faith


JLB

OzSpen said:

If salvation in the OT was on the basis, 'You know the commandments, do them', then salvation was by works. That is not the message of OT and NT.

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Jesus' red words above, not mine. So if you have a problem, shouldn't it be with your theology? And wasn't the fact we could never do 'the works of the law' the very reason we needed Jesus? That was the reality of the OT, and the gospel of the OT wasn't 'go to heaven' it was a 'Messiah was coming'. And not to go to heaven, but to overcome the kingdom of this world and reveal His. But the Jews, not even aware of a heaven in the hereafter still thought the Messiah would only overthrow this earthly government of man.

For Moses, he differentiated between 2 groups even within Israel. They were:

(1) Those with a resistant, stubborn heart that were referred to as 'stiff-necked' (see Deut Ex 32:9; 33:3-5; 34:9; Deut 9:6, 13; 29:19-20; Ezek 2:4), and

(2) Those who had a circumcised heart who loved God from their heart and soul (e.g. Deut 30:6; Jer 31:33).

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As yous said, there were true Jews and true Israelites...representing two covenants of the God of Abraham and Issac.

But what about the God of Jacob? What's the significance of this 'God of three'? Could the OT shadow, be symbolic of the salvation of three? Spirit and soul and body or total man? Just thinking here with those questions.

Keeping the commandments is what we do BECAUSE we have been saved, and NOT IN ORDER TO BE SAVED.

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Not for me, The salvation of my spirit was through no works but His. The salvation I am 'working out with fear and trebling', along with progress and backsliding associated with it, is the salvation of my soul. That's why I'm thankful that the soul salvation is only for eternal rewards in the hereafter kingdom as well as temporal rewards in the here and now kingdom. The death bed confessor will not receive as 'glorified/saved' body in the hereafter, as one who worked out much more of their soul's salvation here and now. Like I said before, in the faith/of the faith...Christ in you/You in Christ....imputed/imparted righteousness...all apply to two salvations. One for your spirit and one for your soul.

OSAS/Calvinism/spirit and saved, unsaved/Armenianism/soul. Both group's salvation views are 1/2 right and 1/2 wrong. But seen together makes more of a 'whole truth' concerning the salvation of a triune man.

OzSpen said:

How, then, do you deal with Hebrews 11:20, 'By faith Isaac invoked future blessings on Jacob and Esau' (ESV)?

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Gen 27:26-40 according to my study bible connects ...

Esau's blessing gen 27:34-41 ...

Jacob's blessing ... Gen 27:1-33

Esau basically got the crumbs off the table

JLB777 said:

16 The law and the prophets were until John. Since that time the kingdom of God has been preached, and everyone is pressing into it.

Context: Abraham's Bosom -

17 And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass away than for one tittle of the law to fail. 18 Whoever divorces his wife and marries another commits adultery; and whoever marries her who is divorced from her husband commits adultery. 19 "There was a certain rich man who was clothed in purple and fine linen and fared sumptuously every day. Luke 16:16-19

JLB

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A good point I think. For me it raises the question; How did God's reign/kingdom change, in regards to men throughout the ages of pre, during and post, the Law of Moses? Abraham would have been killed for things he did, if the law of Moses had been his standard before God.

And it would appear that John and Jesus were both part of a transition phase for 3-4 years (don't know how long John ministered before Jesus' ministry started). Did the 'rules' also change for those few years? I don't think so, but who knows?

John 1:17

Hillsage,

You have too much of what appears to be your own theorising here. I'll stick with what Jesus said to the rich young ruler who lived in the OT era:
Oz

Hillsage said:

Jesus' red words above, not mine. So if you have a problem, shouldn't it be with your theology? And wasn't the fact we could never do 'the works of the law' the very reason we needed Jesus? That was the reality of the OT, and the gospel of the OT wasn't 'go to heaven' it was a 'Messiah was coming'. And not to go to heaven, but to overcome the kingdom of this world and reveal His. But the Jews, not even aware of a heaven in the hereafter still thought the Messiah would only overthrow this earthly government of man.

As yous said, there were true Jews and true Israelites...representing two covenants of the God of Abraham and Issac.

But what about the God of Jacob? What's the significance of this 'God of three'? Could the OT shadow, be symbolic of the salvation of three? Spirit and soul and body or total man? Just thinking here with those questions.

Not for me, The salvation of my spirit was through no works but His. The salvation I am 'working out with fear and trebling', along with progress and backsliding associated with it, is the salvation of my soul. That's why I'm thankful that the soul salvation is only for eternal rewards in the hereafter kingdom as well as temporal rewards in the here and now kingdom. The death bed confessor will not receive as 'glorified/saved' body in the hereafter, as one who worked out much more of their soul's salvation here and now. Like I said before, in the faith/of the faith...Christ in you/You in Christ....imputed/imparted righteousness...all apply to two salvations. One for your spirit and one for your soul.

OSAS/Calvinism/spirit and saved, unsaved/Armenianism/soul. Both group's salvation views are 1/2 right and 1/2 wrong. But seen together makes more of a 'whole truth' concerning the salvation of a triune man.

Click to expand...

OzSPen
You have too much of what appears to be your own theorisinghere. I'll stick with what Jesus said to the rich young ruler who lived in the OT era:

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Then you should read what Jesus said with less bias and more of the Spirit's leading, since He inspired the words. You asked about "salvation" which Jesus and I answered, according to your belief that salvation is 'eternal life' or going to heaven. Then Jesus next talks about this rich ruler having treasure in heaven (when he gets there). Does that ring a bell concerning something....someone...said here about works being done AFTER you're saved to provide REWARDS/TREASURES in heaven? That even sounds like a popular song a while back about sending lumber ahead...remember it?

Because, if your theorizing is, we only need to sell all we have to get to heaven, then I think I'll stick with my theorizing.

Mark 10:17-27English Standard Version (ESV)

The Rich Young Man

17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?” 27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”

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Hillsage said:

Then you should read what Jesus said with less bias and more of the Spirit's leading, since He inspired the words. You asked about "salvation" which Jesus and I answered, according to your belief that salvation is 'eternal life' or going to heaven. Then Jesus next talks about this rich ruler having treasure in heaven (when he gets there). Does that ring a bell concerning something....someone...said here about works being done AFTER you're saved to provide REWARDS/TREASURES in heaven? That even sounds like a popular song a while back about sending lumber ahead...remember it?

Because, if your theorizing is, we only need to sell all we have to get to heaven, then I think I'll stick with my theorizing.

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So are you accusing me of not having the Spirit's leading and thus having 'bias' but you have the Spirit's leading. If you flame any more like that, I will not be responding.

Law verse.... 1 John 5:11-14

Bro in Christ said:

Law verse.... 1 John 5:11-14

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I do wish you would learn to converse with people on this thread. Were these verses directed at me or someone else? I do wish you would backquote.

Oz

OzSpen said:

Hillsage,

You have too much of what appears to be your own theorising here. I'll stick with what Jesus said to the rich young ruler who lived in the OT era:

Mark 10:17-27English Standard Version (ESV)

The Rich Young Man

17 And as he was setting out on his journey, a man ran up and knelt before him and asked him, “Good Teacher, what must I do to inherit eternal life?” 18 And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone. 19 You know the commandments: ‘Do not murder, Do not commit adultery, Do not steal, Do not bear false witness, Do not defraud, Honor your father and mother.’” 20 And he said to him, “Teacher, all these I have kept from my youth.” 21 And Jesus, looking at him, loved him, and said to him, “You lack one thing: go, sell all that you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow me.” 22 Disheartened by the saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.
23 And Jesus looked around and said to his disciples, “How difficult it will be for those who have wealth to enter the kingdom of God!” 24 And the disciples were amazed at his words. But Jesus said to them again, “Children, how difficult it is to enter the kingdom of God! 25 It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich person to enter the kingdom of God.” 26 And they were exceedingly astonished, and said to him, “Then who can be saved?” 27 Jesus looked at them and said, “With man it is impossible, but not with God. For all things are possible with God.”
​

Oz

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1 John 5-11-14

Bro in Christ said:

1 John 5-11-14

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What is the conversation you want to have about these verses?

Oz

Matt 10:17-27 are law verses

1 John 5:11-14 grace verses

Bro in Christ said:

Matt 10:17-27 are law verses

1 John 5:11-14 grace verses

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Matt 10:23, for the rich young man, was an invitation of grace, 'come, follow me'. This is parallel to that of the Jew who is one inwardly with a circumcision of the heart, by the Spirit (Rom 2:29).

This is the grace that resembles the OT language where God declared that He dwells with the person who 'is of a contrite and lowly spirit, to revive the spirit of the lowly and to revive the heart of the contrite' (Isa 57:15). Here, the Hebrew verb 'to revive' means 'to cause to live'.

In Ezek 11:19-20 and 36:25-26 God's promise is to replace a heart of stone with a heart of flesh - a new heart. Why? So 'that they may walk in my statutes and keep my rules and obey them'. This obedience to God comes from a heart of flesh, graciously given by God. This is OT grace to the unbeliever.

God's gracious salvation is inferential in the OT, but it also presents as His grace to the undeserving. Progressive revelation in the NT reveals more of God's gracious provision.

Oz

OzSpen said:

Not true, according to the context of Hebrews 11:1-2, 'Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation' (ESV).

Hebrews 11 is talking about faith that saves, faith that 'is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen'.



If you want to see faith in action, go to the Book of James.

However, it is true that Esau did not make it to the line of eternal faith, as Heb 12:15-17 affirms:

15 See to it that no one fails to obtain the grace of God; that no “root of bitterness” springs up and causes trouble, and by it many become defiled; 16 that no one is sexually immoral or unholy like Esau, who sold his birthright for a single meal. 17 For you know that afterward, when he desired to inherit the blessing, he was rejected, for he found no chance to repent, though he sought it with tears (ESV).

​

Oz

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I hope you realize you just contradicted yourself here. And is precisely the point I was trying to make.

AndOne said:

I hope you realize you just contradicted yourself here. And is precisely the point I was trying to make.

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So is Heb 11:1-2 not talking about saving faith when it states, 'Hebrews 11:1-2, 'Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the people of old received their commendation' (ESV)?

Present tense salvation